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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 11, 2017 15:49:39 GMT
As for ME in particular, Shepard is a less defined protagonist than Geralt, but still I had to fight the writers at every step in the MET, so much so that I almost came to hate Shepard in ME3. I certainly won't play a game where I must suspect to have the same kind of protagonist again - a moron with an action-hero shtick who only speaks in generalities. I don't really see how Shepard is a "moron," aside from maybe a few dialogue choices that are clearly there to solicit exposition and background from another character ("I though the Protheans vanished centuries ago") rather than as part of a normal conversation. His/her dialogue is perhaps somewhat bland at times, but that's probably so that it can accommodate a wide range of reasons why players might pick a particular dialogue choice - it leaves us to do a little more of the character-shaping in our own minds. For example, my canon Shep is a Paragon colonist with a touch of Earthborn (she spent a couple years living in a very rough neighborhood on Earth after the Mindoir attack). She's run into people like Aria before and does not find her "schtick" the least bit amusing. So after the "don't f*** with Aria" diatribe, I choose "Sounds like neither of us likes being jerked around" rather than "I like it, easy to remember" even though it gives me a couple of Renegade points. But she isn't actually threatening Aria, or trying to imply that she is - it's just her way of saying, "Whatever, I'm not impressed - just give me the information so I can go find Mordin and Archangel." Players who are playing more of a Renegade-minded Shepard might choose the same line and mean it more literally, i.e. you'd better not mess with me either.
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Post by Red on Jan 11, 2017 16:43:13 GMT
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 11, 2017 17:14:54 GMT
As for ME in particular, Shepard is a less defined protagonist than Geralt, but still I had to fight the writers at every step in the MET, so much so that I almost came to hate Shepard in ME3. I certainly won't play a game where I must suspect to have the same kind of protagonist again - a moron with an action-hero shtick who only speaks in generalities. I don't really see how Shepard is a "moron," aside from maybe a few dialogue choices that are clearly there to solicit exposition and background from another character ("I though the Protheans vanished centuries ago") rather than as part of a normal conversation. His/her dialogue is perhaps somewhat bland at times, but that's probably so that it can accommodate a wide range of reasons why players might pick a particular dialogue choice - it leaves us to do a little more of the character-shaping in our own minds. Three examples: (1) The end of ME2-Arrival (2) ME3 prologue: "The Citadel? The fight's here" (3) Dialogue after Thessia in ME3 You can almost feel yourself getting more stupid just by remembering.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 17:21:29 GMT
Eh. I thought there is much more consequences in TW than ME2, and more visible too. Also the definition of your character is all there as well aside from romance options. Just because you don't see the morality bar in The Witcher, does not mean you are that limited. Though, what was great in ME was the death of your companions if you screw up. I still remembered how I bawled when I lost Tali, Legion and that lovely singing scientist ( halp, woots his name) That would be Mordin Solus. EDIT: as for Shepard being a moron, well to paraphrase Mal Reynolds: "Yeah, but s/he is my moron!" Geralt is most definitely not. He is that Polish dude's Mary Sue, not mine. No matter what, he always was, and he always will be. Nothing I do in the game is going to change that sense of non-ownership.
