Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
2543
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:28:58 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:28:58 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2017 11:50:42 GMT
On ME2. I can appreciate the simplicity of ME2's narrative, in the sense that the plot is quite straightforward, but let's look at narrative more broadly. It starts with Shepard dying because... because...? Because gameplay reasons of course. Liara and VS don't join you because... gameplay reasons. Every single member in your team has to go on some sort of quest where they like you more. Exactly one quest. For each member. And the level of their loyalty will enable them to (e.g.) dodge or take a rocket to their face during the suicide mission? That makes no sense: loyalty shouldn't make you better or worse at self-preservation, like moving your face out of the way of an incoming rocket. So why is it like that for every. single. companion? Gameplay reasons. It's a checklist game, and that's not simplicity, as far as I'm concerned. And checklists yank me out of the game. To go on a bit of a rant about ME2... Weapons were class restricted, right? And you think, Oh, OK, I guess Shepard just didn't have that sort of weapon training? But then at one point Shepard literally just bends down and picks up a new weapon type and it's all good. How does this fit into the narrative? Shepard was just lazy? Or how do we explain ammo clips in a place where there shouldn't be any? And so on. All of this is part of the narrative as far as I'm concerned, and such moments easily yank me out of the experience. I think games, like movies, catch you by the heart rather than by your brain. I listed some problems with ME2, but I still liked that game a lot, even after the whole by-the-book-loyalty thing got on my nerves. My overall point is that I want powerful narrative-driven moments in ME: A, and they've been largely missing since ME1 (see Sovereign's speech). You know, I want some damn moments of brilliance in my games. I can see where you come from, though these particular points don't bother me at all. Sure, they are gameplay constructs -- loyalty making companions dodge a bullet or being unable to use certain weapons for no reason -- but at the end of the day that's not why I play Mass Effect or RPGs in general (why can't mages in Baldur's Gate use armor and swords? Dunno, but I don't really care). I have to agree with awrybread that ME2 had the best overall narrative even though many dislike it for its thin and ultimately inconsequential story. I'd go further and say ME2 also has the best narrative and gameplay integration. For me personally, it's the best of both (all three? or four?) worlds: a solid, if thin, main quest chain, great characters combined with the loyalty mission concept that I like very much as it gets every character a chance to shine, excellent and most varied worldbuilding of all 3 games -- Omega, Illium, Tuchanka, space prisons, garbage worlds, mercenary companies with a face, cyberpunkish artificial intelligence, interstellar spy networks, etc -- all married to very satisfying gameplay and phenomenal visual direction, easily the most stylish and atmospheric Bioware game in a long time, maybe ever. I replay the trilogy from time to time and while I love ME1, I am always reminded how... simplistic it is compared to its sequel. Sure, the story is more gripping, immediate, and epic. I'll readily agree that the reveals on Virmire and Ilos are unparalleled for its sheer narrative impact. And sure, main missions were very nicely done. But aside from that, I truly feel that the game is inferior to ME2 in almost everything else. Companions are light years ahead. The entire mission line-up (not counting main missions, of course) is parsecs ahead. Comparing ME1's almost non-existent side content that boils down to exploring dozens of same-looking prefabs to tons of well-made recruitment, loyalty, and N7 missions in ME2 is... well, there is no comparison. My own pet issue is worldbuilding. I love to get lost in it, and here ME2 is also much more rewarding. ME1 captures that lonely feeling of being lost in Uncharted Territories, and I love it for that, but the richness of worlds, themes, and ideas brought to the table by ME2 is more fulfilling, to me at least. I'm not crapping all over ME1, don't take me wrong; I love the entire trilogy. But so often when people praise the first game, they mention Sovereign on Virmire, Prothean VI on Ilos and a handful of similar moments and skip the frankly underwhelming side content. In the meanwhile, when I immerse myself into ME2, I love almost everything (yeah, aside from planet scanning  ): the oppressive gang-noir beauty of Omega (man, the missions there are soooo good), fantastic sense of place and atmosphere when I reach Illium, the ruined toxic wasteland that is Tuchanka, awesome hivelike interiors of Collector tech... But it's not only the worldbuilding that gets me. It's the moments like getting Jack to open up during the romance, meeting Thane atop the tower -- that art direction with the setting sun, Blade Runner shivers...  -- standing up for Tali on the Migrant Fleet, talking to Mordin during his loyalty mission and seeing his Salarian "armor" just melting away as he's confronted with the undeniable horror of the genophage, or approaching the end of Overlord and seeing for the first time what or who the rogue AI really is... Nothing in ME1 comes even close to capturing the intimacy and subtlety of these character moments.  Very well said. It pretty much sums it up for me. I like all 3 games pretty equally... all for different reasons... and I like that I can like them all for those differences. It means I'm not playing the same game 3 times each Trilogy, but 3 connected, but very different games each time. I like that. |
|
inherit
738
0
4,633
Link"Guess"ski
3,882
August 2016
linkenski
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Linkenski
asblinkenski
Linkenski
|
Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 25, 2017 0:25:02 GMT
ME2 is the game that made me wish we could get a Mass Effect MMO. I thought I had gotten past the phase of thinking this because MMO's suck and they're all WoW clones or just bad meme-ridden and bastardized after a few years or just "Git gud" infested, but playing through ME2 again, I still get this feeling that I wish there'd been a game like this but with more worlds like Illium and Omega and other players also traversing these hubs as aliens and humans or even synthetics and then I imagine the gunplay should be real gunplay if internet speed standards and pinging can make such scenarios work without too much lag and frustration.
