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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 20:45:49 GMT
Yep, sorry, I meant floors. May I ask the source for the number of floors on the Tempest though? The Tempest video shows one main bridge + cargo bay, that gives space too for medbay, armoury, infirmary and engine core room too (like the SR1 had cargo and engineering on the same floor). So, at least from the video, the Tempest would seem to have one floor less than the Normandy SR1, if I didn’t miss anything… The video of the Tempest and the description of it in one of the Gameinformer articles. The main part of the ship has two floors, and then the garage/cargo bay hangs below that as a third floor. Thank you for the answer. Once again, logic has been drowned in its infancy. ...Maybe the Tempest is made of lighter alloys than the Normandy? Combined with the lack of standard ablative armour... Yeah, I know, grasping at straws here.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 15, 2017 20:48:21 GMT
It might make sense if the make the initiative intentionally dumb or clueless. From what we know of the plot, it's a good possibility. I honestly don't get for what reason they should've left the ship without any weapons, otherwise. While I don't like this decision, why does it have to be related to Walters? There are other leads in the project who could've taken it. Not everything wrong with Mass Effect is his fault. What do you mean other leads? Is he not Project Lead, in charge overall? Whether it was his idea or whether he merely signed off on it is irrelevant. That's twice now (at least) that he's either made or signed off on a decision that was so monumentally stupid that I wonder how he functions as a writer at all. Unless he's trolling us. If they're pushing this "yay exploration!" thing so hard as a sort of in-character viral marketing, like when movies set up fake sites for the characters and stuff, and when we actually play the thing the hidden objective is finally revealed, then color me impressed. But somehow I find that hard to count on. It sounds suspiciously like IT. "No really, guys, the hidden meaning is sooo deep, just wait." The focus is exploration is real, I think. What I think is, however, that the Initiative is a mixture of propaganda and possible a not efficient organization, that lead to problems as we reach Andromeda. We do already know some of this is true since the situation is far different then expected and there are quite a number of dissidents that left the station, possibly because of the false promises made. The Tempest being weaponless, as well as possible most/the whole project might be related to the problems with the Initiative. The only other explanation I can come up with is that they thought of building up warships as they reach Andromeda. I guess I'll wait and see until they reveal more to know what is really going on.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 20:49:02 GMT
I'm genuinely intrigued and confused by what these alternate means of protecting people are they are suggesting. They're gonna chase the teddy bears into their cuddle bunkers, then tickle them out with machine-hugs and fun-throwers. They say the more soldiers you tickle, the easier it gets. Well, sir, it doesn't.
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spacebeetle
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 20:53:56 GMT
I'm genuinely intrigued and confused by what these alternate means of protecting people are they are suggesting. They're gonna chase the teddy bears into their cuddle bunkers, then tickle them out with machine-hugs and fun-throwers. They say the more soldiers you tickle, the easier it gets. Well, sir, it doesn't. Do I sense a little of Stellaris friendships?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 20:54:55 GMT
It might make sense if the make the initiative intentionally dumb or clueless. From what we know of the plot, it's a good possibility. I honestly don't get for what reason they should've left the ship without any weapons, otherwise. While I don't like this decision, why does it have to be related to Walters? There are other leads in the project who could've taken it. Not everything wrong with Mass Effect is his fault. What do you mean other leads? Is he not Project Lead, in charge overall? Whether it was his idea or whether he merely signed off on it is irrelevant. That's twice now (at least) that he's either made or signed off on a decision that was so monumentally stupid that I wonder how he functions as a writer at all. Unless he's trolling us. If they're pushing this "yay exploration!" thing so hard as a sort of in-character viral marketing, like when movies set up fake sites for the characters and stuff, and when we actually play the thing the hidden objective is finally revealed, then color me impressed. But somehow I find that hard to count on. It sounds suspiciously like IT. "No really, guys, the hidden meaning is sooo deep, just wait." That's it. Remember the gameplay video? "... But in Andromeda, resources are scarce..." "You need every resource at your disposal to survive..." - But we don't have weapons in the ship or the vehicle. "or the Nomad, which protects you from hazards and enemies..." - And it really doesn't have guns? What if I'm stuck in a cave in a hazardous planet, between a 30 feet monster and the exit? "In a dangerous, alien galaxy, desperate for resources, conflict is inevitable" - And we really don't come in prepared? Seriously?