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 11, 2017 18:19:28 GMT
I believe you make fair points, so let's divide in parts: Geralt x Shepard: I understand what you mean. Geralt can feel a more organic character and often can feel more "in tune" with the story. The problems Shepard have are also accurate, but I believe you're missing half of it. There is a trade off here, these problems Shepard have are a consequence of giving the player much more freedom in defining what kind of character Shepard should be, how he or she should respond to situations. I'll consider only ME2 here, which I believe is the only Mass Effect game that is better than TW3. It hit a very good spot between making Shepard feel like a real character and make it feel like your real character. I remember playing TW2, there is an auto-dialogue from Geralt that I believe illustrates all this qualities you gave him in your analysis. He gives a small speech about the policial situation of the elfs and the reasons for their suffering and what makes them be what they are (or something like that). It was well written and made Geralt feel smart and, as you put in, insightful. One could argue you don't have that in Mass Effect, but you have! Pick Tali's loyalty mission, the speech you can give to the admirals to convince them to let Tali walk is awesome, and shows a smart and insightful side of Shepard. But it's more than that. It shows all those qualities for your Shepard. There is a connection between player and character that The Witcher doesn't have. It wasn't just a speech, it was a very well written speeh that perfectly illustrates the view Shepard (and the player) created by the time he/she spent with the Quarians and with Tali. Sure it can lead to some frustration (especially in ME3) but I felt that in ME2 there were many times I felt that I was carving Shepard to be the chracter I wanted. Many dialogues, many interrupts, many situations let me to, by the end of the game, feel like this was an adventure that I truly was part of. And that Shepard was more than just a character, it was my character. Could he be a more defined character? Sure. Would that make it better? No, as ME3 showed us. So it's less about this or that and more about how you excecute your view. I believe ME2 did that better than TW3 did. As I said, Shepard is less defined than Geralt, and of course having a choice to be a moron or not is good. Shepard, however, has several important scenes where you can't choose not to be a moron, either because it's autodialogue or all options are stupid. I have mentioned three particularly moronic examples in my previous post. Also, in ME2 Shepard has the emotional range of a brick, which didn't bother me so much but that's as canonical as the macho tone particularly adopted by male Shepard, which I hated with a passion. The problem, as always, lies in those traits you can't opt out of, and here Shepard is much more dislikeable than Geralt for me. With Geralt, the worst I have to contend with is his canonical aversion to dressing up. I disagree, I think that the mission structure in ME2 hurt not just the game's story, but that of the trilogy a great deal. ME2 is basically a collection of character-related missions wrapped around a miniscule main plot whose significance for the whole story approached zero. TW3 had fewer of those missions and more main plot content involving characters, and that's a part of what makes its story more compelling. Also, that all companions have about the same amount of content dedicated to them makes ME2 feel decidedly artificial. TW3's major NPCs were an organic part of the story, but there's no "only" about that. That's what characters *should* be, else why have them in the story in the first place? That ME2's characters often weren't that was one of its major flaws. ME3 did significantly better by integrating the team into missions at least loosely connected to the main plot, but there were too many to make them all organic parts of the story. All in all, Bioware's formula means that most companions are non-essential and have only non-essential missions related to them, and that weakens the story since it depends on characters and their role in it. Of course that's a problem likely to appear in the party-based games Bioware makes, and less intrinsic to games like TW3 which don't give you a choice of characters who accompany you on your missions, but that doesn't make it any less of a problem. In addition, the perceived necessity for covering a certain range of character types creates another layer of artificiality. In principle, Bioware's approach has its merits for a party-based game, but I've grown disenchanted with it since increasingly I can't find types that appeal to me in Bioware's games - if I appear to find them, they turn out to be extremists (Solas) or they get character development I hate (Miranda). Oh, and there is yet another problem: Bioware's companions either don't have their own agendas beyond the personal that can be dealt with in a sidequest, or they put them on hold while accompanying the protagonist. Meanwhile in TW3, the major NPCs' personal agendas are interwoven with the main plot. The result feels signficantly more organic. I would, actually, prefer to see Bioware do away with the rule that you must be able to take any companion with you anywhere, and you give them dedicated screen time in small sidequests. I'd rather have main plot missions where certain characters play significant roles, roles that are different in scope and consequences. [/quote]
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 11, 2017 18:30:24 GMT
