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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 5, 2016 13:55:51 GMT
While it's true we don't have the whole story yet, what we're seeing seems to have some issues. First off, "temp" ammo? Ammo applies only a limited number of shots? That is... extremely dumb. Even dumber than ammo as powers. We've gone from ammo as a mod (makes sense) to ammo as little buttons you press on your gun, except if you're the wrong class you're literally too stupid to press some different buttons to get a new effect. Then we have ME3MP with ammo as "consumable" for one mission, which is ok, it kind of harkens back to the mod concept, except disposable. And now this.
I also find it odd they said there'd be no power wheel, except there is still a powerwheel, only it's just for guns and "temp" ammo? PC Master Race here, no idea what teh wheel was ever about, but were weapons on the wheel before? Either way, this wheel seems like a giant waste of space if all you have are two guns and two powers on it (I also wonder if two guns are hard limited like MP?). Assuming they wouldn't design an useless elaborate UI for four items, what will the other slots be for? Powers? (might as well, since you already went back on the no wheel thing.) More "temp" ammo?
As to the active powers thing, yeah three seems incredibly limiting, to the point where it throws the classless thing out the window. Remember how they said, you can pick whatever powers but you get set bonuses if you pick enough powers that gets you old classfications (like pick enough biotics and you get adept set bonus)? How would that work with only three powers? If you pick a biotic power and a tech power at random are you automatically a sentinel? With only three powers what would it take to classify as infiltrator, tactical cloak? So if I do warp, overload, tac cloak, what am I? Or to mess with it even more, biotic charge, overload, tac cloak?
I suppose it wouldn't be the worst if you did somethign similar to the first [Prototype]. They had a "wheel" too, and you had powers broken down into defensive, offensive, scanning and misc I guess, with one "active" power mapped to the arrow keys. You used the keys to quickly use those powers but could also pull up the wheel and activate (and map) new powers anytime. Of course Prototype's powers were more effects you applied as you shapeshifted into whatever to get the job done but still. If you have three "active slots" and three categories of powers on the wheel and you map one of each but can still change on the fly, it might not be the end of the world. No idea how that'd translate to PC though...
That doesn't seem to be what's happening here, but they could also be obscuring that (not sure why) and saving the big wheel redesign reveal for another time.
Or it could be exactly what it looks like in which case... the fuck? Maybe it's still fun, but I'm scratching my head over here.
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revanshep78
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Thekook78
PSN: RevanKook78
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Post by revanshep78 on Dec 5, 2016 13:57:43 GMT
While I am in a wait and see pattern regarding the powers this is concerning to me. I've looked past plot holes, accepted the fact we need to leave the Milky Way because of the ending, and lore retcons/solutions.
I primarily play "caster" classes in ME and I thoroughly enjoyed the powers system in ME3. If, and I'm saying if, because we don't know right now, we are in fact limited to 3 active powers my interest in this game will have waned even more. Hopefully, Bioware will be able to show more of the battle system/gameplay to allay our concerns.
Based on the lack of information we've been hearing regarding these critical factors I wonder if the release window will in fact get pushed to May.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Dec 5, 2016 14:17:07 GMT
Good design and engineering is not determined by what can be added to the design, but rather what cannot be removed anymore, #lessismore Not as a rule, and not in an entertainment medium like video games. Do you remember that extremely popular game Skyrim? Fallout 4? Many others that offer unending options? This is stripping down the last of the RPG-style character progression from ME so it would appeal more to pure shooter fans, not surprising mind you, but unfortunate nonetheless. QFT It didn't work in DAI and I highly doubt it will work here. |
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Post by pdusen on Dec 5, 2016 14:17:52 GMT
... I'm not responding to your further assertions (such as this one that I'm replying to) because my original assertion still applies: that there's not enough information yet for me to draw the types of conclusions that you're drawing. I'm not sure what you'd expect me to add to that. I can't force you to respond obviously, I'm just saying that this aspect is self-contained and is worthy of consideration on itself. Other aspects of the game can't really change this fact one way or the other. Well, even if the ability limit is as low as it seems (which we don't know for a fact yet), I maintain that whether or not that's a problem really does depend on how the rest of the system works. Even for traditionally ability-heavy character classes, there's no guarantee that the particular powers available in this game, and the situations in which they're useful in this game, would ever call for more abilities than they're allowing. |
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The Elder King
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 5, 2016 14:22:14 GMT
