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Post by lastpawn on Jan 21, 2017 13:20:45 GMT
Edited with thoughts on recent reverse trilogy replay.
Join me while I meander on about why I remain somewhat optimistic about Andromeda, yet cautions enough to wait to purchase the game. It takes a bit for me to get to the point, so, you know, sorry: look elsewhere if attention is an issue.
I strongly believe that Mass Effect needs a creative leader who can do something with the narrative. Chris Schlerf, the guy who wrote Andromeda narrative, isn't exactly a proven quantity in my book. Nor am I very confident of Mac Walters, the creative director of Andromeda, after what he did with ME3 endings. So here's to hoping the game will turn out to be good, and caution that it may just be alright.
Why? I've been replaying the trilogy in reverse chronological order, and have some thoughts to share...
I won't harp on Mass Effect 3 endings. I will say, however, that aside from the endings the game felt rushed, starting from a rather weak opening to stuff like Diana Allers (really?), to day-one Javik, to humans apparently making up half the enemy forces, to Kai Leng's heavy-handed plot armor... It's hard to look at Citadel DLC and not feel like, well, this bonding sort of stuff is what the writers probably wanted to focus on. Instead we got a game that started with Reapers effectively winning (if we consider ME1's plot), so we needed a literal deus ex machina to save us. Perhaps a small-team cover shooter isn't the best vehicle to explore waging and winning an all-out-galactic war.
ME3 had its moments, namely genophage and geth arcs, Thane's death (not the fight), final goodbyes.
Mass Effect 2 is a highly polished team-building simulator. You meet some cool people, help them get over their problems, and generally hang out with them while shooting bad guys. The entire game is built around building a roster of colorful squadmates and ignoring the fact that most of what you're doing makes no sense. Even some of the recruit choices are nonsensical. Why do we need the Best Assassin in the Galaxy? Assassination is a very specific task that we have no need for... Oh right, because he's cool. Why do we need the Best Thief in the Galaxy? We're not trying to rob the Collectors. Oh, right, because she's cool. We need them because them's the orders, and in ME2, we do what TIM tells us. If course, you always do what the game tells you to do -- that's the nature of video games. But in ME2 this is pushed to an extreme: don't worry about whether what you're doing makes sense, simply trust the writers to get you somewhere, and enjoy these interesting characters in the meantime.
I do still enjoy ME2 a great deal, but having just replayed it I cannot shake the feeling that it's an amalgam of some of the best writing Bioware has done (e.g., Mordin Solus, Legion, etc.) and some of the worst (e.g., everyone's made to look comically stupid -- "Reapers" -- so that working with Cerebrus makes sense).
First game. Well, I fell for Mass Effect 1 quite hard, replaying it perhaps 3 times when it initially came out. It was the imagination that got me. A completely new sci-fi IP that made sense. I can't even imagine how hard that must have been. What got me even more were moments of sheer brilliance interspersed throughout the game. Some of these moments: talking to Sovereign on Virmire, worldbuilding via talking to "ordinary" people on various hub worlds, Wrex arc, and even the well-done "romance," at least for the time. I like that the game allowed you to be something of a racist while still forcing you to have at least one alien member on your team. I like that it had an introverted main character, Liara. ME1 version of Liara is the only quiet, introspective character across all three games.
Replaying ME1 after ME3 and ME2 really juxtaposes the differences between these games. Gameplay-wise, for me at least, ME1 is more interesting but clunky. I hate to use that word, but there it is. The variety of enemies is interesting, as is the fact that they can use their powers on you -- it's just that the combat itself is clunky and never feels as satisfying as biotic charge + shotgun to the face. I've also come around to appreciate the inventory system of ME3 more than ME1, which was not the case initially. But what's most striking, at least for me, is how fresh the narrative of ME1 feels. Mako memes aside, there's a real sense of freedom and exploration there.
Bonus: Dragon Age: Inquisition. You see, I liked this game, I think. But I also cannot for the life of me remember what the plot was. I remember I got to build up some old castle and I think I amassed an army to do... something? Seal a really big gap I guess? I also hunted Dragons. So this being the latest Bioware game doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence.
