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Post by parsival on Apr 18, 2017 8:54:19 GMT
I think there are a few options that Shepard could explore after a 'Refuse' ending, assuming he survived somehow. Attempting to destroy the Citadel would be one, or indeed blowing up some more Mass Relays in a sort of scorched earth policy. Another would relate to the Rachni, and then again there is the option of kamikaze attacks at light speed by capital ships (which is explored in the codex, no less). I also think that it might be interesting to see if a single Reaper capital ship could be controlled by the Leviathans, then used to lure others into a trap. Whilst none of these would win the war, they'd cause a hell of a lot of damage.
Anyway, let's be honest - the whole ending business sucks, much as the Catalyst MacGuffin does.
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Post by medaifan on Apr 18, 2017 9:41:42 GMT
With my cannon FemShep Rain... couldn't pick red fast enough, I didn't work this hard throughout three games to NOT destroy those bastards.
And then red in every playthrough since... we'll except my more recent one I tried Green. Next up is Blue... Eeek.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2017 13:26:25 GMT
Anyway, let's be honest - the whole ending business sucks, much as the Catalyst MacGuffin does. That's why I usually RP that the Catalyst is a blood loss-induced hallucination and that there was only ever one real option. Alternatively, MEHEM.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2017 13:30:32 GMT
With my cannon FemShep Rain... couldn't pick red fast enough, I didn't work this hard throughout three games to NOT destroy those bastards. And then red in every playthrough since... we'll except my more recent one I tried Green. Next up is Blue... Eeek. Tried Green once. Sure, it's happy enough but...no Shepard. It deprives people of free will. I'm happy enough to let people get there on their own. I mean, if it's as inevitable as the Catalyst says then we'll get there in our own time. We're probably on our way to it in Andromeda with SAM. Never went Blue. Thought of it but the idea of being a Reaper creeps me out beyond belief. I know Shepard is in control but I can't help but think the Reapers got what they wanted by having their human Reaper.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2017 15:29:32 GMT
I think there are a few options that Shepard could explore after a 'Refuse' ending, assuming he survived somehow. Attempting to destroy the Citadel would be one, or indeed blowing up some more Mass Relays in a sort of scorched earth policy. Another would relate to the Rachni, and then again there is the option of kamikaze attacks at light speed by capital ships (which is explored in the codex, no less). I also think that it might be interesting to see if a single Reaper capital ship could be controlled by the Leviathans, then used to lure others into a trap. Whilst none of these would win the war, they'd cause a hell of a lot of damage. Anyway, let's be honest - the whole ending business sucks, much as the Catalyst MacGuffin does. Destroy the Citadel how? As it is the Reapers are tearing apart the fleets in orbit and completely routed the troops on the ground. Shepard might have opened the Citadel but nothing would stop the Keepers or even a Reaper Trooper from closing it again. And you don't understand the size and scale of the Citadel as even Harbinger is dwarfed into insignificance in comparison to it. Kamikaze attacks with capital ships would be a massive waste compared to gain. The time it takes to build a capital ship would be weeks of work before the Reapers attacked. You would burn though every Capital ship in the galaxy before you could build a single new one and the end result would be a few Reapers down but thousands more to go. Blowing up Mass Relays only delays the Reapers for at best a few months. While at the same time trapping races within the star system and destroying all habitable worlds afterwards. Doing nothing to actually stop the Reapers no doing anything to prevent the cycle from continuing. If Leviathan could control a Reaper ship they wouldn't be in hiding. They would have risen up and reclaimed their rightful place (in their mind) as the Apex race of this galaxy and reestablished their dominion. It would do damage but it would be ultimately insignificant to the Reapers and wouldn't prevent them from continuing the harvest. Eden Prime was a Prothean City 50,000 years ago now it was a garden world with rolling green hills and crystal clear lakes. I know that literature, movies and such like to romanticism the last stand were the good guy fights to the last breath before being killed. They make it seem so noble and important but they ignore the fact all it means is the good guy loses and the bad guy wins and gets to continue on doing the bad guy things anyways. Ultimately everything you do is meaningless and the Reapers continue on their task yet again. The ending wasn't bad at all. There are always ways to improve stuff so saying it is perfect is a bit of a stretch. That being said you already played 2 games of magical Mac Guffin steps in at the last minute to allow you to win the day. After ME 1 and ME 2 you can't complain that the 3rd game does the same thing.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2017 15:30:13 GMT
With my cannon FemShep Rain... couldn't pick red fast enough, I didn't work this hard throughout three games to NOT destroy those bastards. And then red in every playthrough since... we'll except my more recent one I tried Green. Next up is Blue... Eeek. Tried Green once. Sure, it's happy enough but...no Shepard. It deprives people of free will. Source?
