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Post by shepherdcommander on Feb 26, 2017 19:03:12 GMT
Because no one can play this game without making a thread on the endings, but I also didn't want to make another thread on the endings so I'll post my thoughts here. I see many debates over the endings, most cannot be resolved but I saw a recurring theme that I think solves a lot of problems for a lot of people. It can be said that all of this is purely headcanon, but what in ME isn’t? As far as headcanon goes I think this has some real weight behind it, so here goes:
A major problem people have with the destruction ending is that it seems needlessly bittersweet with the ‘thrown-in’ sacrifice of the Geth and EDI. I think what people miss here is that in ME if you play as a pure bad-dude or bad-girl renegade, hardcore Cerberus supporter, human supremacist, anti-alien, and anti-AI, which you can do… or if you are simply one of the many billions of people in the world who simply cannot grasp that a machine can be sentient and have reflected that belief in your play, there sacrifice is literally meaningless, to you they are technology and that is a perfectly valid standpoint supported by the game. If you actually believed that synthetics would always lead to war destroying all synthetics around now and regulating future AI development as is currently done, bar Cerberus, the renegade destroy option should be available, although might seem unnecessary as a renegade would have already destroyed the geth by now and there are no other known AI species, there is still EDI that a renegade might want to get rid of, I know some people wanted to throw her and her eva body out the airlock, not to mention other potentially dangerous AI in the galaxy which would presumably be targeted as well.
Some people have a hard time seeing why control is painted blue when Anderson is the known paragon shown to support the ‘renegade’ destruction while the known renegade, TIM, supports the apparently ‘paragon’ control. Others would, rightfully, be confused if the opposite were true. A pure paragon shepherd would have cured the genophage, and if unable to broker peace between quarrian and geth would have sided, perhaps surprisingly, with the geth (that’s based upon, among other things, the position of the dialogue choices). A pure paragon shepherd rewrote the heretics, and saved the rachni queen despite no evidence of a peaceful bug – the same as there was no evidence of a peaceful krogan. A pure paragon would have saved wrex but even if wreav were in charge would have cured the genophage. I’m saying this is an extreme but valid viewpoint that is supported by the game. Shepherd, no matter how bad the enemy gets, is unwilling to stop them by genocide, s/he always finds another way. It would be extremely out of character for this him/her to suddenly commit genocide on a species even as bad as the reapers.
I think these points were missed by a majority who chose always what they thought was right, or looked online to see what decisions they wanted to make, that there were extreme viewpoints supported by the game and it was the mix of them that actually gave you your experience. I think the developers knew this, and the story especially drove home an opposite point with TIM and Anderson supporting the opposite choices and that’s why they color coded it the way they did. That being said they realized the majority would not share these extreme viewpoints and that some people would want to play as cerberus loyalists and support TIMs control ending and some pure paragon players would be disappointed if they could not in good conscience destroy the reapers and support Anderson. They even made a separate control ending for renegade players. They made a separate destroy ending for if you fucked up your EMS and killed your crew, but I think they meant to make a separate destroy ending for paragons who did not believe the BS they were being told about synthetics always leading to organic extinction but wanted to destroy the reapers themselves anyway. I think the original cut included EDI walking out of the ship with high EMS intentionally and they dropped the idea for the extended cut because everyone was choosing destroy, they wanted it to be more of a sacrifice, and they probably took the opportunity to cut the potential work in half with only the one ending instead of two. Much to the disappointment of a majority of players who only wanted JohnP’s Alternate MEHEM. I don’t think there is really anything wrong with a majority players choosing destroy, a majority (92%) cured the genophage and they never ‘nerfed’ that. Really it would be surprising if even less than half did not want to destroy the reapers after three games. So, for destroy, high EMS/Paragon = laser blasts target reaper tech, high EMS/Renegade = laser blasts target reaper tech synthetic AI life (EDI/Geth use reaper tech, all mass effect tech based on reaper tech so likely all VI/AI based on mass effect/reaper tech), low EMS/renegade/paragon = laser blasts targets mass effect technology and blasts at catalyst site are powerful enough to target organics.
Why is destroy renegade? Renegade is focused on getting the job done, damned with collateral damage, i.e. damage to the relays, EDI, Geth, possibly earth, technology, and with no-nonsense towards what might be a threat in the future, i.e. destruction of rachni, geth, krogan, etc. Renegade actually always takes the safest route. Why is control renegade? If it were established that morinth were more powerful than samara and that she would be the greater asset to the suicide mission it would make sense for the renegade to choose her over samara (setting aside the threat the justicar code might pose to a renegade). Renegades recruit zaeed and appreciate his get the job done at all costs strategy. Paragons can only appeal to this side of him to gain his loyalty. Renegades are willing to sacrifice to gain advantage and power to complete the task. If the task is destruction of the reapers, a renegade is willing to sacrifice a lot to get that, but if the task is somehow bigger, like the protection and rebuilding, or further uplifting, of humanity or the galaxy, as per TIMs vision, then a renegade is willing to sacrifice a lot to get that. A renegade would be willing to control the reapers for the greater good if they saw that as their mission. then of course there is the paragon equivalents; follow Anderson, or control the reapers (like reprogramming heretics) to avoid having to genocide them.
