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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 10, 2016 23:22:01 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda's Lingering Questions.
Not much new except Mac elaborates abit on things. He's asked about his reaction to when people compare the game to DA:I btw.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2016 23:37:23 GMT
Forgive me I have watched two very similar videos today and both of them are kind of mixing it up, but I believe this is the one I am thinking of.
It is encouraging from his answers that just maybe they have learned their lesson from Inquisition. At least what I think is the number one biggest problem from the last game. He talks about how each planet has their own story and their own sense of lore and background, which is all well and good. I am excited about it...however it is very similar to what they were mentioning in DA Is run up to release. Now don't get me wrong I appreciated some of that storytelling but it was...incomplete. What he mentioned that excites me is...some of the Side Quests might tie in with the main story. This would be a very, very, good thing because it builds continuity, it builds a sense of your choices mattering, and it was something DA I sorely lacked.
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 11, 2016 0:15:42 GMT
I'm hearing the part where he talks about control scheme for PC, and I just don't get it. He portray the control scheme as a "more complicated thing than you may know" Like how much complicated it can get? I'm no game dev, but of all the difficult things they have to achieve, I doubt control scheme is one of them.
One key that does everything it's bound to have issues, I'm sure they can agree on that looking at ME3. 100+ keys on a keyboard and you're saying that it's "complicated" , how exactly? One melee button, one cover button, one run button, one use button. It's not that hard. If people can't find where the "F" key is on their KBs then add a "customize key bindings" option in the menus and be done with it. That's how 95% of the games do it, and that's how it works.
Complicated control scheme is when a game has 4 different melees and 2 alternative "run" keys or 4+ weird "alternative fire" buttons with the mouse; like some sort super complex MMO, and even then people make do. In this game controls are pretty straight forward if you ask me. I really do hope they do a decent job with mouse+kb support this time.
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Post by FireAndBlood on Dec 11, 2016 0:37:49 GMT
I'm hearing the part where he talks about control scheme for PC, and I just don't get it. He portray the control scheme as a "more complicated thing than you may know" Like how much complicated it can get? I'm no game dev, but of all the difficult things they have to achieve, I doubt control scheme is one of them. And there is your answer.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 11, 2016 1:05:12 GMT
Well that was encouraging to watch given just how many of the DAI elements I despise...and the hope I have those elements are either fixed or scrubbed entirely from MEA. Of course, the pessimist in me wonders if that is just damage control to calm people such as myself. Here's hoping he's being straight with us.
The whole controller/keyboard+mouse thing he was talking about doesn't really make much sense to me. I'd think keybinding would be a relatively simple and straight forward thing to do. Then again I know less than nothing about making these games, so maybe it is not so simple.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 11, 2016 1:47:41 GMT
Like many of his answers the comment about PC controls was a deflect and misdirect answer. He was asked about whether the PC controls would be up to par for M&K as controller options and his answer was to talk about how the controller scheme changes weekly due to focus-testing and thereby not really addressing the specific question he was asked.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 11, 2016 1:52:05 GMT
Like many of his answers the comment about PC controls was a deflect and misdirect answer. He was asked about whether the PC controls would be up to par for M&K as controller options and his answer was to talk about how the controller scheme changes weekly due to focus-testing and thereby not really addressing the specific question he was asked. AKA they are still making changes.
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Post by CHRrOME on Dec 11, 2016 1:57:51 GMT
I'm hearing the part where he talks about control scheme for PC, and I just don't get it. He portray the control scheme as a "more complicated thing than you may know" Like how much complicated it can get? I'm no game dev, but of all the difficult things they have to achieve, I doubt control scheme is one of them. And there is your answer. And you are?
