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Post by Bioware-Critic on Dec 4, 2016 3:04:11 GMT
Maybe, but the UI didn't seem to be "under construction", looked rather close to a final build to me. I mostly agree, but the mapping of powers is weird for a controller. The triggers are usually better for shooting, not using powers. I don't see why they wouldn't just say no if they're not working on it in some way. It's way better to tell this sooner then later. Yes. And I also thought they would copy stuff from DA:I for ME:A that would actually work there. Like 8 skills (for console) would be enough for ME. And the tac-cam would be a no-brainer! But I did not see a tac-cam. And I kinda feel there will be none
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 4, 2016 3:06:47 GMT
I mostly agree, but the mapping of powers is weird for a controller. The triggers are usually better for shooting, not using powers. I don't see why they wouldn't just say no if they're not working on it in some way. It's way better to tell this sooner then later. Yes. And I also thought they would copy stuff from DA:I for ME:A that would actually work there. Like 8 skills (for console) would be enough for ME. And the tac-cam would be a no-brainer! But I did not see a tac-cam. And I kinda feel there will be none I never thought they'd have gone for the tac cam in MEA, given the series was always more action oriented then DA. And given they already said powers can't be used on pause, it's obvious it's not there.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 4, 2016 3:08:25 GMT
I don't think this it because of console ports though. Both DA and ME, before DAI, always had the option to use all the powers you unlocked through the pause wheel. There was no limitation. Both DAI and MEA still have the wheel, so if they wanted they could easily put the powers there to match the Hotkeys on PC. As I said for DAI, if they went for limiting the powers to the mappable ones, it's more likely for unifying the SP and MP gameplay then console ports. I don't really disagree, but shitty console ports are a problem that has many expressions. The inability to take advantage on the options offered by KB+M is a problem that appears rather frequently. I agree on this. I just meant that the powers/talents were never a problem for the porting since their games always had the feature to use every skill you gained with the wheel.
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Post by Bioware-Critic on Dec 4, 2016 3:08:40 GMT
Personally I play on PC, so this is an even larger concern. The inability to map powers is a hallmark of shitty console ports. I don't think this it because of console ports though. Both DA and ME, before DAI, always had the option to use all the powers you unlocked through the pause wheel. There was no limitation. Both DAI and MEA still have the wheel, so if they wanted they could easily put the powers there to match the Hotkeys on PC. As I said for DAI, if they went for limiting the powers to the mappable ones, it's more likely for unifying the SP and MP gameplay then console ports. Kudos! It is about casuals and younger people who did not grow up with more traditional RPG's. But first and foremost CASUALS. They want to draw people in from many different angles, to try out their games. So they streamline everything - which they think is an idea that works in reality - BUT DOESN'T! It just makes games ten times more stupid than they have to be.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 4, 2016 3:12:39 GMT
I never thought they'd have gone for the tac cam in MEA, given the series was always more action oriented then DA. And given they already said powers can't be used on pause, it's obvious it's not there. Not being able to use powers from pause menu makes it seems more likely to me that the 3 abilities we saw are all there is to see. I really hope I'm wrong. It depends. DAI was kind in the middle since there is the tac cam, but it was still limited to those you can map on the controller, and they actually improved on that compared to DAO and DA2. That's why people after the reveal of the lack of power usage on pause thought they went to the DAI route and map 6-8 powers. I hope as well our concerns will vanish once they reveal how it works.
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Post by Bioware-Critic on Dec 4, 2016 3:12:54 GMT
I never thought they'd have gone for the tac cam in MEA, given the series was always more action oriented then DA. And given they already said powers can't be used on pause, it's obvious it's not there. Hm. But they said that just recetly, in PR. But I thought that they would copy that stuff when DA:I came out, you know? I immediately thought this was a fit. Because we never could control the squad in ME. That was always missing. And the new engine could make that happen ...
