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Post by NRieh on Dec 16, 2016 22:29:36 GMT
An interesting post about MEA video facial animation issues here. It's always nice to see GameDev's 'behind-the-scenes' point of view. (I've been away&busy recently, sorry if that one had already been mentioned).
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Post by Pearl on Dec 16, 2016 22:59:55 GMT
I didn't even notice the eyes, I was more focused on the spastic lip movements and rigid jaw.
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Post by Shinobu on Dec 16, 2016 23:15:17 GMT
Very interesting, thanks for sharing!
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Post by ddraigcoch123 on Dec 16, 2016 23:15:36 GMT
That's a really interesting post thanks for sharing... to be sure it has to be fixed or it will screw the entire game, I trust them to get it done... there is no alternative
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Post by colfoley on Dec 16, 2016 23:46:55 GMT
I'm not too worried. I believe they will be able to make the animations much better but even if they don't, I will have to get used to it. As long as the rest of the game is good it'll be jarring but playable.
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Sanunes
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 17, 2016 0:28:48 GMT
I'm not too worried. I believe they will be able to make the animations much better but even if they don't, I will have to get used to it. As long as the rest of the game is good it'll be jarring but playable. I am in the same situation, one thing I would have liked to know about the demonstration they showed us was how old that build of the game is. One thing I have read in the past is to make a game ready for a demonstration they can pull a build months before the demonstration date to make sure they have working what they are planning to demonstrate so those animations might be addressed by now in the current build, but they used one that is ancient.
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coldsteelblue
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Post by coldsteelblue on Dec 17, 2016 0:41:06 GMT
That was a rather interesting read, thanks for posting.
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Post by dagless on Dec 17, 2016 1:45:18 GMT
"There is an idea of a Sarah Ryder, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.”
- Bret Easton Ellis, Andromedan Psycho
But seriously... It's an interesting read, but seems to have a pretty major logical flaw.
It suggests Bioware deliberately gave Peebee the black stripe to compensate for lack of eyebrow movement, but then somehow just forgot to animate the protagonist with normal human expressions. That makes little sense.
The later part I can agree with though. It was an action packed game trailer with little character stuff involved. Could easily be that there's just not a huge amount of emotion involved in that one gun disarming scene. There's no real need to go all Roger Moore in every cinematic.
Too early to panic about inadequate eyebrows, if you ask me.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Dec 17, 2016 2:51:55 GMT
I saw more facial animation in the Tech-Demo than in the gameplay... but, i'm sure that part, the one with the "joker smile" ryder, wasn't polished at all. But Bio will get it done, i'm sure
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Dec 17, 2016 3:44:18 GMT
An interesting post about MEA video facial animation issues here. It's always nice to see GameDev's 'behind-the-scenes' point of view. (I've been away&busy recently, sorry if that one had already been mentioned). So pretty much what a bunch of us noticed here: No upper-facial animations. Personally, I'm not worried. Unless Bioware somehow forgot what kind of game they were making (story/character-heavy) or forgot how to do animations at least as good as DA:I, I'm sure they'll be at least as good as it was come launch. Granted, this is Montreal, not Edmonton, but I'm sure they allocated the proper personnel to make a full game. Lastly, it's probable the gameplay build was old (alpha?) and they concentrated on making sure the gameplay was bug-free for the purposes of the video in that build, while newer builds already have better expressions. I just can't fathom they'd only go halfway with the expressions in the final build. Oops, we forgot about the eyes/eyebrows.
Oh well, ship it.
But then again, they seemingly forgot they needed hair while making DA:I, so anything's possible
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 17, 2016 4:29:51 GMT
More or less in line with the things I've been hammering down ever since I saw the trailer. A) Them showing the game in this state this late indicates "polish" is not likely to improve the real issue behind the point that's being criticised here. It's not just the mouth that's off, it's the lack of expression in the eyes due to a lack of eyebrow movement. Now stop being apologetic about BioWare and realize they didn't think the animations were unacceptable before people pointed it out in the trailer, and polish will likely be spent on inserting animations where there aren't any and not fixing the ones they've already shown. I have a distinct feeling either Mac or someone else at the top of the project had gotten hints that this was an issue, but were like "Don't worry, folks we'll make it! Let's not make a mile out of a molehill lol!" and then nothing gets done, because they're too lenient. On the flipside I've heard they have full-performance scenes with face-scan-esque animations, so unless the ones we've seen is that, only gone wrong, the big moments might still have good animations. Overall though I think it's slightly on the embarrassing side and the worst BioWare has done within their cinematic-era.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Dec 17, 2016 5:41:52 GMT
I love how likenski just makes up negative scenarios and conversations and then treats it all as fact.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Dec 17, 2016 5:49:22 GMT
Now stop being apologetic about BioWare and realize they didn't think the animations were unacceptable before people pointed it out in the trailer, and polish will likely be spent on inserting animations where there aren't any and not fixing the ones they've already shown. I have a distinct feeling either Mac or someone else at the top of the project had gotten hints that this was an issue, but were like "Don't worry, folks we'll make it! Let's not make a mile out of a molehill lol!" and then nothing gets done, because they're too lenient. On the flipside I've heard they have full-performance scenes with face-scan-esque animations, so unless the ones we've seen is that, only gone wrong, the big moments might still have good animations. Overall though I think it's slightly on the embarrassing side and the worst BioWare has done within their cinematic-era. Your entire post needs a "Citation Needed"
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Post by surelyforth on Dec 17, 2016 5:58:09 GMT
"There is an idea of a Sarah Ryder, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.”- Bret Easton Ellis, Andromedan Psycho But seriously... It's an interesting read, but seems to have a pretty major logical flaw. It suggests Bioware deliberately gave Peebee the black stripe to compensate for lack of eyebrow movement, but then somehow just forgot to animate the protagonist with normal human expressions. That makes little sense. The later part I can agree with though. It was an action packed game trailer with little character stuff involved. Could easily be that there's just not a huge amount of emotion involved in that one gun disarming scene. There's no real need to go all Roger Moore in every cinematic. Too early to panic about inadequate eyebrows, if you ask me. That's not a logical flaw at all- character design is done well in advance of animations and is much easier. And it's not like BW isn't aware of how human expressions work- DAI characters could be quite expressive. The article is basically saying just this- Peebee's design is both a way to work around some of the issues they know they're going to have because Asari don't have eyebrows and a pretty big clue that BW at least knows the basics of expression.