And a word on synthesis, I think the catalyst AI has been synthesizing organics through the cycles but also processes them into reaper form, I think it has tried letting some of the species in each cycle preserve their forms for limited amounts of time, seeing how they live with synthesis and how they eventually abuse the power or destroy themselves for being unable to cope with the new existence, thus it reverts back to the controlled reaper forms. Shepherd asks who designed the crucible and the AI says you would not know them and there is no time to explain. I think that the AI has made many crucibles before and used it to force synthesis multiple times before, which ultimately resulted in the developed species abusing the synthesis power or destroying themselves for being unable to cope, resulting in their necessitated reaping. Organics in one of the cycles may have found a “spent cartridge” used on a previous cycle and thus began production and eventually passed the information down to the protheans. It works on reapers because it’s a reaper weapon, it works like a back door. As to why you need a high EMS to get the synthesis ending, it’s how you convince the AI that your cycle is worthy of being preserved in its current forms as opposed to being synthesized AND reaped you can be only synthesized because you have shown the AI that this cycle is capable of setting aside differences and working together. Unlike previous cycles that would be unable to cope and abuse the power, by working together you have shown that you can be trusted with the power. The problem here is that the AI is convinced by the cooperation AND by shepherds choosing this path, which is the AI believes that organics cannot be forced into synthesis they must choose it for themselves. The fault in this logic is that shepherd does not speak for all individuals of all species, the AI may not have a conception that shepherd does not act as a hivemind for all organics everywhere because frankly it’s a new scenario the AI has not experienced before, but one for which it has been waiting and planning. It tried synthesis forced and saw it fail, it then can only guess what the outcome may be if the organics chose it instead. And so it takes the risk. Again, only shepherd has chosen this, and in this scenario he’s now dead. All other organics have only ‘chosen’ this outcome insofar as they have chosen to set aside their differences and work together as opposed to abusing the powers they hold over one another.
Tl;dr: there is (or should be) a paragon destroy and a renegade destroy ending, same as there is a paragon control ending and a renegade control ending.
p.s. I chose destruction but headcanon I really appreciate control… because in my Andromeda headcanon my pathfinder is droping rachni and thresher maw eggs on uninhabited planet and his associated ark supports elcor, yahg, vorcha, varren, and geth. I love the idea of including a race made of individuals who are themselves entire civilizations. My headcanon for control is abit more complex, including new reproduction cycle for the reapers, to replace the previous cycle, now the sick, wounded, elderly of each civilization may voluntarily travel through the mass relays to a central location for a 60-85% chance (depending on age) of being compatible to be processed into immortal reaper form.
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Post by sil on Feb 26, 2017 22:36:58 GMT
Synthesis sounded too much like being uploaded into the gestalt mind of a Reaper. So I destroyed.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 27, 2017 23:19:18 GMT
I destroyed not out of any hatred of synthetics, or a belief that the Reapers were right, but because I wanted the Reapers gone. Control, Synthesis and Refuse all leave Reapers in the world.
Not sure I buy it that there's no proof of peaceful krogan. Eve/Bakara is one example. Charr is another. Sure, those are two in a sea of deadly krogan mercs, but it shows that even under the worst conditions the krogan are capable of being something more. If conditions aren't so bad? Well, maybe there could be peace, at least if Eve and Wrex are both alive. Under other circumstances, the krogan might not be ready to exist with an uncontrolled birthrate. EDIT: Also, the krogan who works for Mr. Thax (Illium) is extremely pleasant and well-manner. The krogan on the Citadel asking about the fish don't seem so bad, either.
I disagree on a Paragon Shepard being unable to destroy the Reapers. The rachni queen convinced him that a "sound" had corrupted other rachni but that peace is what they're about under normal circumstances. Proven true, in a way, since we later learn the Protheans bred them to be violent. In other words, it's not their nature. When away from the influence of the Protheans and Reapers they behave normally. Krogan screw up but they're not an intrinsically evil race. Violent, yes, but capable of a full range of emotions. After we meet Legion, we see that even the geth aren't necessarily what we thought, even going so far as to ask an organic for help. But Reapers? All they do is kill. They've committed genocide on a scale that can't even be imagined. Uncounted people not just slaughtered but also tortured, indoctrinated and turned into zombies. Worse, if not stopped, they will continue to do this until the end of time. I think there's plenty of justification for even the nicest person to conclude that Reapers have to be eliminated.
As for whether or not Reapers are a product of Synthesis, I don't know, but husks definitely are. It's one reason I don't [roleplay] trust what the Catalyst has to say about Synthesis. I've already seen it in action and don't care for the results. I do also suspect the Crucible is ultimately something conceived of by the Reapers (or else why need the AI no one knew about to make the choices) but the rest is all pure conjecture. Though I'm thinking maybe the Catalyst said it tried before?
