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Post by Kian on Jan 10, 2017 13:50:37 GMT
The annoyance of AI entering melee in DAI is not actually an AI bug as much as the fact that AI aren't programmed to run in an arc to both remain in range and hit the target when it LOS's them. It was simple to manage as it's predictable, except when it was "invisible" terrain. Anyway the less abilities the AI has to work with the more refined it can be. ME has never had a lot of character abilities so they were always more reliable than those in DA. If we cannot issue direct commands to the AI, it is natural to expect them to be programmed to react appropriately for combos. I sincerely doubt otherwise, considering this has already been done in ME3. Very much this. In DAO I could use the tactics to design very intricate behaviours for party members, but I always ended up disabling it since I enjoyed micro managing everyone for optimal results That was lost in DAI where the glitches and bugs made the companions behaviour unreliable and the lack of tactics made it crappy lol. So I ended up disabling like 90% of their abilities and let them have 1-3 only to be sure I get a mildly effective response from them (for example, Dorian only had barrier, walking bomb and spirit whatever... maybe the multi-projectile one too - forgot the name - and nothing else; same for warriors and even more so for archers who were the dumbest acting of all lol)
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Post by Iakus on Jan 10, 2017 14:09:19 GMT
The annoyance of AI entering melee in DAI is not actually an AI bug as much as the fact that AI aren't programmed to run in an arc to both remain in range and hit the target when it LOS's them. It was simple to manage as it's predictable, except when it was "invisible" terrain. Anyway the less abilities the AI has to work with the more refined it can be. ME has never had a lot of character abilities so they were always more reliable than those in DA. If we cannot issue direct commands to the AI, it is natural to expect them to be programmed to react appropriately for combos. I sincerely doubt otherwise, considering this has already been done in ME3. Very much this. In DAO I could use the tactics to design very intricate behaviours for party members, but I always ended up disabling it since I enjoyed micro managing everyone for optimal results That was lost in DAI where the glitches and bugs made the companions behaviour unreliable and the lack of tactics made it crappy lol. So I ended up disabling like 90% of their abilities and let them have 1-3 only to be sure I get a mildly effective response from them (for example, Dorian only had barrier, walking bomb and spirit whatever... maybe the multi-projectile one too - forgot the name - and nothing else; same for warriors and even more so for archers who were the dumbest acting of all lol) Then let the companions only have three active powers, and let the player have the full spread. I AM FRAKKING REFINED, DAMMIT! *belch*
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Post by 10k on Jan 10, 2017 14:32:09 GMT
Did you play Inquisition? It had the worst AI in any EAware game I've played. Varric makes an awful tank BTW lol. But yeah, stupid AI will remain stupid.
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Bacus
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Post by Bacus on Jan 10, 2017 15:23:36 GMT
I believe that companions will never surpass the team of Republic Commando. More than once my buds kill the boss while I lay bleeding on the floor.
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Raga
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Raga on Jan 10, 2017 17:39:28 GMT
If the difficulty level is comparable to the other games, I don't really care too much if the AI is terrible because I don't need companions for the most part. The one thing I hope they are better at in this game is rudimentary trash crowd control. I was in the Collector Ship in ME2 last night at the part where a Praetorian shows up. It is accompanied by like 2 husks and a couple of standard collectors. I died twice in a row because I made the mistake of thinking "okay, I can focus on this Praetorian and surely my squad members can handle 2 husks and 2 collectors." No, no, they can't. They somehow managed to let a husk and both collectors pass both of them and get behind me. Had to manually tell them to mop up the trash with abilities. All I ask is that the AI is not so dumb that it can't handle 2 husks and 2 collectors on its own.
