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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 14:01:46 GMT
I hope so really, but I don't think it will be like that sadly.. I also liked how in ME1 and ME2 your squad could be with you in the hub areas and sometimes commented on some things.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 8, 2016 14:01:59 GMT
I just hate The Witcher 3 putting me into a cutscene just so I can browse a shop inventory (and every other games that does it). So no, sorry, I don't want everything to be a cutscene in MEA. If cinematic animations aren't needed, I don't see the point of facial close up. They bring no immersion to me, they just make the game feel even more like an interactive-movie that I'm watching instead of playing. I personally liked DAI way of doing it, it was less creepy than ME3 hearing someone talking, picking up a mission and going back to them saying "here I think this is what you wanted" at least. When it comes to Witcher I have to admit too that the interface for conversations sucks. The cinematics are pretty good if a little slow in the long run but choosing dialogue at least on PS4 feels bad. I don't like how it's a list of options and how the "choice" options are highlighted with yellow while the optional dialogues are in white. For one, half the dialogues would look like this on a BioWare wheel: That's not really that interesting as far as choices go. You get to pick between exposition and Geralt's stock response. If the game was main story only that would be fine, but for the side-quests and how many different themes and genres the game explores in its open-world context it's very lame how linear side-quests can get, but only if you're the impatient type like me, since they all (or mostly all) have great stories in them and actual context beyond checking a box and getting "quest complete". Secondly though, browsing through the options on a list feels bad and sometimes I would pick "goodbye" or simply a wrong choice because of how sluggish the dialogue menu feels in that game. I cannot stress enough how much I fucking love the BioWare dialogue wheel even with its shortcomings of morally good being on the top-right and morally bad being at the bottom-right etc. But it always lets you choose the next decision just a few seconds before the current spoken dialogue finishes, giving you an opportunity to keep the flow as if it's a real scene in a movie or something. In Witcher 3, the dialogue always halts before the choices even appear and it creates a bad sense of pacing. Along with the linear nature of dialogue and side-quests in TW3 and well, maybe the game gets just a tad too much credit sometimes, don't you think? That said, I still love it. It does so many things well, especially in depicting its world and being generally impressive to look at; something BioWare has only gotten worse at in the last 5 years, but I digress.
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Post by fialka on Dec 8, 2016 15:15:18 GMT
I really hope they don't repeat DAI's conversation system. I know the devs said they did it because it allowed for more dialogue, but what's the point if that dialogue is with a character I feel zero connection to? The 'click and talk' approach is fine for minor NPCs with ambient greetings or merchants I just want to buy something from, or a 'Hey, Player' when that character has no new dialogue at the moment (remember having to go through Garrus's 'thank you' convo again in ME1?). But when it's a random NPC I'm supposed to care about enough to do a quest for, or one I talk to repeatedly, I want to see that person's face. As others have said, it doesn't have to be a fully animated cutscene - save those for the important stuff. Just zooming the camera in on the speakers' faces is fine. Otherwise I feel totally disconnected, and in a Bioware game where the story is carried in a large part by the people involved, that has a very negative impact on my game experience.
I mean, we had this awesome cast of colorful characters that were really fun to talk to in Skyhold (the cynical dwarven bartender, Dagna our adorable resident super-nerd, our crazy 'bleeding is the future!' medic). But I barely knew what most of them looked like. I'd have these great conversations with my companions and advisers, but I was forced to watch them from like twenty feet away. In general I enjoyed Inquisition a lot. It certainly had its flaws, but one thing they absolutely got right was its cast of characters. I also thought they did a good job with the major side quest for each region. Unfortunately I didn't get to feel as immersed as I wanted to in either because of those impersonal conversations with NPCs I was forced to watch from a distance. A shame too, since Frostbite allows for some really great character design. Shame we barely got to see it up close.
