Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 12, 2017 19:21:37 GMT
All I'm doing is trying to come up with ways to justify a reduction in loadable talents that we all know was actually done to support a "seamless" transition between SP and MP. A skill limit that has always existed in MP, and as someone who doesn't appreciate that aspect of gaming, it's pretty easy for me to hate on MP for what it's done to SP. . I can respect that. I tried that myself for justifying how we get to Andromeda to begin with. But I don't think you'll have much more luck than I did.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 19:42:11 GMT
All I'm doing is trying to come up with ways to justify a reduction in loadable talents that we all know was actually done to support a "seamless" transition between SP and MP. A skill limit that has always existed in MP, and as someone who doesn't appreciate that aspect of gaming, it's pretty easy for me to hate on MP for what it's done to SP. . I can respect that. I tried that myself for justifying how we get to Andromeda to begin with. But I don't think you'll have much more luck than I did. Yeah, I know. I've been around awhile, though I lurk more than I post. I've not yet committed to Andromeda, but if I do decide to go there, I'll prolly go with a clean slate on tech so I can enjoy the game. The fewer connections with the trilogy, the better imho.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 12, 2017 19:55:40 GMT
I can respect that. I tried that myself for justifying how we get to Andromeda to begin with. But I don't think you'll have much more luck than I did. Yeah, I know. I've been around awhile, though I lurk more than I post. I've not yet committed to Andromeda, but if I do decide to go there, I'll prolly go with a clean slate on tech so I can enjoy the game. The fewer connections with the trilogy, the better imho. Amen to that: still, I really would have liked to have a meaningful Rachni charachter this time around...
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fade9wayz
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Post by fade9wayz on Jan 13, 2017 13:14:26 GMT
No sorry, you don’t receive a free pass for troll logic invoking double standard, or accuse someone of walling you rights to say anything you want just to strengthen your arguments. Free forum, freedom of post: I’m not stonewalling you, otherwise I would have simply ignored your posts instead of offering rebuttals. I’ve no power, nor hidden magic to stop you from posting anything you want: so rest assured, your rights are, already, quite guaranteed. I’m calling you out on the bullshit you post: see the difference? Accusing a game mechanic to cause tendinitis to justify the welcoming of its removal is plainly wrong, and offensive to at least any gamers: it’s the same kind of… opinions it has been used to “demonstrate” games incite to violence and advocating for their ban. So, personally I take offense to something like that, especially when used in a forum just like this one. Yet you have dismissed all my other arguments to only focus on that little tidbit in an effort to disparage all my posts because it wasn't agreeing with you. I have small hands, so yes, accessing powers on keys 7, 8, 9 is a pain, and I don't have to play very long before it actually becomes hurtful, especially when they are important feature like medigel and ops packs. The more powers there are, the more complicated it becomes to rebind them comfortingly so that I can avoid this. And that's assuming key-binding doesn't get re-setted everytime a patch is applied like in the Witcher 3, where I eventually gave up rebinding keys. We all have preferences when it comes to games, yet you don't see me making fun of sjsharp because they don't like fast-paced games when fundamentally, it's also a personal preference. Yet their concerns are valid in your eyes, and mine not, just because you don't like the admittedly flippant tone I used to express them. Thing is, they are as real as sjsharp's. I don't play games like Heavy Rain because there isn't much else than a story. If the story is bad and there's essentially no gameplay, you're left with nothing. The game has zero value. You can just cross your hands in your lap and watch it boringly unfold. I don't want MEA to become that, not that I would object if a story-mode with little to no combat was added. I don't want the protagonist to become so over-powered that higher difficulties become meaningless like it did in ME3. Telling me to go play some other game for that, or to gimp myself is akin to telling me 'screw you, your opinion doesn't matter'. Yes, it's obvious double-standard BS. And if I, as an average player, have to gimp myself to feel challenged, then that says a lot about how the difficulty is inappropriately balanced on Hard or Insanity. That hurts the game for many players who, like me, enjoy a good challenge on higher difficulties. You have asked how having more powers could hurt the game, and I have provided extensive possible answers. Dismissing it outright because you don't like it isn't a proper rebuttal and tells me you only want one-sided conversations. So, in the hope you'll give me better arguments than 'It's not fun for me, you're a troll', I'm going to repat myself: There have always been limits on the protagonist in any game. In MET the number of active powers was higher, yes, but you couldn't have powers outside of your class and universal cool-downs stopped you from comboing indefinitely, effectively limiting the player. In MEA, we seemingly have access to every power, and they have individual cool-downs. We can also freely change our build outside of combat to better face them. So yes, there's a need for some other sort of limitation, which might apparently take the form of lowering the number of active powers. I think it's a fine solution, which has been tested and proven effective in ME3MP. ME3MP combat mechanics was one of the most fun gameplay I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing, many of us still play it. On PC, I have little trouble finding a full lobby 5 years later. It was a real success, whether you acknowledge it or not. To me, it makes sense that a dev team who was heavilly involved in ME3MP would want to transfer that to MEA. Your analogy is ridiculous by the way, there is no parallel between the very real and recorded physical effects of overuse of mouse and keyboard (also found in a professional setting), and some general opinion on video games that you take so much offense in.