While it's true we don't have the whole story yet, what we're seeing seems to have some issues. First off, "temp" ammo? Ammo applies only a limited number of shots? That is... extremely dumb. Even dumber than ammo as powers. We've gone from ammo as a mod (makes sense) to ammo as little buttons you press on your gun, except if you're the wrong class you're literally too stupid to press some different buttons to get a new effect. Then we have ME3MP with ammo as "consumable" for one mission, which is ok, it kind of harkens back to the mod concept, except disposable. And now this. I also find it odd they said there'd be no power wheel, except there is still a powerwheel, only it's just for guns and "temp" ammo? PC Master Race here, no idea what teh wheel was ever about, but were weapons on the wheel before? Either way, this wheel seems like a giant waste of space if all you have are two guns and two powers on it (I also wonder if two guns are hard limited like MP?). Assuming they wouldn't design an useless elaborate UI for four items, what will the other slots be for? Powers? (might as well, since you already went back on the no wheel thing.) More "temp" ammo? As to the active powers thing, yeah three seems incredibly limiting, to the point where it throws the classless thing out the window. Remember how they said, you can pick whatever powers but you get set bonuses if you pick enough powers that gets you old classfications (like pick enough biotics and you get adept set bonus)? How would that work with only three powers? If you pick a biotic power and a tech power at random are you automatically a sentinel? With only three powers what would it take to classify as infiltrator, tactical cloak? So if I do warp, overload, tac cloak, what am I? Or to mess with it even more, biotic charge, overload, tac cloak? I suppose it wouldn't be the worst if you did somethign similar to the first [Prototype]. They had a "wheel" too, and you had powers broken down into defensive, offensive, scanning and misc I guess, with one "active" power mapped to the arrow keys. You used the keys to quickly use those powers but could also pull up the wheel and activate (and map) new powers anytime. Of course Prototype's powers were more effects you applied as you shapeshifted into whatever to get the job done but still. If you have three "active slots" and three categories of powers on the wheel and you map one of each but can still change on the fly, it might not be the end of the world. No idea how that'd translate to PC though... That doesn't seem to be what's happening here, but they could also be obscuring that (not sure why) and saving the big wheel redesign reveal for another time. Or it could be exactly what it looks like in which case... the fuck? Maybe it's still fun, but I'm scratching my head over here. With the wheel in the trilogy you could use all your powers, switch weapons, and use your teammate powers. The reason is still there even without using powers with it is that they can't map every function on the controller. It is weird though, as it was in DAI, because the wheel is present in both games and I doubt it'd take much work to put the powers on it as well. It's likely a reason to unify the two game modes. For the classless system, mixed class profiles would be unlocked, I guess, by having some powers of two of the three branches, not necessarily their signature powers. I guess passive abilities might count for the profile unlocking, but it gets weird for the Explore one where it seems you have to pick abilities from all three branches. That, along with them not outright confirming we only have three powers, makes me think they're still working on the system in some way. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 5, 2016 15:53:39 GMT
For the classless system, mixed class profiles would be unlocked, I guess, by having some powers of two of the three branches, not necessarily their signature powers. I guess passive abilities might count for the profile unlocking, but it gets weird for the Explore one where it seems you have to pick abilities from all three branches. That, along with them not outright confirming we only have three powers, makes me think they're still working on the system in some way. Yeah but what does that mean though? Unlocking powers outside the three active powers we have on any one mission? In that case couldn't you "unlock" all of them and have one giant pool from which you can only choose three for any time you go out? If you're limited twice i.e. you can only unlock x of y powers and you can only take 3 of x powers on any one mission, that'd be even lamer than I thought. |
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The Elder King
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 5, 2016 15:59:21 GMT
For the classless system, mixed class profiles would be unlocked, I guess, by having some powers of two of the three branches, not necessarily their signature powers. I guess passive abilities might count for the profile unlocking, but it gets weird for the Explore one where it seems you have to pick abilities from all three branches. That, along with them not outright confirming we only have three powers, makes me think they're still working on the system in some way. Yeah but what does that mean though? Unlocking powers outside the three active powers we have on any one mission? In that case couldn't you "unlock" all of them and have one giant pool from which you can only choose three for any time you go out? If you're limited twice i.e. you can only unlock x of y powers and you can only take 3 of x powers on any one mission, that'd be even lamer than I thought. I think it might work like this: you have 30 skills, both active and passive. 10 military, 10 tech, 10 biotic. You can pick, let's say, 15. When you reach a certain number of skills unlocked, you can unlock a profile based on how many numbers of powers you picked from the three branches. I think that regardless if we'll be limited to 3, 6 or whatever number, we won't be able to map every power we picked, although they might count for the profile unlocking. It looks certainly confusing, so I hope we'll get more info soon. |