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Post by themikefest on Apr 18, 2017 15:46:54 GMT
destroying the Citadel? The Citadel has engines. Shepard gets in the drivers seat. Turns the key. The engine starts. Shepard puts it in drive and presses the accelerator. Shepard drives the Citadel to the sun. There you go. Citadel destroyed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 17:50:40 GMT
One great thing about Blue is that there are two different versions for paragon and renegade Shepard. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but iirc in the other endings it doesn't matter.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2017 18:26:55 GMT
Tried Green once. Sure, it's happy enough but...no Shepard. It deprives people of free will. Source? I meant they are unable to choose Synthesis for themselves. EDIT: I still don't care for Synthesis. And, no, you're still not changing my mind. The more you push the less interested I am.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2017 18:43:09 GMT
I meant they are unable to choose Synthesis for themselves. EDIT: I still don't care for Synthesis. And, no, you're still not changing my mind. The more you push the less interested I am. Still doesn't quite fit the remove free will statement you made. I don't expect to change your mind how ever I am mildly amused at how defensive you get over a game and someone disagreeing with you over it. It raises a lot of questions in my mind.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2017 19:02:27 GMT
I meant they are unable to choose Synthesis for themselves. EDIT: I still don't care for Synthesis. And, no, you're still not changing my mind. The more you push the less interested I am. Still doesn't quite fit the remove free will statement you made. I don't expect to change your mind how ever I am mildly amused at how defensive you get over a game and someone disagreeing with you over it. It raises a lot of questions in my mind. No, the free will aspect was that the people of the galaxy get no choice. Perhaps I worded it poorly but that's it. Fine, raise all the questions you want in your mind.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2017 19:46:11 GMT
Still doesn't quite fit the remove free will statement you made. I don't expect to change your mind how ever I am mildly amused at how defensive you get over a game and someone disagreeing with you over it. It raises a lot of questions in my mind. No, the free will aspect was that the people of the galaxy get no choice. Perhaps I worded it poorly but that's it. Fine, raise all the questions you want in your mind. But they still have free will afterwards. So was harm actually done? Particularly when the end result is a much better life for them. This is the lesser mentality of refuse. Or at least not as overtly small sighted as refuse is. Particularly because free will is an abstract concept that isn't true for everyone and never manifests in the same set up for everyone. If free will is so important then why are there laws against murder? Because the person doing the murdering is doing it of their own free will. How about drugs? It is their free will to take them so why do they get in trouble for it? Every single time free will is brought up in relation to the endings and particularly synthesis ending it is done in such an almost child like way using the most simplistic and basis understanding of it. Ignoring the nuances and real applications of it and how free will isn't truly free will. You really think people of their own free will let Morinth kill them? Do you really think the Krogan accept the Genophage and all other restrictions applied to them after the Krogan Rebellion of their own free will? This is a double helping of interesting to me when someone of their own free will creates a scenario in their head that causes them to have problems with the game. And when someone else of their own free will begins to question them they get all defensive about someone exercising their free will to inquire and debate. Turing the whole thing into an interesting contradiction were free will is the reason why one ending is bad due to the removal of it for a single choice. But yet you offer the same denial of free will to question, comment and debate your opinion on stuff. My larger point is why is free will an abstract concept that is full of subtitles and nuances to it and never so simple and straight forward used in context of the endings in the most simplistic, child like view way possible to argue against some aspect or portion of it. Particularly when events in the game actually show how complex free will and the ability to exercise it in any form actually is. Why do even vaugly complex problems become hilariously simplistic when it comes to the endings?
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Post by medaifan on Apr 18, 2017 21:48:20 GMT
With my cannon FemShep Rain... couldn't pick red fast enough, I didn't work this hard throughout three games to NOT destroy those bastards. And then red in every playthrough since... we'll except my more recent one I tried Green. Next up is Blue... Eeek. Tried Green once. Sure, it's happy enough but...no Shepard. It deprives people of free will. I'm happy enough to let people get there on their own. I mean, if it's as inevitable as the Catalyst says then we'll get there in our own time. We're probably on our way to it in Andromeda with SAM. Never went Blue. Thought of it but the idea of being a Reaper creeps me out beyond belief. I know Shepard is in control but I can't help but think the Reapers got what they wanted by having their human Reaper. Not to mention that human Reaper was the only human that the Reapers feared, sounds like a pretty big win for the Reapers imo. I totally agree about the Green ending, it was 'happy' enough, but in that slightly off Stepford-Wives/Twilight Zone way... can't help but wonder what sinister truths are being hidden behind this new Utopian way of life(On top of the disregard for free will).