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Post by shepherdcommander on Feb 28, 2017 3:22:24 GMT
Did not mean to argue that a pure paragon would not destroy, although I see I explicitly wrote that, I actually meant that there is a paragon side to destroy and a renegade side, and a paragon side to control and a renegade… most IT believers, I imagine, would say that control is as bad as synthesis in that you still ‘wake up indoctrinated’ but I think there is a serious difference.
TIM and saren who represent control and synthesis respectively, had different goals, TIM said that destroying the reapers would be a mistake but he didn’t want what the reapers wanted, by the time he was fully indoctrinated he said that his ‘integrated’ soldiers were ‘being improved’, that was his pre-indoctrination goal for humanity, human improvement, but I don’t think he would have agreed if he were not indoctrinated, that is to say if TIM were not indoctrinated I do not think he would see his integrated soldiers as an improvement for humanity, but I do think that even if he were not indoctrinated he would still want to control all the powers of the reapers, meanwhile saren supported the reapers and pretty much viewed them as gods who would open the way to a new level of evolution.
In this way TIM does not represent the Paragon Control ending just the same as Anderson does not represent the Renegade Destroy ending, Anderson did not wish to destroy all synthetics everywhere, and TIM did not want to rewrite the reapers the way shepherd rewrote the heretics. I think that’s valid, the paragon control ending makes it out more like the reapers through shepherd have gained some understanding of emotion, as opposed to the renegade controls’ galactic guardian out for revenge. A pure paragon is justified, in my opinion, in choosing to genocide the reapers, they are ‘pure evil’ especially in comparison to the other species I mentioned that shepherd is unwilling to genocide, but a pure paragon might also see that the reapers are entire civilizations of species twisted into synthetic forms and forced into cyclic harvesting by the catalyst AI, who would, given free will, choose not to do as the catalyst wishes. Point taken on the rachni/krogans, I was exaggerating to make my case.
I don’t fully believe IT, I do think the AI is trying to trick you though, which confuses me as to why it would only offer synthesis with a high EMS, I mean I get it as I wrote before (convince catalyst you are worthy), but if control is a legitimate choice then there’s really no trick if you have a low EMS, and THAT choice gets made when you choose to emp or blow up the collector base.
edit: I just realized something that has some pretty serious implications. synthesis and destroy both show the citadel being destroyed while in control the citadel remains intact. this to me implies that the citadel, being referred to as apart of the AI, and the AIs home, is necessary to the maintenance of the catalyst AI control over the reapers, I.E. when shepherd AI takes control of the reapers he does so by "becoming the citadel", and likewise when the citadel is destroyed in synthesis the reapers are freed from its control. I remember hearing about one of the differences between a VI and an AI is that the AI is intrinsically apart of its hardware, which is also why EDI cannot be rebuilt in the canon destroy ending. this is something i have not heard anyone else actually say: the catalyst AI is killed, destroyed, 100% gone, in the synthesis ending!
edit2: If IT were real, destroy and control would be presented as trick options so that shepherd would show the AI where his heart lies, if shepherd has a low EMS the AI does not care where shepherds heart lies, or already knows (presenting control or destroy based on whether one controlled or destroyed the collector base), and shepherd with low EMS is always doomed to death. With high EMS shepherd can choose synthesis to show the AI that he is capable of seeing the bigger picture, of working with the reapers, or reject to ‘wake up’. In this case both control and destroy result in shepherds death, or perhaps destroy results in a rejection ending hence the breathe scene, while control (this makes sense!) shows shepherd dying, being vaporized, maybe it was the opposite of what the AI said, his body was being huskified thus deleting his mind but preserving his body/essence, it was his mind being vaporized (which makes sense if the scenes are IT/dreams/visions happening in his/her mind). So refuse/destroy result in the same and control/synthesis result in the same but refuse and synthesis are the only real options. Synthesis is what the AI wants you to choose, it will accept control, it would accept destroy with a low EMS because it would be in a position to kill shepherd (this makes sense! With a low EMS the cutscene shows reapers right on top of the crucible!!), it does not want destroy with high EMS and it does not want refuse. As to why the catalyst presents the destroy option, it does so alongside the control option as a means to gain shepherds trust, presenting a supposed weakness that shepherd could exploit but neither are real, the reapers would not be destroyed or controlled regardless of his choice. aaaand this is where one should stop paying attention to the end. gonna go back to Alternate MEHEM now, before head explodes.
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Post by koshea on Mar 9, 2017 21:15:40 GMT
In my opinion the only explanation that makes sense for the breath scene being the last thing is indoctrination, and regardless of EC dlc we don't have an ending that wraps anything up. What we have is only what Sheppard knows about and an ending that plays out in a dreamlike haze to pacify Sheppard (and the fans) before he either dies or wakes up.