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 11, 2016 2:26:40 GMT
Like many of his answers the comment about PC controls was a deflect and misdirect answer. He was asked about whether the PC controls would be up to par for M&K as controller options and his answer was to talk about how the controller scheme changes weekly due to focus-testing and thereby not really addressing the specific question he was asked. AKA they are still making changes. Yes, but he could have still specifically talked about mouse and keyboard than to refer to the controller options. Also Gameinformer writes in their coverage article that they saw the M&K interface and it was clearly under development with certain interface items not really being interactible with the mouse etc.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 11, 2016 2:42:48 GMT
Also Gameinformer writes in their coverage article that they saw the M&K interface and it was clearly under development with certain interface items not really being interactible with the mouse etc. And the unfortunate trend continues. which trend?
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Post by RoboticWater on Dec 11, 2016 2:46:26 GMT
And there is your answer. And you are? I am, and yes, control schemes can often be quite difficult. I think the complexity can be more readily perceived when dealing with a controller because it's a very compact device with a limited set of buttons which have a number of discrete tactile operations. It's obvious that the shooting command shouldn't be bound to the D-pad, but does it feel awkward when the jump command is bound to clicking in the thumbstick? I suppose it matters how often you have to jump. What happens when you have two abilities used with similar frequency and the only buttons left unbound are the A button and clicking the left tumbstick? It's basically a game of trial and error musical chairs. What happens when you have more actions than buttons? What button combinations work well together? How many combinations is it reasonable to expect the player to remember? However, the same thing can be said about PC. How many actions can we place near the movement keys? Is it reasonable to expect most players to quickly reach the 'Y' key from WASD? How many functions will the player need to access simultaneously to moving? Is a combo key more effective than far away hotkeys? Mass Effect has possibly one of the most annoying control schemes of any game because it's a real time TPS trying to accommodate a bunch of RPG actions. Just finding space for all those binds is difficult enough, but getting them optimized for real time action? Torturous. Andromeda probably has the worst of it too because, as Mac said, BioWare were frequently adding new mechanics for exploration like the jetpack and the scanner.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 3:08:17 GMT
About controls/PC. Nah.. Sorry all, but to me it's just sounds like an excuse.. For example ''Rise of the Tomb Raider'' (or also Deus Ex MD) also have ''complicated'' controls, yet it's very good on PC and very customizable for both controlers and M&K combo. So now I'm worried
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 3:19:38 GMT
I am, and yes, control schemes can often be quite difficult. I think the complexity can be more readily perceived when dealing with a controller because it's a very compact device with a limited set of buttons which have a number of discrete tactile operations. It's obvious that the shooting command shouldn't be bound to the D-pad, but does it feel awkward when the jump command is bound to clicking in the thumbstick? I suppose it matters how often you have to jump. What happens when you have two abilities used with similar frequency and the only buttons left unbound are the A button and clicking the left tumbstick? It's basically a game of trial and error musical chairs. What happens when you have more actions than buttons? What button combinations work well together? How many combinations is it reasonable to expect the player to remember? However, the same thing can be said about PC. How many actions can we place near the movement keys? Is it reasonable to expect most players to quickly reach the 'Y' key from WASD? How many functions will the player need to access simultaneously to moving? Is a combo key more effective than far away hotkeys? Mass Effect has possibly one of the most annoying control schemes of any game because it's a real time TPS trying to accommodate a bunch of RPG actions. Just finding space for all those binds is difficult enough, but getting them optimized for real time action? Torturous. Andromeda probably has the worst of it too because, as Mac said, BioWare were frequently adding new mechanics for exploration like the jetpack and the scanner. The ability to re-bind keys can solve most of these problems, and besides, to some degree you can say that on PC much of this has been answered already: You sprint with Shift, activate with E or F, reload with R, jump with Space, double jump or jetpack with a double click on Space, etc. So at this point you don't really need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to which actions to bind to which keys. This so much this! And there will be still plenty of free keys like Q (for melee?) V (for scanning?), Z (for closer aiming?) X, G, C, B and even TAB for whatever will be needed. P.S. I don't ''mind'' bad controls, as long as I can customize them and / or assign second one if needed.