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fade9wayz
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Post by fade9wayz on Jan 13, 2017 14:00:57 GMT
Actually I think balance would matter more in PvP than coop or PvE And what people consider "interesting and challenging' is different from person to person. I've never played higher than Veteran. Does that make me a scrub? If you want more challenge, play more challenging builds. But don't spoil everyone else's fun because you think they need to "git gud" Nope, it's as important against AI, unless you don't care about combat or difficulty levels at all. It will condition the number of ennemies you will face, their damage potential, their velocity, their variety and their HP. The more the protagonist is powerful, the more these variables will need to be increased to stupid levels, or not, and the game gets casualized on higher difficulties. I'm amazed you don't understand that. When did I imply you were a scrub if you don't play higher than veteran? When did I tell you to git gud? So nice putting words in other's mouth. Does that mean because I used to be a scrub and put the time and effort to git gud, I don't have a right to have fun anymore? Fun is reserved to casual players now? So it's okay for you to spoil my fun, and every one else's who cares for a challenge? Your version of fun is necessarily superior to mine? Thanks for clarifying that. Difficulty levels are there so that everyone can complete the game under their own preferences. However, when Insanity proves to be so easy an average player like myself has to limit their use of powers in order to feel challenged, then there's a problem. When there's a problem, it's only natural to look for its origin, and yes, the number of active powers Shepard had access to is part of it. See post above about the necessity of some sort of limitation.
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Post by fade9wayz on Jan 13, 2017 14:12:31 GMT
Nope, it's as important against AI, unless you don't care about combat or difficulty levels at all. It will condition the number of ennemies you will face, their damage potential, their velocity, their variety and their HP. The more the protagonist is powerful, the more these variables will need to be increased to stupid levels, or not, and the game gets casualized on higher difficulties. I'm amazed you don't understand that. ME3 enemies didn't need to be increased in their numbers or potential to "stupid levels" just because the PC had 8 abilities, and neither did enemies in many RPG's that had protagonists with a large number of abilities. Your theories have nothing to do with the reality of games with these features. I can give you a list if you want, after all, playing RPG's of this type is probably my favorite gaming pass-time. And that's precisely why ME3 was casualized on Insanity. They didn't ramp it up enough to match Shepard's OPness. Then your list would need to be accompanied by all the limitations (number of active powers at the same time, effectiveness of these powers against ennemies, cool-downs...) to explain how that made them balanced against their ennemies and how the different difficulty levels affected ennemies and protaginist. Otherwise it's meaningless
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 13, 2017 14:40:34 GMT
Nope, it's as important against AI, unless you don't care about combat or difficulty levels at all. It will condition the number of ennemies you will face, their damage potential, their velocity, their variety and their HP. The more the protagonist is powerful, the more these variables will need to be increased to stupid levels, or not, and the game gets casualized on higher difficulties. I'm amazed you don't understand that. ME3 enemies didn't need to be increased in their numbers or potential to "stupid levels" just because the PC had 8 abilities, and neither did enemies in many RPG's that had protagonists with a large number of abilities. Your theories have nothing to do with the reality of games with these features. I can give you a list if you want, after all, playing RPG's of this type is probably my favorite gaming pass-time. Mine as well these days
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Post by fade9wayz on Jan 13, 2017 15:13:11 GMT
