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Post by degs29 on Jan 23, 2017 14:36:55 GMT
In terms of narrative, I actually preferred ME2. I think ME1 has a better overall story arc, but ME2 relies heavily on incredible characters and a more personal story.
I prefer ME3 for its gameplay, and ME1 for its RPG elements.
If they could somehow meld all three games together, that is what I'd hope Andromeda would be. We've already seen that they are not going the ME1 RPG route with regards to skills, so my dream game will have to wait. Still, I hope for the great character writing of ME2, the good story writing of ME1, and the gameplay of ME3.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Jan 23, 2017 15:51:25 GMT
I still say him leaving during ME2 was the reason the story went downhill. He had a plan for the Reapers and without him... Mac and Co decided that going that route wasn't what they were going to do and made up a less than stellar arc of their own.
It should be a rule that, if you're going to make a trilogy, then the lead writer/creative director should be present for the whole trilogy lol.
ME1 though, I don't think was supposed to be part of a trilogy and that's why it was so much better than the others, story wise.
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Post by The Elder King on Jan 23, 2017 15:57:24 GMT
I still say him leaving during ME2 was the reason the story went downhill. He had a plan for the Reapers and without him... Mac and Co decided that going that route wasn't what they were going to do and made up a less than stellar arc of their own. It should be a rule that, if you're going to make a trilogy, then the lead writer/creative director should be present for the whole trilogy lol. ME1 though, I don't think was supposed to be part of a trilogy and that's why it was so much better than the others, story wise. It was meant to be a trilogy from the start, if I recall well. And from what I read on Drew's original plan for the ME endings, it was on the same level of the endings we got. Between his and Mac/Casey's, it's a fight to pick the less negative, not the better one. |
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 23, 2017 16:02:24 GMT
I still say him leaving during ME2 was the reason the story went downhill. He had a plan for the Reapers and without him... Mac and Co decided that going that route wasn't what they were going to do and made up a less than stellar arc of their own. It should be a rule that, if you're going to make a trilogy, then the lead writer/creative director should be present for the whole trilogy lol. ME1 though, I don't think was supposed to be part of a trilogy and that's why it was so much better than the others, story wise. It was meant to be a trilogy from the start, if I recall well. And from what I read on Drew's original plan for the ME endings, it was on the same level of the endings we got. Between his and Mac/Casey's, it's a fight to pick the less negative, not the better one. I agree and if my opinion means anything, I prefer the ending we got over what the "original" idea was for I think even though it was Karpyshyn's idea I think it would have gone over just as well as the ones we got. Now it is comparing Apples to Oranges, but one of the ideas from Karpyshyn which seems to be the popular one reminds me a lot of what happened with Assassin's Creed 3 and its ending and even though it didn't get the public backlash as Mass Effect 3 I think fans of the game were more upset at it. |
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Post by jtav on Jan 23, 2017 16:05:08 GMT
ME1 had probably the weakest writing out of any BW game bar Neverwinter Nights with squadmates who are paper thin exposition dumps, a plot that makes no sense and a rehash of their three prior games to the point that my reaction was "I liked this better when it was called KOTOR." But where ME3 screws up, it screws up big time because the narrative is bad at eliciting the desired emotional reaction. "A child died. Feel sad."
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Post by sgtreed24 on Jan 23, 2017 16:12:31 GMT
It was meant to be a trilogy from the start, if I recall well. And from what I read on Drew's original plan for the ME endings, it was on the same level of the endings we got. Between his and Mac/Casey's, it's a fight to pick the less negative, not the better one. I agree and if my opinion means anything, I prefer the ending we got over what the "original" idea was for I think even though it was Karpyshyn's idea I think it would have gone over just as well as the ones we got. Now it is comparing Apples to Oranges, but one of the ideas from Karpyshyn which seems to be the popular one reminds me a lot of what happened with Assassin's Creed 3 and its ending and even though it didn't get the public backlash as Mass Effect 3 I think fans of the game were more upset at it. What was his proposed ending? But I still don't think Mass Effect was meant to be a trilogy. Was it stated somewhere that it was? |
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Post by jtav on Jan 23, 2017 16:14:23 GMT
I was around when ME was announced--always intended as a trilogy and your decisions carrying over was a very big deal.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 23, 2017 16:21:48 GMT
Karpyshyn killed Revan in the cheesiest fucking way imaginable. You realize that was likely not his decision, right? It was a TOR tie-in for marketing purposes which means it's barely above a novelization in terms of creative freedom. Otherwise I disagree about his quality of writing, I like his style. To each their own. |
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 23, 2017 16:21:52 GMT
I agree and if my opinion means anything, I prefer the ending we got over what the "original" idea was for I think even though it was Karpyshyn's idea I think it would have gone over just as well as the ones we got. Now it is comparing Apples to Oranges, but one of the ideas from Karpyshyn which seems to be the popular one reminds me a lot of what happened with Assassin's Creed 3 and its ending and even though it didn't get the public backlash as Mass Effect 3 I think fans of the game were more upset at it. What was his proposed ending? But I still don't think Mass Effect was meant to be a trilogy. Was it stated somewhere that it was? A spoiler tag just incase people don't want to read it.