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Post by RoboticWater on Dec 11, 2016 3:25:01 GMT
I am, and yes, control schemes can often be quite difficult. I think the complexity can be more readily perceived when dealing with a controller because it's a very compact device with a limited set of buttons which have a number of discrete tactile operations. It's obvious that the shooting command shouldn't be bound to the D-pad, but does it feel awkward when the jump command is bound to clicking in the thumbstick? I suppose it matters how often you have to jump. What happens when you have two abilities used with similar frequency and the only buttons left unbound are the A button and clicking the left tumbstick? It's basically a game of trial and error musical chairs. What happens when you have more actions than buttons? What button combinations work well together? How many combinations is it reasonable to expect the player to remember? However, the same thing can be said about PC. How many actions can we place near the movement keys? Is it reasonable to expect most players to quickly reach the 'Y' key from WASD? How many functions will the player need to access simultaneously to moving? Is a combo key more effective than far away hotkeys? Mass Effect has possibly one of the most annoying control schemes of any game because it's a real time TPS trying to accommodate a bunch of RPG actions. Just finding space for all those binds is difficult enough, but getting them optimized for real time action? Torturous. Andromeda probably has the worst of it too because, as Mac said, BioWare were frequently adding new mechanics for exploration like the jetpack and the scanner. The ability to re-bind keys can solve most of these problems, and besides, to some degree you can say that on PC much of this has been answered already: You sprint with Shift, activate with E or F, reload with R, jump with Space, double jump or jetpack with a double click on Space, etc. So at this point you don't really need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to which actions to bind to which keys. Yeah, it's the "etc." that's the real bitch. Like I said, distance to key matters. If you're just tacking on actions to distinct buttons, you're bound to run out of keys within range of WASD, especially with a game like Mass Effect. And again, what if you need to do things concurrent with movement? For example, I've often found sliding in recent shooters to be really awkward on PC because you had to hold down shift to sprint then, while sprinting, hit ctrl. This meant I had to hold shift with my pinky and then roll it downwards to hit ctrl. Not ideal. This stuff doesn't just figure itself out. Also, the default control scheme would hopefully be good enough that re-binding wouldn't be necessary. It's unreasonable to expect the average PC gamer to rebind their keys to have an acceptable control scheme.
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Post by RoboticWater on Dec 11, 2016 3:58:07 GMT
I don't really see the problem, what about C, B, V, N? I can reach all of them very comfortably with my thumb while simultaneously pressing W and Shift. I never have. It's an awkward grip for me to reach accurately in the middle of a fight, but that's besides the point. Andromeda could have any number of actions, potentially more than what can be reasonably accommodated by individual keys. This has been my point the whole time. Control schemes require a lot of trial and error to get right, and that's just for a static code base. New features constantly need to be accommodated. I've never been against rebinding, but Inquisition had rebinding IIRC, so I don't know what the problem is. I was clarifying the fact that making control schemes isn't as straight forward as many may believe.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 11, 2016 4:12:00 GMT
In general, an AAA game that is probably going to sell millions of copies on PC, should have full KB&M support. There's really no excuse for pushing in a half baked control scheme that isn't optimized for KB&M. Mass Effect wasn't really bad in that regard in the past, but what was mentioned about being unable to interact with parts of the UI with the mouse is certainly not ideal, and depending on the particulars could be very annoying. I got the distinct impression because those features weren't done yet, or hell may have been locked out because they just did not want to show them off because of Spoiler reasons. Andraste's dimpled butt chees the game is three months from launch and we do not know how long Game Informer went to BioWare or how old the build they were playing was.