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 4, 2016 3:14:20 GMT
I never thought they'd have gone for the tac cam in MEA, given the series was always more action oriented then DA. And given they already said powers can't be used on pause, it's obvious it's not there. Hm. But they said that just recetly, in PR. But I thought that they would copy that stuff when DA:I came out, you know? I immideately thought this was a fit. Because we never could control the squad in ME. That was always missing. And the new engine could make that happen ... They said they were thinking of implementing the tac cam in MEA?
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Post by Bioware-Critic on Dec 4, 2016 3:17:42 GMT
Hm. But they said that just recetly, in PR. But I thought that they would copy that stuff when DA:I came out, you know? I immideately thought this was a fit. Because we never could control the squad in ME. That was always missing. And the new engine could make that happen ... They said they were thinking of implementing the tac cam in MEA? LOL! No you missunderstood me there. I just wanted to agree to you They just recently said in PR ... that they do not want people to use powers from the pause screen. Combat should be more fluid ... (which is PR BS for we will streamline ) So powers from the radial menu are out ...
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 4, 2016 3:19:35 GMT
They said they were thinking of implementing the tac cam in MEA? LOL! No you missunderstood me there. They just recently said in PR that they do not want people to use powers from the pause screen. Combat should be more fluid ... (which is PR BS for we will streamline ) So powers from the radial menu are out ... Ah, understood. Yeah, I know that. That was what I meant in my previous post. Hopefully it didn't lead to a limitation of powers at 3.
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Post by Mad Cassidy on Dec 4, 2016 5:51:30 GMT
Ugh... we had better not be limited to 3 active powers. That's fine for a 15 minute MP session, but it's inadequate for an SP campaign where I'm supposed to feel like I'm building my own character who progresses and gains new features throughout the course of the game. I really don't want to find myself in a position where I have to select different powers before each mission, and then lose access to the rest for the duration. That kind of thing leads to boring, repetitive gameplay that emphasizes specialization over diversification. I want to be able to use abilities based on context, and not lament that I made the 'wrong' choice when arbitrarily assigning hotkeys, or that I wasted points by not putting them towards my 3 most commonly used abilities.
Separating ammo powers from other abilities is a good move. Those always felt like a waste of points to me.
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Post by pdusen on Dec 4, 2016 5:52:46 GMT
Even if we are limited to 3 powers, that really doesn't mean anything. You can't take one aspect of an entire combat system and judge it in a vacuum.
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Post by RoboticWater on Dec 4, 2016 6:26:19 GMT
Even if we are limited to 3 powers, that really doesn't mean anything. You can't take one aspect of an entire combat system and judge it in a vacuum. True, but one would hope that the void left by the rest of the powers would be filled with something else. I doubt the limit is for balancing purposes, because Mass Effect's powers are fairly self-balancing, i.e. they're usually just extra DPS or damage reduction with a few specific functions rather than utility powers with multiple uses. From the gameplay so far, it doesn't seem like Andromeda's powers are exceptionally different. I could be wrong; the clips weren't very long and we don't know how these powers evolve over time, so there's plenty room for improvement. I hope I'm wrong too, because I think Mass Effect would benefit from having a limited selection of more complex abilities. However, it's not like you couldn't try to balance more complex powers with the pause menu. The bottom line is that it's a blatant limitation that could severely impair the game's accessibility and simply doesn't scale well. A pause menu could theoretically grow infinitely large, allowing users access to any number of powers and tactical options. What can 2 buttons do? At most, 4 things, one of which is be off. What if BioWare wanted to expand the squad control tactics in the future? They'd essentially have to reinstate the old system then move from there. This isn't to say that Andromeda ultimately can't or won't be fun, but it seems BioWare pointlessly threw out a system that was clearly superior.
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Post by fenris on Dec 4, 2016 7:07:44 GMT
So far as I know, the mapping is limited because of multiplayer. Because controllers have a very limited number of key bindings, you must limit the computer users as well IF you intend multiplayer to be cross-platform. Otherwise computer users will have an advantage over their console multiplayer counterparts.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 4, 2016 7:11:32 GMT
I am going to reserve my judgement until we know more for I don't see the benefit making conclusions based on a five minute video that barely stayed on one aspect of the game for more then a minute. We have never had a lot of abilities in Mass Effect, I was just replaying Mass Effect 1 on the PC today and it only has eight slots for skills and Dragon Age: Inquisition has eight as well, plus an additional three for consumables. Mass Effect 3 also had eight abilities for multiplayer as well, the difference was that four of them were dedicated to being the consumable items which weren't available in single player.