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Post by peebee on Dec 8, 2016 15:38:58 GMT
I really hope they don't repeat DAI's conversation system. I know the devs said they did it because it allowed for more dialogue, but what's the point if that dialogue is with a character I feel zero connection to? The 'click and talk' approach is fine for minor NPCs with ambient greetings or merchants I just want to buy something from, or a 'Hey, Player' when that character has no new dialogue at the moment (remember having to go through Garrus's 'thank you' convo again in ME1?). But when it's a random NPC I'm supposed to care about enough to do a quest for, or one I talk to repeatedly, I want to see that person's face. As others have said, it doesn't have to be a fully animated cutscene - save those for the important stuff. Just zooming the camera in on the speakers' faces is fine. Otherwise I feel totally disconnected, and in a Bioware game where the story is carried in a large part by the people involved, that has a very negative impact on my game experience. I mean, we had this awesome cast of colorful characters that were really fun to talk to in Skyhold (the cynical dwarven bartender, Dagna our adorable resident super-nerd, our crazy 'bleeding is the future!' medic). But I barely knew what most of them looked like. I'd have these great conversations with my companions and advisers, but I was forced to watch them from like twenty feet away. In general I enjoyed Inquisition a lot. It certainly had its flaws, but one thing they absolutely got right was its cast of characters. I also thought they did a good job with the major side quest for each region. Unfortunately I didn't get to feel as immersed as I wanted to in either because of those impersonal conversations with NPCs I was forced to watch from a distance. A shame too, since Frostbite allows for some really great character design. Shame we barely got to see it up close. Agreed, they felt very impersonal and consequently unimportant, making it hard to pay attention, I'd much rather they zoom in on the characters.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 8, 2016 16:28:12 GMT
I just hate The Witcher 3 putting me into a cutscene just so I can browse a shop inventory (and every other games that does it). So no, sorry, I don't want everything to be a cutscene in MEA. If cinematic animations aren't needed, I don't see the point of facial close up. They bring no immersion to me, they just make the game feel even more like an interactive-movie that I'm watching instead of playing. I personally liked DAI way of doing it, it was less creepy than ME3 hearing someone talking, picking up a mission and going back to them saying "here I think this is what you wanted" at least. When it comes to Witcher I have to admit too that the interface for conversations sucks. The cinematics are pretty good if a little slow in the long run but choosing dialogue at least on PS4 feels bad. I don't like how it's a list of options and how the "choice" options are highlighted with yellow while the optional dialogues are in white. For one, half the dialogues would look like this on a BioWare wheel: That's not really that interesting as far as choices go. You get to pick between exposition and Geralt's stock response. If the game was main story only that would be fine, but for the side-quests and how many different themes and genres the game explores in its open-world context it's very lame how linear side-quests can get, but only if you're the impatient type like me, since they all (or mostly all) have great stories in them and actual context beyond checking a box and getting "quest complete". Secondly though, browsing through the options on a list feels bad and sometimes I would pick "goodbye" or simply a wrong choice because of how sluggish the dialogue menu feels in that game. I cannot stress enough how much I fucking love the BioWare dialogue wheel even with its shortcomings of morally good being on the top-right and morally bad being at the bottom-right etc. But it always lets you choose the next decision just a few seconds before the current spoken dialogue finishes, giving you an opportunity to keep the flow as if it's a real scene in a movie or something. In Witcher 3, the dialogue always halts before the choices even appear and it creates a bad sense of pacing. Along with the linear nature of dialogue and side-quests in TW3 and well, maybe the game gets just a tad too much credit sometimes, don't you think? That said, I still love it. It does so many things well, especially in depicting its world and being generally impressive to look at; something BioWare has only gotten worse at in the last 5 years, but I digress. Good point on The Witcher 3 dialogues showing up after someone said his line. That's probably part of my issue with it. I do believe the game gets too much credit and its kinda annoy me that many seems to just want reskinned TW3 RPGs now just because the Baron's quest had a big impact on them, but that's another discussion for another thread. I don't exactly mind the list for dialogues, because I play on the PC and I can select the entries via the keyboard. I also don't have any issue with a dialogue wheel, just some of the paraphrasing that usually comes with it. Really, if you do not want to write the actual text, do like Alpha Protocol and write the intention of the lines. At least that way, I'll have a better understanding what I'm getting into.
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Post by Shaftell on Dec 8, 2016 17:06:33 GMT
Maybe the reason DAI dialogue scenes were not up to par is because it was limited by older consoles. MEA won't have that problem and the only reason the DAI dialogue scenes would exist is due to the developer's choice.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 8, 2016 17:41:23 GMT
I think it really depends on the encounter. For basic "I wanna browse your space curios" and such, I don't need a close up shot-reverse-shot. If the writers throw in some kind of dialogue where this interaction could be more meaningful or amusing (for example: Shepard getting drunk off of ryncol), then yes, I'd like the animators to put a bit of effort into that. There are some sequences where an "outside" view might work rather well, like when speaking to Ann Bryson in the lab in Leviathan. Granted, you don't select dialogue there, but Inquisition proves that this can be done the same way dialogue is accomplished in party banter.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 9, 2016 0:04:11 GMT
I doubt we will see a DA I style dialog wheel outside of cutscenes but more in favor of the 'press x, stuff happens' approach from ME 3, where you can even have unimportant conversations with you and your people on the Normandy.