Having talked about all that, let's get to the point rather abruptly: the team at Bioware is obviously full of creative people who can make interesting characters. But of all these games, only ME1 had anything close to a compelling NARRATIVE. That's not to say that ME1 was the best game, but narratives are important. I'd like to think that this is, at least in part, because ME1 was the first. And Andromeda is, in some ways, also first. That being the case, hopefully, writers won't need too many contrivances, and can just, you know, make a good game on all fronts. I assume the characters in Andromeda will be interesting and possibly memorable, I assume the gameplay will be at least adequate and possibly fun. But the narrative. How will it all hold together? Why is Ryder doing all of this? And on that account, I'm cautious.
There's an interesting kink in all of this. Drew Karpyshyn, who was behind most of ME1 and co-director on ME2, is back at Bioware. I think it's fair to say he's the person responsible for many moments of brilliance, like Sovereign's speech. Seriously, look it up and tell me that isn't sheer goddamn brilliance... In short, this guy is responsible for why I love Mass Effect as much as anyone. If Karpyshyn was involved with Andromeda, I'd preorder without hesitation. Hell, I'd get the fancy version with all the whistles. Because brilliance should be rewarded. Since he is not involved with Andromeda, I'll wait for reviews and, more importantly, fan feedback.
So there you go. Some reasons I have to be optimistic, others to be cautious.
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Post by unclee on Jan 21, 2017 13:33:52 GMT
Karpyshyn is down at Bioware Austin though, so he's unlikely to be involved much (if any) with Mass Effect. Did anyone from Bioware Austin assist with DA:I? I'm pretty sure that studio is exclusively for TOR. It'd be different if he'd have gone to the Montreal studio (since the two Canadian studios collaborate quite often) but I'm not sure him re-joining the TOR team will signify his involvement with Mass Effect going forward.
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lastpawn
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Post by lastpawn on Jan 21, 2017 14:52:43 GMT
Yeah, I know he's at the Austin branch and thus unlikely to have anything to do with ME or DA for that matter. It's just an odd thing. Even if Andromeda turns out to be amazing, the guy who wrote it is working elsewhere now, so there's no guarantee that Andromeda 2 will be good.
There are only a few very good writers or visionaries working in video games -- obviously, when you look at scripts or consider the narratives of most games. So when I look at a game, I don't think "Oh Bioware is making this game" anymore than I think "Oh, Universal Studios is making this movie." I always think, who's the director, who are the writers?
So mostly I'm surprised that people like Karpyshyn have very little recognition for the very great things they've done, both from fans and, I think, from the companies that hire them.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 21, 2017 15:09:11 GMT
I get what you're talking about with DA:I, in part because you had no "main character" in way we had with Shepard. You had "the Inquisitor" who could be from different races and genders. And while each of those choices opened or closed different paths, there was still (in my opinion) no real strong lead character.
I think this will be different with ME:A. We play as either Scott or Sara Ryder (or whatever you name them) and both characters exist within the game regardless. I imagine we'll be able to fiddle with backstory a little bit but Ryder will still be a real lead character.
I hear plenty about the writers but I played this games for the first time back-to-back early last year. I wasn't paying attention to anyone came and went on the writing team so I have no real feel for anyone. That said, I'm going into ME:A optimistic. I suspect I'll enjoy the game, as I did the trilogy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 15:14:27 GMT
Drew Karpyshyyn is probably the best writer that has ever worked at Bioware, and he has written som excellent books aswell. Its weird, but i feel like he made Star Wars better than what is has ever been under Lucas and now Disney.
