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Post by ProbeAway on Jan 6, 2017 7:34:26 GMT
It could, but I highly doubt it. I think if that were the case, we would have seen the power set change when the icon was flashing. Since it was a screenshot, it would've easily been a before/after thing that wasn't depicted because it was a screenshot. That's if there's a mechanic as I described, of course. The latest footage actually had the D-down icon as well. It sat there flashing while Ryder was fighting the Remnant and then disappeared. Couldn't work out what it was but I thought it might be squad related - maybe to rally them to your position. Hard to tell.
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Post by Cypher on Jan 6, 2017 7:35:13 GMT
you who hate this have a damn choice its time gamers start using that and stop demanding things be the way you want it . either buy the game or do not Not liking a gameplay element=/=hating the game
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Post by Cypher on Jan 6, 2017 7:41:13 GMT
Since it was a screenshot, it would've easily been a before/after thing that wasn't depicted because it was a screenshot. That's if there's a mechanic as I described, of course. The latest footage actually had the D-down icon as well. It sat there flashing while Ryder was fighting the Remnant and then disappeared. Couldn't work out what it was but I thought it might be squad related - maybe to rally them to your position. Hard to tell. Did it? I didn't notice. I'm sure the dpad will be used for moving the squad still, but not all of the buttons are used as far as I remember. They haven't really done squad controls in any of the demos since they were showing off how flashy the powers and combat has gotten, so it might not be squad related.
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Post by extremegamer on Jan 6, 2017 7:58:22 GMT
you who hate this have a damn choice its time gamers start using that and stop demanding things be the way you want it . either buy the game or do not Not liking a gameplay element=/=hating the game yeah but whats new Bioware fans always want the same ol crap
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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 6, 2017 8:13:55 GMT
Whether 3 active abilities are enough or not depends on the Class/Profile as well as play-style.
Take the Soldier Class from Mass Effect 2 and 3 as an example, you pretty much only use one active ability which is Adrenaline Rush. Since the cooldown is universal, and Adrenaline Rush is by far the best ability you've got, using anything else is just a waste of time. The same argument can be made for most classes, most builds, play-style-approaches, etc. Whoever played ME3 Multiplayer extensively is used to the idea of 3 active abilities - and some would even skip one ability, since many builds can be optimized using only 2 active abilities. It is very clear that ME:A team has been heavily influenced by ME3 Multiplayer, and since that formula of 3 active abilities was well-received and worked out pretty well for the most part, this is a safe path to follow from a combat-oriented standpoint.
That being said, there are limitations in ME3 Multiplayer and what I am worried about is regarding the Sentinel and the Jack-of-all-trades play-styles. You just can't make a Sentinel work with such limitations. Most "Sentinel Class" Characters in ME3 Multiplayer have nothing to do with the ideal of what a Sentinel is supposed to be; They are either full Tech or full Biotic (or at times even full Combat). Some characters do have one Tech and one Biotic ability, but since these do not combo well (if at all), you end up relying on weapons for damage more often than not. Sentinel in ME3 Multiplayer is more of a concept than a Class per se.
Jack-of-all-trades builds are out of question for ME3 Multiplayer, and I fear they might be so for ME:A as well. With just 3 active abilities you have to be specialized in rinsing and repeating the same process over and over, not much room for anything else. In ME3 Multiplayer the closest you can get to a Jack-of-all-trades approach is using two completely different weapons.
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Post by Cypher on Jan 6, 2017 8:20:04 GMT
Whether 3 active abilities are enough or not depends on the Class/Profile as well as play-style. Take the Soldier Class from Mass Effect 2 and 3 as an example, you pretty much only use one active ability which is Adrenaline Rush. Since the cooldown is universal, and Adrenaline Rush is by far the best ability you've got, using anything else is just a waste of time. The same argument can be made for most classes, most builds, play-style-approaches, etc. Whoever played ME3 Multiplayer extensively is used to the idea of 3 active abilities - and many would even skip one, since many builds can be optimized using only 2 active abilities. It is very clear that ME:A team has been heavily influenced by ME3 Multiplayer, and since that formula of 3 active abilities was well-received and worked out pretty well for the most part, this is a safe path to follow from a combat-oriented standpoint. That being said, there are limitations in ME3 Multiplayer and what I am worried about is regarding the Sentinel and the Jack-of-all-trades play-styles. You just can't make a Sentinel work with such limitations. Most "Sentinel Class" Characters in ME3 Multiplayer have nothing to do with the ideal of what a Sentinel is supposed to be; They are either full Tech or full Biotic (or at times even full Combat). Some characters do have one Tech and one Biotic ability, but since these do not combo well (if at all), you end up relying on weapons for damage more often than not. Jack-of-all-trades builds are out of question for ME3 Multiplayer, and I fear they might be so for ME:A as well. With just 3 active abilities you have to be specialized in rinsing and repeating the same process over and over, not much room for anything else. In ME3 Multiplayer the closest you can get to a Jack-of-all-trades approach is using two completely different weapons. I think the enjoyment of ME3's multiplayer came in spite of its ability limitation. I get not having everyone get eight powers, but there was a blank square the entire time; I would've loved at least one more.