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 5, 2016 16:36:26 GMT
Good design and engineering is not determined by what can be added to the design, but rather what cannot be removed anymore, #lessismore Not as a rule, and not in an entertainment medium like video games. Do you remember that extremely popular game Skyrim? Fallout 4? Many others that offer unending options? This is stripping down the last of the RPG-style character progression from ME so it would appeal more to pure shooter fans, not surprising mind you, but unfortunate nonetheless. It has been stripped down since ME2, hasn't it? And it works perfectly fine in Mass Effect, that's why they are probably sticking to it. I hear you'll be able to exchange powers on the SP character - so that is some added progression if you want it. |
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 16:53:14 GMT
I did some digging on the gameplay trailer and took screen shots of all the skills that were present. Some are very similar to ME3 icons for skills, some not. Here they are: Well, I can pretty clearly make out "Flee in 3 Directions", "Karate Chop to the Throat" and "Ryder Jumps Rope". The rest are old powers, or still a mystery. Also, this is awesome. Thanks for these pics.  |
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 17:06:40 GMT
I have used arguments that make sense and I haven't dismissed anything. It appears as though you're just here to try and form an echochamber and are not really interested in what anyone else has to say. Apologies for intruding. No you didn't, you used personal experience to explain why the concern is supposedly not valid. Is your personal experience more valid than mine? As I mentioned, some of the concerns are objective and not dependent on personal taste: "Caster" classes such as Adept and Engineer are going to be objectively worse and force a more repetitive gameplay with a 3 power limit. This isn't objective, it's a matter of preference. Adept is, and has always been, my favorite class; and I could easily be content with Double Pull, Double Throw and Warp. I can run down the list and give you the three powers I actually, actively use at once for each class. I suspect that we can remap/reassign outside of combat. Also, we don't know how every power will translate to MEA. What if Tech Armor is passive? You have it or you don't? Factors like this could further pare down the need for mapped abilities. There are at least two sides to this. There is no "objective truth" in this debate you've been having. It's all gameplay style preference. |
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 5, 2016 17:31:41 GMT
While it's true we don't have the whole story yet, what we're seeing seems to have some issues. First off, "temp" ammo? Ammo applies only a limited number of shots? That is... extremely dumb. Even dumber than ammo as powers. We've gone from ammo as a mod (makes sense) to ammo as little buttons you press on your gun, except if you're the wrong class you're literally too stupid to press some different buttons to get a new effect. Then we have ME3MP with ammo as "consumable" for one mission, which is ok, it kind of harkens back to the mod concept, except disposable. And now this. I also find it odd they said there'd be no power wheel, except there is still a powerwheel, only it's just for guns and "temp" ammo? PC Master Race here, no idea what teh wheel was ever about, but were weapons on the wheel before? Either way, this wheel seems like a giant waste of space if all you have are two guns and two powers on it (I also wonder if two guns are hard limited like MP?). Assuming they wouldn't design an useless elaborate UI for four items, what will the other slots be for? Powers? (might as well, since you already went back on the no wheel thing.) More "temp" ammo? As to the active powers thing, yeah three seems incredibly limiting, to the point where it throws the classless thing out the window. Remember how they said, you can pick whatever powers but you get set bonuses if you pick enough powers that gets you old classfications (like pick enough biotics and you get adept set bonus)? How would that work with only three powers? If you pick a biotic power and a tech power at random are you automatically a sentinel? With only three powers what would it take to classify as infiltrator, tactical cloak? So if I do warp, overload, tac cloak, what am I? Or to mess with it even more, biotic charge, overload, tac cloak? I suppose it wouldn't be the worst if you did somethign similar to the first [Prototype]. They had a "wheel" too, and you had powers broken down into defensive, offensive, scanning and misc I guess, with one "active" power mapped to the arrow keys. You used the keys to quickly use those powers but could also pull up the wheel and activate (and map) new powers anytime. Of course Prototype's powers were more effects you applied as you shapeshifted into whatever to get the job done but still. If you have three "active slots" and three categories of powers on the wheel and you map one of each but can still change on the fly, it might not be the end of the world. No idea how that'd translate to PC though... That doesn't seem to be what's happening here, but they could also be obscuring that (not sure why) and saving the big wheel redesign reveal for another time. Or it could be exactly what it looks like in which case... the fuck? Maybe it's still fun, but I'm scratching my head over here. I actually find the change to ammo mods to be more realistic. You think of the old mods in terms of "pushing a button", and I guess that works, to an extent. But does that really explain how I'm firing polonium into my foes? It handwaves a lot, which worked for ME1. This new setup implies that we are adding a substance to the process, enhancing a limited number of shots. I think it is a bit more sound, in terms of logic, though I still miss turning every enemy into green, irradiated dust. As to the interaction of the Classless System, Archetypes (can't remember BioWare's name) and "only 3 powers", here are a few things that we do know. * Some skills are passive, and thus don't occupy mapped keys. *Some skills are upgrades of existing skills. *Some skills are non-combat skills, enhancing our investigative or exploration abilities. *Not everything upon which we spend XP will even be a character skill. Nomad upgrades were mentioned as coming from XP. Could these be built into our skill progression trees? We don't know, yet. I would expect, but obviously don't know, that we can train more skills than we can map. The ability to remap outside of combat would be pretty standard. Maybe we can do so at will, from the wheel or a pause screen? Maybe we can only do so when we call down a resupply drop? We gear up, check our specs, etc... We don't really know how limited this system is. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 5, 2016 18:41:30 GMT
I think it might work like this: you have 30 skills, both active and passive. 10 military, 10 tech, 10 biotic. You can pick, let's say, 15. When you reach a certain number of skills unlocked, you can unlock a profile based on how many numbers of powers you picked from the three branches. I think that regardless if we'll be limited to 3, 6 or whatever number, we won't be able to map every power we picked, although they might count for the profile unlocking. It looks certainly confusing, so I hope we'll get more info soon. What would be the point of limiting "unlockable" powers to 15 if balance wise you only ever need to worry about 3? Even if you consider passives, it seems awkward. Keeping with the old number of powers makes more sense: 8 possible mappings- one of which is a medigel/revive, the rest of them are powers. If grenades and ammo are not in the powers category you could drop total mappings to 6- one gel, five powers. You can unlock/upgrade every power in the game (maybe not in one playthrough but you can max out over new game plus) but you equip (read: spec) five at a time. Split powers into their three categories (biotic, tech, combat). If you spec 4/5 combat, biotic or tech powers, you get soldier, adept or engi set bonus respectively. If you do 3/2 tech/biotic split or vice versa, you get sentinel bonus. If you do 3/2 combat and biotic/tech you get infiltrator or vanguard set bonus. Then you have the new one, Explorer, that would be 2/2/1 or 2/1/2 or 1/2/2 combat/biotic/tech. Passives should probably remain with armor/weapon mods. As for nades and ammo, the former can still be powers I think, that was fine, though ME1 style works too. Ammo, I'd like to see back to weapon mods, ME1 style or at the very least, mission long consumables like in MP (that seems like it'd be a good thing to craft). Certainly not the ammo/shot thing the trailer apparently shows. I actually find the change to ammo mods to be more realistic. You think of the old mods in terms of "pushing a button", and I guess that works, to an extent. But does that really explain how I'm firing polonium into my foes? It handwaves a lot, which worked for ME1. This new setup implies that we are adding a substance to the process, enhancing a limited number of shots. I think it is a bit more sound, in terms of logic, though I still miss turning every enemy into green, irradiated dust. As to the interaction of the Classless System, Archetypes (can't remember BioWare's name) and "only 3 powers", here are a few things that we do know. * Some skills are passive, and thus don't occupy mapped keys. *Some skills are upgrades of existing skills. *Some skills are non-combat skills, enhancing our investigative or exploration abilities. *Not everything upon which we spend XP will even be a character skill. Nomad upgrades were mentioned as coming from XP. Could these be built into our skill progression trees? We don't know, yet. I would expect, but obviously don't know, that we can train more skills than we can map. The ability to remap outside of combat would be pretty standard. Maybe we can do so at will, from the wheel or a pause screen? Maybe we can only do so when we call down a resupply drop? We gear up, check our specs, etc... We don't really know how limited this system is. Not really. Ammo as mods makes a hell of a lot more sense than either ME2/3 or this temp ammo nonsense. For one thing in ME1 they did have little blurbs that tried to explain how the ammo works: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ammo_UpgradesWas a large part of it technobabble? Sure. But it said something, other than "the weapon gets a field that enables it to burn/freeze/disrupt stuff" which is literally the explanation for the ammo powers in ME2/3. In ME1, the ammo itself was modified which again makes more sense since special ammo is what you get in RL too. You want armor-piercing, hollowpoints or tracer rounds, that's literally a different ammunition you load into your gun, it's not a special property of the gun. So I'd imagine ME1 ammo mods were different ammo blocks and maybe loading mechanisms you replaced on your weapons, as opposed to "beep boop, now I can burn/freeze you" or even worse, "now I can burn or freeze you for the next five shots only". As for the powers, like I said above, passives and other non-combat boosts shouldn't even factor into this as they wouldn't be a thing that's mapped or on the wheel in combat. They'd be XP based sure, but it'd be a different system, running parallel to combat. |
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The Elder King
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,370 Likes: 8,285
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 5, 2016 19:00:04 GMT
CrutchCricket: I made an example on how the system would work. I have no clue how many powers there'll be in the game. Your idea is interesting. Hopefully it'll resemble what we have in the game. Grenades are powers again, by the way. We saw some in the trailer.