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Post by 10k on Dec 4, 2016 7:35:35 GMT
The limiting of powers in Inquisition was annoying, but here in Andromeda I think I can see it working. Both in ME2 and 3 I personally only used up to 2 powers with Vanguard. Charge and shockwave. I would also use pull every so often, but 2 powers was enough for me. The previous games didn't have the wide range of powers like in Inquisition. Every class had about three main powers anyway. Plus it seems weapon ammo types are going back into the mod category, and are limited within combat, we see this in the gameplay trailer. The only classes I'd say this may hurt is the Sentinel, and Engineer classes because they are the only classes with actual variety of abilities, but because there are no classes this may not be a huge problem. The only worries I have is no squadmate commands and AI will be doing the majority of work for your companions. But let's really look at the classes from the previous games and see if we can simplify them using only three abilities. Soldier Main abilities: Adrenaline rush, concussive shot, and frag grenade. Their other abilities consist of ammo powers which are now weapon mods in Andromeda. Vanguard main abilities: Charge, Nova, and shockwave or pull (player's preference) Adept main abilities: Singularity, warp, throw or pull (player's preference) Infiltrator main abilities: Tactical cloak, sticky grenade, incinerate or sabotage (player preference) Engineer main abilities: Overload, sabotage, combat drone or sentry turret (player's preference) Engineer, like sentinel would be a little more harder to simplify because they are a power based class with more unique abilities like the ones I left out; Incinerate and Cryo blast. Sentinel main abilities: Tech armor, warp, and throw. Sentinel is way to hard to simplify. They have both biotic and tech abilities and 3 power slots for them is meaningless. I'm sorry to those who'd like to play a true Sentinel build in Andromeda, I can't see it with only three abilities at one time I would think this 3 power limitation is due to the fact there is not a class system in Andromeda. If players could pick as many abilities as we had in the previous games, with all powers available to them, I don't think they could balance gameplay. God like builds could be created easy with access to all powers. This is one reason why I personally think they should have kept classes. But the community didn't want classes so BW went that route and needed a way to balance gameplay, without restricting powers the player could pick and this is what I think they ultimately came up with. You can chose any power, but only pick three to use at one time. Well on the good side, we can say BW listened to the community
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Post by General Aetius on Dec 4, 2016 7:42:08 GMT
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Post by fenris on Dec 4, 2016 8:46:53 GMT
Infiltrator main abilities: Tactical cloak, sticky grenade, incinerate or sabotage (player preference) What's this "or" thingy? I always play infiltrator and use both sabotage and incinerate A LOT, and often at the same time (i.e. one right after the other).
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Post by 10k on Dec 4, 2016 9:50:44 GMT
What's this "or" thingy? I always play infiltrator and use both sabotage and incinerate A LOT, and often at the same time (i.e. one right after the other). I was generalizing for each class in Andromeda because we only can have 3 abilities. You could go Tactical cloak, incinerate, and sabotage. This isn't me explaining how classes should be played or how people play them. This was me picking three skills that people could choose for the classes in Andromeda.