And that's precisely why ME3 was casualized on Insanity. They didn't ramp it up enough to match Shepard's OPness. No, not really, Shepard wasn't OP while relying on "caster" style abilities. Weapons (that were allowed more upgrades than skills) and weapon related skills that enhanced shooting even further were king in that area. So now, caster playstyle is getting nerfed, while shooty playsyles remain more or less the same, with access to abilities that enhance this playstyle AND special ammo. So this didn't solve any balance problems really. Besides, by all means, they can make insanity as dangerous as they want for those that find the hardest difficulty too "casual", that would allow more people to enjoy the game as they wish. Huh, they had to limit these powers because they are very good. A Shepard adept is nothing to laugh at, just with warp and singularity. If you add Stasis or Energy drain, you have effectively rendered most of the mooks harmless, and debuffed most other ennemies depending on how you upgraded these powers. Not to mention you could use every weapons in the game, granted, without the amazing bonuses on weapons a soldier or infiltrator would get. But as you mentionned in some previous post, some weapons are so good that even without powers enhancing them, they still get the job nicely done. If these powers had been on individual cool-downs, you could have cycled with combos non-stop. Your true limit here, was universal cool-downs. MET was never a game where you played pure casters, everyone, including adepts hold weapons and make good use of it.. In ME2 and 3, the 'weight' of these weapons affected your universal cool-downs. It means it limited your choice of weapons if you intended to rely heavily on your powers. In MEA, we know we'll have individual cool-downs, the weight of weapons won't be as impacting, since by the time you've used your last power of the list, should there be seven of them, the cool-down of the first power you used will most likely be up. There must be some kind of limit to balance the protagonist. They might keep the seven powers, but then, the weapons would need to be nerfed severely to try and balance it out, and then, it's soldiers and Infiltrators mains who will be grumpy. Or the powers themselves need to be nerfed, and we come back to our previous discussion. Honestly, I don't mind if some builds are better than others. It's inevitable with such a waste array of powers, but a balance against the AI needs to be found, which means introducing some kind of limit. Ideally, it would mean testing the game with the best and worst builds possible and find a middleground for each difficulty level. I have doubts they'll do this though... I agree with your last statement, it just seems it's the mean to achieve that we disagree on. P.S: I should really go get some food. Later!
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 13, 2017 15:43:10 GMT
ME3 enemies didn't need to be increased in their numbers or potential to "stupid levels" just because the PC had 8 abilities, and neither did enemies in many RPG's that had protagonists with a large number of abilities. Your theories have nothing to do with the reality of games with these features. I can give you a list if you want, after all, playing RPG's of this type is probably my favorite gaming pass-time. And that's precisely why ME3 was casualized on Insanity. They didn't ramp it up enough to match Shepard's OPness. Then your list would need to be accompanied by all the limitations (number of active powers at the same time, effectiveness of these powers against ennemies, cool-downs...) to explain how that made them balanced against their ennemies and how the different difficulty levels affected ennemies and protaginist. Otherwise it's meaningless Shepard's "OP-ness" was dependent on the skills taken and the player's ability to use them. Shepard wasn't OP because Shepard (except in the storyline) Sounds like your beef is primarily with how enemies were balanced in the higher levels. While Limiting player chocie to just a few abilities might make that task easier, it's not the only, and certainly not the best way to address that.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 13, 2017 15:53:26 GMT
Actually I think balance would matter more in PvP than coop or PvE And what people consider "interesting and challenging' is different from person to person. I've never played higher than Veteran. Does that make me a scrub? If you want more challenge, play more challenging builds. But don't spoil everyone else's fun because you think they need to "git gud" Nope, it's as important against AI, unless you don't care about combat or difficulty levels at all. It will condition the number of ennemies you will face, their damage potential, their velocity, their variety and their HP. The more the protagonist is powerful, the more these variables will need to be increased to stupid levels, or not, and the game gets casualized on higher difficulties. I'm amazed you don't understand that. When did I imply you were a scrub if you don't play higher than veteran? When did I tell you to git gud? So nice putting words in other's mouth. Does that mean because I used to be a scrub and put the time and effort to git gud, I don't have a right to have fun anymore? Fun is reserved to casual players now? So it's okay for you to spoil my fun, and every one else's who cares for a challenge? Your version of fun is necessarily superior to mine? Thanks for clarifying that. Difficulty levels are there so that everyone can complete the game under their own preferences. However, when Insanity proves to be so easy an average player like myself has to limit their use of powers in order to feel challenged, then there's a problem. When there's a