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Post by Wulfram on Jan 15, 2017 20:56:22 GMT
You could make an argument that if you're potentially - indeed, probably - trespassing in other peoples territory, then having an unarmed starship is a way of showing good intentions.
If you've got guns, then the other guys have a pretty hood case that your "exploration" is more of an invasion. And if your ship uses those guns to fight, then you've got a good chance of starting a shooting war which the Andromeda Initiative would almost inevitably lose.
But I don't really buy that. Carrying some basic weaponry would make sense, though I can see keeping it very limited. And it would definitely be one of the first upgrades you'd make once you realised that the pathfinder was going to be facing a bunch of armed resistance.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 20:56:27 GMT
They're gonna chase the teddy bears into their cuddle bunkers, then tickle them out with machine-hugs and fun-throwers. They say the more soldiers you tickle, the easier it gets. Well, sir, it doesn't. Do I sense a little of Stellaris friendships? Reminds me of this:
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 15, 2017 20:56:37 GMT
It might make sense if the make the initiative intentionally dumb or clueless. From what we know of the plot, it's a good possibility. I honestly don't get for what reason they should've left the ship without any weapons, otherwise. That would be slightly better I guess, in terms of in-game logic, but I still don't see why. Were all the people in charge complete morons? Maybe. As I said in another post, we do know there are problems as we arrived in andromeda, more then the initiative expected, that lead to dissidents leaving the Nexus. I think the problems might be more related to the ineptitude of the leaders, and not just to the different situation we found in the new galaxy. I don't completely understand why they'd have went this route either. Maybe they want to make us comfortable of being in a Mass Effect game by having the leaders being clueless and inept.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 15, 2017 20:58:14 GMT
The focus is exploration is real, I think. What I think is, however, that the Initiative is a mixture of propaganda and possible a not efficient organization, that lead to problems as we reach Andromeda. We do already know some of this is true since the situation is far different then expected and there are quite a number of dissidents that left the station, possibly because of the false promises made. The Tempest being weaponless, as well as possible most/the whole project might be related to the problems with the Initiative. The only other explanation I can come up with is that they thought of building up warships as they reach Andromeda. I guess I'll wait and see until they reveal more to know what is really going on. See that doesn't fly. Literally. For months now I've argued against people who claimed that going to Andromeda with ME level tech was impossible. It is possible. But it requires a feat of engineering, finances, planning and training the likes of which would be unequaled in the entire galaxy. It can be plausible but for that to happen, every race in teh galaxy needs to be involved more or less, with everyone bringing their A game. I compared the Initiative to Outbound Flight from Star Wars. But from this perspective that doesn't work. Star Wars can be lazy and inefficient with their tech because they've had it for going on 5000 years and it's more or less stagnant. And even for them, Outbound Flight was a careful, planned project with every contingency they could think about planned for. The AI could've worked but it would've required the absolute best effort the galaxy could spare, especially since it wasn't even a truly unified galactic effort as it was done in secret. Instead they're treating it like El Cheapo's Discount Airlines decided "fuck it, let's go to another galaxy."