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Post by fenris on Dec 4, 2016 9:58:15 GMT
Well I hope they allow at least 4-5, maybe even 8 like in DA:I
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Post by javeart on Dec 4, 2016 12:16:21 GMT
Ugh... we had better not be limited to 3 active powers. That's fine for a 15 minute MP session, but it's inadequate for an SP campaign where I'm supposed to feel like I'm building my own character who progresses and gains new features throughout the course of the game. I really don't want to find myself in a position where I have to select different powers before each mission, and then lose access to the rest for the duration. That kind of thing leads to boring, repetitive gameplay that emphasizes specialization over diversification. I want to be able to use abilities based on context, and not lament that I made the 'wrong' choice when arbitrarily assigning hotkeys, or that I wasted points by not putting them towards my 3 most commonly used abilities. Separating ammo powers from other abilities is a good move. Those always felt like a waste of points to me. Personally, I think I think the bolded part it's interesting in a game, the possibiliity that you make a wrong choice when you pick a power means that you have to think maybe more carefully which abilities you need to use, tthat's fun for me. I'm not saying that it has to be fun for everyone, of course, but it's not bad for everyone either. And personally, it wouldn't be as fun if I was limitng myself, so I could do that and the rest could still use their 8 powers, because it's the fact that your're actually punished for making bad choices what makes it more fun for me. It's like when you have the chance of making a bad build for yur character as opposed to have a character that simply ends up having every ability and possible upgrade. I like having to make choices, as in being forced to make choices. Also, for me it doesn't feel like it's going to be repetitive at all if you can respec between missions and maybe active different powers during missions too, there's a chance we will be able to try lots of different combinations. Loosing the chance of using any power at any time doesn't mean you have to use the same power every time. I get why other people don't like iit, and I'm probably in a very tiny minority , but there's different tastes for everything.
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Post by Bioware-Critic on Dec 4, 2016 13:09:13 GMT
Even if we are limited to 3 powers, that really doesn't mean anything. You can't take one aspect of an entire combat system and judge it in a vacuum. Fans who have played houndreds or even thousands of hours in 3 Mass Effect Games ...... CAN! I agree with you that there is much more to it. And that the new changes will have "weight" too. Of course. But that is another story. But cutting out beloved mechanics and stuff that is just great and fans wished for years to be expanded and throw it out the window ... ... to favor the multiplayer - IN A SINGLE PLAYER RPG GAMING SERIES ??!?! !R"$%U"$%/ ... Not funny!(Edit: ... well of course nobody needs a certain amount of hours to judge this. You just need to look at it and understand it ...)
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Post by kumazan on Dec 4, 2016 14:10:59 GMT
So they offer you more flexibility by making a classless system where you are free to spec your Ryder as you wish and without restriction, then they take your reach freedom to use those powers by senselessly restricting the amount of active powers you can have at any moment? Seems very counterintuitive.
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Post by pdusen on Dec 4, 2016 18:48:12 GMT
Even if we are limited to 3 powers, that really doesn't mean anything. You can't take one aspect of an entire combat system and judge it in a vacuum. Raising concerns over an aspect of gameplay means "judging it in a vacuum"? So according to your logic, I'm assuming you buy every video game you hear about, just because you can't judge particular aspects in a vacuum, and can only tell if you don't like the game after you played it in its entirety? The ME franchise is a cross between TPS and RPG mechanics, raising concerns over RPG mechanics seemingly stripped down, especially due to a clear present and unfortunate theme when it comes to this specific area, is hardly a "vacuum". Yes, looking at one feature without the context of how the whole system around it works is the definition of looking at it in a vacuum. None of what you said is material to the issue at all. And since you asked, I only buy games outright if the developer has a good track record. Otherwise, I wait for an informed opinion from various sources whose tastes align with mine and have actually played the game before I buy anything.
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Post by Bioware-Critic on Dec 4, 2016 19:01:50 GMT
So they offer you more flexibility by making a classless system where you are free to spec your Ryder as you wish and without restriction, then they take your reach freedom to use those powers by senselessly restricting the amount of active powers you can have at any moment? Seems very counterintuitive. ... hence the uproar
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 4, 2016 19:05:49 GMT
Ye, I noticed that too. And while I agree that ME never was about having heaps of active powers at the same time in our "skill bar", 3 seems a bit restrictive. In DAI that tiny skill bar was what kept me out of the game for follow up playthrougs. I would think that a limited number of powers active at the same time would diversify builds not limit them. Granted 3 powers is too little, but wasn't always the number of powers you could map on consoles anyway? Even on PC, you could only map 10 powers in ME (and you often didn't even have that many powers anyway) so I honestly don't see how this is suddenly an issue in the ME series.
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