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2017 2:13:28 GMT
Tried Green once. Sure, it's happy enough but...no Shepard. It deprives people of free will. I'm happy enough to let people get there on their own. I mean, if it's as inevitable as the Catalyst says then we'll get there in our own time. We're probably on our way to it in Andromeda with SAM. Never went Blue. Thought of it but the idea of being a Reaper creeps me out beyond belief. I know Shepard is in control but I can't help but think the Reapers got what they wanted by having their human Reaper. Not to mention that human Reaper was the only human that the Reapers feared, sounds like a pretty big win for the Reapers imo. I totally agree about the Green ending, it was 'happy' enough, but in that slightly off Stepford-Wives/Twilight Zone way... can't help but wonder what sinister truths are being hidden behind this new Utopian way of life(On top of the disregard for free will). Wouldn't say they feared Shepard. Took a definite interst in but fear might be going a bit to far. Do go on about how it is Step ford-Wives/Twilight Zone way. How is it a disregard for free will when similar actions have been taken in the past in the game? Arguably for the betterment of the galaxy at large.
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Post by abedsbrother on Apr 23, 2017 0:37:41 GMT
I have always chosen red in the past. Planning blue in my current playthrough.
Funny thought: before today, I had never saved the Collector Base, I always destroyed it (red explosion). When I didn't destroy it, and set off the alternate explosion that left the base intact, the explosion color was blue. Interesting...
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 23, 2017 3:05:12 GMT
I have always chosen red in the past. Planning blue in my current playthrough. Funny thought: before today, I had never saved the Collector Base, I always destroyed it (red explosion). When I didn't destroy it, and set off the alternate explosion that left the base intact, the explosion color was blue. Interesting... Meaning that the game is indoctrinating you to decide which ending... Makes sense. I always destroy the base and choose Red.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 7:26:32 GMT
In the final TIM conversation of ME2, the star in the background is blue if you destroyed the base and red if you kept it. And you get a few lines of different dialogue. That's it.
This is worse than ME3 actually. In ME3, it's easy to decide for one ending based on what your favourite colour is, and it even rewards you with a green option if you played well (yay!). In ME2 you get either a blue explosion and a red star or a red explosion and a blue star. That's fucked up isn't it, how am I supposed to make a sound decision on such grounds?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 8:35:53 GMT
I have always chosen Red too actually because I felt that my goal was to destroy them rather than just stop them. I try to do this with a high enough EMS to not destroy everything low enough to have Shepard die.
However, I chose blue in my last run of it and I thought it was suitably creepy for me. The reason I even tried this ending though was because my Shepard had the breath scene in the end and I prefer my story with Shepard dead. But yeah, I ended up enjoying the Blue ending even though my Shepard is a Renegade.
I don't even want to think about Javik's reaction to my decision...
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Post by yan on Apr 23, 2017 8:54:24 GMT
My last Shep chose Refuse. Let another idiot pick one of those horrible endings.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 8:57:03 GMT
My last Shep chose Refuse. Let another idiot pick one of those horrible endings. I did that once too and I was really happy with it. Until I couldn't sleep without thinking about the ending. I think I felt guilty or something that I just left everyone die so I went back and changed it. Still I liked shooting the child.
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Post by yan on Apr 23, 2017 9:06:04 GMT
Lol.
That happening. For example, after.....I do not know, 70 hours with one of my Shepards, I totally lost the connection with him, after failing to save the Geth. I think I've deleted that save.
do you know what is funny? I have no problem choosing Red at the end. What the eyes do not see, the heart does not feel.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 23, 2017 12:42:04 GMT
My last Shep chose Refuse. Let another idiot pick one of those horrible endings. Why are they horrible?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2017 4:42:02 GMT
In so many of the different responses I have read about people endings and choice and why they chose what they did over the years, I find it really fascinating that often people cite not choosing destroy because it would destroy edi and the geth as well as they thought it might destroy Shepard (despite the ending) because the kids says or implies it will. And yet when I think back to my game, EDI chooses for herself that no cost is too high including her own life. I think it might be around the conversation about the people held in camps that would not help and she didn't understand why they wouldn't when it could have saved them. As for the geth, they wanted the reapers destroyed as well. No, they did not realize that in doing so that would destroy them, but Legion was one of them though he had evolved, and he sacrificed himself to give the code to them IIRC. Now they all joined to fight the reapers and the plan was destroy. If it came down to it, I think they would choose to allow their end to end the reapers just as legion accepted his fate to improve the geth. And just as my shepard was not sure if he would survive but the plan was to destroy the reapers and he was sticking with that.