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Post by theflyingzamboni on Dec 9, 2016 0:21:05 GMT
Honestly, the way they did it in DA:I, they'd practically have been better off just doing an old-style isometric RPG with text-only dialogue. You couldn't see anyone's faces or expressions anyway, so they might as well have bagged the whole 3D, VO thing and given the expanded choice options that text-only allows. That half-assed nonsense is just the worst of both worlds: the lack of visual body-language/facial emotion of isometric RPGs with the limited choices of cinematic RPGs.
Hopefully that's another lesson they took from DA:I, and they'll go back in for the fully cinematic style of ME1/2 and DA2.
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Post by warbaby2 on Dec 9, 2016 0:35:01 GMT
Honestly, the way they did it in DA:I, they'd practically have been better off just doing an old-style isometric RPG with text-only dialogue. You couldn't see anyone's faces or expressions anyway, so they might as well have bagged the whole 3D, VO thing and given the expanded choice options that text-only allows. That half-assed nonsense is just the worst of both worlds: the lack of visual body-language/facial emotion of isometric RPGs with the limited choices of cinematic RPGs. Hopefully that's another lesson they took from DA:I, and they'll go back in for the fully cinematic style of ME1/2 and DA2. Well, they already did it like that in ME3 and DAI... not sure they will go back.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 9, 2016 0:45:41 GMT
Honestly, the way they did it in DA:I, they'd practically have been better off just doing an old-style isometric RPG with text-only dialogue. You couldn't see anyone's faces or expressions anyway, so they might as well have bagged the whole 3D, VO thing and given the expanded choice options that text-only allows. That half-assed nonsense is just the worst of both worlds: the lack of visual body-language/facial emotion of isometric RPGs with the limited choices of cinematic RPGs. Hopefully that's another lesson they took from DA:I, and they'll go back in for the fully cinematic style of ME1/2 and DA2. Well, they already did it like that in ME3 and DAI... not sure they will go back.yeah, Yeah, what they'll do, at best, is reduce this type of convo.
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Post by crossngen on Dec 9, 2016 1:05:40 GMT
It was either a dev, or Shinobi (most likely) that confirmed the DAI system is returning, but to a far more lesser extent than in DAI, so we'll see much less of it.
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Post by Vall on Dec 9, 2016 1:13:27 GMT
DAI convos work pretty well if you mod camera distance to be closer...you shouldn't have to do that of course, but the option is there.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 9, 2016 1:14:31 GMT
DAI convos work pretty well if you mod camera distance to be closer...you shouldn't have to do that of course, but the option is there. "That's just my opinion though, no need to spread it around." For PC users mind you. That's not an optimal solution.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 9, 2016 1:20:55 GMT
Maybe the reason DAI dialogue scenes were not up to par is because it was limited by older consoles. MEA won't have that problem and the only reason the DAI dialogue scenes would exist is due to the developer's choice. That is 100% not the issue. The dialogue system is very simple mechanically both in cutscenes and outside of cutscenes. In ME2 BioWare made the rule of "the hand of god" which means that whereas they made many procedurally generated scenes in ME1, in ME2 and all future games they decided that every scene no matter how stock or procedural the cinematic angles were it had to be touched by an animator to some extent, which meant the overall workload went up. It also meant cutscenes looked absolutely stunning in ME2 and also in ME3 whenever there were any and while DA:I had some sloppyness they generally got it right in the bigger moments. But the way the non-cinema camera works is 100% either by design or a budget limitation and not hardware because the mechaic is really, really simple. There are some vectors to the camera that make it rotate in a certain way so it's focusing on the characters no matter how you turn it (that's the intent anyway) but it's off. Something as simple as designing a unified camera system for conversations across the entire game that work in the same way and they misplaced the pivot, zoomed too far out and aimed it too high up. Those are subtle details that just annoy you over the course of a game. A little bit at first but nothing special, but after 80 hours you're like "c'mon, how hard can it be?"
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 9, 2016 1:34:57 GMT
I think they mentioned about a budget limitation/using that type of increasing the numbers of dialogues. It doesn't matter much though, the DA team already said they were going to tone down the number of it for the next game. the MEA team likely did the same.
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Post by kino on Dec 9, 2016 1:47:58 GMT
I suspect it'll depend on the importance of the character, in regard to the story/mission. I'm okay with that actually. Providing a cinematic for every interaction isn't necessary for me.