Maybe he is free to do Mass Effect again now that Swtor's main story sort of ended. I am assuming he wrote the main villain for the latest expansions as he started that story all the way back in Kotor.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 15:24:56 GMT
Yeah, I know he's at the Austin branch and thus unlikely to have anything to do with ME or DA for that matter. It's just an odd thing. Even if Andromeda turns out to be amazing, the guy who wrote it is working elsewhere now, so there's no guarantee that Andromeda 2 will be good. There are only a few very good writers or visionaries working in video games -- obviously, when you look at scripts or consider the narratives of most games. So when I look at a game, I don't think "Oh Bioware is making this game" anymore than I think "Oh, Universal Studios is making this movie." I always think, who's the director, who are the writers? So mostly I'm surprised that people like Karpyshyn have very little recognition for the very great things they've done, both from fans and, I think, from the companies that hire them. If Andromeda does turn out to be amazing, I just hope that some people on this site will get off their ever-loving praise train for L'Etoile and Karpyshyn and stop dumping on Walters for the ME3 endings. After 4 years of it and thread after thread that thinks it's being coy but really just laying it on again... it's really gotten tiresome. However, I have essentially no faith in that happening even if Mac, by chance, proves he has learned some lessons over the years. I speculate that people here won't ever let up on the criticism he receives here daily; and I speculate that they'll absolutely cherry-pick Andromeda to shreds to find things just to support their ongoing grudge against Mac. In truth, they've already being doing a fair bit of cherry-picking based purely on their own speculation about every little detail released so far on the game... and there haven't been many details released yet. People here are like piranha... just circling about waiting for a tiny drop of info to hit so they can start a feeding frenzy. While some people will probably go on about my "complaining about complaining" and their right to criticize; I honestly think this is a fair criticism of an obvious trend on this website. As proof of my claims... I submit that you don't have to look very hard through the list of threads in the ME Trilogy section to find several dumping on Mac and overtly praising both L'Etoile and Karpyshyn, along with several others that directly criticize the ME3 endings at great length. Call me cynical, but I honestly think people here have also fairly earned my skepticism about their changing their tune even if, as I said, it turns out that Andromeda is amazing. I also believe that somewhere way back when, Bioware indicated that Austin was indeed helping with some of the aspects of ME:A... something along the lines that all their studios have some involvement in various parts of the development. I don't say that this necessarily indicates involvement by Karpyshyn... but it could.
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Post by fredvdp on Jan 21, 2017 16:00:13 GMT
Karpyshyn is down at Bioware Austin though, so he's unlikely to be involved much (if any) with Mass Effect. Did anyone from Bioware Austin assist with DA:I? I'm pretty sure that studio is exclusively for TOR. All BioWare studios contributed in some way. ( Source) The Austin studio worked on the now cancelled game Shadow Realms and I'm quite sure they also made The Descent DLC, so they're not exclusively SWTOR anymore.
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Post by derrame on Jan 21, 2017 16:13:22 GMT
i really wanted Karpyshyn to write Andromeda or at least part of it, ME1 and 2 are sooo good
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Post by lastpawn on Jan 21, 2017 16:26:42 GMT
Yeah, I know he's at the Austin branch and thus unlikely to have anything to do with ME or DA for that matter. It's just an odd thing. Even if Andromeda turns out to be amazing, the guy who wrote it is working elsewhere now, so there's no guarantee that Andromeda 2 will be good. There are only a few very good writers or visionaries working in video games -- obviously, when you look at scripts or consider the narratives of most games. So when I look at a game, I don't think "Oh Bioware is making this game" anymore than I think "Oh, Universal Studios is making this movie." I always think, who's the director, who are the writers? So mostly I'm surprised that people like Karpyshyn have very little recognition for the very great things they've done, both from fans and, I think, from the companies that hire them. If Andromeda does turn out to be amazing, I just hope that some people on this site will get off their ever-loving praise train for L'Etoile and Karpyshyn and stop dumping on Walters for the ME3 endings... Let me go on record by saying that if Andromeda does turn out to be amazing, I'll remember to be appreciative of everyone involved, including Walters. I don't spend my days here so have no idea whether he receives criticism "daily" or not. In fact this was my first post on a Bioware forum in the last 2 years. My point is that I have a high opinion of Karpyshyn and having him on the team would have significantly boosted my confidence. As it is, I'm taking the wait and see approach. I certainly hope it'll be amazing.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jan 21, 2017 16:30:41 GMT