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 6, 2016 3:27:45 GMT
While it's true we don't have the whole story yet, what we're seeing seems to have some issues. First off, "temp" ammo? Ammo applies only a limited number of shots? That is... extremely dumb. Even dumber than ammo as powers. We've gone from ammo as a mod (makes sense) to ammo as little buttons you press on your gun, except if you're the wrong class you're literally too stupid to press some different buttons to get a new effect. Then we have ME3MP with ammo as "consumable" for one mission, which is ok, it kind of harkens back to the mod concept, except disposable. And now this. I also find it odd they said there'd be no power wheel, except there is still a powerwheel, only it's just for guns and "temp" ammo? PC Master Race here, no idea what teh wheel was ever about, but were weapons on the wheel before? Either way, this wheel seems like a giant waste of space if all you have are two guns and two powers on it (I also wonder if two guns are hard limited like MP?). Assuming they wouldn't design an useless elaborate UI for four items, what will the other slots be for? Powers? (might as well, since you already went back on the no wheel thing.) More "temp" ammo? As to the active powers thing, yeah three seems incredibly limiting, to the point where it throws the classless thing out the window. Remember how they said, you can pick whatever powers but you get set bonuses if you pick enough powers that gets you old classfications (like pick enough biotics and you get adept set bonus)? How would that work with only three powers? If you pick a biotic power and a tech power at random are you automatically a sentinel? With only three powers what would it take to classify as infiltrator, tactical cloak? So if I do warp, overload, tac cloak, what am I? Or to mess with it even more, biotic charge, overload, tac cloak? I suppose it wouldn't be the worst if you did somethign similar to the first [Prototype]. They had a "wheel" too, and you had powers broken down into defensive, offensive, scanning and misc I guess, with one "active" power mapped to the arrow keys. You used the keys to quickly use those powers but could also pull up the wheel and activate (and map) new powers anytime. Of course Prototype's powers were more effects you applied as you shapeshifted into whatever to get the job done but still. If you have three "active slots" and three categories of powers on the wheel and you map one of each but can still change on the fly, it might not be the end of the world. No idea how that'd translate to PC though... That doesn't seem to be what's happening here, but they could also be obscuring that (not sure why) and saving the big wheel redesign reveal for another time. Or it could be exactly what it looks like in which case... the fuck? Maybe it's still fun, but I'm scratching my head over here. Fair points in general, heh. I am just as confused. Especially about the wheel thing, I don't know anything about a "wheel" in ME since I also always played on PC. As you mentioned, there's no power wheel, but we have another "equipment" wheel of sorts. So what the heck? There's no power wheel, but now we have an equipment wheel? No, you can have 4 guns of any class. Say, you can have 4 pistols or 4 shotguns. Or 2 and 2, whatever drives your fancy (according to the trailer at least). The inferior part of the wheel seems to be for the ammo consumables. This may be different in MP though, due to balance purposes. ___ Now, ranting a little bit about the ammo here, I got the impression that they want us to feel the type of ammo we have, so they limited it as a very short consumable. You are supposed to use it when is important and not all the time like it was in previous MEs. So they add a limited consumable for you to use it when you really need it, thus making it feel more important. That's my 2 cents on the matter at least. Yup, I'm a bit confused about that too. 3 powers is enough to get a class I guess, but it's limited as hell. Like 2 biotic and one combat power like concusive shot will make you an Adept I guess? and 2 combat abilities and 1 biotic will still make you a Soldier? It's a bit dull. And what about infiltrator? the only way to get that is with Tac. cloak? I mentioned it before, this type of system is what keeps me off DA:I. I believe you could level up to lvl 15 and fill your entire 7-8 slot skill bar in that game. Keep leveling up past that was pointless skill wise because you couldn't use any of the new skills unless you rearranged your skill bar outside combat, which was really stupid imo. ___ Another thing, for all of you thinking that 3 active abilities only is due to a low level character: In the gameplay they showed how Ryder lvld up to lvl 24 and nothing changed. That's not low level tbh. |
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 6, 2016 3:35:51 GMT
I did some digging on the gameplay trailer and took screen shots of all the skills that were present. Some are very similar to ME3 icons for skills, some not. Here they are: This is the type of stuff that should also be in the CSI:BSN thread imo. Also, see how some powers have little dots and "explosion" symbols? I'm not sure if that will make it to the final product (I'm confident it will though), but I believe those are help markers to know what the power does in the combo department: Does it prime or detonate? or both? Some of then don't have the icons, maybe they're not finished. |
