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Post by General Mahad on Jan 22, 2017 23:05:10 GMT
No one is asking that the Tempest have guns that can punch a hole in a dreadnought, they are asking for reasonable self-defense armaments like for example the GARDIAN laser defense system.
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spacebeetle
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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 22, 2017 23:14:02 GMT
No one is asking that the Tempest have guns that can punch a hole in a dreadnought, they are asking for reasonable self-defense armaments like for example the GARDIAN laser defense system. I utterly and completely agree with this. And let's remind that it's not an unmotivated choice: many have provided reasons for why it should be so, especially in the Nomad case. Seriously, even if the Tempest and the Nomad were weapon less in the Milky Way, there are zero reasons for why we should be forced to fly around with no means to defend ourselves in Andromeda, especially after the less than friendly welcoming from the Kett. We have the resources to complete the Nexus, but not the time, money or inclination to strap some lasers to the Tempest and a coaxial 155mm to the Nomad? |
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Xerxes52
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
XBL Gamertag: Xerxes52
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Post by Xerxes52 on Jan 22, 2017 23:23:38 GMT
Bioware loves contrails so much that even horses have them! Come again? In DAI there was a faint contrail effect on the horses when their sprint was used. |
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jan 23, 2017 2:08:02 GMT
I absolutely hate Smudboy's videos. He rarely thinks anything through, just posts his gut reaction to what he thinks instead of actually putting time into analyzing what he's talking about. It's just hate-mongering. He's not even funny. And yet this time he actually touched on many topics we have posted in this vcery thread Thank you for proving my point!  |
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Post by themikefest on Jan 23, 2017 3:34:48 GMT
I like that he called it a dune buggy. If you haven't rode or drove one, I would suggest giving it a try. Lots of fun He also mentioned why not use a shuttle instead. I agree. |
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Ivory Samoan
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Raising Hell with the Flavor XX
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
Origin: IvorySamoan
Posts: 565 Likes: 933
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Post by Ivory Samoan on Jan 23, 2017 6:16:35 GMT
I like that he called it a dune buggy. If you haven't rode or drove one, I would suggest giving it a try. Lots of fun He also mentioned why not use a shuttle instead. I agree. Dune Bugs are so much fun... had a fling in one on some beaches here in sunny NZ last month: the Nomad does look like one too haha. My thinking is, it's primary function is the scanning of local geo sites for deployment of stored mining drones, and adventuring/trekking about is a secondary function with last line of defense shield blast a bit of an after thought from the peace loving Initiative. I may just call my Nomad "Bugs" now though XD |
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Post by Ahriman on Jan 23, 2017 9:53:06 GMT
In DAI there was a faint contrail effect on the horses when their sprint was used. That was actually the most efficient way to know that you were actually using a sprint, because the actual speed left something to be desired... Not like there was any use of horses anyway. I tried it for a few minutes to check out how my lizard horse looks like, but after that it's just fast travel. Well if someone likes to watch horse back for a few minutes between playing the game it's fine, I don't judge. |
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The Elder King
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 23, 2017 10:15:51 GMT
In DAI there was a faint contrail effect on the horses when their sprint was used. That was the most efficient way to know that you were actually using a sprint, because the actual speed left something to be desired... Hopefully the Nomad will go way faster, and be more fun to drive. |
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Muddy Boots
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
Posts: 594 Likes: 764
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Post by Muddy Boots on Jan 23, 2017 10:37:59 GMT
Damn, so much for that idea. Looks like we're back on square one. Send the scout you could potentially be basing your entire survival on out there with nothing but harsh language. Good job, AI (and by AI I mean BioWare). At this point I wish they did just go full satire/parody of the series. Then at least we could all have a good laugh about it. I don't really have a problem with it. People seem to think the Tempest is just going to be showing up where there are massive battle fleets. Remember that there are no Relays so everywhere they go it's in FTL. Patrolling in the OT works because ships entering a system always do it at a Relay and can't go to FTL right away so they can be detected. In MEA they will be coming in from any possible direction, so detection is very unlikely. Especially for a small ship with stealth systems. Where they go they will detect threats first. And their goal is to find an uninhabited planet for humanity. So they don't need to go to battle. They have a specific objective. There is nothing to say that other ships in the AI fleet don't have weapons. It makes sense to keep those around the Arks to protect them rather than send them off. Remember resources are scarce. People seem to assume the Tempest could do everything it is meant to (explore, be super-stealthy, etc) and also have guns big enough to defend it. But because it's an exploration vessel it shouldn't really be in a position to defend a colony persay. That's for the defense ships. So if there is nothing to defend then running and hiding is an option. There are just so many reasonable arguments for not having weapons. There are also reasonable arguments for having weapons. This means both are reasonable decisions and thus the AI choosing one doesn't make it dumb. It's like choosing Pepsi or Coke. I think choosing Pepsi is stupid, but it's still a valid choice. I agree with you. Except about the Pepsi. People have pointed out that today's scout vehicles are armed. True. But they also don't fly through space and go stealth at the drop of a hat. Now the Nomad, I want to see how powerful this shield blast is and what kind of damage it can do and how long it takes to recharge before I complain too much about that. |
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The Elder King
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,370 Likes: 8,284
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 23, 2017 10:40:36 GMT
Hopefully the Nomad will go way faster, and be more fun to drive. I honestly couldn't care less about the Nomad given that it is unarmed and just means to get from point A to point B. I actually think it'll be used certain times in exploration as well. Beside, even if its function is only to move from point A to point B, being more fun to drive it makes the experience less boring. |