The way I have read it is that basically the race that created The Reapers did it to solve a growing problem with Dark Energy and they kept harvesting races to improve their knowledge to solve the problem, its why they have waited until they brink of creating AI so they know they are intelligent enough to help solve the problem. At the very end they give Shepard the choice to sacrifice Humanity to be the final Reaper because they believe Humanity will be the "special snowflake" that is the key to solving the problem or Shepard can refuse. If Shepard refuses the galaxy is in its own to solve the problem without the Reapers.
That is at least how I remember it from what I read when it was first making waves on the Internet. I could have twisted it over the years. As far as it being a trilogy, I can't recall exactly when, but it was mentioned they planned on telling the story across three games prior or just after the launch of the first game. I don't see any developer even attempting it again for awhile since there many areas that can change during development. |
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jan 23, 2017 16:28:06 GMT
Karpyshyn killed Revan in the cheesiest fucking way imaginable. You realize that was likely not his decision, right? It was a TOR tie-in for marketing purposes which means it's barely above a novelization in terms of creative freedom. Otherwise I disagree about his quality of writing, I like his style. To each their own. Fair point, about the decision coming from "on high". And indeed, to each their own. I don't hate his writing, and some of his ideas have been fantastic. Just not consistent for me I guess, and I hem on that. |
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Post by AGECCR on Jan 23, 2017 17:47:17 GMT
All I can say is that I have enjoyed the work I've seen from Karpyshyn. Was it all gold? That would be impossible, everyone has moments of strengths and weaknesses and it is exceedingly important to remember that the writing in these games are a team effort. I never expected him back for the rest of the series once he left Bioware after ME2.
I do think Mac gets a lot of crap thrown in his direction and it is completely unbalanced. I did think the ending to ME3 was horrific, but that was just one point in his writing career (and I'd say the same about Casey, whom some people threw under a bus after that incident - they seemed to forget that without him Mass Effect wouldn't have even been here in the first place). Aside from the ending, I really enjoyed the Arrival DLC from ME2 and I really liked ME3 (might've been my favorite in the series if not due to a few things, one of which has already been mentioned).
I'm optimistic about Andromeda and what I have heard about the story sounds intriguing. I love the idea of an exploration focused narrative, having a family, and starting the writing with characters first. I even think going to a new galaxy is cool, I just hope they can open up their creativity to the max and make something out there and alien.
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Post by Cyonan on Jan 23, 2017 18:02:13 GMT
I do like the style of the writing while Karpyshyn was around in ME1 though I will also note the game also raised some pretty big points for me that I knew were going to be trouble spots in the future.
Namely they built Sovereign up to be this huge unstoppable force that took multiple fleets just to take down. I also knew by the end of the Mass Effect trilogy we were going to defeat the entire fleet of these things that have destroyed countless civilizations before, and it was making me wonder how they were ever going to have us defeat a threat the game is clearly showing me that we can't beat without just conjuring up some magic trinket. Turns out we just got the blueprint to make the magic trinket ourselves.
I've heard the Dark Energy ending idea as well and I'm not convinced that one makes a lot of sense. More sense than star child sure, but why do the Reapers show up and suddenly say "We've been harvesting civilizations for millions of years and we think you can let us finally solve this problem, but if you're not cool with that we'll just leave you alone"? Every thing I've heard about this ending raises a bunch of questions about how a lot of it would make any sense.
If they do intend to have a storyline that spans multiple games in Andromeda I do hope that they plan the whole thing out from the start because I get the sense that while Mass Effect was always planned to be a trilogy, they didn't plan out the story beyond each individual game. They just kept passing potential problems with the story down the line until it all culminated at the very end and they were left with a bunch of holes and 10 minutes to solve them all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 18:19:46 GMT
In my view, BioWARE demonstrated an ability to create excellent short stories centered around interesting characters time and again. ME2 in my view is the best example of this mastery.