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 15, 2017 20:59:46 GMT
What do you mean other leads? Is he not Project Lead, in charge overall? Whether it was his idea or whether he merely signed off on it is irrelevant. That's twice now (at least) that he's either made or signed off on a decision that was so monumentally stupid that I wonder how he functions as a writer at all. Unless he's trolling us. If they're pushing this "yay exploration!" thing so hard as a sort of in-character viral marketing, like when movies set up fake sites for the characters and stuff, and when we actually play the thing the hidden objective is finally revealed, then color me impressed. But somehow I find that hard to count on. It sounds suspiciously like IT. "No really, guys, the hidden meaning is sooo deep, just wait." That's it. Remember the gameplay video? "... But in Andromeda, resources are scarce..." "You need every resource at your disposal to survive..." - But we don't have weapons in the ship or the vehicle. "or the Nomad, which protects you from hazards and enemies..." - And it really doesn't have guns? What if I'm stuck in a cave between a 30 feet monster and the exit? "In a dangerous, alien galaxy, desperate for resources, conflict is inevitable" - And we really don't come in prepared? Seriously? That's actually a plot point they hinted at. The initiative, as we saw in the briefings, told the volunteers the galaxy is rich of resources, and probably they didn't expect to have the troubles we're having now. The trailers hint at that the situation being far different then expected. So yeah, they lack of weapons might be an intentional, wrong choice they made. Or maybe they expected it'd be easy to build up warships as soon as they reach the galaxy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 20:59:49 GMT
That would be slightly better I guess, in terms of in-game logic, but I still don't see why. Were all the people in charge complete morons? Maybe. As I said in another post, we do know there are problems as we arrived in andromeda, more then the initiative expected, that lead to dissidents leaving the Nexus. I think the problems might be more related to the ineptitude of the leaders, and not just to the different situation we found in the new galaxy. I don't completely understand why they'd have went this route either. Maybe they want to make us comfortable of being in a Mass Effect game by having the leaders being clueless and inept. Yes, if our leaders in the expedition are intentionally morons, that sounds good to me. But then, what kind of people would embark on a journey like this? Even more moronic individuals. I mean, seriously? What kind of people do something never done before and expect everything to go smooth as silk? They planned this for at least 9 years, with a lot of people involved, even from the other species. Things WILL go wrong. You will find yourself in situations you hadn't planned for. Even the arrival of all the arks and the Nexus should not be expected. Even their FTL drives are prototypes. That means to me that if you are going to attempt something like this, you have to account for all these factors, prepare yourself the best way possible, and have your contingencies go through the roof.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 15, 2017 21:02:57 GMT
The focus is exploration is real, I think. What I think is, however, that the Initiative is a mixture of propaganda and possible a not efficient organization, that lead to problems as we reach Andromeda. We do already know some of this is true since the situation is far different then expected and there are quite a number of dissidents that left the station, possibly because of the false promises made. The Tempest being weaponless, as well as possible most/the whole project might be related to the problems with the Initiative. The only other explanation I can come up with is that they thought of building up warships as they reach Andromeda. I guess I'll wait and see until they reveal more to know what is really going on. See that doesn't fly. Literally. For months now I've argued against people who claimed that going to Andromeda with ME level tech was impossible. It is possible. But it requires a feat of engineering, finances, planning and training the likes of which would be unequaled in the entire galaxy. It can be plausible but for that to happen, every race in teh galaxy needs to be involved more or less, with everyone bringing their A game. I compared the Initiative to Outbound Flight from Star Wars. But from this perspective that doesn't work. Star Wars can be lazy and inefficient with their tech because they've had it for going on 5000 years and it's more or less stagnant. And even for them, Outbound Flight was a careful, planned project with every contingency they could think about planned for. The AI could've worked but it would've required the absolute best effort the galaxy could spare, especially since it wasn't even a truly unified galactic effort as it was done in secret. Instead they're treating it like El Cheapo's Discount Airlines decided it "fuck it, let's go to another galaxy." The situation is separate though. The fear to reach the galaxy is tremedous and requires vast resources and talent, as well as preparation. But we do know they made mistakes, because they didn't expect the problems we have as we reach Andromeda, as well as not being as resource heavy as expected. The lack of weapons might be another mistake. I'm not saying it makes completely sense, or that I like. It's just a vibe I get from the informations they released so far with the briefings and the little glimpses of the problems found in Andromeda.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 15, 2017 21:07:12 GMT