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degs29
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Post by degs29 on Jan 10, 2017 18:56:47 GMT
AI is probably the least advanced part of video games today. Not that I don't sympathize with the difficulties of programming a great AI. Just no one has really got it right. idk, the enemy AI in XCOM2 was pretty brutal on the hardest mode. Brutal, but still not entirely bright. You can't equate difficulty with intelligence. For example, look at how the Civilization series "improves" its AI. Not by creating a smarter AI, but instead by allowing the AI to cheat by giving them bonuses. While not as transparent, I imagine XCOM2 does the same thing. To be fair, if you're going to allow varying difficulties, then having to create an AI with different intelligence levels would be time consuming. Much easier to give out stat bonuses.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 10, 2017 19:29:15 GMT
If the difficulty level is comparable to the other games, I don't really care too much if the AI is terrible because I don't need companions for the most part. The one thing I hope they are better at in this game is rudimentary trash crowd control. I was in the Collector Ship in ME2 last night at the part where a Praetorian shows up. It is accompanied by like 2 husks and a couple of standard collectors. I died twice in a row because I made the mistake of thinking "okay, I can focus on this Praetorian and surely my squad members can handle 2 husks and 2 collectors." No, no, they can't. They somehow managed to let a husk and both collectors pass both of them and get behind me. Had to manually tell them to mop up the trash with abilities. All I ask is that the AI is not so dumb that it can't handle 2 husks and 2 collectors on its own. I use the cain for that part
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Raga
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Raga on Jan 10, 2017 19:46:20 GMT
I don't like the Cain because it's kind of overkill. I don't use the Widow either for that reason. The game just becomes boring it's so strong. There's no particular reason any given situation should require the Cain or the Widow.
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Raga
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Post by Raga on Jan 10, 2017 19:52:34 GMT
Also, for people having trouble with Varric, I'm assuming people are giving him stealth abilities, like *lots* of stealth abilities? This doesn't make the AI suddenly brilliant but it does make him much less of a pincushion. My SO was having issues with Varric getting pummeled a lot and I wasn't so much and the only notable difference was he wasn't really building Varric for stealth.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 10, 2017 21:23:29 GMT
Remember giving thane a sniper rifle and having him rush the enemy. Or silly things like that. It always drove me insane how they would charge forward when they had a hail of bullets coming at them. Who thinks this will be the case again? ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
If history is any indicator, Ryder's squad will behave like the Quizzy's and points to a good reason for Bio to edit out the squad behaviour from the video trailers. Besides there are no tactical advantages if you are caught in a wide open space. Your mates running around like a chicken with its head cut off is a good tactic as any.
Bio would be proud to show off the squad's superiority in combat, if they were controlled by a good AI algorithm (ie: remember DA:O and DA2?). Sadly the trailers simply show Ryder shooting and running and Vanguarding.
One thing I notice is the lack of a situational feedback about how effective your mates are in combat.
My bar is set low.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 10, 2017 21:24:45 GMT
Marketing wise, they said companions AI are more advanced this time, and that they are actually necessary/important to win fights. I do hope both are either Right or wrong, because if the AI isn't good again but the game is designed for squadmates to be determinant, we'll have troubles. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
DA:I marketing said a lot of things too.
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Post by vallixas on Jan 10, 2017 21:29:33 GMT
I have to replay Mass Effect 3 to refresh my memory a bit, but I do remember the AI being bad in Mass Effect 2. Companions would hop over obstacles right in front of gunfire. They were so suicidal. I used to hate Garrus in ME2 because he was notorious for it. "Garrus you have a sniper why are you moving towards targets like you have a shotgun". Omg.........Varric really is Garrus.
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Post by laudable11 on Jan 10, 2017 22:28:26 GMT
Apparently you can't even give them direct orders so they're probably even more useless this time around. I'm really disappointed about that. Not only are we limited to 3 active powers, but we can't "borrow" our squadmates' powers to set up combos. That doesn't leave us with many tactical options I don't care if you're casual or hardcore, everyone would love to control their squadmates powers. This is a dumb decision. Dumb.
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Post by General Mahad on Jan 10, 2017 23:11:44 GMT
Nah, the meat shields will serve their purpose while you take down the baddies.
