Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 19:57:44 GMT
consider: the only privately held ship that had weapons in the OT that we saw was the SR2. A ship made by a terrorist organization. Consider: the citadel has made a treaty outlawing the development of drednaughts. The arks are massive ships, putting weapons on them would count as a dreadnaught. Consider: the turians enforced the other well known treaty, on a species they never met before, WITH WEAPONS FIRE. Consider even the mercenaries in the Terminus systems also did not run around in armed ships. Conclusion: if the AI armed itself it would have likely been declared an illegal PMC which would have caused the council to issue a deadly response. Conclusion: only an insane person would arm the AI. Consider: We are going into a completely unknown region with at least 80.000 people to start a new life there (OUT of the COUNCIL JURISDICTION), there won't be any Council to defend us in case something goes wrong, so their rules don't apply anymore. We need means to defend ourselves. Even the briefings mention that the Arks, or at least the Nexus would be defended by fighters (IIRC) Only an insane person would not arm the AI. I only recall them being defended by fighter escort as they leave the Milky Way Because clearly there are no threats outside the galaxy
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 20:00:39 GMT
consider: the only privately held ship that had weapons in the OT that we saw was the SR2. A ship made by a terrorist organization. Consider: the citadel has made a treaty outlawing the development of drednaughts. The arks are massive ships, putting weapons on them would count as a dreadnaught. Consider: the turians enforced the other well known treaty, on a species they never met before, WITH WEAPONS FIRE. Consider even the mercenaries in the Terminus systems also did not run around in armed ships. Conclusion: if the AI armed itself it would have likely been declared an illegal PMC which would have caused the council to issue a deadly response. Conclusion: only an insane person would arm the AI. No, there are other privately-owned ships we encounter that have had weaponry. Not a main cannon, but smaller guns to defend themselves. The Arks would only be considered a dreadnought if equipped with a large central rail cannon once it reaches a certain size. Having GUARDIAN lasers wouldn't classify them as such. The Terminus Systems ships are armed to the teeth. We see this. No, only if they armed them with a large central cannon would they be even close to breaking the Treaty of Farixen. Having smaller armament that can still defend the ships wouldn't be seen as an issue and would be seen as smart since they know how dangerous the universe is. Conclusion: Only an insane person would send tens of thousands of people to a new galaxy with no means to defend themselves other than small arms. Don't forget the Migrant Fleet, which are all former civilian ships refitted for combat. Heck, their liveships had DREADNOUGHT sized armaments on them.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jan 15, 2017 20:02:09 GMT
No, there are other privately-owned ships we encounter that have had weaponry. Not a main cannon, but smaller guns to defend themselves. The Arks would only be considered a dreadnought if equipped with a large central rail cannon once it reaches a certain size. Having GUARDIAN lasers wouldn't classify them as such. The Terminus Systems ships are armed to the teeth. We see this. No, only if they armed them with a large central cannon would they be even close to breaking the Treaty of Farixen. Having smaller armament that can still defend the ships wouldn't be seen as an issue and would be seen as smart since they know how dangerous the universe is. Conclusion: Only an insane person would send tens of thousands of people to a new galaxy with no means to defend themselves other than small arms. Don't forget the Migrant Fleet, which are all former civilian ships refitted for combat. Heck, their liveships had DREADNOUGHT sized armaments on them. Pretty sure they covered in the game that that was illegal.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 20:05:36 GMT
Don't forget the Migrant Fleet, which are all former civilian ships refitted for combat. Heck, their liveships had DREADNOUGHT sized armaments on them. Pretty sure they covered in the game that that was illegal. Legally dodgy at best, true. But it was still done. And in Andromeda, who's gonna go crying to the Council?