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Post by spacev3gan on Jan 6, 2017 8:27:14 GMT
I think the enjoyment of ME3's multiplayer came in spite of its ability limitation. I get not having everyone get eight powers, but there was a blank square the entire time; I would've loved at least one more. As far as the Multiplayer goes, it doesn't really matter much. You play a 20 minutes match with friends, get paid, open a Pack, rinse and repeat. Doing the same thing over and over doesn't hurt much. There is little to no immersion there. Playing a Vanguard that uses only one active ability is not that bad in Multiplayer. Now in Single player you will use the same character for tens of hours, and there is a story behind him/her. I would like to have a bit more immersion in terms of builds and possibilities than what I had playing ME3 Multiplayer.
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Post by Cypher on Jan 6, 2017 8:37:43 GMT
I think the enjoyment of ME3's multiplayer came in spite of its ability limitation. I get not having everyone get eight powers, but there was a blank square the entire time; I would've loved at least one more. As far as the Multiplayer goes, it doesn't really matter much. You play a 20 minutes match with friends, get paid, open a Pack, rinse and repeat. Doing the same thing over and over doesn't hurt much. There is little to no immersion there. Playing a Vanguard that uses only one active ability is not that bad in Multiplayer. Now in Single player you will use the same character for tens of hours, and there is a story behind him/her. I would like to have a bit more immersion in terms of builds and possibilities than what I had playing ME3 Multiplayer. Immersion matters little to me because I don't get immersed in anything; my belief is never suspended for long and I'm generally concerned with internal logic more than being immersed because I'm a beast of pure and unbridled apathy. It's more about fun for me. Multiplayer was fun because I got to run around and shoot things and blow things up. Regardless of how long I was doing it for, I would've had more fun if I had more powers to use without having to resort to mods that don't work correctly for me on the PC version. The amount of time in any given round wasn't why it didn't matter; it didn't matter because the basics were fun enough. Matches could've been five minutes long and if I were stuck with one power, I wouldn't have had as much fun as I would in an hour long match with eight. There being a story behind the character in single player is irrelevant; having three powers in single player isn't any worse than being stuck with three powers in multiplayer; it's the same kind of detractor from the overall experience when for the vast majority of a person's experience with the franchise, they had immediate access to far, far more and what you get isn't what you've come to expect from the kind of experience you signed up from. Now, if Bioware went off and made some Metal Gear Solid inspired game and only gave access to three abilities, it'd be different because the expectations for the experience would be different.
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Post by guanxi on Jan 6, 2017 11:12:22 GMT
I reckon the mouse + kb control scheme will still have the traditional map-able hot-key bar so pc players will continue to be able to map more than 3 active powers at once without having to go into the menu. My concern is the 3 power limit only works in me3mp because you coordinate with 3 other people to integrate/make use of their powers as well so with good teamwork the power limit is really 12.
The glaring issue to me in translating the me3mp system to singleplayer isn't strictly the 3 active power limit so much as without the power wheel/tactical view there is seemingly no way to control/access squad-mate powers directly which indicates to me that in the absence of co-op partners you have to rely entirely on the notoriously bad intelligence of AI partners to prime and detonate combos beyond the 3 power limit which sounds seriously frustrating as all hell especially considering that many powers now have light and heavy attack variations.