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 6, 2016 4:39:22 GMT
This isn't objective, it's a matter of preference. Adept is, and has always been, my favorite class; and I could easily be content with Double Pull, Double Throw and Warp. I can run down the list and give you the three powers I actually, actively use at once for each class. I suspect that we can remap/reassign outside of combat. Also, we don't know how every power will translate to MEA. What if Tech Armor is passive? You have it or you don't? Factors like this could further pare down the need for mapped abilities. There are at least two sides to this. There is no "objective truth" in this debate you've been having. It's all gameplay style preference. Playing a video game at all could be described as a "matter of preference", you don't have to do it, it's just your preferred way to entertain yourself - this is no different really. The simple fact is that caster classes are very repetitive if you are forced to rely on a small amount of abilities. Any kind of variation has the potential to make such a class much more enjoyable. Ideally, different powers are meant to tackle different problems. Now admittedly, previous iterations of ME were rather terrible and unimaginative when it came to the core powers of some classes, which in turn led to many people simply sticking to the use of fewer powers, and repeating them ad nauseam. Using that as an explanation for why a 3 power limit is a "good" thing, is ironic in the extreme. Why? Because this reality was brought about by incompetent design, not necessarily player choice. So yes, Caster classes are objectively better if you have more "spells" to cast.This design is just developers idiotically aping games like "Destiny" or other games where shooting is the main activity and "Caster" classes are non existent, and forcing the MP style on the SP. As for changing powers (or respeccing), first IIRC you are only doing that in the Tempest, and also, second, it's not really relevant to SP since you never know the kind of challenges you'll meet in the next mission,
and it also does nothing to alleviate repetition during gameplay. Not to mention that it makes very little sense, just like the system in DA:I, why do I need to forget how to use Throw if I want to use Singularity? The bottom line is that any design that forces players to adhere to a very particular play-style, any design that severely limits player choice in a game that supposedly has RPG elements, is a flawed and arrogant design that caters only to a section of the player base and disregards the rest. You might be among those that don't really care about this particular issue, but the next time it happens it might be with something that you do care about. I think you understand quite well the definition of the word "objectively". That being the case, you know as well as the rest of us that you use it disingenuously. I won't belabor it any further, since you're clearly unwilling to budge. As to the second point, I didn't say "respec", I said remap. We will likely be able to train more than 3 powers at a time. Being able to remap them outside of combat could be fairly useful. I used this ability all of the time with the ME3 Infiltrator. My 3 mapped powers were either Tactical Cloak + Energy Drain + Sabotage or Tactical Cloak + Energy Drain + Incinerate, depending upon the predominate challenges. |
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 6, 2016 5:43:43 GMT
I think you understand quite well the definition of the word "objectively". That being the case, you know as well as the rest of us that you use it disingenuously. I won't belabor it any further, since you're clearly unwilling to budge. ... I don't know why you feel like you have to resort to an argument about semantics rather than a direct discussion about the topic. I don't think that the claim I made that Caster classes are objectively worse when they only have access to 3 powers is as outlandish as you are pretending. Or my criticism in regards to breakage of suspension of disbelief with mechanics that make no sense such as replacing powers. By all means, I'm open to a rational discussion here, I'm just not seeing anything that actually refutes the claims I made. I'm not dodging the discussion, I just look at the 6 previous pages and wonder if I'd be wasting my time. I'll use the Adept as an example, I guess, since I started with that class. Let's also revisit what I originally said. I said I could play an Adept with just Double Lift, Double Throw and Warp. I don't disagree that more powers are nice. I just disagree that they are objectively better, since a devastatingly effective and/or fun build (take your pick) can be achieved with just 3 powers. I'll list the ME3 Adept Class powers below. I'll give a brief opinion on each, as well, since this seems the most ordered and efficient way to handle the post. I'll exclude Fitness and Biotic Mastery, since they're passives. I'll also add "Bonus Power", since we all use one, and it would be unfair to exclude it. - Singularity: This used to be a fun, go-to power in ME and ME2. It's completely outclassed by both Double Pull and Liara's Singularity in ME3. Skip it until you have nothing else in which to invest.
- Pull: One of your go-to powers. It has a very fast cooldown and is very difficult for enemies to dodge if evolved to Double Pull. It also rips shields from enemies hands. Primes detonations.