Regardless of what the kid says. I think there are many we meet in the game that would never choose this option but there are those who do. Grunt and Mordin will choose to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Probably others that I don't remember. It goes back to the Renegade statements Shepard makes. Survive at any cost. Not specifically this or that one surviving but that all had to be willing to do whatever it takes. Ironically, it comes off as renegade only because paragon is so much softer but within those renegade options it feels like there is a lot more paragon - almost an idealist willing to die for their ideals. The at all costs part makes it renegade, but only just by a hair. Whatever it takes has been considered the renegade option (Ruthless) but when it is the survival of a whole galaxy of species and you would gladly sacrifice yourself to save them and believe others have to be willing to do the same, I think it's more paragon really at its core and I think most would accept that even if they would prefer not to.
Back in ME1 you can choose to sacrifice Alliance to save the council. That's paragon. Okay, maybe they were military and know they signed up that possibility. Ash/Kaiden will accept their fate knowing it was for a greater good. The suicide mission is all about knowing you have next to no chance to survive but doing it because it's the thing you deem worthy of doing. This theme carries across all games and what you consistently see is that people are willing to do it when they believe the cause is just. And everyone agreed that destroying the reapers was the plan. All were willing to die for it by choosing to fight. Just because it's a funny colored beam that will do it and take their race, I don't think that really matters. They signed on, one face after another. The end goal to all was to end the reapers and have the galaxy survive this time around.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2017 9:02:14 GMT
blue because it's my favorite color.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 24, 2017 11:55:26 GMT
In so many of the different responses I have read about people endings and choice and why they chose what they did over the years, I find it really fascinating that often people cite not choosing destroy because it would destroy edi and the geth as well as they thought it might destroy Shepard (despite the ending) because the kids says or implies it will. And yet when I think back to my game, EDI chooses for herself that no cost is too high including her own life. I think it might be around the conversation about the people held in camps that would not help and she didn't understand why they wouldn't when it could have saved them. As for the geth, they wanted the reapers destroyed as well. No, they did not realize that in doing so that would destroy them, but Legion was one of them though he had evolved, and he sacrificed himself to give the code to them IIRC. Now they all joined to fight the reapers and the plan was destroy. If it came down to it, I think they would choose to allow their end to end the reapers just as legion accepted his fate to improve the geth. And just as my shepard was not sure if he would survive but the plan was to destroy the reapers and he was sticking with that. Regardless of what the kid says. I think there are many we meet in the game that would never choose this option but there are those who do. Grunt and Mordin will choose to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Probably others that I don't remember. It goes back to the Renegade statements Shepard makes. Survive at any cost. Not specifically this or that one surviving but that all had to be willing to do whatever it takes. Ironically, it comes off as renegade only because paragon is so much softer but within those renegade options it feels like there is a lot more paragon - almost an idealist willing to die for their ideals. The at all costs part makes it renegade, but only just by a hair. Whatever it takes has been considered the renegade option (Ruthless) but when it is the survival of a whole galaxy of species and you would gladly sacrifice yourself to save them and believe others have to be willing to do the same, I think it's more paragon really at its core and I think most would accept that even if they would prefer not to. Back in ME1 you can choose to sacrifice Alliance to save the council. That's paragon. Okay, maybe they were military and know they signed up that possibility. Ash/Kaiden will accept their fate knowing it was for a greater good. The suicide mission is all about knowing you have next to no chance to survive but doing it because it's the thing you deem worthy of doing. This theme carries across all games and what you consistently see is that people are willing to do it when they believe the cause is just. And everyone agreed that destroying the reapers was the plan. All were willing to die for it by choosing to fight. Just because it's a funny colored beam that will do it and take their race, I don't think that really matters. They signed on, one face after another. The end goal to all was to end the reapers and have the galaxy survive this time around. Destruction of individual or even large groups of individuals are different then the complete destruction of their an entire race. Even if the Reaper War resulted in a 75% loss of all Human, Asari, Salarian, Turian, Batarian, Elcor, Volus, etc. So that their individual race was cut down to just 25% of their population pre Reaper War. That still wouldn't be the same as completely wiping the Geth out. Your motivations for Legion are a bit stretching it. Due to the fact it's every action was based around self preservation of it's race as a whole. The upgrade allows the Geth to survive the Quarian's aggression and be able to fight against the Reapers with the intent of surviving the war. I think it is fairly safe to say if you told Legion you planned to wipe out all Geth with the Reapers at best the Geth would have simply not helped you. At worst they would have attacked you for it.
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