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Post by Shaftell on Dec 9, 2016 4:16:26 GMT
I would hope every quest, whether big or small, would lead to a cut scene conversation.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Dec 9, 2016 8:39:32 GMT
My problem with the DAI non cinematic camera is that I couldn't see the npcs faces. I installed a mod that zoomed the camera in and it was so much better, with so many minor npcs it was like 'wow that's what you look like?'
I'd like them to do more of the cinematics/one-two camera angles, but if they do insist on doing the DAI thing I hope they atleast build in a zoom feature. Seeing the person your talking too's face makes it so much more involved and the character more empathisable.
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Post by correctamundo on Dec 9, 2016 15:06:15 GMT
I think the DAI type of dialogues will still be present, but far less then DAI. it should be noted as well that DAI got it from ME3 ;-).
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 9, 2016 19:30:15 GMT
I don't care either way, because I find alternative ways to view the interactions that feed into my immersion. The argument for immersion goes both ways. Being able to move your character keeps the dialogue firmly in your control, which can potentially be more immersive than being forced to watch a scripted cutscene if you are imagining yourself as the character rather than an observer. If you're not imagining yourself as your character, then you're not roleplaying your character. You're just watching a story unfold, and so your immersion takes a hit because you're not willing to turn the page yourself and use your imagination. That's totally fine, but it's not the whole experience, and considering the reasons you enjoy the cutscenes, it's a bit ironic. Frankly I think many people here do not feel immersion because they aren't opening themselves to it. There are many ways to integrate yourself into the game. Relying on a camera to do the work for you is just complacency on your part. Do you really require being rooted to a spot and have alternating camera angles to enjoy the game? I never played them, but D&D games never had cameras and videos either. How did its players get immersed in the setting? This ties into my belief that people are just not bothering to use their imagination anymore. Still, cutscenes are useful. They have many advantages which can enhance the story where appropriate. So an approach like DAI is fine by me.
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Post by hostaman on Dec 10, 2016 10:15:50 GMT
I just hate The Witcher 3 putting me into a cutscene just so I can browse a shop inventory (and every other games that does it). So no, sorry, I don't want everything to be a cutscene in MEA. If cinematic animations aren't needed, I don't see the point of facial close up. They bring no immersion to me, they just make the game feel even more like an interactive-movie that I'm watching instead of playing. I personally liked DAI way of doing it, it was less creepy than ME3 hearing someone talking, picking up a mission and going back to them saying "here I think this is what you wanted" at least. The Witcher 3 definitely gets "Most over hyped game of the year" award. The slow, clunky cut-scenes turned me off straight away and I dumped the game, never to return. ME2 got the balance right, but I do agree that there's too many throw-away conversations in DAI. One of the issues seems to be that the Dev's sometimes fail to realize how players will connect with the game. Like the Harding romance for instance. She was just a minor character but many players really warmed to her and wanted a larger experience. For me, the benchmark is similar - Don't take too many cues from DAI, and try to bring the immersion back to ME2 levels.
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Post by ssanyesz on Dec 10, 2016 13:20:59 GMT
Jade Empire and even KOTOR1 had cinematic conversations, now they want to go back before 2003, why? Why do they even think about it?
SWTOR for an MMO has a very nice cinematic feeling to it, if anything i want more, not less.
Sadly when an MMO has more role playing options in conversations than a single player RPG, then i think something is wrong and prorities have shifted, but shouldn't have.
What i'm saying is that i rather have fewer (1-2) planets, but more lively content and more and better conversations on the remaining ones. Quality over quantity.
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Post by Mir Aven on Dec 10, 2016 15:12:25 GMT
What I mean by that is for example when having conversations with NPC's in Witcher, it loads a cut scene regardless of who you're talking to(important NPC or not important) Or do you think it'll be more like Dragon Age Inquisition where when you talk to NPC's you're just standing there and you're able to control the camera but it doesn't look very cinematic. It's obviously not that important of a feature but why not discuss it. I personally like the cut scenes in order to fully increase the immersion. Sadly, I think it'll be like DAI. We could already see the start of the trend in ME 3. Personally I hated it. It heavely impacted the enjoyment of playing those games for me.
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jamiecotc
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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jamiecotc
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
JamieCOTC
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Post by jamiecotc on Dec 10, 2016 17:50:13 GMT
I hated the noncinematic scenes in ME3 and hated them even more in DAI. I can see their necessity due to budget or for dialogue during a fight or some form of action, but overall I loathed them. I did, however, like the banter between companions and the Inquisitor when s/he got to respond.
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