ME2 has atmosphere and tons of it. I also recently discovered why this is aside from the visuals. I sometimes felt ME3 felt kind of empty in certain scenes and ME1 too. They can just feel slightly barren and as if some element is missing and then I realized that it's because ME2 had Jack Wall put together an entire ambience-OST seperate from the main music and you'll hear this sort of stuff as sublte bleepy-bubbly, synthy stuff in the background during the various recruitment- and loyalty missions between action segments when you're just conversing naturally with your friends about the situation. This downtime is also present in the other games but the ambient background themes that support this low-key atmosphere is replaced with silence and that creates a sense of emptiness. You ever get this as well? I recall there are times like TIM's office in ME3 or some of the shuttle-conversations where there's just nothing but a few background noises but no music and there's not enough within the soundscape to make it feel natural.
|
|
lastpawn
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 221 Likes: 224
inherit
2914
0
224
lastpawn
221
Jan 20, 2017 15:07:50 GMT
January 2017
lastpawn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by lastpawn on Jan 25, 2017 5:22:42 GMT
I can see where you come from, though these particular points don't bother me at all. Sure, they are gameplay constructs -- loyalty making companions dodge a bullet or being unable to use certain weapons for no reason -- but at the end of the day that's not why I play Mass Effect or RPGs in general (why can't mages in Baldur's Gate use armor and swords? Dunno, but I don't really care). ... Very well said. It pretty much sums it up for me. I like all 3 games pretty equally... all for different reasons... and I like that I can like them all for those differences. It means I'm not playing the same game 3 times each Trilogy, but 3 connected, but very different games each time. I like that. I agree with all that. We like this stuff with our hearts, not our heads. That's why we can acknowledge problems in a game while simultaneously enjoying it. Just to emphasize, I think all 3 games were enjoyable, that's why I'm here. I'd like ME:A to be a great game. |
|
Nightlife
N3
Missing the Milky Way
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 687 Likes: 602
inherit
2571
0
602
Nightlife
Missing the Milky Way
687
January 2017
nightlife
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Nightlife on Jan 25, 2017 6:02:22 GMT
ME2 is the game that made me wish we could get a Mass Effect MMO. I thought I had gotten past the phase of thinking this because MMO's suck and they're all WoW clones or just bad meme-ridden and bastardized after a few years or just "Git gud" infested, but playing through ME2 again, I still get this feeling that I wish there'd been a game like this but with more worlds like Illium and Omega and other players also traversing these hubs as aliens and humans or even synthetics and then I imagine the gunplay should be real gunplay if internet speed standards and pinging can make such scenarios work without too much lag and frustration. ME2 has atmosphere and tons of it. I also recently discovered why this is aside from the visuals. I sometimes felt ME3 felt kind of empty in certain scenes and ME1 too. They can just feel slightly barren and as if some element is missing and then I realized that it's because ME2 had Jack Wall put together an entire ambience-OST seperate from the main music and you'll hear this sort of stuff as sublte bleepy-bubbly, synthy stuff in the background during the various recruitment- and loyalty missions between action segments when you're just conversing naturally with your friends about the situation. This downtime is also present in the other games but the ambient background themes that support this low-key atmosphere is replaced with silence and that creates a sense of emptiness. You ever get this as well? I recall there are times like TIM's office in ME3 or some of the shuttle-conversations where there's just nothing but a few background noises but no music and there's not enough within the soundscape to make it feel natural. finally the mystery is solved. Yvonne Strahovski. I always wondered! *back to the topic*  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
2830
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:28:58 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:28:58 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 14:08:59 GMT
I agree with all that. We like this stuff with our hearts, not our heads. That's why we can acknowledge problems in a game while simultaneously enjoying it. Just to emphasize, I think all 3 games were enjoyable, that's why I'm here. I'd like ME:A to be a great game. Well, I personally think ME2 and 3 did have moments of brilliance. Think of the End Run, for example. Or hell, I'd say the final conversation with the Illusive Man where you either sympathize with Cerberus or go your separate ways is pretty powerful. Or Miranda's hesitance at talking to Oriana. I guess for me personally moments of brilliance can be small and personal to characters too, not just epic or concerning the overall metanarrative. But I appreciate that we disagree on this, and I see your point. I also love all three games and it just so happens that we like different ones the best. Fair enough. Ilos had the best atmosphere for a mission in all three, IMO. If only the uncharted worlds and sidequests had a sliver of that character in the first game it might have been my favorite too. It's a little early to speculate, of course, but I reckon that Andromeda will have something of a mixture of ME1/3 and 2's moments, big and small. We have a larger plot concerning the Archon and whatever mischief he's up to and the family drama that will inevitably occur when DadRyder goes missing or dead, and when your sibling isn't made Pathfinder (in fact, I suspect that the reason we have a family is for the easy drama beats). Then we have a crew that's smaller than ME2 so we can have those moments without sacrificing quality because there are 12 of them. But it'll be interesting to see where and how Bioware chooses to land its narrative punches this time around. Appreciate the discussion, by the way. |
|
Cyberstrike
N4
is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
Prime Posts: 1,732
Prime Likes: 467
Posts: 1,940 Likes: 3,176
inherit
634
0
May 14, 2017 17:50:43 GMT
3,176
Cyberstrike
is wanting to have some fun!