Maybe. As I said in another post, we do know there are problems as we arrived in andromeda, more then the initiative expected, that lead to dissidents leaving the Nexus. I think the problems might be more related to the ineptitude of the leaders, and not just to the different situation we found in the new galaxy. I don't completely understand why they'd have went this route either. Maybe they want to make us comfortable of being in a Mass Effect game by having the leaders being clueless and inept. Yes, if our leaders in the expedition are intentionally morons, that sounds good to me. But then, what kind of people would embark on a journey like this? Even more moronic individuals. Eh, there's a lot of propaganda in those briefings. The people were probably lied to, or manipulated. Maybe. As I said in another post, we do know there are problems as we arrived in andromeda, more then the initiative expected, that lead to dissidents leaving the Nexus. I think the problems might be more related to the ineptitude of the leaders, and not just to the different situation we found in the new galaxy. I don't completely understand why they'd have went this route either. Maybe they want to make us comfortable of being in a Mass Effect game by having the leaders being clueless and inept. See, my problem is that I find it more likely that BW will simply handwave these questions away, than craft a narrative that actually makes sense. Lying to the AI guys about the potential dangers of Andromeda is one thing, but sending these people with insufficient means is something that they would most likely notice and question. It's just something I though of based on the information we have of the situation before and after reaching Andromeda. You might be right as well, I'll wait to see how it turns out. Well, not the majority of population on the Arks and Nexus. It's not like they had access to all the information.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 15, 2017 21:07:28 GMT
IF the Tempest should perform a role similar to long range scouting missions and intelligence gathering (like the decommissioned SR71 in real life) I could even understand why the AI wouldn’t bother to put a gun on it. Basically, we would play as spies in ME:A for the whole initiative. Even today's reconnaissance / scout vehicles have mounted heavy weapon systems in case they get ambushed or involved in a firefight were small arms are not enough. Their primary role is to gather information and intelligence about the terrain, enemy troop movements etc. and support fighting troops when the crap hits the fan. Even though their primary use is not active combat military tacticians understand that even scout squads need some heavy weapon systems so they can defend themselves and retreat safely if something goes really wrong. May I present to you, the LAV25, which is officially called an amphibious reconnaissance vehicle. It features a turret with a 25mm cannon and a 7.62 machine gun. Thats enough to take care of lightly armored vehicles and decimate enemies hiding behind cover like brick walls. Keep their heads pinned down with cover fire from the cannon and de-ass the area.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 21:14:19 GMT
Do I sense a little of Stellaris friendships? Reminds me of this: It was actually Grandpa Simpson telling sanitized WWII stories to baby Maggie
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 21:18:41 GMT
IF the Tempest should perform a role similar to long range scouting missions and intelligence gathering (like the decommissioned SR71 in real life) I could even understand why the AI wouldn’t bother to put a gun on it. Basically, we would play as spies in ME:A for the whole initiative. Even today's reconnaissance / scout vehicles have mounted heavy weapon systems in case they get ambushed or involved in a firefight were small arms are not enough. Their primary role is to gather information and intelligence about the terrain, enemy troop movements etc. and support fighting troops when the crap hits the fan. Even though their primary use is not active combat military tacticians understand that even scout squads need some heavy weapon systems so they can defend themselves and retreat safely if something goes really wrong. May I present to you, the LAV25, which is officially called an amphibious reconnaissance vehicle. It features a turret with a 25mm cannon and a 7.62 machine gun. Thats enough to take care of lightly armored vehicles and decimate enemies hiding behind cover like brick walls. Keep their heads pinned down with cover fire from the cannon and de-ass the area. As I said in another post, the lack of weapons on the Nomad is just plain silly and I agree with the principles you described here. The lack of weapons on the Tempest could only be justified IF both Apex Forces and Ark+Nexus are armed to the fucking teeth, and only stretching suspension of disbelief quite much.