EDIT: as for Shepard being a moron, well to paraphrase Mal Reynolds: "Yeah, but s/he is my moron!" Geralt is most definitely not. He is that Polish dude's Mary Sue, not mine. No matter what, he always was, and he always will be. Nothing I do in the game is going to change that sense of non-ownership. That Shepard is a moron makes me automatically disown them. So, no difference here, and since Geralt has more canonical traits I like (such as not being a moron), I find it easier to play as him. The Inquisitor wasn't a moron, but there I didn't like the role I had to play, and just as I had peace with it, they took everything I had come to like about it away in Trespasser. In all three stories - DAI's, the MET's and TW3's, I do not have the freedom I would like to have, but only TW3 didn't thrust major character traits or roles upon me that I didn't like. The last Bioware game that likewise didn't do that was DAO.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 19:20:08 GMT
EDIT: as for Shepard being a moron, well to paraphrase Mal Reynolds: "Yeah, but s/he is my moron!" Geralt is most definitely not. He is that Polish dude's Mary Sue, not mine. No matter what, he always was, and he always will be. Nothing I do in the game is going to change that sense of non-ownership. That Shepard is a moron makes me automatically disown them. So, no difference here, and since Geralt has more canonical traits I like (such as not being a moron), I find it easier to play as him. The Inquisitor wasn't a moron, but there I didn't like the role I had to play, and just as I had peace with it, they took everything I had come to like about it away in Trespasser. In all three stories - DAI's, the MET's and TW3's, I do not have the freedom I would like to have, but only TW3 didn't thrust major character traits or roles upon me that I didn't like. The last Bioware game that likewise didn't do that was DAO. I can sort of kind of see your point, because there was one background in SWTOR that I just could not get into even after two different takes on the story, both male and female, a LS and a DS, but nothing ever shook my love for my Shepards. I just love that game to pieces and that whole character, no matter what she or he does. It's just soooo awesome. I am inclined not to buy DA:I, and stop that series after I finish DA2, because... I dunno, I have a bad feeling about it and the series just don't really make me feel that whole omigod, omigod, omigod!!!!!!!!! thing, but it's good enough to keep me from just dropping it mid-game. Geralt himslef, the character, the premise and the setting I did not like at the very first glance at the synopsis, so, I suppose I am just really not into Witcher. Like I said, I am hoping the CD project actually finally does release that non-witcher game they are working on, and then I will check it out.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 11, 2017 19:27:34 GMT
A few idle thoughts:
TW3 did a lot of things right that DAI got wrong. TW3 generally had more engaging sidequests and a generally better designed open world. The main story suffered though, and it says a lot that I actually think Corypheus was a better villain than what what we got from the wild hunt.
While TW3 had generally better designed open world locations, I kinda preferred DAI's general approach of having such a diversity of regions.
Ultimately though, there's a matter of taste involved regarding the story. If you prize customization and building your own character like me, DAI is the one you're going to replay.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 11, 2017 19:29:37 GMT
"Oh, and there is yet another problem: Bioware's companions either don't have their own agendas beyond the personal that can be dealt with in a sidequest, or they put them on hold while accompanying the protagonist. Meanwhile in TW3, the major NPCs' personal agendas are interwoven with the main plot." That is something that I'd like to see addressed. Although we have examples of that: Liara in LotSB or EDI is the assault on the Cerberus station. Wrex and Mordin in the Tuchanka arc and Tali and Legion in the Geth/Quarian conflict. And a few more probably. I would like more of those, even if cost some player freedom. But I also think Bioware should try to improve its formula, and not just change it.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 11, 2017 20:04:29 GMT
I don't really see how Shepard is a "moron," aside from maybe a few dialogue choices that are clearly there to solicit exposition and background from another character ("I though the Protheans vanished centuries ago") rather than as part of a normal conversation. His/her dialogue is perhaps somewhat bland at times, but that's probably so that it can accommodate a wide range of reasons why players might pick a particular dialogue choice - it leaves us to do a little more of the character-shaping in our own minds. Three examples: (1) The end of ME2-Arrival (2) ME3 prologue: "The Citadel? The fight's here" (3) Dialogue after Thessia in ME3 You can almost feel yourself getting more stupid just by remembering. (1) Arrival was just kind of stupid in general, IMO. I've outlined before why the whole scenario really shouldn't be happening, but in a nutshell, Kenson's behavior makes little sense as that of an indoctrinated agent, and she could have carried out her sabotage of the Project by refusing to tell the batarians anything and putting Shepard on a shuttle to pretty much anywhere else. Shepard's dialogue and available choices the best but neither is hardly anything in that mission - the first part of the Object Rho scene and the relay's destruction were the only parts that I thought were very well done. (2) That might go under "occasional stupidity for the purpose of exposition." Shepard might figure (s)he will be more useful on the front lines at Earth at first, but I wonder if it was also just BW figuring that new players might not know what the Citadel is. (3) Well, none of the crew are at their best at that point in the story. The one thing I would have changed is that most of the scenes with other crew members start with Shepard and the other character down in the dumps and working their way back towards some degree of optimism, but then it "resets" and you start from the same emotional place again in the next dialogue scene.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 11, 2017 20:13:16 GMT
The aftermath of Thessia is probably the worst written part of the Mass Effect trilogy.
