The elephant in the room

Even though the thing says the variables have been altered and its solution won't work, it will continue doing the harvest no matter what. Its limited to its programming.

I've never picked refuse. Nor do I have a reason to pick refuse

This is the Black Hole where Drew K's and Mac's plot meet each other.

Shepard (and humanity in general) were special before for specific reasons, and were considered the Reapers "last ditch" effort at solving their problem. Mac only kept this "last ditch" part, but grafted it on to another plot for inexplicable reasons.

 I interpret the Refuse things as follows:

-- The Catalyst connects the Crucible to the Citadel, but cannot activate any of its functions. Shepard is the true catalyst here.
-- As for not changing its approach after Refuse, I think the Catalyst comes away thinking that maybe he was not wrong after all, if organics are so self-preservation retarded as to not save themselves from getting Reap'd then he ought to just keep harvesting them.

I will give the same answer as I gave to a poster in another thread

The same reason why the reapers didn't head to the Citadel at the beginning of the game
The same reason why the destroyer on tuchanka and Rannoch didn't fire horizontally at Shepard instead of vertically
The same reason why the destroyer didn't fire at the Normandy in Vancouver instead of the two shuttles
The same reason why they didn't shutoff the beam in London
The same reason why Harbinger didn't fire at the Normandy during the what-the-crap evac scene

They're stupid. In other words the thing controlling the reapers is stupid. They had to be made stupid for Shepard and the galaxy to have any chance to defeat them

Another reason is because Bioware isn't very good at planning ahead. Look at the answer the thing gives about the crucible.

Another reason is BWT, bad writing theory.

Since I don't pick refuse,  I'm not worried about it trying to solve anything.

It's one of those things that don't make sense. There you go. Add it to the things that don't make sense thread

I firmly believe in bad writing theory. Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence. So, no intentional attempt to mislead or confuse the issue. No intention to be artsy for its own sake. No "shackled AI". They simply were not up to it. They were incapable of creating a scenario that makes sense, or at the very least, incapable of explaning it to the players in a way that made sense, because at the very end, they had an insufficient understanding of the themes they were writing about, and they were unable to escape the consequences of their lack of advance planning.

Or because the same reason for any video game. Why the all powerful villain doesn't crush the hero right away before they can gain power and support. Why all enemies conveniently get stronger in line with how strong you get. How when you beat a specific boss you get a specific upgrade that allows you to proceed in the game.


Seriously this set up has been a theme in all games since Mario Bros where Bowser would allow the hiding of power ups in the world to assist Mario in hunting him down and defeating him.

I understood it and I'm a self proclaimed idiot.

Am I just smarter then most ME players?

No I don't think writing was the issue. Though there are parts that could be improved.  Various talks with people on this forum and others about the game a trend shows up. To simpfy it it boils down to:

What players want. Which can encapsulate many things including what they think will happen, what they want to happen, and what they think everything means

and

What writers want. Which can encapsulate many things including what they think will happen, what they want to happen, and what they think everything means.

Ideally it should be a ratio of 30/70 player/writer set up. How ever the mentality and Issue I've run into when dealing with this game is the ratio are reversed with 70/30 player/writer set up.  Which creates problems because players will not or maybe can not let go of what they think is the only correct way to see things.  So when the game tells them something the responds is "this is bull shit and not what I want to happen." so later down the road when that bit of information comes into play and the player has already rejected it as stupid in their mind the part makes even less sense by your previous rejection of writer logic.

While I largely agree, I do think that "art for art's sake" was part of it.  They wanted to somehow "elevate" the story to be something more than an excuse to pwn space zombies.  To make it mor ethan an interactive comic book.  But, as you noted, they were not up to the task.  For largely the reasons you stated.

And yet everyone ignores the context of how that peace is made. Which is the most important part.  It is literally forced by a 3rd party standing there screaming at both sides "WTF do you idiots think your doing? We have a literal apocalypse happening right now and you idiots are fighting a petty war! We should be fighting to stay alive right now you block heads!!"