Yeah, I know he's at the Austin branch and thus unlikely to have anything to do with ME or DA for that matter. It's just an odd thing. Even if Andromeda turns out to be amazing, the guy who wrote it is working elsewhere now, so there's no guarantee that Andromeda 2 will be good. There are only a few very good writers or visionaries working in video games -- obviously, when you look at scripts or consider the narratives of most games. So when I look at a game, I don't think "Oh Bioware is making this game" anymore than I think "Oh, Universal Studios is making this movie." I always think, who's the director, who are the writers? So mostly I'm surprised that people like Karpyshyn have very little recognition for the very great things they've done, both from fans and, I think, from the companies that hire them. If Andromeda does turn out to be amazing, I just hope that some people on this site will get off their ever-loving praise train for L'Etoile and Karpyshyn and stop dumping on Walters for the ME3 endings. After 4 years of it and thread after thread that thinks it's being coy but really just laying it on again... it's really gotten tiresome. However, I have essentially no faith in that happening even if Mac, by chance, proves he has learned some lessons over the years. I speculate that people here won't ever let up on the criticism he receives here daily; and I speculate that they'll absolutely cherry-pick Andromeda to shreds to find things just to support their ongoing grudge against Mac. In truth, they've already being doing a fair bit of cherry-picking based purely on their own speculation about every little detail released so far on the game... and there haven't been many details released yet. People here are like piranha... just circling about waiting for a tiny drop of info to hit so they can start a feeding frenzy. While some people will probably go on about my "complaining about complaining" and their right to criticize; I honestly think this is a fair criticism of an obvious trend on this website. As proof of my claims... I submit that you don't have to look very hard through the list of threads in the ME Trilogy section to find several dumping on Mac and overtly praising both L'Etoile and Karpyshyn, along with several others that directly criticize the ME3 endings at great length. Call me cynical, but I honestly think people here have also fairly earned my skepticism about their changing their tune even if, as I said, it turns out that Andromeda is amazing. I also believe that somewhere way back when, Bioware indicated that Austin was indeed helping with some of the aspects of ME:A... something along the lines that all their studios has some involvement in various parts of the development. I don't say that this necessarily indicates involvement by Karpyshyn... but it could. I have to agree that while Walters does rightly deserve some the complaints but you almost never hear anything against Karpyshyn so here is a couple of mine from ME1. 1) Tali. In ME1 Tali is simply boring, on the ship she is just a massive exposition dump for the quarians and the geth, there were times when playing I was literally fighting off sleepiness due to constantly going on and on and on about those aspects. Liara and Wrex also suffers from both are saved by good voice acting and the best romance option BioWare has ever had with FemShep and Liara this and a loyalty mission that makes Wrex open up and we learn that he's more than a just a standard dumb thug character. Ash and Kaiden become the same character after Virmire, (and they never really come apart until after the coup attempt in ME3 maybe). 2) Saren. Is Saren a great villain? Yes, but a lot of that comes from the first novel and the second comic book series. In game he's barely there and once the player learns about Sovereign he's reduced to a that of third string minion character like the Decepticon Shockwave, hell if weren't for the fact that you can talk him into committing suicide he's been even less remarkable. 3) Matriarch Beneiza. Her character is so vague to be almost non-existent, she's Liara's mother, and what else again in ME1?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 16:47:07 GMT
If Andromeda does turn out to be amazing, I just hope that some people on this site will get off their ever-loving praise train for L'Etoile and Karpyshyn and stop dumping on Walters for the ME3 endings... Let me go on record by saying that if Andromeda does turn out to be amazing, I'll remember to be appreciative of everyone involved, including Walters. I don't spend my days here so have no idea whether he receives criticism "daily" or not. In fact this was my first post on a Bioware forum in the last 2 years. My point is that I have a high opinion of Karpyshyn and having him on the team would have significantly boosted my confidence. As it is, I'm taking the wait and see approach. I certainly hope it'll be amazing. Understood and I will say welcome to these forums. We're really not such a bad group. If ME:A is amazing... I will hold you to that promise, OK? I do have every expectation, at this point, of ME:A being at least a reasonably good game and it certainly has a lot of potential to be a great game. I don't consider myself to be overtly hyped about it. I have absolutely thoroughly enjoyed the ME Trilogy, including the endings, and have replayed it (in its entirety) now probably in excess of 25 times (and probably many many times that going back over bits and pieces of it with my different Shepards). I have not been able to get into any of the Dragon Age games at all. I'm just not into games focused in that sort medieval era with mages and elves and such... and the same goes for the Witcher as a result. I didn't even enjoy Lord of the Rings all that much.