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Jan 15, 2017 20:11:32 GMT
Yes. Normandy was a Alliance frigate while Tempest is a civilian scout ship. And that changes things how? Normandy is a fast stealth-recon frigate-sized ship, and she's armed. Which means that fast and stealthy ships can be armed. Tempest is about the same in size. They are going into complete unknown. Who would suggest that it's a good idea to skip the weapons? How is scouting Andromeda any less dangerous than scouting MW? They can't add any support or protection for the unarmed Nomad and/or troops. What are they going to do if there's a local version of Thrasher Maw nearby? Fly away asap? Yeah, the Tempest will fly away... leaving the squad to get mauled by the Thresher analogue Speed may be a defense for the ship itself, but it doesn't help anyone not on the ship. When half the time you have personnel in situations where being walking armouries is deemed appropriate, you'd think a little close air support would be a nice option to have... especially since their rover has no weapons either. And that changes things how? Normandy is a fast stealth-recon frigate-sized ship, and she's armed. Which means that fast and stealthy ships can be armed. T empest is about the same in size. They are going into complete unknown. Who would suggest that it's a good idea to skip the weapons? How is scouting Andromeda any less dangerous than scouting MW? They can't add any support or protection for the unarmed Nomad and/or troops.What are they going to do if there's a local version of Thrasher Maw nearby? Fly away asap? Nope. The tempest is not a frigate. It's a long range scout ship: like Hawker Siddeley Harrier VS Sr71 in RL. Different roles. Credit to Euderion on deviantart for the pic 1. That is fan-made, so I'll take it with a grain of salt. 2. As others have pointed out, it's still a small scout/stealth ship, same as the Normandy SR-1, and it had a full array of weapons. The Tempest doesn't have a main gun? Fine, I can see that. But nothing at all? They're out of their minds No torpedoes, or light weapons for defending the ship while it's on the ground waiting for the Pathfinder team to return? Not even GARDIAN lasers, which are 100% defensive and are so small they're not even visible on the outside of ships? There are also plenty of situations where you'd want weapons that don't involve wanton violence. I want to like this game, really. But this stuff makes me facepalm so much it's making that difficult. 3. The size of the Tempest is making me wonder, again, if the interior will be larger than the frame would allow. I believe the SR-2 had that problem. Not that it matters much since they mentioned already the Pathfinder has military skills, and at least the siblings had military training as well, but technically, Ryder and squadmates operate after arriving in andromeda, and knowing the situation isn't as peaceful as the Initiative seemed to think. As I said in another thread, it seems they want to make the Initiative intentionally dumb and pacifist. At this point I wouldn't ever bet on the presence of other ships with weapons. As I said in another thread. If I was invited by the Jein woman to go to Andromeda, my question to her is what weapons and defenses would these ships have and what weapons would the car have? She will give me a funny look. But it's a question I would ask. I guess its the military in me that would ask. That is one of the reasons why I would never go to Andromeda. Well it's good that you would ask that. I probably wouldn't even think to ask about it since I would think having some defenses on our vehicles would be such a an obvious idea that I wouldn't need to bring it up at all! And promptly die in Andromeda because of it consider: the only privately held ship that had weapons in the OT that we saw was the SR2. A ship made by a terrorist organization. Consider: the citadel has made a treaty outlawing the development of drednaughts. The arks are massive ships, putting weapons on them would count as a dreadnaught. Consider: the turians enforced the other well known treaty, on a species they never met before, WITH WEAPONS FIRE. Consider even the mercenaries in the Terminus systems also did not run around in armed ships. Conclusion: if the AI armed itself it would have likely been declared an illegal PMC which would have caused the council to issue a deadly response. Conclusion: only an insane person would arm the AI. I'd argue that the Council would make an exception for the Initiative both on account of the fact that they're planning to leave the freaking galaxy and therefore the Council's jurisdiction, and also because not letting them would be effectively dooming 100000 people. The Tempest has no way ton defend the crew on the ground or allies/innocents who need help though. All it can do is run and hide like a coward. That's my issue. The Tempest has a very specific purpose. The AI may have other ships equipped for military use. Also: if the Tempest needed armaments for anything that actually occurs in the story, it would have them. 1. There may, but at this point I'm seriously doubting it. We've seen no evidence of Initiative warships, or even any other craft besides Pathfinder scoutships. I hope so, though. 2. That's a terrible excuse, because it's a meta one. It's like saying Peebee's outfit is fine because she won't end up killed. It's just as illogical. I'm pretty sure people are arguing that the Initiative being so poorly armed is incredibly stupid in-universe, so no amount of plot armour will excuse it in that sense. Even if the Tempest never needs to use armaments in the story, why not just say it has some? There, now it makes sense and doesn't change their story. Easy. On a meta level, this also disappoints me slightly because I was looking forward to seeing some more space battles, including some involving our own crew. Clearly, that isn't going to happen And other space battles may not even happen if the Nexus/Arks are not armed either and there are no Initiative warships. Do the Kett only have small arms as well?