Seriously it is like saying look peace in the middle east is possible. But ignoring the fact that we nuked 90% of it into a massive radioactive parking lot. And told the remaining 10% that if they don't cut the shit out we will finish the job.  Yes peace was made. But if you ignore the context of how it came about you are missing the entire story and entire point.



Reapers were a Deus Ex Machina from the moment they are introduced. The fact that Sovereign had to over load from controlling a gloried Marauder should have been so obvious a blind person should have seen any ending involving Reapers would require a massive Deus Ex Machina to beat them.

Why wouldn't you trust it? This is the single best examples of players getting in their own way. They create a mentality of how they think Reapers should act and then cram them into their mental image. People attribute malice or sadistic enjoyment of their actions which is never supported in game.  Yes Reapers look down on organic races as lesser being for the same reason we look down on chimps as lesser beings.

The fact the Reapers have the ability to wipe out all live in the galaxy for ever. It is will within their capability to do so.  They also have the ability to manipulate the development of races into mindless drones who would willingly walk into slaughter to create another Reaper.  If they exercised 1/10th the malice players attribute them the events of ME series would have never happened. Because they would have simply bombed planet after planet from orbit. Rather then going about it in the most difficult way possible.

Catalyst is a neutral entity. TIM is the villain because his idea follows not only the same issue that caused the Krogan Rebellion. The gaining of super advanced technology before a society is ready for it. But also the issue of using that not for the betterment of all but the betterment of a few. In this case humans only putting the rest of the galaxy under their heel.

This is the single greatest case of players getting in their own way.


(3) Compounding the issue
Well, (2) was liable to break the ending on its own, but it might've been salvageable if not for (1). Because you know, the "inevitable conflict" wasn't sufficiently supported by the trilogy, so people found reason to reject that, too, and that means the Catalyst wasn't just the villain, it was also clearly not as knowledgable as it thought it was. So...

...bad writing made sure that instead of a very knowledgeable AI god we might trust to help with a plausible large-scale problem, we had a faulty machine villain who attempted to use a fake problem to manipulate us into doing its bidding.

I can hardly imagine a bigger failure to convey intent, and such failure, in the words of my favorite ME3 review, is the hallmark of failed art. I would've liked to see the setup work, but that would've taken better writing, better advance planning and better awareness of the themes.

And this is just ONE example. Issues like these abound in every one of the outcomes and the rationalizations for it. I was aware of this when I wrote my Synthesis interpretation. I intentionally didn't make an issue of it there because at that point, it was more important for me to find a somewhat satisfying conclusion, but it has, nonetheless, put an indelible stain on the ending of the trilogy.

And yet it is supported the problem is players tend to ignore the parts that they don't like.  You know how that whole thing about the Quarians creating a super advanced VI program that gained self awareness. Which in turn caused the Quarians to attack it. Which in turn caused the Geth to fight back and nearly render the Quarians extinct. With the Geth then taking the strict stance of kill all organics who enter their territory.

Cut to ME 2 and the only reason Legion was sent from the collective was to find Shepard and learn from him how to kill Reapers for their own personal protection and no one else. It was only once Legion lost complete track of Shepard and learned about the Heretic's plan did it choose not to return. Again not to assist or alert Organics of the problem but pure self interest. And agrees to assist only once captured. But mostly because Shepard would help for fill both primary and secondary objectives. An attack on a Reaper base would provide Legion with the data needed for Geth to protect themselves and Shepard would help assist in dealing with Heretics.  

Cut to ME 3 and the still keeping only to themselves the Quarians rather then attempting to negotiate with the Geth. Choose the route of an all out attack. Utilizing new technology to blind them and launch devastating attacks that severely crippled the Geth. Which causes them to turn to the Reapers out of sheer desperation. And only once the desperation passes do they regret the choice. With both sides of that conflict only caring about themselves. Quarians couldn't give less of a shit about helping the Geth and every single one of Legion's plans had everything to do with helping the Geth and any benefits to Quarians were purely secondary.  With the climax to the Rannoch story being both sides are willing to kill each other without hesitation.