We really don't know anything that happened after Harbinger stopped anybody from getting to that beam.
is about as close to a real ending as I'll ever see. I kind of ignore the 5 years after part, that's practically impossible based on the myriad of different choices the player could make.
What I wanted would have been something like
- Deal with an attempt to indoctrinate Sheppard in some way, he's been way too close to reapers for way to long for this to just be missing. - EMS determines how much of the reaper's forces are occupied in a space battle, less EMS means everything else is harder to complete. A bonus amount of reaper attention could be taken up by certain assets, for example quarian fleet and salarian fleets means you didn't make other choices that will come up or you were really good and got both sides (like quarian and geth) - A series of challenges that need to be overcome and choices you made in the three games determine who or what forces can meet that challenge. Have a ranked system of who is best at it and after the top 5 or so choices someone else takes over and fails to complete the challenge - With the highest EMS ratings the top 3 people can complete the task successfully and not die, the next two complete it but die - As EMS get's lower more reaper forces can concentrate on more tactical objectives making the challenges harder, for example below the first break point number 5 fails and number 3 succeeds but dies and harder and harder as EMS score goes down. - With three games worth of choices to draw from you could combine scenario's down to about 10 challenges.
There are two options to tie it all together. 1.) You could have to pass 80% of the tasks or so in order for the reapers to be defeated 2.) Each task you fail in the sequence steps up the difficulty of the next task (fail twice and now only the best lives and only the top 3 suceed even if they die etc., step it up one more time and no one succeeds without dieing, 2 more fails and there is no way to beat the reapers)
It could be a combination of choices that help determine an order of opperations for example 1 Wrex is alive, Grunt is Alive, Genophage cured - Wrex leads a cunning dangerous plan and Grunt covers him when things go sideways, he has plenty of soldiers to deal with what may come. 2 Wrex is alive, Grunt is Dead, Genophage cured - Wrex leads a cunning dangerous plan without anyone competent to back him up when things go sideways but he has plenty of soldiers remaining by this point 3 Wrex is dead, Grunt is Alive, Genophage cured - Wreav orders a standard charge and Grunt leads a large number of Krogan headfirst against the Reaper forces. 4 Wrex is alive, Grunt is Alive, Genophage not cured - Wrex leads a cunning dangerous mission with Grunt pulling more than his share of the weight but they have to make due with a thinned out crew of Krogan to get the job done. 5 Wrex is dead, Grunt is dead, Genophage cured - Only the easiest, most distracted by other battles reaper force will be overcome by a bunch of Krogan being lead headfirst by Wreav into battle.
Anything else, is an automatic fail, even at easiest 4 and 5 will succeed but die in the process, If EMS isn't high enough initially and/or previous challenges aren't overcome then this challenge becomes progressively more difficult depending on how you tie everything together to determine success.
Keeping Wrex alive was difficult in the first game if you played through blind so should be rewareded big time as the ranking's above indicate, Curing the genophage on the other hand was an either or choice to be made before you got to this point so the other side (salarian support) needs to come into play somewhere else otherwise it's a bad for you or good for you choice and that's not really much of a choice is it.
Long story short...I chose destroy, the kid's a liar and destroy was the mission all along anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 17:30:52 GMT
Red because I felt it was very out of place to suddenly get these three choices from some 'thing' that just so happened to look like the kid I had been seeing in my dreams and that quite likely got blown up in a building but somehow survived in a vent and magically vanished a second later. The one thing I knew for sure is that if I am having a conversation with something that is an image projected from my mind there is some level of a delusional state or manipulation taking place. Perhaps at minimum I am giving it that form for whatever reason but why do I need to give it that form? I have seen countless things in my time alive so what need could there possibly be that isn't highly suspect? Or, if it is presenting in that form and it is not some process within me that is choosing that form, how does it know to use that form? Has it been involved in presenting that form to me all that time? Is it doing that intentionally or is that simply how it happens and the form is not its specific choice but some kind of inevitable outcome? Either way, seeing that starbrat makes me feel rather uncomfortable about all of it and the one choice that 'it' seems to really not want me to take is destroy, therefore, for me, destroy is the only option because nothing else here seems to make sense.
I suppose the other possibility is that this could be some aspect of my mind telling me that destroy is the worst option, but then why was I burning when I saved that boy? That seems more a possible warning. Tim wanted to control them and the kid says he never could have because he was already indoctrinated. But now he is telling me that I am absolutely not. Is here a way to know that is true? Saren tried Synthesis and he lost himself as a result, but now I can magically pull it off because the boy says so? Two of the worst foes I have faced before now have tried the two other options. I have seen them. I know the outcome. Do I really believe I am special enough to be able to do it? Saren did. Tim did. Both indoctrinated. Anderson who I trust says destroy. We made this plan from the start. Why would I suddenly change this plan? I know Saren and Time tried the other options believing they could. Am I sure this device really allows me these options or could my mind be playing tricks on me presenting me with what I have already seen and know others to have tried and failed? And again, why am I seeing this kid? Do I trust him? What do I feel when I see him? Regret. Guilt. Fear. Worry. Doubt. Failure. Horror. Remorse. Those emotions are manipulators. Why don't I see Anderson? Because if Anderson told me anything other than destroy I would know something is very wrong and I would not trust it. We had a plan. So this kid and the choices he wants me to take are the choices I should not take at all. I already know their outcomes.