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2017 20:12:52 GMT
I only recall them being defended by fighter escort as they leave the Milky Way Because clearly there are no threats outside the galaxy If the Nexus and/or the ships have hangars for fighters, they can be deployed, once they enter Andromeda, to defend those ships and Nexus. Of course that depends on how large a force they will encounter and how many fighters they have to protect. If there is no immediate threat when first arriving, they can send out a few fighters to scan the area to see if there's any hostiles to worry about. If none, they can park the Nexus and setup shop.
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Post by veky359 on Jan 15, 2017 20:14:51 GMT
If this rumor is true this nonsense and very unlogical decision of Bioware. Reasons for this my option is numerous:1. Andromeda Initiative is founded in case that Cmdr. Shepard don't stop reapers in its mission to wipe Human civilization and Milky way galaxy from life. With taking about 100.000 Humans and other ME Spices to Andromeda. (don't know exactly number) 2. It is started in period of ME 2 & 3 while our galaxy been in war. 3. From our history we can see that in time of war civilian ships usually become armed even to the teeth. Look merchants transport ships in WW2 at begin of war it been unarmed and easy pray for German subs but after war going on it get good defense weaponry that subs cannot engage it on surface with its main gun because it become suicide mission for German U-Boats... 4. In time of total war even civilian factories and shipyards become part of military so weapon mount is allowed there is no time for regular law which denied it (we also had numerous examples in WW2) 4. First Explorer ships to the new word also carry guns for defense. 5. Is very stupid to send ark with last hope of mankind into unexplored Galaxy together with unarmed escorts. 6. On end if Nomad & Tempest don't need weapons why its crew is armed to the teeth with small weapons?!!! I really hope that this is not true. Also I would like if we can made R&D of weapons and technologies in which we enoucerd in Andromeda that we can made customization of Tempest with it then...p.s. even Oberth science starship have phrases and at least one photon torpedo launcher sto.gamepedia.com/Oberth_Class_Light_Science_Vessel
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 20:18:05 GMT
Nope. The tempest is not a frigate. It's a long range scout ship: like Hawker Siddeley Harrier VS Sr71 in RL. Different roles. Credit to Euderion on deviantart for the pic Ignoring the thrusters and comparing only the fuselage, they are about the same size actually. Correct me if I'm wrong, but The Tempest should have only one bridge + cargo hold (probably), while the Normandy Sr1 had 2 bridges + cargo and SR2 had 4 + cargo. It's a lot more inertial moment to manage. Again, it’s not that I’m defending the lack of weapons on both Tempest and Normad, I’m just trying to organize what information do we have in a logical pattern. Trying to, being the key. IF the Tempest should perform a role similar to long range scouting missions and intelligence gathering (like the decommissioned SR71 in real life) I could even understand why the AI wouldn’t bother to put a gun on it. Basically, we would play as spies in ME:A for the whole initiative. OF course, this would only have sense IF both the Apex forces (multiplayer) would act as the grunts of the Andromeda Initiative (basically the Shepards of ME:A) AND the Arks and the Nexus are armed to the teeth, eyeballs and gums. The lack of weapons on the NOMAD is just plain silly though, I agree.
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jan 15, 2017 20:18:15 GMT
Maybe they have recordings of Shepard that they play to scare enemies away.