In terms of bigger picture story-telling, as someone who played Mass Effect as a Trilogy, I thought it was a successful narrative if you do not dwell. In DA Origins, I felt that bio was struggling with its own lore, or, more likely, I was.
The best examples of BioWARE Big Picture narratives I have seen was in the SWTOR, both as the individual class stories and as all 8 class stories intertwined. The mastery of SWTOR was that it was eight stories, each of them different, so an individual player sooner or later came upon the one that s/he loved. Some where taking unusual twists and turns, like the Imperial Agent, some were a straightforward shot from A to Z, like the Sith Warrior, and a story like the Smuggler's was charming capper from one adventure to the next. I do not think there is another company out there that managed a narrative of that complexity and quality to date.
To tell you the truth, in SWTOR, I've liked the storylines written by someone new to the genre (from what I have heard) than Karpushyn's Jedi Knight - though plenty of people loved the JK story.
Based on my experiences with vanilla SWTOR and the MET, the following two things are true.
1. BioWARE pays attention to its stories and tries different things
2. ME lore up to now is polished and appealing.
So, tbh, even if I am not going to be that fond of the overall story, I believe I will have fun.
Also, the topics that Andromeda can cover rival the MET's central theme of What is Awareness/What is Life/What is Personhood. Even if the first game will be a set-up game with a lot of lore covering quests, it may produce a stronger sequel.
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 23, 2017 18:20:15 GMT
I do like the style of the writing while Karpyshyn was around in ME1 though I will also note the game also raised some pretty big points for me that I knew were going to be trouble spots in the future. Namely they built Sovereign up to be this huge unstoppable force that took multiple fleets just to take down. I also knew by the end of the Mass Effect trilogy we were going to defeat the entire fleet of these things that have destroyed countless civilizations before, and it was making me wonder how they were ever going to have us defeat a threat the game is clearly showing me that we can't beat without just conjuring up some magic trinket. Turns out we just got the blueprint to make the magic trinket ourselves. I've heard the Dark Energy ending idea as well and I'm not convinced that one makes a lot of sense. More sense than star child sure, but why do the Reapers show up and suddenly say "We've been harvesting civilizations for millions of years and we think you can let us finally solve this problem, but if you're not cool with that we'll just leave you alone"? Every thing I've heard about this ending raises a bunch of questions about how a lot of it would make any sense. If they do intend to have a storyline that spans multiple games in Andromeda I do hope that they plan the whole thing out from the start because I get the sense that while Mass Effect was always planned to be a trilogy, they didn't plan out the story beyond each individual game. They just kept passing potential problems with the story down the line until it all culminated at the very end and they were left with a bunch of holes and 10 minutes to solve them all. My guessing is that they have more of a "sequel" idea for Andromeda over a "story that spans three games" that they had with the original trilogy. |
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Post by Amirit on Jan 23, 2017 19:15:33 GMT
What was his proposed ending? But I still don't think Mass Effect was meant to be a trilogy. Was it stated somewhere that it was? A spoiler tag just incase people don't want to read it.
The way I have read it is that basically the race that created The Reapers did it to solve a growing problem with Dark Energy and they kept harvesting races to improve their knowledge to solve the problem, its why they have waited until they brink of creating AI so they know they are intelligent enough to help solve the problem. At the very end they give Shepard the choice to sacrifice Humanity to be the final Reaper because they believe Humanity will be the "special snowflake" that is the key to solving the problem or Shepard can refuse. If Shepard refuses the galaxy is in its own to solve the problem without the Reapers.
That is at least how I remember it from what I read when it was first making waves on the Internet. I could have twisted it over the years. As far as it being a trilogy, I can't recall exactly when, but it was mentioned they planned on telling the story across three games prior or just after the launch of the first game. I don't see any developer even attempting it again for awhile since there many areas that can change during development. If what you remember is accurate, I owe Karpishin an apology (not that he Knows about it, but still). I did not care much about his books - bad (I insist - bad) amateurish cumbersome style, simple and not always consistent ideas and so on. Yet, the original idea for ME3 is so much more sane, logical and bound to previous games than what we got... Guess I will join the crowd moaning over his leave game development at that crucial point. |
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Post by NRieh on Jan 23, 2017 19:27:57 GMT
He's on TOR. He's behind the Jedi Knight class story. And basicallly all the KotET is screaming 'Hey look, we're making KOTOR3 now!'...which would all be great if not for the fact that PC can have 8 different backgrounds, 4\8 being non-force users. It's a good 'KOTOR'-y story, but it only makes sence for the jedi (or sith).