Destroy it is.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 16, 2017 1:15:14 GMT
@illianaunknown: Though I agree with Destroy, there was one thing that struck me odd about your post. The idea that in the dream it was Shepard who was burning with the boy. I always assumed that was the clone. This dream comes after the clone and all the voices you hear are of the dead. That said, I've only ever played ME3 with Citadel DLC installed. If that's not present, is the third dream the same? Funny how that dream could be interpreted very differently depending on whether or not you have a particular DLC installed. koshea: How does the breath scene mean indoctrination? Really don't understand and I've read plenty of the IT stuff. It only comes with Destroy. If you chose Destroy, there's an explosion. Shepard gets buried in rubble. Nothing indicates where Shepard is found but there's no reason to think he's not still on the Citadel. The explosion isn't enough to kill him so he's still alive but to me it looks like his face is damaged. I suppose you could read that he's still passed out in front of the beam and never fought Marauder Shields or had his conversation with Anderson and TIM, but it's more likely that events played out directly as shown.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 1:20:06 GMT
@illianaunknown : Though I agree with Destroy, there was one thing that struck me odd about your post. The idea that in the dream it was Shepard who was burning with the boy. I always assumed that was the clone. This dream comes after the clone and all the voices you hear are of the dead. That said, I've only ever played ME3 with Citadel DLC installed. If that's not present, is the third dream the same? Funny how that dream could be interpreted very differently depending on whether or not you have a particular DLC installed. I had the game from the start before that DLC came out. Shepard watches him/herself burn with the kid next to him/her. There is no clone or you have no knowledge of the clone at that point. So it is you or you would think it is you burning with the kid.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 16, 2017 1:28:42 GMT
@illianaunknown : Though I agree with Destroy, there was one thing that struck me odd about your post. The idea that in the dream it was Shepard who was burning with the boy. I always assumed that was the clone. This dream comes after the clone and all the voices you hear are of the dead. That said, I've only ever played ME3 with Citadel DLC installed. If that's not present, is the third dream the same? Funny how that dream could be interpreted very differently depending on whether or not you have a particular DLC installed. I had the game from the start before that DLC came out. Shepard watches him/herself burn with the kid next to him/her. There is no clone or you have no knowledge of the clone at that point. So it is you or you would think it is you burning with the kid. That's so neat. With the DLC, you would obviously assume it's the clone. Or, at least I did because the clone died. Hmm...that means I have to rethink what it's all about.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 16:08:01 GMT
I destroyed not out of any hatred of synthetics, or a belief that the Reapers were right, but because I wanted the Reapers gone. Control, Synthesis and Refuse all leave Reapers in the world. Not sure I buy it that there's no proof of peaceful krogan. Eve/Bakara is one example. Charr is another. Sure, those are two in a sea of deadly krogan mercs, but it shows that even under the worst conditions the krogan are capable of being something more. If conditions aren't so bad? Well, maybe there could be peace, at least if Eve and Wrex are both alive. Under other circumstances, the krogan might not be ready to exist with an uncontrolled birthrate. EDIT: Also, the krogan who works for Mr. Thax (Illium) is extremely pleasant and well-manner. The krogan on the Citadel asking about the fish don't seem so bad, either. I disagree on a Paragon Shepard being unable to destroy the Reapers. The rachni queen convinced him that a "sound" had corrupted other rachni but that peace is what they're about under normal circumstances. Proven true, in a way, since we later learn the Protheans bred them to be violent. In other words, it's not their nature. When away from the influence of the Protheans and Reapers they behave normally. Krogan screw up but they're not an intrinsically evil race. Violent, yes, but capable of a full range of emotions. After we meet Legion, we see that even the geth aren't necessarily what we thought, even going so far as to ask an organic for help. But Reapers? All they do is kill. They've committed genocide on a scale that can't even be imagined. Uncounted people not just slaughtered but also tortured, indoctrinated and turned into zombies. Worse, if not stopped, they will continue to do this until the end of time. I think there's plenty of justification for even the nicest person to conclude that Reapers have to be eliminated. As for whether or not Reapers are a product of Synthesis, I don't know, but husks definitely are. It's one reason I don't [roleplay] trust what the Catalyst has to say about Synthesis. I've already seen it in action and don't care for the results. I do also suspect the Crucible is ultimately something conceived