Or the Shepard VI.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 15, 2017 20:22:28 GMT
Personally i can't see any logic that convinces me that a pleasure yacht is the best choice for the very specific purpose of exploring a new galaxy. The Tempest, outside the Pathfinder cabin, it's not luxorious. It's high-tech, but not luxurious.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 15, 2017 20:23:20 GMT
Maybe they have recordings of Shepard that they play to scare enemies away. Or the Shepard VI. Our enemies don't know who Shepard was though.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 20:23:32 GMT
Maybe they have recordings of Shepard dancing that they play to scare enemies away. Or the Shepard VI. FFTT
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 20:26:53 GMT
Ignoring the thrusters and comparing only the fuselage, they are about the same size actually. Correct me if I'm wrong, but The Tempest should have only one bridge + cargo hold (probably), while the Normandy Sr1 had 2 bridges + cargo and SR2 had 4 + cargo. It's a lot more inertial moment to manage. Again, it’s not that I’m defending the lack of weapons on both Tempest and Normad, I’m just trying to organize what information do we have in a logical pattern. Trying to, being the key. IF the Tempest should perform a role similar to long range scouting missions and intelligence gathering (like the decommissioned SR71 in real life) I could even understand why the AI wouldn’t bother to put a gun on it. Basically, we would play as spies in ME:A for the whole initiative. OF course, this would only have sense IF both the Apex forces (multiplayer) would act as the grunts of the Andromeda Initiative (basically the Shepards of ME:A) AND the Arks and the Nexus are armed to the teeth, eyeballs and gums. The lack of weapons on the NOMAD is just plain silly though, I agree. By bridges, do you mean floors? Just asking since both Normandys only had one bridge. If you do mean floors, no both the Tempest and Normandy SR1 have two floors and a cargo hold. The Normandy SR1 was originally designed with that exact same role in mind, and yet it was still armed in the event of being discovered or if it discovered something time sensitive and had to act before other ships could arrive. And I may understand the decision if like the SR71 the Tempest was never planned to drop ground forces and only be a spy spacecraft, but the moment it goes beyond that by having a team that goes down it is no longer just that and thus should be equipped appropriately.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 15, 2017 20:27:50 GMT
I feel like I should apologize for arguing Andromeda might make sense in the past. It could've made sense. But SuperMac strikes again.
Now, the question is, is this "art"? Because logic, reason and basic common sense went out the fucking airlock.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 20:29:06 GMT
The Tempest has no way ton defend the crew on the ground or allies/innocents who need help though. All it can do is run and hide like a coward. That's my issue. Actually - a well-armed shuttle or gunship would be ideal for that purpose - though it doesn't look like we have either. OTOH, maybe SAM is capable of showing up as a super-powerful combat drone or somesuch. Heh. The Tempest has a very specific purpose. The AI may have other ships equipped for military use. Also: if the Tempest needed armaments for anything that actually occurs in the story, it would have them. 1. There may, but at this point I'm seriously doubting it. We've seen no evidence of Initiative warships, or even any other craft besides Pathfinder scoutships. I hope so, though. 2. That's a terrible excuse, because it's a meta one. It's like saying Peebee's outfit is fine because she won't end up killed. It's just as illogical. I'm pretty sure people are arguing that the Initiative being so poorly armed is incredibly stupid in-universe, so no amount of plot armour will excuse it in that sense. Even if the Tempest never needs to use armaments in the story, why not just say it has some? There, now it makes sense and doesn't change their story. Easy. It's completely logical in the real world of game development. It isn't unusual for them to forego things you won't actually need in the game world. I don't remember the SR1 having bathrooms, for example. But it would have been easier if they just hadn't mentioned it. That way people could assume it is equipped in whatever way works best for them.
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jan 15, 2017 20:32:44 GMT
I feel like I should apologize for arguing Andromeda might make sense in the past. It could've made sense. But SuperMac strikes again. Now, the question is, is this "art"? Because logic, reason and basic common sense went out the fucking airlock. ARTISTIC INTEGRITY R T I S T I C I N T E G R I T Y
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 15, 2017 20:34:21 GMT
I feel like I should apologize for arguing Andromeda might make sense in the past. It could've made sense. But SuperMac strikes again. Now, the question is, is this "art"? Because logic, reason and basic common sense went out the fucking airlock. It might make sense if the make the initiative intentionally dumb or clueless. From what we know of the plot, it's a good possibility. I honestly don't get for what reason they should've left the ship without any weapons, otherwise. While I don't like this decision, why does it have to be related to Walters? There are other leads in the project who could've taken it. Not everything wrong with Mass Effect is his fault.