And if you think that he's a good writer - take a look at Kahlee Sanders. And think again. I don't think I've seen anyone less interesting than her. I've read 2 novels, and all I can say about her - she's blond. Random shopkeeper from the Citadel has more personality.
Drew used to be good at game-writing and designing he plot\missions, but he's really bad at novels and characters. Before someone mentions ME1 - it's a team work, with him being something more like a manager. He did not write Kaidan, and many other characters do not belong to them. Anderson probably is the only good thing coming from him and (surprisingly) he's much more alive in games ,with his handful of lines, not in the novels.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 23, 2017 19:43:17 GMT
Yeah, I know he's at the Austin branch and thus unlikely to have anything to do with ME or DA for that matter. It's just an odd thing. Even if Andromeda turns out to be amazing, the guy who wrote it is working elsewhere now, so there's no guarantee that Andromeda 2 will be good. There are only a few very good writers or visionaries working in video games -- obviously, when you look at scripts or consider the narratives of most games. So when I look at a game, I don't think "Oh Bioware is making this game" anymore than I think "Oh, Universal Studios is making this movie." I always think, who's the director, who are the writers? So mostly I'm surprised that people like Karpyshyn have very little recognition for the very great things they've done, both from fans and, I think, from the companies that hire them. If Andromeda does turn out to be amazing, I just hope that some people on this site will get off their ever-loving praise train for L'Etoile and Karpyshyn and stop dumping on Walters for the ME3 endings. After 4 years of it and thread after thread that thinks it's being coy but really just laying it on again... it's really gotten tiresome. In terms of writing capability, I've never really thought of Karpyshyn one way or the other. As for the other "favored writer", to be honest I'm rather ambivalent with Chris L'Etoile's work as well, outside of his contributions to the world building and 'alien' side of the setting. That being said, I have yet to see anyone on BioWare's writing team step up and give me that non-human element like he did; let alone have a desire to explore that portion of science fiction. Was L'Etoile the best writer ever concerning these non-human elements? No, but seeing as how he was the only one who was actively trying to depict them in a serious light in a genre stuffed to the gills with rubber fore-headed humans I would say that that he comes in first place by simple fact of running unopposed. Sure, the Rachni as an obvious nod to the Formics from Ender's Game isn't necessarily the most original of ideas, but at least he attempted to give the setting a semblance of nuance with life that wasn't exactly like ours. Judging by how BioWare generally likes to deal with the 'alien' elements in their games the Rachni would have likely been just another version of the Klixen without his input. As for him and the higher ups butting heads over Legion and the Geth, maybe he did indeed go against the creative lead's policies by actually wanting to depict an alien intelligence. But by opposing that direction we got to see a version of an AI not present in 99.99% of all other mainstream science fiction. It was certainly more appealing than the knock off Commander Data clones we were saddled with in ME 3 at any rate. If ME:A can give me a depiction of an alien on par with the ones we got in ME 1, I will be the first one to congratulate BioWare, and the specific writer(s) behind that. As it stands now though, it doesn't look like they are interested in delving into that side of science fiction any time soon. |
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Post by BadgerladDK on Jan 23, 2017 19:51:42 GMT
He's on TOR. He's behind the Jedi Knight class story. And basicallly all the KotET is screaming 'Hey look, we're making KOTOR3 now!'...which would all be great if not for the fact that PC can have 8 different backgrounds, 4\8 being non-force users. It's a good 'KOTOR'-y story, but it only makes sence for the jedi (or sith). And if you think that he's a good writer - take a look at Kahlee Sanders. And think again. I don't think I've seen anyone less interesting than her. I've read 2 novels, and all I can say about her - she's blond. Random shopkeeper from the Citadel has more personality. Drew used to be good at game-writing and designing he plot\missions, but he's really bad at novels and characters. Before someone mentions ME1 - it's a team work, with him being something more like a manager. He did not write Kaidan, and many other characters do not belong to them. Anderson probably is the only good thing coming from him and (surprisingly) he's much more alive in games ,with his handful of lines, not in the novels. The Darth Bane trilogy would like a word regarding Drew's lack of skill as a novelist. Apart from the third one having a bit of weird pacing at the end, they're pretty great. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 19:59:41 GMT