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Post by Mellow MacVoutee on Dec 17, 2016 6:03:40 GMT
The most interesting thing that I take from this is that Liara has eyebrows. How in God's name did I not notice this before, particularly in the context of the recent issues involving another Asari with eyebrows?
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Post by hammerstorm on Dec 17, 2016 8:58:44 GMT
I love how likenski just makes up negative scenarios and conversations and then treats it all as fact. I'm rather used to that so I just take everything with a ton of salt. The most interesting thing that I take from this is that Liara has eyebrows. How in God's name did I not notice this before, particularly in the context of the recent issues involving another Asari with eyebrows? To be fair, they where painted on (and as he wrote we see it subconscious) and it was more of an issue on the Old BSN when Peebee was first introduced. And now I have flashbacks from all that.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 17, 2016 9:05:54 GMT
Good article, thank you for the link!
I'm just not sure whether the animation wonkiness of the MEA trailer is entirely caused by a lack of animated eyebrows. Look at the disarming scene - not just her eyebrows are weird, her mouth also looks a bit off and the gun twists out of the Turian's hand with a speed that's surprising even if his hands were still super greasy from recent calibrations.
Now it's probably safe to assume that a published trailer contains some of the best spoiler free material they have available - they want to generate positive attention and PR for their game, after all. They want to impress the audience. So this was the best they had, and it's five months to release. Hmm. While this does not particularly worry me, I can't for the life of me remember seeing an AAA game trailer with such animation issues before - and certainly not one where those issues were then fixed in the final product. If you play on Playstation and saw an Uncharted trailer with such animation problems five months before release, would you be worried?
I dimly recall that the devs assured us that there would still be a lot of polish going into the game before release, and that's good. No word about the scene being from an old build though, so if they are planning to fix it, it's still on their to do list.
In the end, I'm going with the article's conclusion - I'm not going to worry because BioWare should know better. They should also know better to release trailers with obvious issues in them, but then again, their marketing has always had the touch of awkwardness, and people have learned to cut them some slack for it.
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Post by Arcian on Dec 17, 2016 9:39:32 GMT
They also said they would fix the facial animation in ME3 and DA:I. We all know how that went.
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Post by jediguardian on Dec 17, 2016 9:51:40 GMT
For me, I don't notice at all (Including other facial thing many people complain on this forum). But if it will satisfy other, then they should make it look better.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 17, 2016 10:58:27 GMT
IF this does not get fixed it will be SWTOR, ME3 and DAI all over again. And if so there is only one solution: don't give character eyebrows in character creator.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 17, 2016 11:43:13 GMT
Thanks for sharing, an interesting insight into animations...though I was less bothered by the lack of emotion and more by the bad lip-syncing in the recent trailer.
I found the quote at the end interesting and quite possibly insightful...and more and more recently thinking it is the case.
But they could also have bitten off more than they could chew.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Dec 17, 2016 12:35:32 GMT
I am in the same situation, one thing I would have liked to know about the demonstration they showed us was how old that build of the game is. One thing I have read in the past is to make a game ready for a demonstration they can pull a build months before the demonstration date to make sure they have working what they are planning to demonstrate so those animations might be addressed by now in the current build, but they used one that is ancient. That is definitely the case. Demos need preparation. All the editing takes time too. How old that build really is we cannot say. What we got in terms of facial animations in DAI does not make me particularly optimistic about MEA, but the fact that Scott's face looks a lot more polished seems to suggest they are indeed still working on Sara. It's amazing how broken the games I worked with (localization) still were only weeks before release. Then all at once they fixed all the bugs and lag issues and shipped a decent game. A lot of non-critical issues get waived though. Meeting deadlines is a real problem. They always require compromise. This is also true for gameplay trailers, I assume. You want to show something, Bioware promised the next one would feature Sara, so Sara we got even if the animations are not perfect yet. If they'll ever really fix the issue is a different matter. But nothing is 100% representative of the final product until they actually stop working on it. And even after release, some things can be patched.
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Post by Balsam Beige on Dec 17, 2016 13:22:40 GMT
But they could also have bitten off more than they could chew
Now days, this shouldn't be acceptable with a Triple A company.
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Post by Arcian on Dec 17, 2016 14:24:44 GMT
But they could also have bitten off more than they could chew Now days, this shouldn't be acceptable with a Triple A company. It was one thing when they didn't use facial mocap and did all the anims by hand. With mocap there is simply no excuse.
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Post by kumazan on Dec 17, 2016 14:27:48 GMT
I love how likenski just makes up negative scenarios and conversations and then treats it all as fact. My theory is that he thinks he's too excited for the game and he's in a desperate fight against his inner self to keep expectations down. Seriously though, this seems pretty much in line to what I think and what many others have talked about. It's bad, yes, but it's too early to worry about this.
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