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Post by veky359 on Jan 15, 2017 21:19:33 GMT
IF the Tempest should perform a role similar to long range scouting missions and intelligence gathering (like the decommissioned SR71 in real life) I could even understand why the AI wouldn’t bother to put a gun on it. Basically, we would play as spies in ME:A for the whole initiative. Even today's reconnaissance / scout vehicles have mounted heavy weapon systems in case they get ambushed or involved in a firefight were small arms are not enough. Their primary role is to gather information and intelligence about the terrain, enemy troop movements etc. and support fighting troops when the crap hits the fan. Even though their primary use is not active combat military tacticians understand that even scout squads need some heavy weapon systems so they can defend themselves and retreat safely if something goes really wrong. May I present to you, the LAV25, which is officially called an amphibious reconnaissance vehicle. It features a turret with a 25mm cannon and a 7.62 machine gun. Thats enough to take care of lightly armored vehicles and decimate enemies hiding behind cover like brick walls. Keep their heads pinned down with cover fire from the cannon and de-ass the area. I agree, unarmed scouts is no sense especially when you going into unexplored territory and when your entire spices depend on your success. I give lot historically examples on page 4 of this topic... Strange design decision if news is true
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 15, 2017 21:19:54 GMT
The situation is separate though. The fear to reach the galaxy is tremedous and requires vast resources and talent, as well as preparation. But we do know they made mistakes, because they didn't expect the problems we have as we reach Andromeda, as well as not being as resource heavy as expected. The lack of weapons might be another mistake. You hit the nail on the head. Requires. Preparation. How do you go from that to "they made mistakes, it's ok". Not you personally, I'm talking about the writers. How do you "prepare" for something so ambitious and fraught with so much danger, where literally missing a decimal point in your calculations can lead to complete mission failure* and then forget something so basic as "hey what if there's hostiles in this strange new galaxy we have precious little intel on?" The more prepared you have to be for something, the more inexcusable it is when you forget something, especially something so vast and obvious. Say you need to go to the corner store. Requires almost zero planning. You step outside and suddenly realize "shit it's cold, I should've brought a jacket". On the one hand, duh, it's January. But meh, no big deal both from a planning perspective (going to the store doesn't require much thought) and from a fixing it perspective (you can just go back inside and get a coat). Now say you needed to build a spacecraft. So you plan and sketch and calculate and build. You launch your spacecraft, achieve orbit and then realize you forgot to account for radiation. Forget making sense, does that even seem possible? No, this is about as strong an indication as any that this idea is doomed. They could've had something great. But again, they failed. Personally what was starting to draw me back was seeing how they did it. How the ark worked, how they built it, how they accounted for the various factors, what it made it work etc. Then when you got to Andromeda, how they'd go about exploring, managing their resources etc. The tech of it all, the sci in sci fi. Instead it seems that not only will they gloss over that but they're actively making it impossible, illogical and flat out retarded. *Ever see the movie Sunshine? Things go tits up when they have to do a risky turn and the guy calculating the math of it forgets to account for a variable. Literally he makes a math mistake that results in everything going wrong. Now imagine the outfitters of that mission had forgotten to pack calculators. Everyone on set, actors, camera people, the fucking caterers should've just walked away right then and there if something like that had happened.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 21:20:10 GMT
I mean, seriously? What kind of people do something never done before and expect everything to go smooth as silk?
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 21:21:22 GMT
It was actually Grandpa Simpson telling sanitized WWII stories to baby Maggie Ah, that explains it. I stopped watching Simpsons years ago.