problem, it's only natural to look for its origin, and yes, the number of active powers Shepard had access to is part of it. See post above about the necessity of some sort of limitation. I'd say the game gets casualized (whatever the hell that means) when they AREN'T addressed. When you say that average players (like yourself, as you say) can beat Insanity so easily you need to artificially constrain yourself in order to be challenged, you are saying that players like myself who stick to the lower levels are, well, "less than average" So yeah, you implied. Strongly. Now artificially restricting yourself to just a couple of powers is "not fun" but Bioware limiting EVERYONE to what will likely end up being a primer power, a detonator, and the utility power of preference somehow IS fun? Misery loves company? Thanks for clarifying.
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Post by Vall on Jan 13, 2017 16:48:59 GMT
I have a question, to both sides if I may...what is the point of arguing about this when the game is in the last stages of development (so they won't change core systems) but before it has come out? Why don't we go all into this with open mind and see how it works in context and shout we love/hate the system after we've seen and tried it?
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Post by sgtreed24 on Jan 13, 2017 17:03:01 GMT
The thing I don't like about only having 3 powers is, it means they are trying to force you into their whole new "omg look no classes!" system. Where if you are constantly switching out classes, it just makes your character feel less realistic imo. Just another, "I can do everything" type character.
I quite liked when the classes limited you to certain skills. You had to weigh the pros and cons of each class and go with what you wanted your character to be. (Also, made the idea of replaying the game more attractive in my opinion. If I can do everything in the first playthrough, there's no need.)
And it just makes logical sense in a balance sort of way. If you're amazing in biotics, that's where you've spent your training time and thus you lack in skill with what you've neglected (weapons).
Just not a fan. I already have to force myself to stick to just certain trees in games like skyrim and fallout... gotta do the same in ME now too. Le sigh.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 17:25:20 GMT
Yeah, I'm not at all a fan of the deconstruction of the class system. Throughout the trilogy, it really enhanced my role-play - but I'm not one to re-spec or take bonus powers that don't gel with the class I'm playing.
I hope it will be viable in MEA to stick to a single class. I guess we'll see.
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Post by fade9wayz on Jan 13, 2017 17:34:07 GMT
I have a question, to both sides if I may...what is the point of arguing about this when the game is in the last stages of development (so they won't change core systems) but before it has come out? Why don't we go all into this with open mind and see how it works in context and shout we love/hate the system after we've seen and tried it? Oh I'm in full agreement. This is why I was asking them to try it before declaring their love or hate of the new system.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Jan 13, 2017 17:34:25 GMT
Yeah, I'm not at all a fan of the deconstruction of the class system. Throughout the trilogy, it really enhanced my role-play - but I'm not one to re-spec or take bonus powers that don't gel with the class I'm playing. I hope it will be viable in MEA to stick to a single class. I guess we'll see. I'm going to attempt it that's for sure. I love/d my Engineer and Infiltrator classes. (And adept whenever I felt like being a space wizard lol)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 17:53:27 GMT
Yeah, I'm not at all a fan of the deconstruction of the class system. Throughout the trilogy, it really enhanced my role-play - but I'm not one to re-spec or take bonus powers that don't gel with the class I'm playing. I hope it will be viable in MEA to stick to a single class. I guess we'll see. I'm going to attempt it that's for sure. I love/d my Engineer and Infiltrator classes. (And adept whenever I felt like being a space wizard lol) And just now I remind myself that Ryder is this new thing called a Pathfinder, who apparently has skills in biotics and tech. It's a different paradigm, to be sure.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Jan 13, 2017 17:59:50 GMT
I'm going to attempt it that's for sure. I love/d my Engineer and Infiltrator classes. (And adept whenever I felt like being a space wizard lol) And just now I remind myself that Ryder is this new thing called a Pathfinder, who apparently has skills in biotics and tech. It's a different paradigm, to be sure. Technically your Ryder isn't though. They don't start out as the pathfinder, so... in my mind anyway, they should already be in some sort of role. I'm probably going to play mine as "is on the pathfinder team to be the engineer of the group." And then of she gets promoted to pathfinder and has to lead. (while still being tech based)
