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Post by Shaftell on Dec 8, 2016 4:53:18 GMT
What I mean by that is for example when having conversations with NPC's in Witcher, it loads a cut scene regardless of who you're talking to(important NPC or not important)
Or do you think it'll be more like Dragon Age Inquisition where when you talk to NPC's you're just standing there and you're able to control the camera but it doesn't look very cinematic. It's obviously not that important of a feature but why not discuss it. I personally like the cut scenes in order to fully increase the immersion.
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Post by zarrokhai on Dec 8, 2016 5:23:26 GMT
I didn't like the DA:I method to be honest, but I can see why they did it (cut back cost). Still, as you said it doesn't help with immersion and I would prefer cutscenes with every dialogue.
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Post by fenris on Dec 8, 2016 5:55:10 GMT
I really liked how they did it in DA:I, because sometimes the conversations were in rather hostile places and could that way be interrupted. Won't really matter all that much to me, but I hope they stick with it.
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Post by vit246 on Dec 8, 2016 6:15:13 GMT
I absolutely hated the way DAI did it. The conversations felt so detached and impersonal as hell. I didn't care about any of the NPCs. I don't remember their faces. The camera was wonky. NPCS walked around and got in the way. I care more about the NPCS in DA Origins. Bring back cinematic.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Dec 8, 2016 6:55:17 GMT
This is what I wrote about this topic before, since I don't want to/don't have time to type it all again:
(Comment about it being partly a resources-issue) Maybe, but the explanations for it from devs hinted more at it being a design experiment. One that clearly failed for a lot of people, including me. Besides, it shouldn't actually be all that costly. How else would DA:O, DA2, ME1 etc. all have the cinematic system?
To avoid confusion, because there is a lot of it regarding this topic: When I'm talking about cinematic conversation, I'm not talking about cutscenes. Those are indeed more resource-intensive, because they have lots of animations and movement. But cinematic conversation is when the camera simply switches perspectives between 2 or more characters in a conversation, letting you see their faces and expressions. Generally, they're standing still.
So with that in mind, it makes sense that nearly all of the conversations in previous Bioware games were done in this style (or cutscenes). It's not very resource-intensive to set 2 fixed camera points and then alternate between them. It's a matter of coordinates and a bit of code.
Now, this is the part where some will call me out for being presumptuous about game development. But here's the thing: Fallout 4 even has cinematic conversations as a toggle option. And since you can talk to companions anywhere in the world, that means the game will automatically set coordinates for where the camera should be in relation to each character, even having one close-up face angle and one less close torso angle for each.
So all Bioware has to do, if it really is a problem (which I seriously doubt considering past games), is be innovative and find a solution like Fallout did. Even make it a toggle for people who prefer the zoomed out version if they want.
I adamantly disliked the zoomed-out camera in DA:I for a plethora of reasons, so I'm definitely hoping it's scrapped for ME:A, at least for 95% of the conversations. At least for the companion/main character ones, please.
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Post by jediguardian on Dec 8, 2016 7:07:08 GMT
Well, I don't mind if some talk are non-cut scene.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 7:10:22 GMT
The lack of a cinematic focus during conversations with NPCs is one of many reasons why I only have one complete playthrough of DA:I. It kills immersion, and I'd hate to see it return for ME:A.
Actually the less ME:A is like DA:I in general, the better.
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Post by Shaftell on Dec 8, 2016 7:49:27 GMT
This is what I wrote about this topic before, since I don't want to/don't have time to type it all again: (Comment about it being partly a resources-issue) Maybe, but the explanations for it from devs hinted more at it being a design experiment. One that clearly failed for a lot of people, including me. Besides, it shouldn't actually be all that costly. How else would DA:O, DA2, ME1 etc. all have the cinematic system? To avoid confusion, because there is a lot of it regarding this topic: When I'm talking about cinematic conversation, I'm not talking about cutscenes. Those are indeed more resource-intensive, because they have lots of animations and movement. But cinematic conversation is when the camera simply switches perspectives between 2 or more characters in a conversation, letting you see their faces and expressions. Generally, they're standing still. So with that in mind, it makes sense that nearly all of the conversations in previous Bioware games were done in this style (or cutscenes). It's not very resource-intensive to set 2 fixed camera points and then alternate between them. It's a matter of coordinates and a bit of code. Now, this is the part where some will call me out for being presumptuous about game development. But here's the thing: Fallout 4 even has cinematic conversations as a toggle option. And since you can talk to companions anywhere in the world, that means the game will automatically set coordinates for where the camera should be in relation to each character, even having one close-up face angle and one less close torso angle for each. So all Bioware has to do, if it really is a problem (which I seriously doubt considering past games), is be innovative and find a solutions like Fallout did. Even make it a toggle for people who prefer the zoomed out version if they want. I adamantly disliked the zoomed-out camera in DA:I for a plethora of reasons, so I'm definitely hoping it's scrapped for ME:A, at least for 95% of the conversations. At least for the companion/main character ones, please. Yeah I see this coming down to whether or not the developers want to do it. It can't be that difficult to pull off and there should be nothing holding them back. I understand the limitation with Dragon Age Inquisition due to it being released on older consoles but there's no excuse to not do it UNLESS it's something the developers prefer.