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 21, 2017 17:18:08 GMT
The problem is the writing on Mass Effect 1 was still done by a team it was just Karpshyn that was the lead of the people that wrote the game so there is no guarantee it will be the same, for his work on The Old Republic when the game was in development isn't up to the same level as Mass Effect 1 either. I think too many people are assigning all the credit to one person where there were several that were working together to make it work.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 21, 2017 21:42:46 GMT
DA:I for me was a case of recognizing the faults of the narrative as they were happening in plain sight, which was soooo frustrating.
I think there are really issues from the get-go but none that can't be handwaved away so I didn't have a problem and I was generally intrigued at first. The first point when the record broke for me was that upon launching the In Your Heart Shall Burn quest (otherwise amazing) it just skips straight to closing the Breach with no combat (fine, I guess we did traverse that mountain once before, but what about the demons spawned since then??) but then... you just... close it? WHAT? That was just the big dramatic motivator we just removed. Gone is all the tension and replaced with Corypheus - the man behind the Breach - but aside from a rather generic first-encounter (where he doesn't succeed with anything, mind you!) all you get for the rest of the game is people talking about him nonstop. "Oh Corypheus this, Corypheus that! We really have to stop him, otherwise he will destroy the world!" but all you know is "He will find some way to create another pathway into the raw fade" but unlike ME1 where you know Saren will succeed with using the Conduit, you don't know anything about Corypheus's real plan aside from trying to disrupt the political meetings in Orlais or doing "something" with The Wardens until the near-end mission which shows us what he's planning... and once again he fucks up and instead of some point of no return you just attack him head on in the finale in some generic one-sided bossfight with nothing at stake really. He contrivedly opens up a new Breach, you have no idea how he does that, it just happens with zero buildup and "go fight him lol" and nevermind the big Fort you spent the entire game building and manning with alliances.
The game just had a super vague plot that missed every opportunity it had to make things interesting. At best the game has a great examination of what faith is, but that's really all it had I felt. The role of the Inquisitor was painfully weak. Way too overpowered and they are too quick to take him from the "potential suspect who might've been behind everything!" to "Oh, the savior, make this guy the leader of our Inquisition".
Yeah, ME1 was actually rather similar in structure but it was just a waay better plot because everything came together more organically and it also allowed you to make a 15-hour run where you actually spend all the time hunting Saren instead of derailing the focus of the main plot on irrelevant side-quests, and the side-quests in ME1 mostly all feel like pieces of world-building that are designed around showing you aspects of the setting whereas in DA:I there's a lot of gameplay elements with stories designed around them that amount to less substance.
On the other hand ME1 has a lot of blatant plot-devices driving everything. It really feels like "Ancient artifact A takes protagonist and antagonist to Super duper important Ancient artifact B and then C" and luckily they explain these "devices" by making them part of the myth of the Protheans but they're still just these kind of cheap disposable plot-elements that make arbitrary goalposts for the narrative to drive towards and the characters are obsessed with them without knowing their purpose, but along the way it all unfolds a higher sense of purpose because the Reapers create such an ingenious context for the Mass Effect Universe and the science fiction of the plot (the idea of god-machines creating our society -- "There's always something more alien and unknown out there the further you get." Lovecraft-meets-Matrix -- ingenious!) and as any good story the journey these plot-devices lead us through reveals all the meat of the setting and its themes (Aliens, humanity in space, biotics, synthetics vs organics, love, xenophobia, faith etc.)