I don't think we'll ever get competent squadmate AI for any game.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 23:16:01 GMT
Nah, the meat shields will serve their purpose while you take down the baddies. I don't think we'll ever get competent squadmate AI for any game. Future Soldier would like to have a word with you.
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Post by Saboru on Jan 10, 2017 23:30:46 GMT
If they can stay out of the AoE, not charge into melee while squishy and in possession of ranged attacks and not aggro half the map I'll be happy. If they could dish out some damage and do a bit of CC at the same time that would be a lovely bonus.
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Post by tiamariegamer on Jan 11, 2017 0:06:39 GMT
If Dragon Age Inquisiton is any indication, propbaly not. Range companions thought they were tanks lol. "Varric you have a crossbow for godsake move the hell back". Every time you'd move them they'd just move right back. Lol! I had a different problem but it also included Varric. We would get in a combat situation and Varric would just take off running! It was so frustrating because sometimes enemies would chase after him and there would just be this line of people running and fighting. Thankfully it only happened a few times. Looking back on it always makes me laugh though.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 11, 2017 0:32:07 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Taking DA:I and ME trilogy as examples, your companions will have their own specializations. Drak will act as a tank, while PeeBee is a Biotic with a pistol.
Take LIAM. In the DEC 1 video trailer at appx 3:17 (frame by frame view), you will notice him running towards the mech and then goes right through it.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Jan 11, 2017 0:48:18 GMT
I'm really disappointed about that. Not only are we limited to 3 active powers, but we can't "borrow" our squadmates' powers to set up combos. That doesn't leave us with many tactical options The gameplay videos we've seen so far have all been run-n-gun style. It seems they've never quite shaken that "push a button something awesome happens" mentality born from DA2. All flash and flourish. I remember seeing that one clip of someone sniping an enemy in the head and the entire body flying in the most ridiculous fashion. Subtlety must have been left-behind in TMW.If I wanted to nitpick, I'd say that the enemy shouldn't have moved almost at all, since the weapons in ME are extremely high-velocity railguns with tiny projectiles. The shot should have passed clean-through the target and had them promptly slump to the ground. I think it can be improved. I think (purely speculatively) that it won't in reality be much improved. I don't think its an area they are at all focused on. Bioware is only going to make it as good as it absolutely has to be to not have people rage-quit. Its pretty clear to me from their long back catalog that their formula doesn't rely on highly effective squaddies. They'd prefer to have the PC / main character be the center of attention so that the player feels powerful. (Games like DAO are the exception, with its voiceless protagonist and free control of all party members in combat. Mages always dominate that one...) They are focusing on the story and dialog with the companions, and they just need them to be in combat with you so you are more endeared to them. On that note, did you know that squadmates in ME3 (and presumably other ME games) have their damage output lowered by a significant amount compared to what the player's is? I hate that kind of thing. It makes them mostly useless. Halo: Reach, and to a lesser extent 5, was also frustrating since you had a team of supersoldiers with you who were artificially gimped by having lower rates of fire and less damage output. Supersoldiers We have dismissed that claim.PSA: If you manually give a target to squadmates in ME3, it'll up their damage... for some reason. So if you want your squad at full strength, you have to micromanage them by constantly assigning them targets... or set their damage to 100% at all times on the PC version If the difficulty level is comparable to the other games, I don't really care too much if the AI is terrible because I don't need companions for the most part. The one thing I hope they are better at in this game is rudimentary trash crowd control. I was in the Collector Ship in ME2 last night at the part where a Praetorian shows up. It is accompanied by like 2 husks and a couple of standard collectors. I died twice in a row because I made the mistake of thinking "okay, I can focus on this Praetorian and surely my squad members can handle 2 husks and 2 collectors." No, no, they can't. They somehow managed to let a husk and both collectors pass both of them and get behind me. Had to manually tell them to mop up the trash with abilities. All I ask is that the AI is not so dumb that it can't handle 2 husks and 2 collectors on its own. Generally, my approach in games is to take out the least-threatening/easiest-to-kill enemies first, because they can overwhelm you if left unchecked, while the more-threatening/harder-to-kill enemies are much easier to take on one-on-one. For instance, in Halo I'll quickly take out all the grunts, then go for the elite. I'm really disappointed about that. Not only are we limited to 3 active powers, but we can't "borrow" our squadmates' powers to set up combos. That doesn't leave us with many tactical options I don't care if you're casual or hardcore, everyone would love to control their squadmates powers. This is a dumb decision. Dumb. Exactly. Removing the option helps no one, while if they left it in, people could always choose to ignore it if they wished. Options are optional after all. It's just like removing tactics in Dragon Age. It doesn't affect people who didn't use them, but it's annoying for people who did. That's a net-loss. I don't get it
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swagmaster97
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Isn't Bioware just the greatest??
