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Post by Gwydden on Dec 15, 2016 19:25:43 GMT
I am not the sort to start threads, usually, but with all the negativity flying about I thought I would make a (mostly) positive comment based on what little we know.
In what we have been shown so far, I have noticed a distinct lack of that beloved Bioware trope known as the "ancient evil," by which the main plot is reduced to another tired fight between our protagonist and some wannabe villains straight out of their millennia of retirement. The Reapers, the Blight, the Collectors, the idol, the Catalyst, Corypheus, and our bald friend Solaris all make the list.
Is anyone else tired of it? I know I am. It is a crutch that has made many a main plot suffer. And I am noticing a distinct lack of it in Mass Effect: Andromeda. Of course, we all have heard of the Remnant, but nothing suggests they are evil or even still around. It is looking like a story of exploration and colonization, of finding a new home in this brave new world (which one can only hope will have such people in't) while dealing with internal conflicts and clashes with the locals. That is interesting and has a lot of potential, and if they are brave enough to go for it and not fall back on tired cliches they get my respect... until Dragon Age 4 anyway.
Of course, it may just be that we haven't seen them yet. I remember when we thought Dragon Age: Inquisition would be about juggling the different factions in the Mage-Templar War and the Orlesian Civil War, only for it to be revealed that in fact we would be dealing with skydiving demons. Joy. This is all speculation, as everything else in this subforum. But I am willing to place a little trust in Bioware. Just a little, mind.
Thoughts?
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sjsharp2010
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 15, 2016 19:46:10 GMT
Personally I think the Kett that everybody's been talking about will be filling that role based on what little we do know. As for there being no one threat I don't think it's that bad to not necessarily have one. Whilst I can understand why the game got quite a kicking as it did I actually enjoy DA2 and DA2 didn't really have one specific antagonist to be fair either and the story for the most part worked just fine to me. Especially as Hawke was for the most part running from problem to problem offering his services as a sellsword in order to make sure his family could live and survive the problematic city of Kirkwall. It just needs to be a more well written story and less rushed one than DA2 had which looks to be the case this time. I'm not saying DA2's story was bad because it wasn't but it did have a bit of a rushed feel to it imo.
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Post by vit246 on Dec 15, 2016 20:01:28 GMT
"Ancient Evils" are Bioware's crutch because they don't have the skill to write humanly complex villains.
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Post by Serza on Dec 15, 2016 20:57:30 GMT
What did you need me for, again?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 15, 2016 21:18:35 GMT
I agree with you. I don't think the remnant are going to be an ancient evil. More like the technological arms race between us and the Kett more akin to the ancients from stargate or forerunners from halo. Any remnant we'll battle are likely defense bots or subsumed by the Kett. Granted the Kett themselves might be really old, but since they are probably not going to be in Hibernation by the time we get there. "Ancient Evils" are Bioware's crutch because they don't have the skill to write humanly complex villains. Corypheus, solas, saren and the illusive man all disagree with this statement. And they aren't alone.
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Post by revanshep78 on Dec 15, 2016 21:20:37 GMT
One of the best ancient evil story lines I've seen has been from Babylon 5. Maybe Star Trek DS9 as well. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like in ME:A but I agree; it is an overused Bioware trope. My hope is that we avoid the trope of the antagonist searching for an ancient super-weapon to gain supremacy over the sector. Maybe something along the lines of stopping (or agreeing with) the antagonist over negating biotics, dark matter, or some other feature of the dominant race in the sector. Such a story line would create radical ramifications between cultural relations. I'm spit-balling, here and I'm sure there are much more creative ideas out there than mine! However, I can say in the instance of DA:I there is SO much lore and recent story reveals that it has moved beyond was I would classify as an ancient evil trope. More like a giant "OMG, my bad. I effed up with that Veil thing. So, now I'm going to wipe the slate clean."