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Post by RoboticWater on Dec 11, 2016 4:20:27 GMT
I was clarifying the fact that making control schemes isn't as straight forward as many may believe. I don't know about straight forward, but then making (good...) video games in general isn't very straight forward. I suspect that compared to other aspects, designing control schemes is somewhat of a minor issue. I wouldn't say so. It's like saying the door handle is merely a minor component of a door. Sure, it has nothing to do with a door's primary function of blocking a threshold, but it's your only means of interaction. I would hope that it's simple, straightforward, and lets you know whether you need to push or pull. Yes, the standard WASD control scheme takes care of basic movement and interaction, but that still leaves a number of choices. How many actions (and which) should be bound to a single key? Should we maintain standards set by other games (e.g. 'g' for grenade) even if it makes the control scheme a little more awkward? What does the average gamer think is a comfortable position? Games are an interactive medium. The tuning the hardware facilitating that interaction is rather important. The code may amount to a Hash Map or something, but the process is more than trivial. It's common practice nowadays to log button presses during QA testing so that when developers go to review the footage, they can see exactly what the tester pressed in real time. If players are accidentally hitting something too many times or are instinctively pressing the wrong button, developers need to adjust.
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Post by goishen on Dec 11, 2016 5:03:15 GMT
I'm hearing the part where he talks about control scheme for PC, and I just don't get it. He portray the control scheme as a "more complicated thing than you may know" Like how much complicated it can get? I'm no game dev, but of all the difficult things they have to achieve, I doubt control scheme is one of them. One key that does everything it's bound to have issues, I'm sure they can agree on that looking at ME3. 100+ keys on a keyboard and you're saying that it's "complicated" , how exactly? One melee button, one cover button, one run button, one use button. It's not that hard. If people can't find where the "F" key is on their KBs then add a "customize key bindings" option in the menus and be done with it. That's how 95% of the games do it, and that's how it works. Complicated control scheme is when a game has 4 different melees and 2 alternative "run" keys or 4+ weird "alternative fire" buttons with the mouse; like some sort super complex MMO, and even then people make do. In this game controls are pretty straight forward if you ask me. I really do hope they do a decent job with mouse+kb support this time. If you've spent any time programming at all, then you know that getting a computer to do something for you is easy. Getting the player to do something is difficult.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 6:00:46 GMT
The vehicle designer for Oblivion & Tron is working on Mass Effect? Yes! Tron Light Cycles
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Post by guanxi on Dec 11, 2016 11:46:03 GMT
I'm hearing the part where he talks about control scheme for PC, and I just don't get it. He portray the control scheme as a "more complicated thing than you may know" Like how much complicated it can get? I'm no game dev, but of all the difficult things they have to achieve, I doubt control scheme is one of them. One key that does everything it's bound to have issues, I'm sure they can agree on that looking at ME3. 100+ keys on a keyboard and you're saying that it's "complicated" , how exactly? One melee button, one cover button, one run button, one use button. It's not that hard. If people can't find where the "F" key is on their KBs then add a "customize key bindings" option in the menus and be done with it. That's how 95% of the games do it, and that's how it works. Complicated control scheme is when a game has 4 different melees and 2 alternative "run" keys or 4+ weird "alternative fire" buttons with the mouse; like some sort super complex MMO, and even then people make do. In this game controls are pretty straight forward if you ask me. I really do hope they do a decent job with mouse+kb support this time. Complicated in the sense that they are constantly coming up with new contextual mechanics like the Scanner which have to be integrated into the existing control schemes which gets especially complicated when you only have 15 buttons to work with on controllers and you are trying to keep it simple and intuitive while constantly receiving focus feedback which proves that it isn't leading to even more changes. I believe he was sincere when he said the control scheme is still undergoing major changes at the moment so it's not something he can talk about right now which is fair enough given it's not exactly his forte.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 11, 2016 12:46:02 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda's Lingering Questions. Not much new except Mac elaborates abit on things. He's asked about his reaction to when people compare the game to DA:I btw. That's the only news in there? I'm not a fan of watching 30 min long videos only to hear "can't tell yet"/"you're gonna like it"/"still being polished".