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fade9wayz
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Post by fade9wayz on Jan 13, 2017 18:29:53 GMT
Shepard's "OP-ness" was dependent on the skills taken and the player's ability to use them. Shepard wasn't OP because Shepard (except in the storyline) Sounds like your beef is primarily with how enemies were balanced in the higher levels. While Limiting player chocie to just a few abilities might make that task easier, it's not the only, and certainly not the best way to address that. I'd say the game gets casualized (whatever the hell that means) when they AREN'T addressed. When you say that average players (like yourself, as you say) can beat Insanity so easily you need to artificially constrain yourself in order to be challenged, you are saying that players like myself who stick to the lower levels are, well, "less than average" So yeah, you implied. Strongly. Now artificially restricting yourself to just a couple of powers is "not fun" but Bioware limiting EVERYONE to what will likely end up being a primer power, a detonator, and the utility power of preference somehow IS fun? Misery loves company? Thanks for clarifying. So, in practicality, you had to gimp your Shepard by chosing the lesser powers instead of the better ones They didn't address it. An optimized Shepard was OP even on Insanity. Yes, I have a beef with that, especially since I don't find bullet-sponges to be the answer either. ME3MP was proof that a system with three active abilities and two passive provided great gameplay,so yes, I consider it to be a good way to address that. No, I made no judgement of valor, you are the one who decided to feel as if I did. I don't know the reasons that motivate you to play on Veteran. Maybe combat doesn't interest you all that much, and that level of difficulty is adequate for the kind of satisfaction you look for in a game. And even if you do stick to veteran because you feel you are not good enough for higher difficulties, then so what? There are plenty other players that are far better than me, who solo Platinum with various kits (which is incidentally why I place myself into the average, I definitely can't do that even with the most effective kits and amps), I don't begrudge them when they show me how better they are than me in MP. Someone needs to get the high score, if it's not me, then I'm just not good enough and that's that. It's not having to restrict myself to a couple of powers that is the problem, it's having to restrict myself to the lesser ones that is. Yes, that way I get the challenge I seek, but it's just poor design. A vanguard without biotic charge is lame, an adept without singularity too, and so on. Insanity should be the difficulty level where an optimized build is necessary to complete the game. If I can't do it with an optimized build, then I'm just not good enough and will play on a lesser difficulty. No biggie, but at least it makes higher difficulties meaningful. Anyway, if you're so set to hate it before even trying it, there's no way we'll come to a mutual understanding. Some of you were asking while they would change the system, I merely provided possible answers and stated that I would welcome such a change, considering the classless system and individual cool-downs. MPers managed to have loads of fun with only three active powers (and no story), my 1780 hours in MP are a testament to that, if anything else. Clearly I had fun. This is why I say only basing your argumentation on a subjective thing like fun isn't good enough. What is fun to you might not be for someone else, and vice-versa. I'm open to other ways to balance the game, so long as higher levels of difficulty do not require me to gimp myself, but actually give the best I can in beating them, without ending up with bullet-sponges, or nerfed weapons/powers.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 13, 2017 18:45:32 GMT
No sorry, you don’t receive a free pass for troll logic invoking double standard, or accuse someone of walling you rights to say anything you want just to strengthen your arguments. Free forum, freedom of post: I’m not stonewalling you, otherwise I would have simply ignored your posts instead of offering rebuttals. I’ve no power, nor hidden magic to stop you from posting anything you want: so rest assured, your rights are, already, quite guaranteed. I’m calling you out on the bullshit you post: see the difference? Accusing a game mechanic to cause tendinitis to justify the welcoming of its removal is plainly wrong, and offensive to at least any gamers: it’s the same kind of… opinions it has been used to “demonstrate” games incite to violence and advocating for their ban. So, personally I take offense to something like that, especially when used in a forum just like this one. Yet you have dismissed all my other arguments to only focus on that little tidbit in an effort to disparage all my