Having said that having played me3mp for years with a controller I largely welcome these changes despite concerns over AI because if you really think about it there is possibly only one extra click required now to access your entire power suite so I recon you will probably end up using not only more powers but a more diverse range of powers than you did before even within missions now that the arbitrary single bonus power limit is gone.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 6, 2017 11:17:00 GMT
I reckon the mouse + kb control scheme will still have the traditional map-able hot-key bar so pc players will continue to be able to map more than 3 active powers at once without having to go into the menu. My concern is the 3 power limit only works in me3mp because you coordinate with 3 other people to integrate/make use of their powers as well so with good teamwork the power limit is really 12.
The glaring issue to me in translating the me3mp system to singleplayer isn't strictly the 3 active power limit so much as without the power wheel/tactical view there is seemingly no way to control/access squad-mate powers directly which indicates to me that in the absence of co-op partners you have to rely entirely on the notoriously bad intelligence of AI partners to prime and detonate combos beyond the 3 power limit which sounds seriously frustrating as all hell especially considering that all powers now have a light and heavy attack variation.
Having played me3mp for years with a controller I largely welcome these changes despite concerns over AI because if you really think about it there is possibly only one extra click required now to access your entire power suite so I recon you will probably end up using not only more powers but a more diverse range of powers than you did before even within missions now that the arbitrary single bonus power limit is gone.
Considering DAI, I think they likely decided to not create differences between PC and consoles. Also, considering they said you can switch beteeen m&kb and gamepad on the fly when you play on pc, I doubt this would work if you go from having 7-8 mappable or more powers on kb to 3 on the pad. They said the AI is more advanced this time, as well as squadmates being more important to win the fights compared to the trilogy. We'll see. They did confirm though on twitter after CES that combos are set by any powers, with the type depending on the primer.
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Post by guanxi on Jan 6, 2017 11:24:40 GMT
I reckon the mouse + kb control scheme will still have the traditional map-able hot-key bar so pc players will continue to be able to map more than 3 active powers at once without having to go into the menu. My concern is the 3 power limit only works in me3mp because you coordinate with 3 other people to integrate/make use of their powers as well so with good teamwork the power limit is really 12.
The glaring issue to me in translating the me3mp system to singleplayer isn't strictly the 3 active power limit so much as without the power wheel/tactical view there is seemingly no way to control/access squad-mate powers directly which indicates to me that in the absence of co-op partners you have to rely entirely on the notoriously bad intelligence of AI partners to prime and detonate combos beyond the 3 power limit which sounds seriously frustrating as all hell especially considering that all powers now have a light and heavy attack variation.
Having played me3mp for years with a controller I largely welcome these changes despite concerns over AI because if you really think about it there is possibly only one extra click required now to access your entire power suite so I recon you will probably end up using not only more powers but a more diverse range of powers than you did before even within missions now that the arbitrary single bonus power limit is gone.
Considering DAI, I think they likely decided to not create differences between PC and consoles. Also, considering they said you can switch beteeen m&kb and gamepad on the fly when you play on pc, I doubt this would work if you go from having 7-8 mappable or more powers on kb to 3 on the pad. They said the AI is more advanced this time, as well as squadmates being more important to win the fights compared to the trilogy. We'll see. They did confirm though on twitter after CES that combos are set by any powers, with the type depending on the primer. There has got to be some kind of expanded hot key system for mouse and keyboard otherwise pc people are going to riot.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 6, 2017 11:31:36 GMT
Considering DAI, I think they likely decided to not create differences between PC and consoles. Also, considering they said you can switch beteeen m&kb and gamepad on the fly when you play on pc, I doubt this would work if you go from having 7-8 mappable or more powers on kb to 3 on the pad. They said the AI is more advanced this time, as well as squadmates being more important to win the fights compared to the trilogy. We'll see. They did confirm though on twitter after CES that combos are set by any powers, with the type depending on the primer. There has got to be some kind of expanded hot key system for mouse and keyboard otherwise pc people are going to riot. There wasn't in DAI, so I won't get my hopes up. Especially because if it's like this, the reason behind it is unifying the two game modes i don't get why you think only PC players have problems with it though. Both the trilogy and the first two DA game allowed console players to use all available abilities, and all DA games had more then three mappable powers (6 in the first two, 8 in inquisition). Console players are as screwed with this as pc players, because they both in previous games were able to use all powers if they wanted so. That said, there might be something more behind the three powers loadout because they aren't outright confirming it and stated they'll talk about it when they'll explain more about the gameplay. I prefer to not get my hopes up though.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 6, 2017 11:35:13 GMT
danaxe, @tzeenchianapostrophe Stitching the two threads together as they follow on nicely...