If Andromeda does turn out to be amazing, I just hope that some people on this site will get off their ever-loving praise train for L'Etoile and Karpyshyn and stop dumping on Walters for the ME3 endings. After 4 years of it and thread after thread that thinks it's being coy but really just laying it on again... it's really gotten tiresome. In terms of writing capability, I've never really thought of Karpyshyn one way or the other. As for the other "favored writer", to be honest I'm rather ambivalent with Chris L'Etoile's work as well, outside of his contributions to the world building and 'alien' side of the setting. That being said, I have yet to see anyone on BioWare's writing team step up and give me that non-human element like he did; let alone have a desire to explore that portion of science fiction. Was L'Etoile the best writer ever concerning these non-human elements? No, but seeing as how he was the only one who was actively trying to depict them in a serious light in a genre stuffed to the gills with rubber fore-headed humans I would say that that he comes in first place by simple fact of running unopposed. Sure, the Rachni as an obvious nod to the Formics from Ender's Game isn't necessarily the most original of ideas, but at least he attempted to give the setting a semblance of nuance with life that wasn't exactly like ours. Judging by how BioWare generally likes to deal with the 'alien' elements in their games the Rachni would have likely been just another version of the Klixen without his input. As for him and the higher ups butting heads over Legion and the Geth, maybe he did indeed go against the creative lead's policies by actually wanting to depict an alien intelligence. But by opposing that direction we got to see a version of an AI not present in 99.99% of all other mainstream science fiction. It was certainly more appealing than the knock off Commander Data clones we were saddled with in ME 3 at any rate. If ME:A can give me a depiction of an alien on par with the ones we got in ME 1, I will be the first one to congratulate BioWare, and the specific writer(s) behind that. As it stands now though, it doesn't look like they are interested in delving into that side of science fiction any time soon. I'll just repeat myself - After 4 years of it and thread after thread that thinks it's being coy but really just laying it on again... it's really gotten tiresome. I am not totally down on L'Etoile's writing... it's the schism that fans have generated out of his post about "higher-paids" over-ruling him on one aspect of Legion that really gets to me... as I said, after 4 long years of it going on. Afterall, it is the job and duty of "higher-paids" to make the final corporate decisions; and in all companies, that means some really good decisions get made and some not so good ones. Also, I'm sure L'Etoile wasn't writing Legion in a total vacuum; that is, what DID get into the game of Legion that everyone seems to love... likely did so only with the approval of those same "higher-paids." |
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 23, 2017 20:20:10 GMT
In terms of writing capability, I've never really thought of Karpyshyn one way or the other. As for the other "favored writer", to be honest I'm rather ambivalent with Chris L'Etoile's work as well, outside of his contributions to the world building and 'alien' side of the setting. That being said, I have yet to see anyone on BioWare's writing team step up and give me that non-human element like he did; let alone have a desire to explore that portion of science fiction. Was L'Etoile the best writer ever concerning these non-human elements? No, but seeing as how he was the only one who was actively trying to depict them in a serious light in a genre stuffed to the gills with rubber fore-headed humans I would say that that he comes in first place by simple fact of running unopposed. Sure, the Rachni as an obvious nod to the Formics from Ender's Game isn't necessarily the most original of ideas, but at least he attempted to give the setting a semblance of nuance with life that wasn't exactly like ours. Judging by how BioWare generally likes to deal with the 'alien' elements in their games the Rachni would have likely been just another version of the Klixen without his input. As for him and the higher ups butting heads over Legion and the Geth, maybe he did indeed go against the creative lead's policies by actually wanting to depict an alien intelligence. But by opposing that direction we got to see a version of an AI not present in 99.99% of all other mainstream science fiction. It was certainly more appealing than the knock off Commander Data clones we were saddled with in ME 3 at any rate. If ME:A can give me a depiction of an alien on par with the ones we got in ME 1, I will be the first one to congratulate BioWare, and the specific writer(s) behind that. As it stands now though, it doesn't look like they are interested in delving into that side of science fiction any time soon. I'll just repeat myself - After 4 years of it and thread after thread that thinks it's being coy but really just laying it on again... it's really gotten tiresome. I am not totally down on L'Etoile's writing... it's the schism that fans have generated out of his post about "higher-paids" over-ruling him on one aspect of Legion that really gets to me... as I said, after 4 long years of it going on. Afterall, it is the job and duty of "higher-paids" to make the final corporate decisions; and in all companies, that means some really good decisions get made and some not so good ones. Also, I'm sure L'Etoile wasn't writing Legion in a total vacuum; that is, what DID get into the game of Legion that everyone seems to love... likely did so only with the approval of those same "higher-paids." Absolutely, there was most definitely a group effort involved with Legion, the Geth, and even the Rachni. My main reason for "favoring" Chris over the other writers though, is how he was (as far I know) the only person pushing so hard for those 'alien' elements to be included at all. I mean look at how quickly Legion, EDI, and the Geth went all Pinocchio-bot once L'Etoile was no longer working on the series or at how the Rachni were ignored save for a copy/paste choice from the first game in ME 3. Etc. It seems like he was one of the few (or maybe even only) voices of dissent that did not want to see all these alien elements discarded for more "human drama". Personally, I judge video game writers by how much they can supply said game with a given topic or facet of storytelling/world building. And from what I've seen, BioWare has been sorely lacking in the non-human department ever since Chris left. I'm not saying that people like Mac Walters can't do good work; in fact I enjoyed some of his work on several characters, and I'm sure he is going to be behind some things I will enjoy in Andromeda. But, if one were to ask me what my favorite part of Mass Effect setting is, and who my favorite writer for said element is, L'Etoile is still superior than any of the other writers attached to this setting (so far). |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 21:07:47 GMT