of by the Reapers (or else why need the AI no one knew about to make the choices) but the rest is all pure conjecture. Though I'm thinking maybe the Catalyst said it tried before? Also, you cannot even make the argument that there are nice reapers out there. Every one of them commits genocide and justifies it with broken logic. Yeah, sociopaths do the same thing. Probably psychopaths too. Interesting take on the catalyst. I remember back in 2012 within the debate on the endings, if they were good, bad or meh and the rise of indoctrination theory one of the things that was discussed a bit was that the citadel might have had some level of indoctrination built into it. Like a very, very low level. Probably the weakest strength possible. This was one of the logical justifications as to why everyone dismissed Sovereign almost instantly after the attack. A piece that I don't recall being mentioned was that Mass Relay statue that you come through from Ilos. When you walk by it with Kaidan (I think it is him) he remarks that he can hear a low hum from it. Nobody else seems to notice. Now that could be simply because it is in effect a relay, but at that time it was no active. This was early within the game, at the very start when I am doing all the citadel quests before heading out while they are getting things in order for me to go after Saren. I don't think it was actually active at that point but I will have to pay closer attention when I do my next ME run. If not, that could be one of those sounds that is emitted to indoctrinate, but more slowly and meant to happen over a prolonged period. Having the Citadel as a hub that also does light level indoctrination (rather than the intense indoctrination that results from actual reapers) would make sense. If that is where they begin their attack, then having initial resistance thwarted to some degree by everyone on it being less likely to fight would give the reapers a first way of ground troops from everyone on it as they turn them all into whatever abominations they would be. I thought it was mentioned somewhere in the game that the citadel was taken first or was under reaper control, perhaps by Javik. I thought he said he never got to see it and that was the reason why. I'll have to pay attention when I do my MET run. Ah, found a link: www.reddit.com/r/Indoctrinated/comments/30ygvj/could_the_citadel_being_reaper_tech_indoctrinate/
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 16, 2017 17:52:38 GMT
@illianaunknown: Never been a big fan of IT. I think ME3, particularly Citadel DLC, works against it. The Citadel Archives show that the Council did, in fact, believe Shepard all along. MEA also has Garrus's father mentioning that the Council believed. (Well, they say they were doubting disbelieving him.) If that were indoctrinated, the doubts wouldn't be there. I think their problem is that they're so secure in their power that they believe there's nothing out there that they can't defeat. Since they do ultimately aid Shepard in ME3 it wouldn't make sense that they were indoctrinated, especially since the Reapers were there in force and any subtle indoctrination would have shifted to control.
Yes, I'm aware of Kaidan sensing the Conduit relay. I chalked that up to him being sensitive to dark matter or eezo, things which would be components of a relay. For all we know many people have sensed the relay over the years and dismissed it. Though, funny enough, a biotic Shepard, Liara and Wrex never make any comment about it. (IIRC, even Soldier Shepard is mentioned by Kaidan to have an L3 implant.)
As far as control of the Citadel, they always had the Keepers for that. Once they had the Citadel firmly under control they could do some intense indoctrination or just bring in dragon's teeth to turn people into whatever constituted husks for these other races. In the last cycle, the Protheans were able to figure out how to thwart the signal - that is, they figured out after the fact. So when this cycle rolls around Sovereign sends the signal and nothing happens. Different outcome. This cycle (barring Refuse ending) sees the Reapers defeated. And even if Refuse is chosen, we know from the stargazer that the Reapers do not win out in the next cycle. I just don't see the signs of people being indoctrinated on the Citadel other than (sort of) the Keepers.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 17, 2017 2:25:41 GMT
Also, you cannot even make the argument that there are nice reapers out there. Every one of them commits genocide and justifies it with broken logic. Yeah, sociopaths do the same thing. Probably psychopaths too. Logic isn't broken. But beyond that the view of the Reapers and their actions are from our perspective. The same could be said of humans if you apply an outside perspective as well. And that is the interesting thing about the Reapers. They aren't really wrong and they aren't truly evil.
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Post by parsival on Apr 17, 2017 9:18:02 GMT
Throughout virtually the whole of the game, Shepard is constantly trying to find 'another way'. I think the knowledge that the game was ending at that point leads many players to choose one of the standard choices presented to you by the Reaper child, when in reality many Shepards would have refused to be forced into making any of them.