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Post by hivemind on Dec 8, 2016 8:10:15 GMT
Somebody should ask developers on twitter. If it would be like in ME2-3 and Witcher 3 then they will tell it right away, but if it would be like in DAI then they will be silent on it. They well aware of how community hated in DAI.
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Post by hivemind on Dec 8, 2016 8:14:52 GMT
So all Bioware has to do, if it really is a problem (which I seriously doubt considering past games), is be innovative and find a solutions like Fallout did. Even make it a toggle for people who prefer the zoomed out version if they want. They don't even have to innovate anything - they had such system in DAO and ME1. It's so called "stage-system". Witcher 3 used the same system btw
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Post by bshep on Dec 8, 2016 8:23:30 GMT
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 8, 2016 8:27:11 GMT
I think the DAI type of dialogues will still be present, but far less then DAI.
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Post by javeart on Dec 8, 2016 8:53:54 GMT
I think the DAI type of dialogues will still be present, but far less then DAI. I tink so too, and I settle for that. Still, it's one of the things I dislike more of DAI (right after power requirements, I'd say) and I'd love to see it gone entirely.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 8:54:35 GMT
To be honest I dont mind them skipping a cut scene now and again. What really irked me was the way it was done.
NPC: "I've lost my sword in that cave over there"
Inquisitor: "Right what seems to be the problem"?
NPC "I've lost my sword in that cave over there"
Inquisitor: "You've lost your sword in that cave over there"
NPC: ....Yes thats what I just said.
Inquisitor: "Right then I'll go fetch it for you"
NPC: "Right then"
Bioware... this is not how normal conversations happen.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 8, 2016 8:59:14 GMT
I think it will be a combination of the two.
I'm expecting the procedural animations will be better than in DAI and there will be plenty of cutscenes.
But a larger world will mean some development and budgetary limitations.
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Post by wright1978 on Dec 8, 2016 9:34:22 GMT
Really hope there isn't a repeat of DAI approach.
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Post by jediguardian on Dec 8, 2016 9:36:08 GMT
If I remember correctly, one of developer answer on twitter that MEA will have this type less than DAI.
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Post by Shaftell on Dec 8, 2016 10:34:17 GMT
If I remember correctly, one of developer answer on twitter that MEA will have this type less than DAI. I feel like most of the dialogue with NPC's should be like this.There is no reason to not do it fully if they've already committed to a few NPC character interactions leading to "cut-scenes". Witcher did it the best and I hope they go that route.
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Post by nedstarkshead on Dec 8, 2016 10:50:42 GMT
I hope it's mostly uninterruptible (from the surrounding environment I mean) cut scenes because I always got nervous I was about to get shanked when talking to someone in DA:I. Fallout 4 was bad for that too, you'd be talking away and then Mr *beep beep beep* would appear from no where a blast you to the sky.
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Post by Balsam Beige on Dec 8, 2016 12:14:11 GMT
The dai approach was awful and lazy design imo. I say delay the game, whatever it takes to put in proper cinematic cutscenes. This is a Triple A game, such corner cutting is not or should not be acceptable.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 8, 2016 12:35:21 GMT
Lack of cinematic focus was one of the worst aspects...and decisions of DAI imo. What I learned from that is any content initiated that way was not worth doing. So maybe that's the cue in MEA on which missions to ignore. All said, I expect 70% of the game will be like that, because it really seems like MEA is virtually a carbon copy of DAI despite the complaints by the multitudes aspects like this are much despised. MEA will really clinch it for me as to whether Bio is actually listening to it's fanbase as a collective whole or just the ones that tell them what they want to hear. I guess we'll see.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 8, 2016 12:47:26 GMT
Lack of cinematic focus was one of the worst aspects...and decisions of DAI imo. What I learned from that is any content initiated that way was not worth doing. So maybe that's the cue in MEA on which missions to ignore. All said, I expect 70% of the game will be like that, because it really seems like MEA is virtually a carbon copy of DAI despite the complaints by the multitudes aspects like this are much despised. MEA will really clinch it for me as to whether Bio is actually listening to it's fanbase as a collective whole or just the ones that tell them what they want to hear. I guess we'll see. I don't think (and hope) it'll be DAI's carbon copy, but we'll see.