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Gileadan
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 11, 2017 21:02:31 GMT
The aftermath of Thessia is probably the worst written part of the Mass Effect trilogy. Plus, for me personally that also happened at the worst possible moment - when I was still furious from the so obviously forced incompetence at Thessia. And then I found that "neener-neener" email from Kai Leng...
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Post by Ieldra on Jan 11, 2017 21:20:45 GMT
Three examples: (1) The end of ME2-Arrival (2) ME3 prologue: "The Citadel? The fight's here" (3) Dialogue after Thessia in ME3 You can almost feel yourself getting more stupid just by remembering. (1) Arrival was just kind of stupid in general, IMO. I've outlined before why the whole scenario really shouldn't be happening, but in a nutshell, Kenson's behavior makes little sense as that of an indoctrinated agent, and she could have carried out her sabotage of the Project by refusing to tell the batarians anything and putting Shepard on a shuttle to pretty much anywhere else. Shepard's dialogue and available choices the best but neither is hardly anything in that mission - the first part of the Object Rho scene and the relay's destruction were the only parts that I thought were very well done. (2) That might go under "occasional stupidity for the purpose of exposition." Shepard might figure (s)he will be more useful on the front lines at Earth at first, but I wonder if it was also just BW figuring that new players might not know what the Citadel is. (3) Well, none of the crew are at their best at that point in the story. The one thing I would have changed is that most of the scenes with other crew members start with Shepard and the other character down in the dumps and working their way back towards some degree of optimism, but then it "resets" and you start from the same emotional place again in the next dialogue scene. Maybe. The point, though, is this: neither kind of stupidity was in any way necessary, and thus I do not excuse it. Exposition can and should be done without making the protagonist stupid, drama like post-Thessia should be dropped if it doesn't make sense, and stupid subplots should be dropped before they go into production. Things in general should make sense within the world's own logic, and the ME team has failed so hard in that that the problem crosses over to MEA even though it's a different place in the same universe. Also, for the purposes of this thread, the point is that things generally do make sense in TW3, and it doesn't have that kind of canonical protagonist stupidity (it is canonical if you can't opt out of it). That makes TW3 storytelling and its protagonist significantly superior in my opinion. If you want a Bioware game that does a few things better than TW3, look to DAI. Regions have stronger identities. More variable protagonist expression with no canonical stupidity (well, almost none). More variable relationships between protagonist and some major NPCs. Well, that's about it, honestly, and the comparable lack of the latter two in TW3 is by design. Even so, with more efficiency and probably a bigger budget, DAI could've been like TW3 in most things TW3 does best, while still retaining Bioware's formula. The one exception is plot design. Bioware really isn't very good at this. They never made anything like the interwoven plot lines in Novigrad.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jan 14, 2017 4:38:49 GMT
The only thing I can say is I could never get into the Witcher series. Bought and tried the first, abandoned after a few hours; I didn't like the gameplay nor did I like the chars. I didn't buy the second nor the third though I watched cutscenes (YT) and gameplay on Twitch. Still can't get into it. *shrug*
I guess it boils down to personal preference and taste regards RPGs. On MET and DA. I like both. DA has a bigger edge over MET though.
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Post by masterwarderz on Jan 14, 2017 20:29:20 GMT
The aftermath of Thessia is probably the worst written part of the Mass Effect trilogy. Plus, for me personally that also happened at the worst possible moment - when I was still furious from the so obviously forced incompetence at Thessia. And then I found that "neener-neener" email from Kai Leng... I will never forgive them for butchering that character.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 17, 2017 13:29:04 GMT
The ex-lead writer of Dragon Age who left BioWare a year ago is now replaying Witcher 3 making it past the early points in the game he didn't make it past before. He's tweeting about his time with the game and it seems like this is the first time it truly sinks in how impressive he finds it.
The latter tweet tells me that a game the size of Witcher 3 has been ruled out in terms of production cost over at EA/BioWare. Gaider would not react this way if he didn't feel DA:I was on a lesser scale when it comes to budget and production.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2017 13:44:04 GMT
I don't care what Gaider thinks.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 17, 2017 14:14:58 GMT
I don't care what Gaider thinks. Who is the negative nelly now huh.
