Trans characters in Mass Effect Andromeda

If you really cared about the survival of western society, you wouldn't be posting about this but instead worrying about real issues of ethnic mortality and participating in politics to eliminate actual problems.

As far as quality of entertainment, if you judge entertainment by the sum of the parts of what is said or included as being inherently good or bad, versus what is learned or discerned in the fun of playing it and enjoying it on the merits it presents,  then you are misjudging things horribly in my opinion. To each their own though. 

ETA: read that this was a joke apparently? I am so confused right now...

I'm fine with the personalities because I think they are pretty diverse for the most part.  You have some typical leading man/lady types (Leliana, Kaidan), some fun light-hearted types (Isabela, Bull, Sera), some bookish nerdy types (Liara, Merrill, Samantha), some broody serious types (Sky, Anders, Fenris).  It's a nice mixture.

The only places where I aww some stereotypes are with the initial bisexual characters, where most of them tend to be the "fun" and "promiscuous" ones.  But, as the numbers increase, this seems to be less of a trend (I wouldn't consider Kaidan or Josephine to fit that trend at all).  I know some people call Dorian a stereotype because he's fashionable and kind of bitchy.  I get that, but I don't see an issue with it.  In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing some more femme guys and really butch lesbians.  I hear the argument that they are stereotypes, but stereotypes exist for a reason.  I know plenty of really butch lesbians and really femme guys.  They exist in real life, so I don't know why we need to totally avoid characters like that.  If those were the only characters that showed up, it would be an issue.  But it's an issue to pretend that the only LGBT people are those who don't act like that. 

I don't welcome an emphasis on sexuality necessarily.  I welcome increased LGBT characters.  Unfortunately a bunch of people think that any character that mentions that they are LGBT is "all about their sexuality" (yet, interestingly, this doesn't show up for the straight characters -- Aveline's entire personal quest is about setting her up with a guy that she's into yet no one claims she's "all about her sexuality").  I don't think Dorian's story is "all about his sexuality".  I think it's about family and loyalty and betrayal and that his sexuality plays a role in that.  Just like Steve.  I've heard over and over that his story is all about his being gay.  While I think his story is classic "Carth Syndrome" about helping a character get past his/her dead spouse -- he just happened to be the only gay one.  And characters like Sera are pretty great because she's undeniably lesbian and doesn't hide it, yet her story is focused on other aspects of her character.  As long as LGBT characters are multi-faceted (and, to date, they all have been), I'm happy with how they implement it.

I've thought the same. As much as I might feel for Dorian during this quest and beyond, they clearly went for the "teach our audience a moral lesson" over "tie this quest into the narrative".

Yes, this is part of Dorian's narrative (now), but his narrative is such much bigger than this, is it not? We already have precious little content with this outstandingly written, acted and designed character. This is made even worse by the fact that it's all so front-loaded, and heavily skewed toward an optional quest, the lesser of the two, in my opinion.

I feel like Dorian's quest is a actually a great example of a moral message compromising the potential quality of the game. His quest was okay; it triggers the feels in a Saturday Morning Special sort of way. You know you're hearing a lecture, but you're invested because you care about your friend, so it's a wash. I'd have preferred a deeper quest. It could be that Gaider believed something more would've felt like too much Dorian, after "In Hushed Whispers"; but some of us don't play IHW.

Again, it's something at which they're still working, trying to find a balance with which they're pleased.

I thought the same thing. 

Yea, only, with blacks and females we are talking 50%+ of humanity... not 3-8%. Don't overestimate the impact of media there.

I still think it's beyond the scope of a fantasy/scifie RPG to go into the topic in any meaningful way... especially one where characters usually are rather one note.

Can't argue with you there, of course... all I was saying is: Don't overestimate the impact entertainment media actually has on society... all things considered, it's still just a past time. We are a binary, sexually dimorphic species - just like any other mammal -  and people deviating from our base biological paradigms will never be "normalized". Accepted? Sure! Equally treated under the law? Of course! Anything beyond that though? Not gonna happen... and that's not me being insensitive or feeling threatened, grossed out or anything, it's just a rational assessment judging from roughly 50.000 years of human history... or what we know of it, at least. Societies rise, change and fall roughly along the same lines of development, they always have... we aren't the "special ones" just because we have smartphones.

Bottom line: I think it's just not sensible for an increasing number of young people to waste their time and potential with fruitless "social struggles"... you can strife for base equality and understanding, but that's about it - and even that - as fleeting as it might be - has already has been done for the most part. You want to be special, do something special with the time you are given.