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Post by azarhal on Dec 8, 2016 12:47:55 GMT
I just hate The Witcher 3 putting me into a cutscene just so I can browse a shop inventory (and every other games that does it). So no, sorry, I don't want everything to be a cutscene in MEA.
If cinematic animations aren't needed, I don't see the point of facial close up. They bring no immersion to me, they just make the game feel even more like an interactive-movie that I'm watching instead of playing.
I personally liked DAI way of doing it, it was less creepy than ME3 hearing someone talking, picking up a mission and going back to them saying "here I think this is what you wanted" at least.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 8, 2016 13:47:45 GMT
I don't think a non-cinematic dialogue system would at all be doomed to fail like it (IMHO) did in DA:I. The problem with DA:I is how fucking sloppy it is for a main mechanic. The camera pivot is off so the characters are slightly out of focus, cinematically speaking. I get the desperate need to zoom in or at least decrease FOV and put the pivot down a couple of however big the scale is on the Y-axis. Second thing is that the characters always, always, always have the same gesture they repeat over and over that isn't really that well animated in the first place and they stand in place. Your companions can't stand still or at least move closer to the NPC you're talking to when they chime in. And then, it would take 2-5 seconds for the system to load in most conversations, so you press X or whatever and just go "Why isn't it starting?". It was just a bad and quickly slapped together system and i don't get how they could implement a core mechanic so poorly. For something that's going to be featured across an 80-hour adventure it's just not good enough. If they reinvent it so that it zooms in so you can clearly see the faces and turning the camera clearly and applies with rules of cinematography (as much as possible) and maybe sometimes let the NPCs walk back and forth or do more than 1 gesture. Bam, fixed. I'm for the idea of having a dialogue system where we can quickly leave and still being in the sense of "gameplay". They just need to make it more compelling to use. As it was in DA:I I prefered it to ME3's lame no-interaction dialogue which I really hope was only done due to constraints and not because some asshat at BioWare thought it would make a better experience. However, preferring it isn't saying much as I hated both systems. They have to do it right or drop it and go back to exclusively cinematics. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Side-rant: Cinematic, interactive dialogue is 70% of the reason I was drawn to play the first Mass Effect games. It's an understatement to say I was extremely disappointed with how much ME3 toiled with what IMHO made the series what it was. Trading off interaction and then skimping on cinematics whilist railroading the critical path into some wannabe Uncharted/Michael Bay crap was so disappointing. A great example of when a developer doesn't play to its own strengths. BioWare's animations and overall style can't compete with what Naughty Dog has been doing. They can only become a less impressive version of the AAA summer blockbuster campaign when they try because their strengths just aren't in making impressive cinematics; it's in writing and having lots of cinematics where things get introspective. The whole time I was playing ME3 I just kept thinking how I couldn't appreciate what they were trying to do because I had already played Uncharted 2, a way tighter game on all fronts except the branching dialogue, side quests and all those things BioWare mastered with ME1 and ME2 but nope, they wanted to go "Movie-style" which was the biggest mistake they could've made next to outright making a movie instead or deliberately making a bad game.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 8, 2016 13:58:46 GMT
DAI's conversation system was just such a load of sloppiness that I hope nothing of it reappears in MEA. The camera was too far out, your companions often walked in circles and bumped either you or the person you were speaking to around, and worst of all, if NPCs initiated a dialogue, they often kept walking around and interrupted their own conversation if you didn't chase after them between selecting your replies.
That and the side quest conversations themselves, which went like this: NPC: "Hello unknown person who just barged into my house, I have a problem." You: "Did I understand your problem right?" NPC: "Yes, this is my problem." You: "Okay." / "Don't care."
I'd rather click on a note board and read job offers.
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