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Post by Max Deltree on Jan 17, 2017 14:28:21 GMT
The latter tweet tells me that a game the size of Witcher 3 has been ruled out in terms of production cost over at EA/BioWare. Gaider would not react this way if he didn't feel DA:I was on a lesser scale when it comes to budget and production. If Dragon Age was the size of Witcher 3, it would be expensive as Hell. You have to factor production costs by location, after all. And it seems it's a lot less expensive in Poland.
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Post by phoray on Jan 17, 2017 14:29:29 GMT
The content I care about is the relationships/friendships I can have with my either-gender one-of-four-races protagonist.
Nobody but Bioware offers that. I don't need no battlefield simulator.
Edit add: This was from a thread that was merged to this one, and a direct response to Gaider implying TW3 is better than Dragon Age.
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Post by Raga on Jan 17, 2017 14:49:07 GMT
So I just resolved I'm going to play the Witcher series before MEA comes out as I just finished replaying the ME trilogy and I have just enough time to beat the the Witcher trilogy. I'm about 30 hours into game 1 and am enjoying it sufficiently that I will likely keep playing. However, the game has 1 notable problem that is becoming increasingly irritating the longer I play it and might succeed in making me give up yet. That is that most quests are dependent on time of day and that the only way to pass time is at an inn or campfire. Holy hell, I can believe this game is 80 hours long, but a solid 20 hours of that are just spent running back and forth to the inn or assorted campfires. No thanks.
Do the sequels fix this or do I still have to run all the way back across town just to make the clock progress 3 hours?
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Agent 46
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 17, 2017 15:08:55 GMT
So I just resolved I'm going to play the Witcher series before MEA comes out as I just finished replaying the ME trilogy and I have just enough time to beat the the Witcher trilogy. I'm about 30 hours into game 1 and am enjoying it sufficiently that I will likely keep playing. However, the game has 1 notable problem that is becoming increasingly irritating the longer I play it and might succeed in making me give up yet. That is that most quests are dependent on time of day and that the only way to pass time is at an inn or campfire. Holy hell, I can believe this game is 80 hours long, but a solid 20 hours of that are just spent running back and forth to the inn or assorted campfires. No thanks. Do the sequels fix this or do I still have to run all the way back across town just to make the clock progress 3 hours? The sequels no longer require a campfire to meditate, so you can advance the time of day at pretty much any sufficiently peaceful spot out there.
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Raga
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Raga on Jan 17, 2017 15:13:54 GMT
Okay, thanks. That makes it significantly more likely I will stick it out because as I say I am otherwise enjoying the game. But I don't know if I can do 3 games worth of that.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 17, 2017 15:42:02 GMT
I just finished my replay of TW2 last night, and I was able to follow all the different agendas and schemes in the mix a little more than I could the first time around, though I'm still not sure I quite got all of it. If I understand correctly, Nilfgaard instructed Letho to kill as many northern kings and generally cause as much chaos as possible to soften the north for an invasion, the Lodge of Sorceresses wanted Demavend dead because they didn't think he was up to the job, and Iorveth figured that dead kings represented an opportunity for the Scoi'atael? But were Philippa and Sile 100% on the same page? And did Triss really have any idea what was going on?
I did Iorveth's path, so I'm going to try and watch some of the cutscenes from Roche's path on YouTube and see if I can pick up any more details.
Anyway...one thing I'll say in ME's favor is that at least I never felt too confused by all the politics. Maybe that came at the cost of some overly obvious exposition at times, but in the Witcher games, I do feel like I might be missing something from not having read the books (or maybe just not paying enough attention to the Codex). Emhyr, for example, is a key character even though he isn't seen until TW3, but he's mentioned several times in TW2, and I doubt that the name meant much to me the first time I played the game.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Jan 17, 2017 17:03:33 GMT
I'm glad David Gaider played a fun game that he enjoyed and he got pleasure from the little details!
The extra details really make a game (that stupid flower crown though -- it's made me completely paranoid about what else I might be missing).
You can enjoy more than one game. And if you like one thing, that doesn't necessarily cast shade on another thing you also like.
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