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Post by traks on Jan 15, 2017 21:27:04 GMT
Not sure what the fuzz is about. Presumably (we don't know the reason yet) we don't go to Andromeda to conquer that galaxy. We go there to search for habitable planets for Milky Way races - for whatever reason (I really would like to know ). The Tempest is also only one vessel of the Initiative, that doesn't mean that the Initiative doesn't take any armed ships to Andromeda for back-up. I'm pretty sure the first contact protocol is peaceful, because we are the ones that may need the Andromedians help knowing nothing about that galaxy and the ones who just want some new space to live in without "stealing" it from natives. So it might not be the best strategy to send a warship and armatures out there at the tip of the spear. Also we gotta remind, that this is a project stemming from visionary civilians, not from a military alliance of council races. The arks and the Nexus should obviously have weapons for self defense, but not every ship/vehicle send out from them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 21:38:09 GMT
See that doesn't fly. Literally. For months now I've argued against people who claimed that going to Andromeda with ME level tech was impossible. It is possible. But it requires a feat of engineering, finances, planning and training the likes of which would be unequaled in the entire galaxy. It can be plausible but for that to happen, every race in teh galaxy needs to be involved more or less, with everyone bringing their A game. I compared the Initiative to Outbound Flight from Star Wars. But from this perspective that doesn't work. Star Wars can be lazy and inefficient with their tech because they've had it for going on 5000 years and it's more or less stagnant. And even for them, Outbound Flight was a careful, planned project with every contingency they could think about planned for. The AI could've worked but it would've required the absolute best effort the galaxy could spare, especially since it wasn't even a truly unified galactic effort as it was done in secret. Instead they're treating it like El Cheapo's Discount Airlines decided it "fuck it, let's go to another galaxy." The situation is separate though. The fear to reach the galaxy is tremedous and requires vast resources and talent, as well as preparation. But we do know they made mistakes, because they didn't expect the problems we have as we reach Andromeda, as well as not being as resource heavy as expected. The lack of weapons might be another mistake. I'm not saying it makes completely sense, or that I like. It's just a vibe I get from the informations they released so far with the briefings and the little glimpses of the problems found in Andromeda. Exactly. I really think you're onto something about where Bioware may be taking their story line. I keep thinking about how one group of my ancestors were seriously lied to about what they might expect when coming to the New World and about how they brought with them crop seeds that were totally unsuited to the environment that they were dropped off in (Venezuela). How that colony failed completely within 2 years and how, destitute and starving, they were "saved" and brought to Canada by an individual with connections to the then head of the Canada Company. It's a big part of the history of Guelph, Ontario. I'm going to wait to see what Bioware's story actually is and what "plot device" this might be before I'm going to say that this is detracting from it.
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Post by ProbeAway on Jan 15, 2017 21:39:12 GMT
I'm more concerned about the lack of weapons on the Nomad than the Tempest. I can get my head around a lack of armaments on vessels in the human contingent of the AI. It was being developed near Earth so I can imagine the Alliance being pretty strict about what they could and couldn't do. And given how high tech the Tempest is it might be a difficult vessel to retrofit in Andromeda.
Besides, a waterbed is the only weapon my pleasure yacht Tempest needs.
Bow chick-a wow wow....
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 21:41:52 GMT
Not sure what the fuzz is about. Presumably (we don't know the reason yet) we don't go to Andromeda to conquer that galaxy. We go there to search for habitable planets for Milky Way races - for whatever reason (I really would like to know ). The Tempest is also only one vessel of the Initiative, that doesn't mean that the Initiative doesn't take any armed ships to Andromeda for back-up. I'm pretty sure the first contact protocol is peaceful, because we are the ones that may need the Andromedians help knowing nothing about that galaxy and the ones who just want some new space to live in without "stealing" it from natives. So it might not be the best strategy to send a warship and armatures out there at the tip of the spear. Also we gotta remind, that this is a project stemming from visionary civilians, not from a military alliance of council races. The arks and the Nexus should obviously have weapons for self defense, but not every ship/vehicle send out from them. Well, imo is not believable civilians could ever be that careless. And AI member are scientists and military or ex military (As the human pathfinder shows, being an N7). Also, keep in mind most of the time civilians are way more paranoid or trigger happy than soldier in dangerous situation: reason is, mainly, they lack the experience to correctly judge how dangerous is the situation they are in. So, AI being a defenceless collection of farm ships would have zero sense for a 2.5 million light years away trip. Peaceful first contact protocol? Sure. Peaceful intention? Also ok. Zero meanings to defend the entire initiative personnel and then some from at least a menace comparable in size and firepower with the Citadel fleet? No way…
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 21:44:45 GMT
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