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Post by themikefest on Jan 23, 2017 12:19:20 GMT
I actually think it'll be used certain times in exploration as well. Beside, even if its function is only to move from point A to point B, being more fun to drive it makes the experience less boring. What would be a lot more fun is being able to listen some Ozzy while cruising around. excellent |
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jan 23, 2017 14:18:14 GMT
I don't really have a problem with it. People seem to think the Tempest is just going to be showing up where there are massive battle fleets. Remember that there are no Relays so everywhere they go it's in FTL. Patrolling in the OT works because ships entering a system always do it at a Relay and can't go to FTL right away so they can be detected. In MEA they will be coming in from any possible direction, so detection is very unlikely. Especially for a small ship with stealth systems. Where they go they will detect threats first. And their goal is to find an uninhabited planet for humanity. So they don't need to go to battle. They have a specific objective. There is nothing to say that other ships in the AI fleet don't have weapons. It makes sense to keep those around the Arks to protect them rather than send them off. Remember resources are scarce. People seem to assume the Tempest could do everything it is meant to (explore, be super-stealthy, etc) and also have guns big enough to defend it. But because it's an exploration vessel it shouldn't really be in a position to defend a colony persay. That's for the defense ships. So if there is nothing to defend then running and hiding is an option. There are just so many reasonable arguments for not having weapons. There are also reasonable arguments for having weapons. This means both are reasonable decisions and thus the AI choosing one doesn't make it dumb. It's like choosing Pepsi or Coke. I think choosing Pepsi is stupid, but it's still a valid choice. I agree with you. Except about the Pepsi. People have pointed out that today's scout vehicles are armed. True. But they also don't fly through space and go stealth at the drop of a hat. Now the Nomad, I want to see how powerful this shield blast is and what kind of damage it can do and how long it takes to recharge before I complain too much about that. But you can bet that if they could fly through space or go into stealth mode, they'd be armed as well.  As for the Shield Blast, my understanding is it's simply a knockback, not a damaging attack. |
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The Elder King
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,370 Likes: 8,284
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 23, 2017 14:20:19 GMT
I agree with you. Except about the Pepsi. People have pointed out that today's scout vehicles are armed. True. But they also don't fly through space and go stealth at the drop of a hat. Now the Nomad, I want to see how powerful this shield blast is and what kind of damage it can do and how long it takes to recharge before I complain too much about that. But you can bet that if they could fly through space or go into stealth mode, they'd be armed as well. As for the Shield Blast, my understanding is it's simply a knockback, not a damaging attack. I'm not sure, but given it can be improved on I guess if it's not damanging it can become such with an upgrade. |
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Post by themikefest on Jan 23, 2017 15:00:02 GMT
As for the Shield Blast, my understanding is it's simply a knockback, not a damaging attack. I would guess any damage taken would be if the enemy is knocked back into a rock or any solid object that might be in the area |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 23, 2017 15:29:43 GMT
I don't really have a problem with it. People seem to think the Tempest is just going to be showing up where there are massive battle fleets. Remember that there are no Relays so everywhere they go it's in FTL. Patrolling in the OT works because ships entering a system always do it at a Relay and can't go to FTL right away so they can be detected. In MEA they will be coming in from any possible direction, so detection is very unlikely. Especially for a small ship with stealth systems. Where they go they will detect threats first. And their goal is to find an uninhabited planet for humanity. So they don't need to go to battle. They have a specific objective. There is nothing to say that other ships in the AI fleet don't have weapons. It makes sense to keep those around the Arks to protect them rather than send them off. Remember resources are scarce. People seem to assume the Tempest could do everything it is meant to (explore, be super-stealthy, etc) and also have guns big enough to defend it. But because it's an exploration vessel it shouldn't really be in a position to defend a colony persay. That's for the defense ships. So if there is nothing to defend then running and hiding is an option. There are just so many reasonable arguments for not having weapons. There are also reasonable arguments for having weapons. This means both are reasonable decisions and thus the AI choosing one doesn't make it dumb. It's like choosing Pepsi or Coke. I think choosing Pepsi is stupid, but it's still a valid choice. Sorry, that's a strawman. People (at least from what I've seen) don't expect "battles" or "colony defense". They expect a ship that may be the last, best hope (or at least the primary hope) for humanity to find a new home to be able to handle itself in case things go massively tits up and running away isn't an option. Seriously why are people not getting this? If you can talk, you talk. If you can't talk you sneak. If you can't sneak you run. If you can't run you better damn well be able to do something other than pray and/or kiss your ass goodbye. There are zero reasonable arguments for not having some type armament onboard. Not a Death Star Blast. Not a Thannix. Not a dreadnaught cannon. But at least a basic GARDIAN system for defense and maybe one offensive battery to keep small to medium sized ships at bay (or at least think twice about just charging in and finishing us off) and one ground support turret (it could even be like the shuttle turret we use in ME3). He also mentioned why not use a shuttle instead. I agree. Indeed. Posting the Hammerhead a few pages back made me think that if you already have flying/hovering vehicles like that, why are you still bothering with wheels? Granted Tempest is ME1 sized so they may not be able to fit a shuttle nor need one for planetary landings. But if not for ME1 nostalgia, a small flying/hovering vehicle would've made more sense, especially since we'd know even less about the possible terrain we'd encounter. |
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The Elder King
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,370 Likes: 8,284
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 23, 2017 15:41:47 GMT
I think the Tempest is actually smaller then the first Normandy. It's not in the same ship class of the latter.