posts because it wasn't agreeing with you. I have small hands, so yes, accessing powers on keys 7, 8, 9 is a pain, and I don't have to play very long before it actually becomes hurtful, especially when they are important feature like medigel and ops packs. The more powers there are, the more complicated it becomes to rebind them comfortingly so that I can avoid this. And that's assuming key-binding doesn't get re-setted everytime a patch is applied like in the Witcher 3, where I eventually gave up rebinding keys. We all have preferences when it comes to games, yet you don't see me making fun of sjsharp because they don't like fast-paced games when fundamentally, it's also a personal preference. Yet their concerns are valid in your eyes, and mine not, just because you don't like the admittedly flippant tone I used to express them. Thing is, they are as real as sjsharp's. I don't play games like Heavy Rain because there isn't much else than a story. If the story is bad and there's essentially no gameplay, you're left with nothing. The game has zero value. You can just cross your hands in your lap and watch it boringly unfold. I don't want MEA to become that, not that I would object if a story-mode with little to no combat was added. I don't want the protagonist to become so over-powered that higher difficulties become meaningless like it did in ME3. Telling me to go play some other game for that, or to gimp myself is akin to telling me 'screw you, your opinion doesn't matter'. Yes, it's obvious double-standard BS. And if I, as an average player, have to gimp myself to feel challenged, then that says a lot about how the difficulty is inappropriately balanced on Hard or Insanity. That hurts the game for many players who, like me, enjoy a good challenge on higher difficulties. You have asked how having more powers could hurt the game, and I have provided extensive possible answers. Dismissing it outright because you don't like it isn't a proper rebuttal and tells me you only want one-sided conversations. So, in the hope you'll give me better arguments than 'It's not fun for me, you're a troll', I'm going to repat myself: There have always been limits on the protagonist in any game. In MET the number of active powers was higher, yes, but you couldn't have powers outside of your class and universal cool-downs stopped you from comboing indefinitely, effectively limiting the player. In MEA, we seemingly have access to every power, and they have individual cool-downs. We can also freely change our build outside of combat to better face them. So yes, there's a need for some other sort of limitation, which might apparently take the form of lowering the number of active powers. I think it's a fine solution, which has been tested and proven effective in ME3MP. ME3MP combat mechanics was one of the most fun gameplay I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing, many of us still play it. On PC, I have little trouble finding a full lobby 5 years later. It was a real success, whether you acknowledge it or not. To me, it makes sense that a dev team who was heavilly involved in ME3MP would want to transfer that to MEA. Your analogy is ridiculous by the way, there is no parallel between the very real and recorded physical effects of overuse of mouse and keyboard (also found in a professional setting), and some general opinion on video games that you take so much offense in. Are we really trying to say this wasn't posted? And I'm sorry if you can't see the parallelism in question: imo, the leap is the same. Less jarring maybe, but never the less the same poor logic: the abuse of a misconception to support an argument. It’s not believable a ME game mechanic you admit of not using it’s the cause of wrist damage for yourself in the same game. Sorry, I really can’t stay silent before something so appalling: you consider it a titbit, but it’s the stuff of shivers reading it. I really relate to wrist damage caused by too many work hours: hell, I work every day in an office doing research work. But faulting a game mechanic and promoting its removal for it, instead of the excess of every day workload, it’s incomprehensible. And it’s unbelievable someone could agree with this. I'm not against a flippant tone in a discussion like this one (or any others for the matter), if you've the facts to support your thesis and the ability to explain it properly: in this thread, I’m afraid you haven’t provided anything substantial to support your reasons, more than personal perception and preferences (not facts). Something I pointed out already once at least. “You have asked how having more powers could hurt the game, and I have provided extensive possible answers.” No, I’m afraid you only succeed in declaring how good less powers are better for you, up until now. Another limitation to the Opness you perceive as such in ME, would be, or could be, better mobs: more intelligent, not necessarily the bullet sponges we dread so much. I endorse something worse than Collectors in ME3MP: as they are now, they