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Post by colfoley on Dec 15, 2016 21:23:22 GMT
One of the best ancient evil story lines I've seen has been from Babylon 5. Maybe Star Trek DS9 as well. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like in ME:A but I agree; it is an overused Bioware trope. My hope is that we avoid the trope of the antagonist searching for an ancient super-weapon to gain supremacy over the sector. Maybe something along the lines of stopping (or agreeing with) the antagonist over negating biotics, dark matter, or some other feature of the dominant race in the sector. Such a story line would create radical ramifications between cultural relations. I'm spit-balling, here and I'm sure there are much more creative ideas out there than mine! However, I can say in the instance of DA:I there is SO much lore and recent story reveals that it has moved beyond was I would classify as an ancient evil trope. More like a giant "OMG, my bad. I effed up with that Veil thing. So, now I'm going to wipe the slate clean." almost didn't play me because thought they were ripping off b5 ?
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Post by SofNascimento on Dec 15, 2016 21:25:05 GMT
"Ancient Evils" are Bioware's crutch because they don't have the skill to write humanly complex villains. Corypheus, solas, saren and the illusive man all disagree with this statement. And they aren't alone. Indeed they are not, the best ones are Irenicus, The Mater from Jade Empire and the Arishok. And that's ignoring Revan... I mean, look at this guy: "Let's rip that off for our villain" /Someone
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 15, 2016 21:28:15 GMT
I am not the sort to start threads, usually, but with all the negativity flying about ... Negativity? I thought BSN had been quite chipper of late...
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Post by colfoley on Dec 15, 2016 21:41:32 GMT
Corypheus, solas, saren and the illusive man all disagree with this statement. And they aren't alone. Indeed they are not, the best ones are Irenicus, The Mater from Jade Empire and the Arishok. And that's ignoring Revan... I mean, look at this guy: "Let's rip that off for our villain" /Someone Considering the first RPG I ever played was Mass Effect 2...but yes I did 'forget' the Arishock. More like remembered but couldn't be arsed to type that name in on my phone. Back to my computer now. Yey.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 15, 2016 21:47:24 GMT
Future ancient villains after: How about: - The Vestige
- The Fragment
- The Residuum
- The Splinter
Just let me know when I've 'called it' EDIT: Also works for Dragon Age, just with additional punctuation: - The Vest'i'ge
- The Frag'm'e'nt
- The Res'i'du'u'm
- The S'p'l'int'er
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Post by Gwydden on Dec 15, 2016 22:12:55 GMT
What did you need me for, again? Well, this is a discussion forum. Discuss! Do you think the Remnant will be fulfilling the role of an ancient evil or not? Do you think the whole "ancient evil" is an overused Bioware trope in general? What would you like the main plot of Andromeda to be about? How would you like the main antagonist(s) to be handled? Or something others have already brought up, what Bioware villains would you say worked best? Negativity? I thought BSN had been quite chipper of late... That statement does not compute. BSN? Chipper? Are we talking about a Bachelor of Science in Nursing? Medical personnel does seem merrier these days. You cannot possibly be referring to anything else, right?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 15, 2016 22:17:21 GMT
What did you need me for, again? Well, this is a discussion forum. Discuss! Do you think the Remnant will be fulfilling the role of an ancient evil or not? Do you think the whole "ancient evil" is an overused Bioware trope in general? What would you like the main plot of Andromeda to be about? How would you like the main antagonist(s) to be handled? Or something others have already brought up, what Bioware villains would you say worked best? Negativity? I thought BSN had been quite chipper of late... That statement does not compute. BSN? Chipper? Are we talking about a Bachelor of Science in Nursing? Medical personnel does seem merrier these days. You cannot possibly be referring to anything else, right? I suspect there will be three main plot threads for the game. 1. Discovering the 'Ryder family mystery', and delve into the family to begin with. 2. Exploring Andromeda and building the Nexus. 3. Discovering information on the Remnant, while fending off the Kett, which the Remnant may have some tech which would help stop the Kett or them stop you.
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Post by derrame on Dec 15, 2016 22:34:12 GMT
maybe there is an ancient evil, the game is not out yet
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Post by havox on Dec 15, 2016 22:36:32 GMT
Where, where, where are they..... Found them! Well, that was easy. Leave it to Bioware to insert cliche alien robots to blow up.