Not that it justifies the lack of weapons, but it's not the same type of ship.
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Post by Ahriman on Jan 23, 2017 16:04:29 GMT
I think the Tempest is actually smaller then the first Normandy. It's not in the same ship class of the latter. Wasn't it indirectly confirmed with several schematics and Arks/Nexus sizes? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 16:12:08 GMT
I think the Tempest is actually smaller then the first Normandy. It's not in the same ship class of the latter. Wasn't it indirectly confirmed with several schematics and Arks/Nexus sizes? That was fan work, though (I think). |
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 23, 2017 16:14:52 GMT
There was that one chart but if that's accurate, the SR1 is longer only because its engine dealies extend out further. The fuselage appears to be about the same otherwise.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 23, 2017 16:23:39 GMT
No one is asking that the Tempest have guns that can punch a hole in a dreadnought, they are asking for reasonable self-defense armaments like for example the GARDIAN laser defense system. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
It's a scout ship. Scout ships by design and philosophy are unarmed. Their missions are to go in undetected and come back undetected.
Bio's failure here is their unwillingness to explain why they chose the scout route rather than a modified frigate/destroyer design.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 23, 2017 16:32:07 GMT
It's a scout ship. Scout ships by design and philosophy are unarmed.  Unless you're talking about unmanned drones (some of which are still armed), high-flying planes or satellites merely doing flyovers (some of which are still armed in fiction) pretty much every example of a scout vessel in RL or fiction is armed. Christ, 40 pages and we're still on this... |
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,905 Likes: 7,436
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Post by Gileadan on Jan 23, 2017 16:46:45 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
It's a scout ship. Scout ships by design and philosophy are unarmed. Their missions are to go in undetected and come back undetected.
Bio's failure here is their unwillingness to explain why they chose the scout route rather than a modified frigate/destroyer design.
Assuming that you can stay undetected all the time and having no backup plan if you don't is foolhardy. And no, not all scout ships are necessarily unarmed. I present the Anvil Carrack from Star Citizen. Dedicated scouting and exploration vessel, not that different in overall layout from the Tempest with its rover garage and all that. 123 meters long. Requires a crew of 6. Armed with with four twin gun turrets. Windows protected by deployable armor canopies. It's meant to survive whatever it finds on its exploration. Also, the size of this ship in comparison with the Tempest makes me wonder whether the Tempest will be bigger on the inside than on the outside. |
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 23, 2017 16:55:46 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
It's a scout ship. Scout ships by design and philosophy are unarmed.
...
Snip Also, historically, exploration ships were almost always armed at least to some capacity. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Quite true.
However, exploration ships are not scout ships. Explorations ships by their very purpose require a design that can handle some speculative hostile environments and can hold their own against them. To go against an enemy fleet, the mission type requires battleships, heavy cruisers, cruisers, destroyers.. etc. The composition of said fleet is designed to go toe-to-toe against the enemy. You don't include an exploration vessel for that mission type.
Scout ships are purpose built for a very specific mission type. That mission type is to go somewhere fast undetected, listen or do some sensor readings undetected and come back and report undetected. If they get detected, speed is their saviour. If that failed... well it comes with the territory. A Guardian laser system would be useless.
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 23, 2017 17:16:14 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
It's a scout ship. Scout ships by design and philosophy are unarmed. Their missions are to go in undetected and come back undetected.
Bio's failure here is their unwillingness to explain why they chose the scout route rather than a modified frigate/destroyer design.
Assuming that you can stay undetected all the time and having no backup plan if you don't is foolhardy. And no, not all scout ships are necessarily unarmed. I present the Anvil Carrack from Star Citizen. Dedicated scouting and exploration vessel, not that different in overall layout from the Tempest with its rover garage and all that. 123 meters long. Requires a crew of 6. Armed with with four twin gun turrets. Windows protected by deployable armor canopies. It's meant to survive whatever it finds on its exploration. Also, the size of this ship in comparison with the Tempest makes me wonder whether the Tempest will be bigger on the inside than on the outside. ,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
I think our differences is that I accept the ship as a plain scout vessel whereas many others prefer it carries a symbolic weapon. If the Tempest was described as an exploration vessel, then I'd agree that is must have a minimum weapon emplacement onboard.
Unfortunately, game design mechanics has combat on foot, making this issue a moot point.
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Be seeing you.