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Post by ssanyesz on Dec 11, 2016 12:52:27 GMT
I am, and yes, control schemes can often be quite difficult. I think the complexity can be more readily perceived when dealing with a controller because it's a very compact device with a limited set of buttons which have a number of discrete tactile operations. It's obvious that the shooting command shouldn't be bound to the D-pad, but does it feel awkward when the jump command is bound to clicking in the thumbstick? I suppose it matters how often you have to jump. What happens when you have two abilities used with similar frequency and the only buttons left unbound are the A button and clicking the left tumbstick? It's basically a game of trial and error musical chairs. What happens when you have more actions than buttons? What button combinations work well together? How many combinations is it reasonable to expect the player to remember? However, the same thing can be said about PC. How many actions can we place near the movement keys? Is it reasonable to expect most players to quickly reach the 'Y' key from WASD? How many functions will the player need to access simultaneously to moving? Is a combo key more effective than far away hotkeys? Mass Effect has possibly one of the most annoying control schemes of any game because it's a real time TPS trying to accommodate a bunch of RPG actions. Just finding space for all those binds is difficult enough, but getting them optimized for real time action? Torturous. Andromeda probably has the worst of it too because, as Mac said, BioWare were frequently adding new mechanics for exploration like the jetpack and the scanner. The ability to re-bind keys can solve most of these problems, and besides, to some degree you can say that on PC much of this has been answered already: You sprint with Shift, activate with E or F, reload with R, jump with Space, double jump or jetpack with a double click on Space, etc. So at this point you don't really need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to which actions to bind to which keys. Edit: Even when it comes to additional actions and a relatively large number of abilities, there are many games out there that handled this problem successfully already. Personally, I think that nothing really beats the number keys for abilities or choosing gadgets, etc. For me i like classic ME1 controlls: MOUSE - look, LMB - shoot, RMG - zoom ASDW - moving, SPACE - pause/tactical menu, F - activate/use, R - reload, TAB - melee, G - grenade, 1-9 - powers, Q,E - companion power, SHIFT - sprint, CTRL - jump, CTRL+A/S/D - evade/slide M - map, C - character sheet, I - inventory, L - quest log V - hand scanner
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Post by kumazan on Dec 11, 2016 12:54:15 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda's Lingering Questions. Not much new except Mac elaborates abit on things. He's asked about his reaction to when people compare the game to DA:I btw. That's the only news in there? I'm not a fan of watching 30 min long videos only to hear "can't tell yet"/"you're gonna like it"/"still being polished". There's some of that indeed, but I have to give him credit that he does his best to answer the questions without giving out much. He also talks a bit about the codex (bigger, no voiced narration) and how the relationship between the MW species stand and how it could tie to the plot. Not much else though, it's not like it's a critical, must-heard interview.
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Post by Nashimura on Dec 11, 2016 12:55:58 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda's Lingering Questions. Not much new except Mac elaborates abit on things. He's asked about his reaction to when people compare the game to DA:I btw. That's the only news in there? I'm not a fan of watching 30 min long videos only to hear "can't tell yet"/"you're gonna like it"/"still being polished". There is not much of that in there.... they must have ok'd the questions before hand. They did say you will be referred to by first name if you keep the defaults though, that sounds pretty cool.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Dec 11, 2016 13:45:52 GMT
I don't really see the problem, what about C, B, V, N? I can reach all of them very comfortably with my thumb while simultaneously pressing W and Shift. I never have. It's an awkward grip for me to reach accurately in the middle of a fight, but that's besides the point. Andromeda could have any number of actions, potentially more than what can be reasonably accommodated by individual keys. This has been my point the whole time. Control schemes require a lot of trial and error to get right, and that's just for a static code base. New features constantly need to be accommodated. I've never been against rebinding, but Inquisition had rebinding IIRC, so I don't know what the problem is. I was clarifying the fact that making control schemes isn't as straight forward as many may believe. Key placement and rebinding was not the problem in Inquisition, but I'd rather not beat that dead equine again.
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