I think if DA:I had been less vague it would've been great, and if it allowed the companions to have more substantial highlights of the themes. Dorian being the representation of a Tevinter rebel was great... until his companion plot turned into this super ordianry "Father won't let me be homosexual, please talk to him for me Player1!!". It felt more like addressing the theme of homosexual oppression issues IRL than an in-universe addressing of the subject and Tevinter society was the same. It was more allegory than it was applicability.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 22:52:32 GMT
The problem is the writing on Mass Effect 1 was still done by a team it was just Karpshyn that was the lead of the people that wrote the game so there is no guarantee it will be the same, for his work on The Old Republic when the game was in development isn't up to the same level as Mass Effect 1 either. I think too many people are assigning all the credit to one person where there were several that were working together to make it work. Actually if you check Drew's twitter (yes i have no life) you'll see some guy thanking him for Jolee Bindo in Kotor. His reply is - "Thanks, but i didn't write Jolee, it was Lukas Kristansjon, the whole writing team was amazing." So he was lead on those projects, but he gives cred to the team, as he should. I will also agree that a lot of ToR doesn't hold up to his earlier work, but it was a new team a lot of new writers, an mmo that had to tell a story. Way to many issues for them to handle.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 23:50:35 GMT
One thing that we resolutely know Karpyshyn did write himself, Revelations, Ascenion and Retribution, are books with good narratives, good characters, but sometimes some questionable writing choices, like describing a shot leg as looking like hamburger *cringes* Drew and others have done some great stuff, but they do get overpraised, and Mac Walters overcriticised, to the point discussions on the writing don't become discussions just back and forths of this guys good, this guys bad, and the same axe being grinded. I hope that when Andromeda comes out, we don't get a picking apart of the narrative like a full blown anatomy, just to fuel people's hate trains against Mac and the ME3 endings. Cause any gripe with Andromeda or anything somehow always manages to lead back to the ME3 endings
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 0:44:55 GMT
I have to say that I largely disagree with your post. I think Drew Karpyshyn is massively overrated considering that the ME1 plot is incredibly simple and full of contrivances that people don't want to mention, such as the very rapid gathering of alien squadmembers who join up on the Citadel (Garrus 'cuz hardcore justice seeker, Wrex 'cuz merc, Tali 'cuz... why?), the leaving of Liara (the daughter of an apparent terrorist) on the Normandy, a stealth warship, and the fact that Saren could have, I dunno, just kept his Spectre status and walked into the Presidium and transferred control of the station to Sovereign that way?
Now, granted, Mass Effect was written by a team and so Drew doesn't get all the positive or negative credit, but I feel that speaking as though the original Mass Effect was some exemplary example of writing is incorrect. Drew wrote some okay things and the first game largely worked because of its style and aesthetic, which appealed to sci-fi fans nostalgic for 70s shows and flicks. It's plot is really basic and really okay. Not bad, but just okay. So Drew being on the game or off the game doesn't change much to me. Mac Walters did fine for the most part excluding the endings, and we're unlikely to ever get a straight answer regarding how much of that was Casey or Mac's fault or if it was both of them.
I actually felt that ME2 had the best overall narrative. It's simple, direct, and clear from the first mission beyond the tutorial. ME2 has its problems but its narrative is the least cluttered, especially considering that each game was built independently of each other without much planning in between.
Dragon Age Inquisition was actually a fine game by my book. I feel like I'm in the minority sometimes but I really liked Inquisition's narrative and also felt that it was clear enough and had compelling themes that I could build my character around; I hadn't played an RPG where whether my PC was religious or not played a central role so that was a neat mix. The Inquisitor certainly had moments of blandness but honestly Origins had the blandest NPC just because of a lack of voice actor so it wasn't a problem for me.