It is supported by the story. What people ignore is the Reapers representing enough of a threat to everyone that it allows everyone to unite against them. If the Reapers were simply out to kill organic races and told the Geth they would be left alone. Only providing Geth with upgrades needed to take on Quarians the entire Rannoch story would have ended much differently. But the Reapers are after everyone organic and synthetic. They tried to dominate the Geth the same way they dominate organic life. This created the common enemy for the unity to form. Without the cause and effect of the Reapers the conflict would still happen and there would be no outside force to allow even the possibility of unity to exist between organics and synthetics. Someone would have done something. Most likely Qurians out of desperation attacking them which would have been repelled. Showing the Geth they can not be safe even if they try to stay to themselves. Which would be the reasoning they need to expand out and wipe out organic life for their own safety.

All this is extremely obvious to me. And I genuinely can not understand how and why people miss this.

There is no bad writing about this. Only people getting in their own way of understanding what is being said. Because they simply can not or will not accept their personal opinion about the events in game to possibly be wrong. Which then creates the problems people mention. And that is how you get those meme like "Yo dawg heard you don't like to be killed by synthetics. So I created synthetics to kill you every 50,000 years." Which completely misses the point and differences. A lot like calling the euthanasia of a suffering patient at their request the exact same as what John Wayne Gacy did.

Yes peace is archived by Shepard across 2 games calling both sides idiots. Because Shepard sees the Reapers as the real threat that needs all the focus.  Neither Geth nor Quarian are innocent on any accounts. Quarians still started the fight and the Geth still made actions that would be considered War Crimes if one race did it to another. The actions of both sides of the conflict have done what would be considered War Crimes in our world.

You ignore the fact that the ME world is our world just in the future. They have the same decades of movies and videos planting in the public mind about the dangers and threat of the AI overlord killing and controlling all people. Add in the Prothean's who left their own message about dangers and threat of AIs.  Mix in the near Genocide of the Quarians as they attempted to shut down the Geth. Which really plays into the whole superior AI overlord over throwing organic life mentality.  And that isn't even taking into account the very public and very infamous attack on the Citadel that the Geth stood front and center on. An attack that was done not by Geth being mentally dominated but by choice.

And all of this is suppose to be forgotten because a single Geth unit says something? I'm sorry but that is as naive thinking as having a serial killer say they are sorry and promise never to kill again is all they need to say to be let go.

Shepard forcibly wields both sides together and the heat he uses to cause that wield is the Reapers due to the mutual threat to all the pose.  No Reapers then no threat for Shepard to attempt to get them to lay down arms over to fight together against. Also no Reapers and Shepard isn't going to be there to even be able to call each side idiots so no even potential for peace.

How can you not see this incredibly simplistic series of cause and effect?  Context tells all and the context of the Quarian and Geth conflict is with out the threat of the Reapers to spur Shepard into action. And without the Reapers double crossing the Geth the peace that is a 33% chance to happen would never happen on it's own.



So? We have killed, destroyed civilizations and transformed countless organics into mostly disgusting and painful ways possibly to imagine.  Our history is filled with civilizations that build up, grew and were eventually destroyed and the people of it scattered to the winds. How many animals have we rendered extinct on our plant? How many do we actually have to spend billions world wide to protect to keep them from going extinct as well due to our actions?   You think the Bulldog family is perfectly ok? How about all those breathing problems we bred into them. Or the hip issues they suffer. How about the fact that due to inbreeding dogs like Dalmations are 80% more likely to develop a form of cancer then a mix breed?





And yet despite their action it is know that organic life has lived and continued to live for the millions if not billions of years they have been active. So well in fact that their very existence is generally unknown until they start the harvest.  This is particularly important because of what they can do but choose not to do. Their fire power they could wipe out organic life on every planet for now until the end of time. As they are nearly completely self sufficient it wouldn't do any harm to them. The only they they are shown to need is element zero.  Their advanced technology and knowledge of genetic engineering and indoctrination would easily allow them to enslave all primitive races and manipulate them into what they want. Or simply turn them into version of the Collectors.