I'll just repeat myself - After 4 years of it and thread after thread that thinks it's being coy but really just laying it on again... it's really gotten tiresome. I am not totally down on L'Etoile's writing... it's the schism that fans have generated out of his post about "higher-paids" over-ruling him on one aspect of Legion that really gets to me... as I said, after 4 long years of it going on. Afterall, it is the job and duty of "higher-paids" to make the final corporate decisions; and in all companies, that means some really good decisions get made and some not so good ones. Also, I'm sure L'Etoile wasn't writing Legion in a total vacuum; that is, what DID get into the game of Legion that everyone seems to love... likely did so only with the approval of those same "higher-paids." Absolutely, there was most definitely a group effort involved with Legion, the Geth, and even the Rachni. My main reason for "favoring" Chris over the other writers though, is how he was (as far I know) the only person pushing so hard for those 'alien' elements to be included at all. I mean look at how quickly Legion, EDI, and the Geth went all Pinocchio-bot once L'Etoile was no longer working on the series or at how the Rachni were ignored save for a copy/paste choice from the first game in ME 3. Etc. It seems like he was one of the few (or maybe even only) voices of dissent that did not want to see all these alien elements discarded for more "human drama". Personally, I judge video game writers by how much they can supply said game with a given topic or facet of storytelling/world building. And from what I've seen, BioWare has been sorely lacking in the non-human department ever since Chris left. I'm not saying that people like Mac Walters can't do good work; in fact I enjoyed some of his work on several characters, and I'm sure he is going to be behind some things I will enjoy in Andromeda. But, if one were to ask me what my favorite part of Mass Effect setting is, and who my favorite writer for said element is, L'Etoile is still superior than any of the other writers attached to this setting (so far). I actually don't think Legion suffered any worse than a lot of the ME2 characters in ME3. That game simply had too large a cast, all of which could be dead, for Bioware to direct the game really in a direction that favored any one of them. As for the Rachni, they were more ignored in ME2 than they were in ME3... and L'Etoile was still around for the beginning of ME2. I agree, he did contribute positively in many respects to the original Trilogy. I'm not an HR person for Bioware so I don't know if they would have a problem with rehiring L'Etoile and I don't know if L'Etoile even wants to come back. The fact is he left years ago... and as I said, it's the continued fueling of this schism by the fans that I as REALLY tired of. |
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 24, 2017 2:16:15 GMT
I still say him leaving during ME2 was the reason the story went downhill. He had a plan for the Reapers and without him... Mac and Co decided that going that route wasn't what they were going to do and made up a less than stellar arc of their own. It should be a rule that, if you're going to make a trilogy, then the lead writer/creative director should be present for the whole trilogy lol. ME1 though, I don't think was supposed to be part of a trilogy and that's why it was so much better than the others, story wise. It wasn't so much that Drew had a plan with the reapers as it was that he had brought forth all the foreshadowing and change of course for that plan with ME2 only for Casey and co. to go back to an earlier concept with ME3. ME1 feels much more in line with the overall theme of the Reapers presented in ME3 than 2 did, but because of the way the story is built across the trilogy neither "plan" really fit in its original form anymore and they ended up scrambling for something that worked. The Reapers were a conflict on such a scale that anything could've gotten wrong. That was why I was always hopeful they actually had an idea in mind that wouldn't let me down, but ah well. The ironic thing is also that Drew's Dark Energy plotline creates the exact same issues on a fundamental level as the current one: 1. The Reapers are suddenly very easy to comprehend. 2. Their goal becomes the primary goal for Shepard. The choice of sacrificing all humans to solve Galactic Warming or "Kill all Reapers and take our chances" is pretty much a concept they did apply after all, just not on the theme of Dark Energy but something else that was just as irrelevant to the overall narrative. You can only argue Dark Energy was foreshadowed better and not contradicted along the journey in contrast to the Reapers' idea about it, but you'd still get an ending choice that felt too drastic and too undesireable either way where the presented "Optimal outcome" became the most absurd one. |
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Post by umgayeb on Jan 24, 2017 3:43:46 GMT
IIRC some have his tweets have implied he is no longer on SW:TOR and is working on the secret IP. Just another reason for me to look forward to the new IP.