'Refuse' is quite possibly the choice of the true role-player.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 17, 2017 11:27:58 GMT
Throughout virtually the whole of the game, Shepard is constantly trying to find 'another way'. I think the knowledge that the game was ending at that point leads many players to choose one of the standard choices presented to you by the Reaper child, when in reality many Shepards would have refused to be forced into making any of them. 'Refuse' is quite possibly the choice of the true role-player. Refuse is the only choice of a true role-player if you are role playing a Shepard that would watch a child get hit by a car just to prove they are right. Or one so spineless that they can't make any tough choices when needed. Instead backing away from anything really challenging. The Reapers are currently tearing the Fleets of a galaxy a new ass hole. The Catalyst offers alternatives to the slaughter and you are given choices with the weight of trillions of lives that will live or die by your choice. There are no other alternatives to take. Picking refuse is simply giving up and letting those trillions die because you don't like the choices offered. Cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 17, 2017 11:41:43 GMT
Its good to see destroy ahead by a large margin. excellent
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Post by parsival on Apr 17, 2017 12:06:23 GMT
Throughout virtually the whole of the game, Shepard is constantly trying to find 'another way'. I think the knowledge that the game was ending at that point leads many players to choose one of the standard choices presented to you by the Reaper child, when in reality many Shepards would have refused to be forced into making any of them. 'Refuse' is quite possibly the choice of the true role-player. Refuse is the only choice of a true role-player if you are role playing a Shepard that would watch a child get hit by a car just to prove they are right. Or one so spineless that they can't make any tough choices when needed. Instead backing away from anything really challenging. The Reapers are currently tearing the Fleets of a galaxy a new ass hole. The Catalyst offers alternatives to the slaughter and you are given choices with the weight of trillions of lives that will live or die by your choice. There are no other alternatives to take. Picking refuse is simply giving up and letting those trillions die because you don't like the choices offered. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. But Shepard doesn't know the game is about to end - the player does, the character doesn't. Time and again, the Commander goes on about 'finding another way' or 'choosing different paths'.
Shepard doesn't intend to lose by refusing, and quite possibly goes down fighting after more years of victories that just don't turn the war.
It is only the meta-game knowledge of the impending end of the game that makes the standard options desirable - certainly from any kind of Paragon Shepard who has made peace between the Geth and the Quarians. Refusing the choices presented is the truly tough choice - the challenging one. Being spoon fed choices by the hated Reapers is the easy option.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 19:58:02 GMT
Blue. Red is imo the worst ending for the galaxy (except for denial of course). So much death and destruction and the likeliness of more horrible conflicts in the future (Krogan domination anyone?). No one should be allowed to control the Reapers, except for me obviously.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 17, 2017 21:19:08 GMT
Refuse is the only choice of a true role-player if you are role playing a Shepard that would watch a child get hit by a car just to prove they are right. Or one so spineless that they can't make any tough choices when needed. Instead backing away from anything really challenging. The Reapers are currently tearing the Fleets of a galaxy a new ass hole. The Catalyst offers alternatives to the slaughter and you are given choices with the weight of trillions of lives that will live or die by your choice. There are no other alternatives to take. Picking refuse is simply giving up and letting those trillions die because you don't like the choices offered. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. But Shepard doesn't know the game is about to end - the player does, the character doesn't. Time and again, the Commander goes on about 'finding another way' or 'choosing different paths'.
Shepard doesn't intend to lose by refusing, and quite possibly goes down fighting after more years of victories that just don't turn the war.
It is only the meta-game knowledge of the impending end of the game that makes the standard options desirable - certainly from any kind of Paragon Shepard who has made peace between the Geth and the Quarians. Refusing the choices presented is the truly tough choice - the challenging one. Being spoon fed choices by the hated Reapers is the easy option.
Game ending no. How ever his life is ending yes. Remember before he got to the Citadel he was hit by Harbinger's beam. Well not directly hit but was caught in an indirect explosion that turned a Mako into a smoldering jigsaw puzzle. His kinetic barrier was destroyed, his armor designed to withstand extreme conditions and impacts was broken and melted in locations. The only thing you could argue keeping him alive is the extensive cybernetic implants that allow him to go beyond normal damage a fully organic body could withstand and keep going. End of his life he is presented options that might stem the slaughter of all organic life in the galaxy at the hands of the Reapers. To refuse shows his opinion is more important is worth more then trillions of lives and/or that he is incapable of making the important choices when needed. This is also why the breath scene at the end of Destroy ending is the single most stupid and unrealistic set up of the entire game. And that bar for stupid and especially unrealistic set up is set way up there. Refusing is the same as losing because from game one a single fact is beaten into the head of not only Shepard but the player. The Reapers are unstoppable by conventional means. Every instant of a Reaper being destroyed. Every Reaper defeated in game needed over whelming odds against it or a deus ex machina to be taken down. From Sovereign shorting out because a glorified husk some how caused a power failure, to a massive thresher maw taking down a small destroyer to the entire Quarian Fleet firing at a destroyer from orbit. All refuse does is lead the current cycle to a slow and painful end. With the vague hope that the next cycle might be able to stop the Reapers. But that requires a metric ton of dominoes to fall into line for that to happen. The player learns that it does eventually happen but sitting there on the Citadel from Shepard's PoV. You are more likely to win the lotto while riding a unicycle on top of the Great Pyramid of Giza while being struck by lightening. Refusing to do anything is the easy choice. I can easily sit back and refuse to try and change society it is easy. It is hard to get up and organize, march, make your voice heard and do something that changes the world for the better. Using the hypothetical paragon, peace between Geth and Quarian the only choice that makes sense is Synthesis. But to actually make one of those choices. To never be sure if you are making the right choice or not. Never being known if things will turn out alright. That is the difficult choice. An infant can sit back and do nothing. It takes an adult to give their life in hopes they made the best choice for everyone.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 17, 2017 22:03:50 GMT
Throughout virtually the whole of the game, Shepard is constantly trying to find 'another way'. I think the knowledge that the game was ending at that point leads many players to choose one of the standard choices presented to you by the Reaper child, when in reality many Shepards would have refused to be forced into making any of them. 'Refuse' is quite possibly the choice of the true role-player. It is if Shepard thinks he can find a solution that doesn't involve the Reapers. Since we know that these choices are it we have to step outside of RP. Refuse means that humanity (and the other species we know) dies. That means we failed. But, yes, an in-the-moment, thinks-there's-another-way Shepard would probably assume all three choices are a trap. However, this all proves that the options provided are forcing us to select outside of RP and it wasn't done well. I think it would have been better if we'd found out about these options in an entirely separate way that did not involve the Catalyst.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 17, 2017 22:07:11 GMT
I'm just gonna leave this quote from Hackett here: "Dead Reapers are how we win this."