Except that it HASN'T 'already been done for the most part'. Again, in the US, there are anti discrimation laws being struck down across the country at an alarming rate. There is legalized discrimination in more states than not. It's not a battle that's been won. It's a battle that's being lost currently. The work is very VERY far from reaching full legal equality. So the dismissive 'I just don't see what the big deal is' approach is very misinformed. And remember that the US is one of the BETTER countries. Globally, it's really not even begun to scratch the surface. And I'm just talking about laws. Let's not forget the open prejudice and violence that LGBT people experience every day. I live in NYC, one of the most progressive cities in the country, and I've experienced this first hand many times.

As a tax-paying, law-abiding 'good citizen' of the US, I have to examine the laws on the books every single time I travel within my own country to make sure that I understand what legal discrimination exists in the state that I'm going to. It's our reality and it's absolutely not even close to legal equality. And, if I'm being honest, I have it better than many others. I'm not trans. I'm white. I'm a guy. I'm 'straight acting' (a term i hate). It gets a lot worse for those who don't have those same privileges.

I'm not trying to preach, but you are operating under some very severe misunderstandings of how your own country operates. I'm just trying to inform you of the reality.

Ah, I was mistaken about where you live, so I apologize about that. I thought I remembered you mentioning living in the US in another post.

That being said, I reject your claim that only a child thinks that society can be changed. 15k years of human society proves you wrong. Societies constantly change. You stated this earlierz. Who do you think causes those changes? Individuals do based on their wants and needs. I could easily refute that only a child views reality as static and unchanging.

To bring it back on topic, if we want increased LGBT rights, then society can be changed to do so but it takes changing how people talk about and view LGBT people. Video games and other media absolutely have a role in that. It's silly to say that media doesn't influence society. Of course it does. And, in turn, its influenced by society as well. So there is a very real need, from my perspective, to see more realistic, varied, and common LGBT content in video games.

If black people hadn't crammed their progressiveness down people's throats, it's possible they'd still be segregated. If women hadn't done the same, it's possible we still wouldn't have the power to vote. Does racism and sexism (both institutionalized and not) still exist? As current events here in the U.S. have shown - absolutely. And as long as marginalized groups stay silent, that will continue to be the case. And there will always be push back. Look at cartoons and such from the time of the American suffrage movement. Much of the sentiment there is pretty similar to the type of stuff we've seen in this thread. That doesn't mean people should just shut up and appreciate whatever they've got, even if others have more based solely on their skin color/who they want to sleep with/gender (binary or not).

And yes, people's attitudes can change. There was a time in not so distant history where there was discrimination against the Irish and the Italians - I'd be hard pressed to find someone who believed that now. And don't underestimate the power of the media. Case in point: my own mother. My parents emigrated from Eastern Europe in the eighties and are super old school, even now. I remember as a child them telling me what 'gay' meant. I'll spare everyone here the details - just know the description was not a positive one. But then my mother, an avid T.V. watcher, starts seeing 'funny gay men' (I know, I know, her words not mine) in the shows she liked. 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy' was one of her favorites. Fast forward to 2008, when she voted for the first time. She voted in favor of gay marriage. Don't get me wrong, the woman isn't perfect. She is still totally racist. She thinks trans people do it for the attention. But thanks to the fact that gay people were 'shoved in her face' back when 'gay' was just some icky label to her, she at least sees them as actual people deserving equal rights. It's a step forward.

Even better? She raised me and my brother. You should hear the arguments over dinner when we visit our parents. This thread's got nothing on that Keep in mind, even if individual attitudes can only change as much as mothers' did or almost not at all (i.e. my father - though even his views have softened over the years, if not as dramatically), generational attitudes absolutely can. There's a pretty notable gap between who voted for who in our election this year when it comes to age groups. Not even generational. There's openly gay and trans kids in high schools now. Just 15 years ago, the one gay boy at my school who got discovered had to drop out.

First off, I should clarify that I'm not LGBTQ either. This is all just my personal opinion and observation... For me, gender roles/politics/representation are something of a special interest (as a feminist with a somewhat complicated relationship with my own gender identity). I find it all very fascinating. LGBTQ issues are kind of an offshoot of that, maybe in part because throughout my life I seem to have had a disproportionate number of openly gay/bi/trans friends. As in, over half of them. Not really sure the reason, just kinda turned out that way. Everyone from the guy who was like 'who cares, can we can talk about something actually interesting instead' on LGBT issues, to passionate activist-types who were very open and vocal. Just to give a bit of background on where I'm coming from. As a straight person I try to be careful not to speak 'on behalf' of anyone, as I would never presume to do so. Hopefully nothing I've written comes across that way.