edit: found the tweet
Drew Karpyshyn
.@robinpm100 Andromeda has a great team, but I'm not on it. Was working on #SWTOR and am now on <<REDACTED>>
6:47 PM - 4 Dec 2016
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Post by lastpawn on Jan 24, 2017 7:26:20 GMT
I have to say that I largely disagree with your post... I actually felt that ME2 had the best overall narrative. It's simple, direct, and clear from the first mission beyond the tutorial. ME2 has its problems but its narrative is the least cluttered... We disagree but I like you actually laid your reasoning out. Let me just try to address a few things, not to try changing your mind, but because it's a boring afternoon here and I'd enjoy the diversion. It's been maybe 4 years since I played ME1 but I'm fairly certain I'm aware of that game's flaws. Hence "moments of brilliance" rather than "a brilliant game." Overall I felt like the good the game did vastly overshadowed the bad. I liked it despite its flaws -- and coincidentally I don't agree with all the ones you listed. On ME2. I can appreciate the simplicity of ME2's narrative, in the sense that the plot is quite straightforward, but let's look at narrative more broadly. It starts with Shepard dying because... because...? Because gameplay reasons of course. Liara and VS don't join you because... gameplay reasons. Every single member in your team has to go on some sort of quest where they like you more. Exactly one quest. For each member. And the level of their loyalty will enable them to (e.g.) dodge or take a rocket to their face during the suicide mission? That makes no sense: loyalty shouldn't make you better or worse at self-preservation, like moving your face out of the way of an incoming rocket. So why is it like that for every. single. companion? Gameplay reasons. It's a checklist game, and that's not simplicity, as far as I'm concerned. And checklists yank me out of the game. To go on a bit of a rant about ME2... Weapons were class restricted, right? And you think, Oh, OK, I guess Shepard just didn't have that sort of weapon training? But then at one point Shepard literally just bends down and picks up a new weapon type and it's all good. How does this fit into the narrative? Shepard was just lazy? Or how do we explain ammo clips in a place where there shouldn't be any? And so on. All of this is part of the narrative as far as I'm concerned, and such moments easily yank me out of the experience. I think games, like movies, catch you by the heart rather than by your brain. I listed some problems with ME2, but I still liked that game a lot, even after the whole by-the-book-loyalty thing got on my nerves. My overall point is that I want powerful narrative-driven moments in ME: A, and they've been largely missing since ME1 (see Sovereign's speech). You know, I want some damn moments of brilliance in my games. |
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Post by mrfixit on Jan 24, 2017 10:35:03 GMT
I have to say that I largely disagree with your post... I actually felt that ME2 had the best overall narrative. It's simple, direct, and clear from the first mission beyond the tutorial. ME2 has its problems but its narrative is the least cluttered... On ME2. I can appreciate the simplicity of ME2's narrative, in the sense that the plot is quite straightforward, but let's look at narrative more broadly. It starts with Shepard dying because... because...? Because gameplay reasons of course. Liara and VS don't join you because... gameplay reasons. Every single member in your team has to go on some sort of quest where they like you more. Exactly one quest. For each member. And the level of their loyalty will enable them to (e.g.) dodge or take a rocket to their face during the suicide mission? That makes no sense: loyalty shouldn't make you better or worse at self-preservation, like moving your face out of the way of an incoming rocket. So why is it like that for every. single. companion? Gameplay reasons. It's a checklist game, and that's not simplicity, as far as I'm concerned. And checklists yank me out of the game. To go on a bit of a rant about ME2... Weapons were class restricted, right? And you think, Oh, OK, I guess Shepard just didn't have that sort of weapon training? But then at one point Shepard literally just bends down and picks up a new weapon type and it's all good. How does this fit into the narrative? Shepard was just lazy? Or how do we explain ammo clips in a place where there shouldn't be any? And so on. All of this is part of the narrative as far as I'm concerned, and such moments easily yank me out of the experience. I think