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Post by guanxi on Jan 6, 2017 11:57:13 GMT
There has got to be some kind of expanded hot key system for mouse and keyboard otherwise pc people are going to riot. There wasn't in DAI, so I won't get my hopes up. Especially because if it's like this, the reason behind it is unifying the two game modes i don't get why you think only PC players have problems with it though. Both the trilogy and the first two DA game allowed console players to use all available abilities, and all DA games had more then three mappable powers (6 in the first two, 8 in inquisition). Console players are as screwed with this as pc players, because they both in previous games were able to use all powers if they wanted so. That said, there might be something more behind the three powers loadout because they aren't outright confirming it and stated they'll talk about it when they'll explain more about the gameplay. I prefer to not get my hopes up though. There's definitely more to it... going from 7-8 down to 3 especially on pc and removing the power wheel/tactical view is just too strange to be believed. The weapon wheel is still in the game so I don't see why they couldn't add the power wheel back in given it's such a staple and would offer greater possibility for hotkeys/quick access.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 6, 2017 12:10:31 GMT
There wasn't in DAI, so I won't get my hopes up. Especially because if it's like this, the reason behind it is unifying the two game modes i don't get why you think only PC players have problems with it though. Both the trilogy and the first two DA game allowed console players to use all available abilities, and all DA games had more then three mappable powers (6 in the first two, 8 in inquisition). Console players are as screwed with this as pc players, because they both in previous games were able to use all powers if they wanted so. That said, there might be something more behind the three powers loadout because they aren't outright confirming it and stated they'll talk about it when they'll explain more about the gameplay. I prefer to not get my hopes up though. There's definitely more to it... going from 7-8 down to 3 especially on pc and removing the power wheel/tactical view is just too strange to be believed. The weapon wheel is still in the game so I don't see why they couldn't add the power wheel back in given it's such a staple and would offer greater possibility for hotkeys/quick access. They said they don't want the powers to be used on pause to not break the flow of combat. Though the weapon wheel does that as well. I don't find it strange that they wanted to unify the game modes because they did it (kind of) with DAI, and ME Was already more action oriented then DA. I do find it strange that they aren't confirming it, so something might be hidden for now. I just think it's far better to expect the system to work this way, to avoid (partially) disappointment.
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Post by guanxi on Jan 6, 2017 12:18:01 GMT
M There's definitely more to it... going from 7-8 down to 3 especially on pc and removing the power wheel/tactical view is just too strange to be believed. The weapon wheel is still in the game so I don't see why they couldn't add the power wheel back in given it's such a staple and would offer greater possibility for hotkeys/quick access. They said they don't want the powers to be used on pause to not break the flow of combat. Though the weapon wheel does that as well. I don't find it strange that they wanted to unify the game modes because they did it (kind of) with DAI, and ME Was already more action oriented then DA. I do find it strange that they aren't confirming it, so something might be hidden for now. I just think it's far better to expect the system to work this way, to avoid (partially) disappointment. I always like to expect the worst but having to come out of the game to change load out literally takes you out of the game so couldn't be more game flow breaking. It's only a minor inconvenience I suppose and we're yet to see what the dpad does.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 6, 2017 15:50:02 GMT
I'm expecting no concessions for mouse/keyboard. What ships on PS4/Xbox is what ships on PC (just remapped) is my expectation.
Clearly folk have questions, I hope we'll know more 'soon'...