- Shockwave: A very corner-case, marginally useful power. Generally, if you can reach it with shockwave, you can reach it with Warp + Throw or Pull + Throw. It does Detonate Combos, and can be evolved to Lift and Prime Combos.
- Throw: This will be the power you use the most. It has a nearly non-existent cooldown and is your Detonator power. Double Throw nearly guarantees a hit, and can detonate multiple combos.
- Warp: Your third go-to power. Even protected enemies will whither under the Warp + Throw assault. The cooldown can be brought very low with passives, loadout weights and equipment.
- Cluster Grenade: These are my favorite grenades. Throw 3-5 of these at a big enemy and take a huge bite out of its health. These are detonators, so you can setup some serious chain explosions if you're crafty.
- Bonus Power: I generally take a "passive power" like Fortification. (Yep, I use it passively--turn it on and ignore it. I suspect these "powers" might be very different in MEA). Some like to select Reave to "replace" Warp. Others like Stasis, which is nice, but not really all that useful, in my opinion. Just kill the enemies quickly, and you won't need a Stasis Bubble.
[/ul] So, in my estimation, the Adept would be no worse for wear if we immediately dropped two powers from the list. Either Singularity or Pull can go. Singularity is supposed to be iconic, but it sucked in ME3. It needs a restorative facelift if it's going to be relevant, again. Shockwave has been obsolete from the start. It's one of those powers people use because they want to use it, not because it's the best tool for the job. Cluster Grenades are cool, but grenades shouldn't even be a power. Who knows how that will play out, though I believe someone said they are still looking to be powers? Either way, I'd never take limited grenades over an unlimited use biotic power. Bonus Powers are just that, a bonus. Generally, if it is essential to your character, you're speccing accordingly. Mine is usually very important, or not important at all. Ultimately, bonus powers are OT relics, since MEA is a classless game. So, there you go. This is my Adept. Three core powers that are mapped; grenades I remember to use a couple of times in the entire game, since I never played MP and got used to using them; and a passive bonus power. This is why I can say with absolute certainty that my Adept experience is not objectively better with more powers. The other powers that I am given go unused. |
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 6, 2016 6:23:15 GMT
I don't think we ever really disagreed, @tzeenchianapostrophe . It truly was a matter of semantics creating a barrier.
I'd definitely be in favor of making the entire Adept repertoire more useful and fitting it all (or more of it) onto a console controller. Since I've never been able to do that, I've thrived without it. I even checked into a professional controller, recently, thinking ahead to MEA, and back to DAI. I was disappointed to learn that the underside paddles merely replace the face-buttons. It makes total sense for competitive gaming;, but I had imagined more buttons for mapping more powers. It seems I won't need them, anyway.
I do wonder how hard it's going to be to play my biotic Infiltrator concept, or the other great ideas running through my mind, with three actives. I hope it won't be too tough.
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Post by ProbeAway on Dec 6, 2016 6:25:21 GMT
I did some digging on the gameplay trailer and took screen shots of all the skills that were present. Some are very similar to ME3 icons for skills, some not. Here they are: This is the type of stuff that should also be in the CSI:BSN thread imo. Also, see how some powers have little dots and "explosion" symbols? I'm not sure if that will make it to the final product (I'm confident it will though), but I believe those are help markers to know what the power does in the combo department: Does it prime or detonate? or both? Some of then don't have the icons, maybe they're not finished. This is all discussed in the 'powers specilationz thread'. Shameless self promotion here. |
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 6, 2016 12:12:57 GMT
It has been stripped down since ME2, hasn't it? And it works perfectly fine in Mass Effect, that's why they are probably sticking to it. I hear you'll be able to exchange powers on the SP character - so that is some added progression if you want it. It wasn't stripped down to this degree certainly, at the very least you had a higher number of powers - more than double, not to mention the bonus powers which were among the most useful and fun in the game. Changing powers is irrelevant on SP. How am I supposed to know if certain powers will be more useful on the next mission or not? And in any case, you are still stuck in the meantime repeatedly using the same 3, not ideal to say the least. Besides, how is this in any way supposed to fit with the lore (or common sense for that matter)? This is not how things work in the ME universe, it's an artificial limit that makes no sense whatsoever. Is this another case were Bioware is going to shit all over the established lore without anyone caring? I guess it must be. Quite the non-issue when you can just resort to load a save game. I think you just complain for the sake of it. |
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 6, 2016 13:46:13 GMT
This is the type of stuff that should also be in the CSI:BSN thread imo. Also, see how some powers have little dots and "explosion" symbols? I'm not sure if that will make it to the final product (I'm confident it will though), but I believe those are help markers to know what the power does in the combo department: Does it prime or detonate? or both? Some of then don't have the icons, maybe they're not finished. This is all discussed in the 'powers specilationz thread'. Shameless self promotion here. Saw the thread immediately after posting my comment here hahaha  |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 6, 2016 16:44:47 GMT
About classes having only two or three really useful powers anyway- take a page out of MMOs (or even ME3MP if the devs are so in love with it), if you have a few things that pwn in all situations and then a few others that decidedly do not and you can only choose a limited set of each, most people will choose the super useful powers rather than gimping themselves by taking something else. This will result in one viable build in each category that everyone runs making variety non-existent and those non-optimal powers even more useless.