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Post by themikefest on Apr 17, 2017 22:14:51 GMT
I'm just gonna leave this quote from Hackett here: "Dead Reapers are how we win this." we destroy them, or they destroy us I'll leave this quote from themikefest - Destroy is #1. Long live destroy. excellent
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 23:15:29 GMT
In the end, because Bioware couldn't come up with anything else to end the saga, the Reapers just let you win. Like a player dominating a game who gets bored and says "yea whatever, you win." I'm always tempted to refuse because that's so cheap. That's the problem with creating an enemy that is so vastly overpowered I guess, how could you make any believable story that ends in their defeat?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2017 0:45:10 GMT
Throughout virtually the whole of the game, Shepard is constantly trying to find 'another way'. I think the knowledge that the game was ending at that point leads many players to choose one of the standard choices presented to you by the Reaper child, when in reality many Shepards would have refused to be forced into making any of them. 'Refuse' is quite possibly the choice of the true role-player. It is if Shepard thinks he can find a solution that doesn't involve the Reapers. Since we know that these choices are it we have to step outside of RP. Refuse means that humanity (and the other species we know) dies. That means we failed. But, yes, an in-the-moment, thinks-there's-another-way Shepard would probably assume all three choices are a trap. However, this all proves that the options provided are forcing us to select outside of RP and it wasn't done well. I think it would have been better if we'd found out about these options in an entirely separate way that did not involve the Catalyst. Yet there is never any real reason for any Shepard to find the Catalyst is lying unless you specifically want your Shepard to think that. Claiming the ending doesn't really fit within RP set up is entirely based on your RP. Which is to say you could make your Shepard a paranoid nut job who thinks the Quarians are really Xenomorphs in disuse.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 18, 2017 3:35:57 GMT
It is if Shepard thinks he can find a solution that doesn't involve the Reapers. Since we know that these choices are it we have to step outside of RP. Refuse means that humanity (and the other species we know) dies. That means we failed. But, yes, an in-the-moment, thinks-there's-another-way Shepard would probably assume all three choices are a trap. However, this all proves that the options provided are forcing us to select outside of RP and it wasn't done well. I think it would have been better if we'd found out about these options in an entirely separate way that did not involve the Catalyst. Yet there is never any real reason for any Shepard to find the Catalyst is lying unless you specifically want your Shepard to think that. Claiming the ending doesn't really fit within RP set up is entirely based on your RP. Which is to say you could make your Shepard a paranoid nut job who thinks the Quarians are really Xenomorphs in disuse. I assume anything the Reaper-creator says is probably a lie. I have no reason to trust them. They've been killing every sentient species they could get their hands on for over a billion years. Only a fool would trust them.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2017 4:23:38 GMT
Yet there is never any real reason for any Shepard to find the Catalyst is lying unless you specifically want your Shepard to think that. Claiming the ending doesn't really fit within RP set up is entirely based on your RP. Which is to say you could make your Shepard a paranoid nut job who thinks the Quarians are really Xenomorphs in disuse. I assume anything the Reaper-creator says is probably a lie. I have no reason to trust them. They've been killing every sentient species they could get their hands on for over a billion years. Only a fool would trust them. But again you are saying the game doesn't offer you logic that fits with RP. My Shepard trusts them because there is no reason not to. They have been nothing if not open and honest about their intentions and goals. Their actions might be morally questionable but not their truthfulness. This is an issue I kind of have when people try to justify their complaints against some aspect of the game with their RP set up. Because those problems are self created by the player's own choice. And problems that are self created (in this case the ending choices not fitting withing your RP set up) and those self created problems aren't really true problems with the game. If you don't have a gluten allergy but you choose to eat only gluten free products. You really don't have any room to complain that there is a very limited/non existent selection of food for you to eat at a restaurant. You created your own limitations by your own free will.
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