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 6, 2017 21:27:32 GMT
I'm expecting no concessions for mouse/keyboard. What ships on PS4/Xbox is what ships on PC (just remapped) is my expectation. Clearly folk have questions, I hope we'll know more 'soon'... I think it's less questions and more desire to know if Me:A combat system has been crippled even before launch with no discernible purpose or reason. I’m sorry if this post comes out a little aggressive, but I become a little concerned when an RPG I love is turned more and more in an FPS… just saying.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 6, 2017 21:37:44 GMT
I'm expecting no concessions for mouse/keyboard. What ships on PS4/Xbox is what ships on PC (just remapped) is my expectation. Clearly folk have questions, I hope we'll know more 'soon'... I think it's less questions and more desire to know if Me:A combat system has been crippled even before launch with no discernible purpose or reason. I’m sorry if this post comes out a little aggressive, but I become a little concerned when an RPG I love is turned more and more in an FPS… just saying. I'm sure they have been testing it for many months, why would they persist with a crippling mechanic? To my mind, the biggest issue is simply that we don't know yet how it works. ME3 was preceded with extensive complaints about the multiplayer which turned out very nicely.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 6, 2017 21:54:58 GMT
I think it's less questions and more desire to know if Me:A combat system has been crippled even before launch with no discernible purpose or reason. I’m sorry if this post comes out a little aggressive, but I become a little concerned when an RPG I love is turned more and more in an FPS… just saying. I'm sure they have been testing it for many months, why would they persist with a crippling mechanic? To my mind, the biggest issue is simply that we don't know yet how it works. ME3 was preceded with extensive complaints about the multiplayer which turned out very nicely. Well, to be fair, the Me3 multiplayer was an unknown quantity at the time, and many believed it would have absorbed resources better spent on the single player campaign. Jury is still out on this, but regardless I too am happy on how good the ME3 multi still is. Here instead, the fear is that what we’ve seen is exactly how it appears.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 22:01:19 GMT
imo there's nothing wrong with limiting how many active abilities one can have. Plenty of games do it. Rather than limiting gameplay variety it forces you to think about which abilities are best for a scenario, think about how those abilities synergize together and make the most out of that combination. It promotes build talk. There are good arguments for either side
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 6, 2017 22:06:37 GMT
imo there's nothing wrong with limiting how many active abilities one can have. Plenty of games do it. Rather than limiting gameplay variety it forces you to think about which abilities are best for a scenario, think about how those abilities synergize together and make the most out of that combination. It promotes build talk. There are good arguments for either side True that, still the possibility to choose more abilities at the same time doesn't hurt anyone. The reverse is not true.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by midnightwolf on Jan 6, 2017 22:13:49 GMT
imo there's nothing wrong with limiting how many active abilities one can have. Plenty of games do it. Rather than limiting gameplay variety it forces you to think about which abilities are best for a scenario, think about how those abilities synergize together and make the most out of that combination. It promotes build talk. There are good arguments for either side That's great in theory. But until you play, you aren't going to know which abilities are best, in which situation. And if this is anything like DA:I, we won't be able to remap more suitable abilities during combat. Which means we'll either have to suffer through the fight, or reload and come back with different abilities.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ProbeAway on Jan 6, 2017 22:19:05 GMT
imo there's nothing wrong with limiting how many active abilities one can have. Plenty of games do it. Rather than limiting gameplay variety it forces you to think about which abilities are best for a scenario, think about how those abilities synergize together and make the most out of that combination. It promotes build talk. There are good arguments for either side True, but not all games dramatically reduce the available number of abilities compared to previous instalments. In ME3 you could have up to seven at once and you still had to stop and think about which powers were best for each situation you came across. Each class also had its strengths and weaknesses that added to this dynamic. I'm willing to judge the game for what it is when it actually comes out but I think it's fair to have reservations, particularly when it seems like the main driver behind this decision is to make SP combat and MP combat more similar.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 6, 2017 22:19:17 GMT
imo there's nothing wrong with limiting how many active abilities one can have. Plenty of games do it. Rather than limiting gameplay variety it forces you to think about which abilities are best for a scenario, think about how those abilities synergize together and make the most out of that combination. It promotes build talk. There are good arguments for either side That's great in theory. But until you play, you aren't going to know which abilities are best, in which situation. And if this is anything like DA:I, we won't be able to remap more suitable abilities during combat. Which means we'll either have to suffer through the fight, or reload and come back with different abilities. I'm hoping you will be able to remap during combat. At the worse I think what they are going to be setting you up to do, in this case is...say you see a bunch of tech enemies in the distance...you load up your three abilities that you feel deal with Techy badguys, and if you see biotic enemies you switch to biotic, and then you might have a different set for enemies who close on you (like Husks) and then another set for bosses. Granted this could REALLY mess with the flow and pacing of the game but at the end of the day its no worse then putting the oils on your weapons in the Witcher, and hopefully better.
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