Anyway, to your question: I think daveliam actually answered much as I would have. Would I agree with you that maybe DA:I was a tad overdone? Perhaps. I've certainly voiced my criticism on the subject. But as daveliam pointed out, I don't think the earlier games did that great of a job either.

In DAO Zevran was all 'yeah I'm bi, but I totally prefer women. How much, do you ask? Let me demonstrate by telling you about another woman I slept with/by hitting on another woman in front of you. Again.' I did play through his romance once (LOL at whoever made the Puss in Boots comment - his ridiculous accent was far more of a hurdle for me in that romance than his open promiscuity ever was) and it was fine, but that aspect of him I could have done without. And I played as myself - a straight female. I can only imagine how annoying that would have been to a gay dude who romanced him. Leliana I think was fine, but the contrast between the two recalls the 'but cute lesbians are hot!' attitude society tends to have, which Alistair will even outright say in his jealousy conversation if you happen to get ninja-manced by her while in a relationship with him. Like, really, Mr. Gaider? Dude.

In DA2, you could totally miss that most (all? never played as dudeHawke so I don't know if Isabella's bisexuality is ever overtly mentioned if you do) of our companions are bi. Isabella openly flirts with you as femHawke, but I'd have no idea that Fenris, Anders, or Merrill were LGBT characters unless I openly flirted with Merrill. I believe Fenris will hint at some abuse in his past if you romance him, but obviously that means nothing about his sexuality since it's not consensual. Anders will straight up hide the fact from you with the Karl thing. So, again, could be better. And our only two examples of trans characters in DAO and DA2 are drag queen-types who are prostitutes. So there's that.

ME1 and 2 have hot bisexual space babes, one of which you could sleep with as femShep, and a cute bisexual Kelly Chambers. Where there even any bi or gay men or actual lesbians in the first two Mass Effects? I certainly don't recall, unless you maybe count Morinth's victim (girl who sleeps with hot bisexual space babe, and dies). Though I can't speak to the romances because I never played them, I would agree that ME3 did it pretty well. No trans characters (unless you want to count Liara's father as a sort of alien-culture parallel - regardless, it was interesting) but their 'place' in the Mass Effect universe is debatable, and I'd say both sides of that argument have their merits. I thought Steve Cortez was great. I liked his character a lot, and found his story really touching. And I never felt like his story was 'about' him being gay. It was about him mourning his lost love, and us being there for him as a friend.  They could easily had him mourn his dead wife, and it would have worked just as well. But they didn't, and that's great. And your'e right about Samantha - she was just this cute nerdy girl, who also happened to be a bit of a perv. Loved her! The fact that she's a lesbian just kinda is. No bullet point or extra special teaching moment needed. I mention TWD because I felt they did the same thing. As you pointed out, there's some problems there with who they ultimately choose to kill off, sure, but I still think the presentation itself is one of the better ones.

But... keep in mind that neither our gay nor lesbian friends in ME3 were squadmates. And Kaidan's romance scene on the Citadel is missing a whole cinematic that femShep does get. Also, less an LGBT issue and more a personal issue, if you kill Kaidan in ME1 and didn't romance Garrus in ME2, for male options straight femShep gets dumped, watches her lover die, or is forever alone. So in order to not wake up next to Javik at your party, you've got some date-raping to do. Which I guess is fine if you really like Javik or really want to date-rape Vega, but, if you don't, too bad.

So, in short: Yes, I think DAI, imperfect as it is, did it better

I find this not so difficult to believe, because I am used to space operas resorting to an even more implausible setup: in the globalized space-faring future, everyone you meet is white, and likely also male. Consider we haven't had a single Asian squad mate in ME, even though Han Chinese alone currently make up almost a fifth of the world's population, and the lore itself describes China as one of the spacefaring pioneers.

Funnily enough, that bothers me a lot more than a seemingly inordinate number of LGB people. After all, as Daveliam has pointed out, there are places in the world with statistics one might deem impossible (over 20% non-straight people in France or San Francisco, to mention a couple) and historically cultures that were tolerant or even encouraging of homosexual relationships seemed to have more people willing to participate in them than we would expect.