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Post by javeart on Dec 15, 2016 22:55:21 GMT
I suspect there will be three main plot threads for the game. 1. Discovering the 'Ryder family mystery', and delve into the family to begin with. 2. Exploring Andromeda and building the Nexus. 3. Discovering information on the Remnant, while fending off the Kett, which the Remnant may have some tech which would help stop the Kett or them stop you. I hope there's also a little bit of 4: MW people killing each other, preferably for something not race related for a change, something to add a little more of political complexity, so to speak, to the "us v the kett" thing
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Post by colfoley on Dec 15, 2016 22:56:43 GMT
I suspect there will be three main plot threads for the game. 1. Discovering the 'Ryder family mystery', and delve into the family to begin with. 2. Exploring Andromeda and building the Nexus. 3. Discovering information on the Remnant, while fending off the Kett, which the Remnant may have some tech which would help stop the Kett or them stop you. I hope there's also a little bit of 4: MW people killing each other, preferably for something not race related for a change, something to add a little more of political complexity, so to speak, to the "us v the kett" thing Crap forgot to add that one in there. My bad. Though I suppose we don't know if that will be a subplot or not.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Dec 16, 2016 1:17:23 GMT
Where, where, where are they..... Found them! Well, that was easy. Leave it to Bioware to insert cliche alien robots to blow up. That's from the new Transformers Movie, right? I want to ram it with the Mako, Bio PLS, make it happen!
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Post by Xerxes52 on Dec 16, 2016 1:47:45 GMT
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Post by agentmrorange on Dec 16, 2016 4:49:13 GMT
you have to chant sing first
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Post by colfoley on Dec 16, 2016 5:11:57 GMT
I think that it's incredibly sad to see how similar many Sci-fi games have become. The antagonists, the armor, the technology, the weapons, the robots, etc. I mean, that picture could have easily been taken from a Halo game, or a Crysis game. Hell, the most refreshing take on a Sci-fi game this year is probably CoD: Infinite Warfare. Isn't that ridiculously sad? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't COD Infinite Warefare the only Tripple A release of the last year that had sci fi elements?
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Post by xassantex on Dec 16, 2016 5:49:46 GMT
i'm hoping we'll meet the Borg Queen. She's interesting.
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Post by Fredward on Dec 16, 2016 6:10:54 GMT
I don't mind the ancient evil bit, what I mind is the unknowable, nuanceless, straightforward evil. Archdemon fit, the reapers fit, DA2 did not fit and I for one liked its more personal story, Corypheus might have not fit but he wound up being so boring he did, Solas most assuredly does NOT fit and stands to be one of the greatest villains in gaming history as far as I'm concerned but his story is still coming up.
It's weird to me because one thing the majority of people seem to agree on is that Bioware isn't terrible with their characters, so making these villains so completely lacking in recognizable human motivation and internal conflict is an odd choice. The Remnant for MEA is not boding well from where I'm standing but I guess we'll see.
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Post by Fredward on Dec 16, 2016 6:56:06 GMT
I think it's still too early to give away awards. I don't disagree. Anyway, with a villain like him I think that the next DA game won't be complete without the option to join him in some way. It's a real shame that those options seem to have died with older RPG's. Joining a plan who's definition of success includes you dying was, is, and continues to be stupid. I'm not opposed to it starting a little ending slideshow ending with exactly that tho.
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Post by Fredward on Dec 16, 2016 7:22:11 GMT
That's an assumption. Perhaps you are playing an Elf (which either will survive, or follow him anyway out of a sense of duty or religious belief), perhaps just like he can survive the cataclysm others can too (mages, or other "fade touched"), perhaps he can actively change others to fit the new reality. Nooooot really. He pretty straightforwardly states everyone has to die for him to do his thing and he also makes it clear that he does not consider the current version of elves his people. I'm sure many of them are following him because they think they're gonna be restored but they're being played. Thinking he might be able to change people and take them to the brave new world when he has expressed neither the ability nor any real intention to do so is an assumption.
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