games, like movies, catch you by the heart rather than by your brain. I listed some problems with ME2, but I still liked that game a lot, even after the whole by-the-book-loyalty thing got on my nerves. My overall point is that I want powerful narrative-driven moments in ME: A, and they've been largely missing since ME1 (see Sovereign's speech). You know, I want some damn moments of brilliance in my games. I can see where you come from, though these particular points don't bother me at all. Sure, they are gameplay constructs -- loyalty making companions dodge a bullet or being unable to use certain weapons for no reason -- but at the end of the day that's not why I play Mass Effect or RPGs in general (why can't mages in Baldur's Gate use armor and swords? Dunno, but I don't really care). I have to agree with awrybread that ME2 had the best overall narrative even though many dislike it for its thin and ultimately inconsequential story. I'd go further and say ME2 also has the best narrative and gameplay integration. For me personally, it's the best of both (all three? or four?) worlds: a solid, if thin, main quest chain, great characters combined with the loyalty mission concept that I like very much as it gets every character a chance to shine, excellent and most varied worldbuilding of all 3 games -- Omega, Illium, Tuchanka, space prisons, garbage worlds, mercenary companies with a face, cyberpunkish artificial intelligence, interstellar spy networks, etc -- all married to very satisfying gameplay and phenomenal visual direction, easily the most stylish and atmospheric Bioware game in a long time, maybe ever. I replay the trilogy from time to time and while I love ME1, I am always reminded how... simplistic it is compared to its sequel. Sure, the story is more gripping, immediate, and epic. I'll readily agree that the reveals on Virmire and Ilos are unparalleled for its sheer narrative impact. And sure, main missions were very nicely done. But aside from that, I truly feel that the game is inferior to ME2 in almost everything else. Companions are light years ahead. The entire mission line-up (not counting main missions, of course) is parsecs ahead. Comparing ME1's almost non-existent side content that boils down to exploring dozens of same-looking prefabs to tons of well-made recruitment, loyalty, and N7 missions in ME2 is... well, there is no comparison. My own pet issue is worldbuilding. I love to get lost in it, and here ME2 is also much more rewarding. ME1 captures that lonely feeling of being lost in Uncharted Territories, and I love it for that, but the richness of worlds, themes, and ideas brought to the table by ME2 is more fulfilling, to me at least. I'm not crapping all over ME1, don't take me wrong; I love the entire trilogy. But so often when people praise the first game, they mention Sovereign on Virmire, Prothean VI on Ilos and a handful of similar moments and skip the frankly underwhelming side content. In the meanwhile, when I immerse myself into ME2, I love almost everything (yeah, aside from planet scanning  ): the oppressive gang-noir beauty of Omega (man, the missions there are soooo good), fantastic sense of place and atmosphere when I reach Illium, the ruined toxic wasteland that is Tuchanka, awesome hivelike interiors of Collector tech... But it's not only the worldbuilding that gets me. It's the moments like getting Jack to open up during the romance, meeting Thane atop the tower -- that art direction with the setting sun, Blade Runner shivers...  -- standing up for Tali on the Migrant Fleet, talking to Mordin during his loyalty mission and seeing his Salarian "armor" just melting away as he's confronted with the undeniable horror of the genophage, or approaching the end of Overlord and seeing for the first time what or who the rogue AI really is... Nothing in ME1 comes even close to capturing the intimacy and subtlety of these character moments.  |
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): the oppressive gang-noir beauty of Omega (man, the missions there are soooo good), fantastic sense of place and atmosphere when I reach Illium, the ruined toxic wasteland that is Tuchanka, awesome hivelike interiors of Collector tech... 
-- standing up for Tali on the Migrant Fleet, talking to Mordin during his loyalty mission and seeing his Salarian "armor" just melting away as he's confronted with the undeniable horror of the genophage, or approaching the end of Overlord and seeing for the first time what or who the rogue AI really is... Nothing in ME1 comes even close to capturing the intimacy and subtlety of these character moments. 