And no, saying that casuals won't look up how to min-max doesn't solve the issue. If you want the game casual friendly (and rest assured they do) they'll make it fairly obvious what the powers do, provide helpful descriptions and hints, maybe even a demonstration or two. And then the same thing happens. Maybe the casual doesn't always take the min-maxed evo, but powers, that they'll get.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 6, 2016 16:45:29 GMT
I actually find the change to ammo mods to be more realistic. You think of the old mods in terms of "pushing a button", and I guess that works, to an extent. But does that really explain how I'm firing polonium into my foes? It handwaves a lot, which worked for ME1. This new setup implies that we are adding a substance to the process, enhancing a limited number of shots. I think it is a bit more sound, in terms of logic, though I still miss turning every enemy into green, irradiated dust. <snip> Not really. Ammo as mods makes a hell of a lot more sense than either ME2/3 or this temp ammo nonsense. For one thing in ME1 they did have little blurbs that tried to explain how the ammo works: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ammo_UpgradesWas a large part of it technobabble? Sure. But it said something, other than "the weapon gets a field that enables it to burn/freeze/disrupt stuff" which is literally the explanation for the ammo powers in ME2/3. In ME1, the ammo itself was modified which again makes more sense since special ammo is what you get in RL too. You want armor-piercing, hollowpoints or tracer rounds, that's literally a different ammunition you load into your gun, it's not a special property of the gun. So I'd imagine ME1 ammo mods were different ammo blocks and maybe loading mechanisms you replaced on your weapons, as opposed to "beep boop, now I can burn/freeze you" or even worse, "now I can burn or freeze you for the next five shots only". I overlooked your response, yesterday, amidst a ton of replies across other threads.  I had had mistaken your "press a button" description for your interpretation of how ammo mods worked in ME. You were actually referencing the less well defined ammo powers of ME2/3, no? This makes more sense. I'd always understood ME ammo mods to be replacing the ammunition block, though I'm not sure if I'd ever actually read the codex entry. (Most likely I did in 2007.) Still, my understanding didn't preclude someone else's creation of an alternate "headcanon" explanation for himself. It's a popular thing to do. Thus my misunderstanding.  Edit: Sorry, The Elder King. I can't get your "quote" out of my quote, so you're tagged. |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 6, 2016 16:59:42 GMT
Element Zero , yeah I was talking about ME2 and on. There's no button in ME1 for ammo, you just load the mod and then that's what you're firing lol. Anyone can load a mod into a gun, as opposed to be unable to push a different button for ammo because you have biotics. That's why for ammo I'd recommend they reuse MP's consumables at the very least (you know, if BioWare just really hates unlimited use items these days). Just not this per shot nonsense. Oh and speaking of, looks like we're back to thermal clips too. Surprised no one's talking about that.
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Post by Element Zero on Dec 6, 2016 17:09:58 GMT
Element Zero , yeah I was talking about ME2 and on. There's no button in ME1 for ammo, you just load the mod and then that's what you're firing lol. Anyone can load a mod into a gun, as opposed to be unable to push a different button for ammo because you have biotics. That's why for ammo I'd recommend they reuse MP's consumables at the very least (you know, if BioWare just really hates unlimited use items these days). Just not this per shot nonsense. Oh and speaking of, looks like we're back to thermal clips too. Surprised no one's talking about that. I think many got so worked up by the inaccurate report that we'd be using actual bullets, that they then found Ian's report on the return of thermal clips a relief. He never actually said anything about any weapons having the overheating mechanic, like that "leak" suggests some will. I'd still prefer some of the solutions we discussed, but clips it is. I think they're undeniably here to stay, at this point, if they made the 600 year trip with us to another galaxy. As long as they don't litter the beautifully rendered worlds of Andromeda, I guess I'll find a way to tolerate them. Clips and crates in Andromeda simply won't fly. I'm guessing we resupply at "camp" and via airdrop, maybe, if we're using our own tech. |
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