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by swagmaster97 on Jan 11, 2017 2:48:16 GMT
Squad AI will continue to do stupid things. I have no expectations that anyone will cement into place unless I specifically cement them into place behind some cover. if i recall Star Wars Republic Commando's Squad AI was very "smart" so maybe bioware should look into that too as a guideline I will always have the memory of myself, Scorch (same voice actor as Kaiden), and Green Guy all laying on the ground crying out for a medic while Sev (Badass Red Clone) ran back and fourth across my field of vision, fighting a rather large group of bug warriors for nearly three minutes... and somehow he managed to win! And then he revived us! Dragons Dogma also had interesting party ai. Your pawns would pick up items on their own, scout ahead for you, shout instructions to each other when fighting larger enemies, had different inclinations (some were team players, scouts, bodyguards, healers, etc...), and on one occasion when a Harpy carried me off to drop me to my death; my pawn jumped into the air and caught me (thus saving me a bit of back tracking). For soulless husks, the pawns were more autonomous than most other video game companions.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Jan 11, 2017 4:03:19 GMT
I believe that companions will never surpass the team of Republic Commando. More than once my buds kill the boss while I lay bleeding on the floor. Goddamn, I know. That was far and away the most useful team, even without rezzing you. That game blew my mind then... I've been afraid to go back to it in case it hasn't aged well.
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Addictress
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Post by Addictress on Jan 11, 2017 5:40:08 GMT
I LOVE TACTICS PRESETS
But Mass Effect never had any. I don't expect presets.
I really hope they bring them back though. I'm OCD and would spend a lot of time making sure my companions had intricate rules on how to behave to get through any battle, hands-free.
Bring presets back!!!!!!
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Post by Bacus on Jan 11, 2017 13:22:38 GMT
I believe that companions will never surpass the team of Republic Commando. More than once my buds kill the boss while I lay bleeding on the floor. Goddamn, I know. That was far and away the most useful team, even without rezzing you. That game blew my mind then... I've been afraid to go back to it in case it hasn't aged well. The only downside is the graphics, but mechanically the game is still outstanding. give it a shot
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GannayevOfDreams
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Jan 11, 2017 16:25:23 GMT
The gameplay videos we've seen so far have all been run-n-gun style. It seems they've never quite shaken that "push a button something awesome happens" mentality born from DA2. All flash and flourish. I remember seeing that one clip of someone sniping an enemy in the head and the entire body flying in the most ridiculous fashion. Subtlety must have been left-behind in TMW.If I wanted to nitpick, I'd say that the enemy shouldn't have moved almost at all, since the weapons in ME are extremely high-velocity railguns with tiny projectiles. The shot should have passed clean-through the target and had them promptly slump to the ground. Exactly. This game is created on the Frostbite 3 engine, which has been used primarily in FPS games. There is no reason it shouldn't support more realistic gun-based physics.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 11, 2017 22:11:01 GMT
If you can't control your squadmates powers what can you control? Are they totally independent? If that is the case why even have them?
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