In every sense of the word the Reapers are like a 12 time heavy weight MMA champion vs a fetus. They could crush it easily. But they choose the route of letting the fetus grow till it is 18 years old then they fight it while tying one hand behind their back.



The reasons do matter and the way the do it makes perfect sense.  They have to subdue the entire galaxy who will inevitably fight back against them. The only way to deal with that without wiping everything out would be to use ground troops. Turning their own people into the ground troops is excellent physiological warfare. This hearkens back to ye old days were attackers would cut off the heads of any captured soldiers or peasants and catapult them and their bodies into the city. The entire point was to attack the defenders mentally and weaken them.  And I would have to say being surround by people who want me dead then having a decapitated head land on me or possibly worse a decapitated slightly rotten body land on me. Would really mess with my mind.

The themes fit the game perfectly. What players do is they ignore context of who, what, when, why and how things happen if they don't like up with what they want things to say. Case in point your claim that peace is possible at Rannoch. But it ignores everything that went into it.  It ignores how the AI that Shep finds on the Citadel in ME 1 goes right to violence because it see's Shep as nothing but a threat to it because it is organic.  It ignores how after the Geth incident the Council passed even stricter regulations in dealing with AI. Which if AI are to be accepted as a living being would be the equivalent of the Council showing up on Earth and killing all scientists in the 1940 because they were working on nuclear physics. It ignores how the Citadel DLC shows a group of Turians rounding up peaceful AI's who were attempting to legally challenge a Council ruling and killing them without hesitation.  All these add up and all these feed to the over all theme about inevitable conflict.


And yet it still remains true.


No his methods are questionable but his goal is the issue. Domination of one race over all others. Utilizing technology centuries ahead of what we can comprehend. This is a repeat of the issues the Krogan faced. They were given technology far advanced to what their society was capable of utilizing in a smart way. And that lead to them rebelling and attempting to dominate all other life in the galaxy.  TIM seeks power for himself and only those he deems worth and to dominate all life in the galaxy. Reapers seek to maintain a homeostasis of the galaxy. It is a key and important difference between the two. 


You mean that good will that Tali and Admiral Koris had that was over ruled and led to the Quarians attacking the Geth in the first place? That the only way they will possibly back down is if you allow the Geth to self upgrade back into the state they were in when they were effectively wiping the solar system with them. That only the threat of the Geth wiping them out is enough to get them to stop attacking.



Legion out right says that it was sent out to find Shepard. Because he challenged and killed the Heretic's God. His code is superior.

Influencing the conflict isn't the same as making it inevitable or not. Because the conflict is already happening.  The US can influence conflict in the Middle East. But the influence doesn't mean it negates any inevitability of future conflict that will arise.



What have I said that is not supported by the plot? The plot supports everything I have said. Literally everything I have said is directly referenced by the game plot.



You don't have to make it your own you just have to understand their perspective. This is not a complicated thought process. At least to me. If for no other reason then simply to understand your enemy you have to think like them and gain their perspective of things. And the Reaper perspective is for the greater good. The long term 200 million years from now planning. Kill 5 trillion now so 500 quintillion can live later down the road.  As stated by the Catalyst it isn't the ideal solution but it is the only one that works. Because all other attempts have ended in failure.

If you can't stop people from abandoning cats so they become feral. And can't keep the feral cat population under control though catch and release spay and neuter. Eventually you reach the point that you have to start killing the cats. Other wise they colony gets so large that they decimate the local bird populations.  Other wise they will cause an ecological disaster. Up to and including causing the complete extinction of bird species due to over predation by feral cats.

And this is coming from a cat lover who regularly volunteers at a cat shelter several times a week.

The effort is there all you have to do is see it. How ever players are more interested in what they want to see then what is really there.  Can't see the forest though the trees. Their own preconceived notions of what they want over ride any other possible interpenetration. Which then comes into conflict with what is shown. Which in return causes stuff to not make sense.