are masters of harassment, more than raw damage. Why not evolve from there, instead of reducing power numbers? It seems to me you consider dumb enemies and bullet sponges our collective doom: I think the devs showed us other ways are indeed possible in ME. And where in the seven circles of hell even I said ME3MP was a fail? I just said I don’t think ME:A single player should be balanced with the same logic for more than one reason in different posts. Mainly, I don’t think the companions we will have in ME:A will be able to synergize with us, becoming a dead weight at best. If not an impairment. I’ve also said that allowing more power slots enhances possible builds: so the creativity and the joy of the player, able to experiment as they please most. How this is a bad thing, when coupled with stronger enemies? And how does this damage people who play with less powers but likes a harsher challenge? And I really don’t understand the bone you pick with sjsharp: if you have something to disagree with him, go for it. I usually don’t disagree on behalf of a third party, on a thread like this one at least. And considering Sjsharp took the time to repost twitter posts and investigate on the situation to clarify it, I think a thank is dued at least. Lastly, I would like to remind you a little post of mine two days ago: And lo and behold, you got flaked many times, by different users for different causes (me among the others, true). And I would be the bad guy? For trying to invite you to caution? Ehhh… Now, I suppose you will accuse us all of being a cartel of terror and ignorance, a stonewalling secret society spawned from the darkest corner of the night to disrupt your right to speech (granted by the forums btw): a collective of double standards… Flash news: we are not. In fact, you see me discussing with other users too. Even when they don't agree with my opinions. Funny things about beginning to drawn lines among people btw, sooner or later you find yourself alone. Just sayin... been there, seen that. I hope some of this manage to reach you.
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fade9wayz
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Post by fade9wayz on Jan 13, 2017 19:02:07 GMT
So because weapons are so effective and had powers to enhance them further, the "caster" side needs to be nerfed? I don't follow the logic. Restricting everyone to a particular playstyle diminishes the the amount of people that will be able to enjoy the gameplay. By all means, if you want to prevent shooty classes from becoming gods of destruction by using EVERYTHING you can add a variety of limitations. Almost every limitation I can think of would be better than restricting the number of powers to 3. Including weapon weight system (as dumb as it was immersion-wise), or even remaining in a class-based system. It's not like a class-less system is particularly amazing with a 3 ability limit, you can barely do anything with it. If the powers are so effective you can basically not use said weapon, but still have it, you have a double advantage on the one who's only main power is to enhance the damage of their weapon, not to mention you actually need to aim with a weapon. The best weapons in MP, like the arc pistol, required that the player made consistent headshots to get full value out of it. You might disagree, but I'm of the opinion that skill should be rewarded. Casters barely need to aim their powers, yet they can use the same weapons as soldiers or infiltrators and benefit from the headshot bonus as well. So either weapons need to be nerfed so that casters don't have that double-advantage, but then, weapon-oriented builds will suffer from it, or you nerf the powers somehow (longer cooldowns, less effective...), so that shooty classes have a reason to be picked over casters. What do you mean? Weapons have always provided most of the dps in MET, and to my knowledge, it hasn't restricted playstyles. You still can play a full adept or engineer. It might not be as powerful as an Infiltrator, but it's still damn effective, especially if the builds optimized. Why only shooty classes? I don't want gods of destruction in ANY classes. Not that it's very important if we really are going to have a classless system... And I beg to differ, you can do plenty of things with only three powers. I get that you want more, but saying you can barely do anything with only 3 powers in untrue. Again, ME3MP is proof to the contrary.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 13, 2017 19:21:45 GMT
Yeah, I'm not at all a fan of the deconstruction of the class system. Throughout the trilogy, it really enhanced my role-play - but I'm not one to re-spec or take bonus powers that don't gel with the class I'm playing. I hope it will be viable in MEA to stick to a single class. I guess we'll see. Indeed. I've played plenty of games with classless systems. but this whole transmorpher-implant thing combined with a three power limit seems to undermine the entire point of being classless.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 13, 2017 19:25:41 GMT