I guess so far all I've been doing is countering your opinions and finding that I disagree with them. So my main point is that I feel that this post and many others on this site tend to view the original Mass Effect with these extremely large rose-colored glasses and it might do well to remember its actual quality when comparing it to an unreleased game that we've seen less than twenty minutes of so far. ME1 isn't some gem. Drew isn't that great. Since we know nothing about Andromeda's narrative speculating that it will be worse than Mass Effect 1's simple, sloppy one is jumping the gun a little bit.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 22, 2017 11:35:32 GMT
Karpyshyn is down at Bioware Austin though, so he's unlikely to be involved much (if any) with Mass Effect. Did anyone from Bioware Austin assist with DA:I? I'm pretty sure that studio is exclusively for TOR. All BioWare studios contributed in some way. ( Source) The Austin studio worked on the now cancelled game Shadow Realms and I'm quite sure they also made The Descent DLC, so they're not exclusively SWTOR anymore. I thought too that Drew migtve worked on Andromeda since Austin has, but I asked on Twitter and he responded with a firm no - he is not involved but some of his cowriters from Austin were. My guess is he isn't interested in going back to Mass Effect as a game franchise. He did however tell me that he wants to write the screenplay for the movie if he has the chance to do so. However, BW Austin is working on a new game of some sort and Drew is lead writer on that I think.
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Post by isaidlunch on Jan 22, 2017 12:11:49 GMT
There's an interesting kink in all of this. Drew Karpyshyn, who was the creative director of ME1 and co-director on ME2, is back at Bioware. I think it's fair to say he's the person responsible for many moments of brilliance, like Sovereign's speech, which is one of the best video game speeches ever made. Seriously, look it up and tell me that isn't sheer goddamn brilliance... or compare Sovereign's chilling, absolute control to Harbinger's adequate but unremarkable lines. I'd say that Sovereign's speech has some of the worst writing in the series and that Shepard's responses are especially awful. Why is Sovereign even talking to us? Why is it giving away information to an enemy? Why is it revealing what it is? Why does it go straight to threatening us? It apparently had some interesting things to say to Saren, but instead we just get nonsense spouted at us about how it's too deep for us to understand. ME1's plot is full of nonsense and Sovereign's speech is no different. He may be good at creating a setting and shocking(!) plot twists but that's it. If he wrote Noveria and Feros then I'll give him kudos for that too. But every main plot he's written has been a dud, every book he's written has been a dud, anything he's written in relation to SWTOR has been juvenile garbage, and his character writing is among some of the worst in Bioware history (ME1 Liara and Tali). He also seems to have no respect for other writers, considering how much he ripped off and then trampled on Kotor 2. I'll never understand why people like his writing and I'll gladly take Walters over him any day of the week.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 12:41:00 GMT
All BioWare studios contributed in some way. ( Source) The Austin studio worked on the now cancelled game Shadow Realms and I'm quite sure they also made The Descent DLC, so they're not exclusively SWTOR anymore. I thought too that Drew migtve worked on Andromeda since Austin has, but I asked on Twitter and he responded with a firm no - he is not involved but some of his cowriters from Austin were. My guess is he isn't interested in going back to Mass Effect as a game franchise. He did however tell me that he wants to write the screenplay for the movie if he has the chance to do so. However, BW Austin is working on a new game of some sort and Drew is lead writer on that I think. There is a difference though between formally "working on" something and informally bantering about ideas with the team that is/was working on it. It could still be that he has had some input even without actually working on it. While you seem to really work at singling out individual writers, the reality is that these games are produced by writing teams. They don't work completely independently of each other... if they do all try to just work independently of each other, it just doesn't work at all.