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 20:36:35 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but The Tempest should have only one bridge + cargo hold (probably), while the Normandy Sr1 had 2 bridges + cargo and SR2 had 4 + cargo. It's a lot more inertial moment to manage. Again, it’s not that I’m defending the lack of weapons on both Tempest and Normad, I’m just trying to organize what information do we have in a logical pattern. Trying to, being the key. IF the Tempest should perform a role similar to long range scouting missions and intelligence gathering (like the decommissioned SR71 in real life) I could even understand why the AI wouldn’t bother to put a gun on it. Basically, we would play as spies in ME:A for the whole initiative. OF course, this would only have sense IF both the Apex forces (multiplayer) would act as the grunts of the Andromeda Initiative (basically the Shepards of ME:A) AND the Arks and the Nexus are armed to the teeth, eyeballs and gums. The lack of weapons on the NOMAD is just plain silly though, I agree. By bridges, do you mean floors? Just asking since both Normandys only had one bridge. If you do mean floors, no both the Tempest and Normandy SR1 have two floors and a cargo hold. The Normandy SR1 was originally designed with that exact same role in mind, and yet it was still armed in the event of being discovered or if it discovered something time sensitive and had to act before other ships could arrive. And I may understand the decision if like the SR71 the Tempest was never planned to drop ground forces and only be a spy spacecraft, but the moment it goes beyond that by having a team that goes down it is no longer just that and thus should be equipped appropriately. Yep, sorry, I meant floors. May I ask the source for the number of floors on the Tempest though? The Tempest video shows one main bridge + cargo bay, that gives space too for medbay, armoury, infirmary and engine core room too (like the SR1 had cargo and engineering on the same floor). So, at least from the video, the Tempest would seem to have one floor less than the Normandy SR1, if I didn’t miss anything…
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 20:36:43 GMT
By bridges, do you mean floors? Just asking since both Normandys only had one bridge. If you do mean floors, no both the Tempest and Normandy SR1 have two floors and a cargo hold. I believe the SR1 had 3 decks: bridge/navigation/communication, crew deck (galley, med bay, Shepard's cabin, etc.) with stairways between them. Then the lower deck (that required an elevator ride) had engineering, mako storage, requisitions, and most of the crew hung out there.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 20:38:42 GMT
I feel like I should apologize for arguing Andromeda might make sense in the past. It could've made sense. But SuperMac strikes again. Now, the question is, is this "art"? Because logic, reason and basic common sense went out the fucking airlock.
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Post by wright1978 on Jan 15, 2017 20:40:28 GMT
I'm genuinely intrigued and confused by what these alternate means of protecting people are they are suggesting.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2017 20:40:43 GMT
Maybe they have recordings of Shepard that they play to scare enemies away. Or the Shepard VI. Or showing the Shepard shuffle giving the enemy a good laugh that they can't be bothered to attack
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 20:42:05 GMT
By bridges, do you mean floors? Just asking since both Normandys only had one bridge. If you do mean floors, no both the Tempest and Normandy SR1 have two floors and a cargo hold. The Normandy SR1 was originally designed with that exact same role in mind, and yet it was still armed in the event of being discovered or if it discovered something time sensitive and had to act before other ships could arrive. And I may understand the decision if like the SR71 the Tempest was never planned to drop ground forces and only be a spy spacecraft, but the moment it goes beyond that by having a team that goes down it is no longer just that and thus should be equipped appropriately. Yep, sorry, I meant floors. May I ask the source for the number of floors on the Tempest though? The Tempest video shows one main bridge + cargo bay, that gives space too for medbay, armoury, infirmary and engine core room too (like the SR1 had cargo and engineering on the same floor). So, at least from the video, the Tempest would seem to have one floor less than the Normandy SR1, if I didn’t miss anything… The video of the Tempest and the description of it in one of the Gameinformer articles. The main part of the ship has two floors, and then the garage/cargo bay hangs below that as a third floor.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 15, 2017 20:42:36 GMT
It might make sense if the make the initiative intentionally dumb or clueless. From what we know of the plot, it's a good possibility. I honestly don't get for what reason they should've left the ship without any weapons, otherwise. While I don't like this decision, why does it have to be related to Walters? There are other leads in the project who could've taken it. Not everything wrong with Mass Effect is his fault. What do you mean other leads? Is he not Project Lead, in charge overall? Whether it was his idea or whether he merely signed off on it is irrelevant. That's twice now (at least) that he's either made or signed off on a decision that was so monumentally stupid that I wonder how he functions as a writer at all. Unless he's trolling us. If they're pushing this "yay exploration!" thing so hard as a sort of in-character viral marketing, like when movies set up fake sites for the characters and stuff, and when we actually play the thing the hidden objective is finally revealed, then color me impressed. But somehow I find that hard to count on. It sounds suspiciously like IT. "No really, guys, the hidden meaning is sooo deep, just wait."
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 20:43:04 GMT
I'm genuinely intrigued and confused by what these alternate means of protecting people are they are suggesting.
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