]If the powers are so effective you can basically not use said weapon, but still have it, you have a double advantage on the one who's only main power is to enhance the damage of their weapon, not to mention you actually need to aim with a weapon. The best weapons in MP, like the arc pistol, required that the player made consistent headshots to get full value out of it. You might disagree, but I'm of the opinion that skill should be rewarded. Casters barely need to aim their powers, yet they can use the same weapons as soldiers or infiltrators and benefit from the headshot bonus as well. So either weapons need to be nerfed so that casters don't have that double-advantage, but then, weapon-oriented builds will suffer from it, or you nerf the powers somehow (longer cooldowns, less effective...), so that shooty classes have a reason to be picked over casters. What do you mean? Weapons have always provided most of the dps in MET, and to my knowledge, it hasn't restricted playstyles. You still can play a full adept or engineer. It might not be as powerful as an Infiltrator, but it's still damn effective, especially if the builds optimized. Why only shooty classes? I don't want gods of destruction in ANY classes. Not that it's very important if we really are going to have a classless system... And I beg to differ, you can do plenty of things with only three powers. I get that you want more, but saying you can barely do anything with only 3 powers in untrue. Again, ME3MP is proof to the contrary. Umm...powers are getting longer cooldowns in MEA... So wait, weapons have the best DPS in Mass Effect, but we still need "encouragement" to use them so shooty classes won't be sidelined in favor of casters. Wat? You understand that statistically, soldier was by far the most popular class for Shepard, right?
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spacebeetle
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 13, 2017 20:59:52 GMT
Yeah, I'm not at all a fan of the deconstruction of the class system. Throughout the trilogy, it really enhanced my role-play - but I'm not one to re-spec or take bonus powers that don't gel with the class I'm playing. I hope it will be viable in MEA to stick to a single class. I guess we'll see. Or at least I hope it will be viable (satisfaction wise) to focus on one setup. Playing a master of none isn't really my cup of tea: If I must go to glass cannon build, I'll go it, I just hope it will allow for some "personality".
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Post by goishen on Jan 13, 2017 21:13:34 GMT
I would much rather have explosions (tech/biotic) out there in the ether waiting for us to discover them. This is what brought new gameplay to ME3MP, IMO. Because it was, "Wow, did I do that? How?" *play again for four hours* Still never figured it out. I thought throw was a useless power unless you were getting husks off you.
Now? Hah. Throw does * a lot* more than that. EDIT : Why is it that I'm constantly forgetting words in the middle of sentences? FTA.
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spacebeetle
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 13, 2017 21:13:55 GMT
The thing I don't like about only having 3 powers is, it means they are trying to force you into their whole new "omg look no classes!" system. Where if you are constantly switching out classes, it just makes your character feel less realistic imo. Just another, "I can do everything" type character. I quite liked when the classes limited you to certain skills. You had to weigh the pros and cons of each class and go with what you wanted your character to be. (Also, made the idea of replaying the game more attractive in my opinion. If I can do everything in the first playthrough, there's no need.) And it just makes logical sense in a balance sort of way. If you're amazing in biotics, that's where you've spent your training time and thus you lack in skill with what you've neglected (weapons). Just not a fan. I already have to force myself to stick to just certain trees in games like skyrim and fallout... gotta do the same in ME now too. Le sigh. My point of view it's a bit different: setting aside the transition to (probably) multiplayer mechanics, I fear the devaluation of "charisma" for the identity of our PC. I mean, I like to play... vanguard (let's say) and as a vanguard I had certain limitation and certain strength in the ME:trilogy (MP included). I did certain things because I liked them and avoided others for the opposite reasons (sniper rifles). Playing ME:A I would probably go for the same logic: if I want to play infiltrator this time, I wouldn’t bother with singularity or reave. If to lose the limitations I have to flatten my strength… well, I don’t consider it a nice trade off. What I fear is having to juggle an anonymous infiltrator or an anonymous engineer, instead of a glass cannon (N7 shadow), or a buffer/debuffer powerhouse.
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