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Post by javeart on Jan 22, 2017 12:55:48 GMT
I'm not particularly impressed by Karpyshyn's writting tbh. Apparently people like Revelations a lot, and I cannot judge the quality of the writting itself because I read it in english, but I can say that I found it utterly boring and I was eager to read anything about Mass Effect when I picked it up, my predisposition could not have been better. It kept me from reading anything else from Mass Effect to this day. Also I never found any of his characters particularly appealing (I still can't believe that based on ME1 people was asking for Tali to be a LI ). I don't see a huge difference between ME1's writting quality and that from the other games either. So, all in all, I'm not inclined to say I'm sorry he's not involved, and I think I could say that I'm even happy that he's not writting any character The thing is I don't know much about Walter's writting: aside from the endings, what else is his? I think he wrote Garrus in ME2 and Vegas in ME3? Wrex too, in ME1 and ME2? I think he also wrote TIM in ME2? I love Garrus and TIM, so that speaks in his favour for me. What else do we know is written by him?
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Post by fredvdp on Jan 22, 2017 13:57:43 GMT
All BioWare studios contributed in some way. ( Source) The Austin studio worked on the now cancelled game Shadow Realms and I'm quite sure they also made The Descent DLC, so they're not exclusively SWTOR anymore. I thought too that Drew migtve worked on Andromeda since Austin has, but I asked on Twitter and he responded with a firm no - he is not involved but some of his cowriters from Austin were. My guess is he isn't interested in going back to Mass Effect as a game franchise. He did however tell me that he wants to write the screenplay for the movie if he has the chance to do so. However, BW Austin is working on a new game of some sort and Drew is lead writer on that I think. The core group is in Montreal so I expect Austin and Edmonton to have a similar role that Montreal had in ME2 and ME3: Side missions and multiplayer.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jan 22, 2017 14:28:09 GMT
Karpyshyn killed Revan in the cheesiest fucking way imaginable.
He should keep it to short stories, his novels are bad.
In short, I disagree that Drew K helps things.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 22, 2017 21:00:32 GMT
Karpyshyn killed Revan in the cheesiest fucking way imaginable. He should keep it to short stories, his novels are bad. In short, I disagree that Drew K helps things. He is honestly hit and miss and his companion characters in ME1; liara and Tali were both pretty boring. It's probably safe to sat that in the end ME1 was as good as it was for the combination of talent hitting the right spots than any one creative influence but I still have the impression that Drew is one of the most resilient writers. I can't imagine Walters write a novel.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 22, 2017 21:15:26 GMT
I thought too that Drew migtve worked on Andromeda since Austin has, but I asked on Twitter and he responded with a firm no - he is not involved but some of his cowriters from Austin were. My guess is he isn't interested in going back to Mass Effect as a game franchise. He did however tell me that he wants to write the screenplay for the movie if he has the chance to do so. However, BW Austin is working on a new game of some sort and Drew is lead writer on that I think. There is a difference though between formally "working on" something and informally bantering about ideas with the team that is/was working on it. It could still be that he has had some input even without actually working on it. While you seem to really work at singling out individual writers, the reality is that these games are produced by writing teams. They don't work completely independently of each other... if they do all try to just work independently of each other, it just doesn't work at all. I would believe this if it wasn't for those stories of "higher-paid" authority or "leads meetings"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 21:57:08 GMT
There is a difference though between formally "working on" something and informally bantering about ideas with the team that is/was working on it. It could still be that he has had some input even without actually working on it. While you seem to really work at singling out individual writers, the reality is that these games are produced by writing teams. They don't work completely independently of each other... if they do all try to just work independently of each other, it just doesn't work at all. I would believe this if it wasn't for those stories of "higher-paid" authority or "leads meetings" ... and remember what I said when we first started talking about that statement... that it made me think that particular individual who made that statement wasn't much of a team player. He made public a complaint about another member of the team... it could be valid (maybe some people on that team were overly dictatorial) or it could just be a vindictive statement made by a disgruntled employee who didn't get his individual way. A sailing ship needs its crew, not just to man their individual rope, but also to work in rhythm with each other, to watch each others backs and provide the captain with some input if they spot a shoal ahead... but only one person really should be trying to man the wheel at a time. When push comes to shove, it is the duty of those "higher paids" to decide where to steer the ship.
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