1,940
August 2016
cyberstrike
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
cyberstrike nTo
cyberstrike-nTo
1,732
467
|
Post by Cyberstrike on Jan 29, 2017 15:33:49 GMT
A spoiler tag just incase people don't want to read it.
The way I have read it is that basically the race that created The Reapers did it to solve a growing problem with Dark Energy and they kept harvesting races to improve their knowledge to solve the problem, its why they have waited until they brink of creating AI so they know they are intelligent enough to help solve the problem. At the very end they give Shepard the choice to sacrifice Humanity to be the final Reaper because they believe Humanity will be the "special snowflake" that is the key to solving the problem or Shepard can refuse. If Shepard refuses the galaxy is in its own to solve the problem without the Reapers.
That is at least how I remember it from what I read when it was first making waves on the Internet. I could have twisted it over the years. As far as it being a trilogy, I can't recall exactly when, but it was mentioned they planned on telling the story across three games prior or just after the launch of the first game. I don't see any developer even attempting it again for awhile since there many areas that can change during development. If what you remember is accurate, I owe Karpishin an apology (not that he Knows about it, but still). I did not care much about his books - bad (I insist - bad) amateurish cumbersome style, simple and not always consistent ideas and so on. Yet, the original idea for ME3 is so much more sane, logical and bound to previous games than what we got... Guess I will join the crowd moaning over his leave game development at that crucial point. Sorry but IMHO Drew's original endings were worse than ones we got. |
|
lastpawn
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 221 Likes: 224
inherit
2914
0
224
lastpawn
221
Jan 20, 2017 15:07:50 GMT
January 2017
lastpawn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by lastpawn on Jan 31, 2017 7:39:00 GMT
I have to say that I largely disagree with your post.... I actually felt that ME2 had the best overall narrative. It's simple, direct, and clear from the first mission beyond the tutorial. ME2 has its problems but its narrative is the least cluttered, especially considering that each game was built independently of each other without much planning in between. I initially agreed with this statement, insofar as ME2 having a direct narrative. But I've been replaying the trilogy in reverse order and, having finished ME2, I have to strongly disagree. ME2's narrative is "simple, direct, and clear" only if your goal is to fill the game with interesting, colorful characters with no regard for how much sense any of it makes. While the character missions feature some of Bioware's best ideas, the main plot, and overall narrative, is -- as far as I'm concerned -- the worst Bioware has ever made. I could go on and on about this, but I'll keep it short... 1. Everyone is stupid. The Council, the Alliance, and just about everyone is irredeemably stupid (including Shepard). They have to be, because that's the only way it makes sense for the story to work as it does. 2. The people we're collecting make no sense beyond being cool. Example: We collect an assassin. Thane is an interesting character, but he's also an assassin who works alone and clandestinely takes out specific individuals. So... who do we hiring him to assassinate? We can easily imagine Thane saying, "Who's the target, Shepard?" The collector general? The point is this: We don't know why an assassin might be useful, we're just collecting people because that's what the game told us we're supposed to do. So, best thief in the galaxy? Sure! Or how about Jack, who is a loner, unstable, and abhors our organization? Yeah, we want her on our team, too. 3. I only care about my squad. Nothing else in the game motivates me in any way. Even if we ignore the logic of it all, the game provided me with no emotional reason to care about stopping the Collectors. Yes, we know that they're abducting "hundreds of thousands" of people, and that's bad, but the game doesn't bother to introduce us to a single one. In fact, the only colonist we meet is that jerk on Horizon. I could go on, but that's not the point of this thread. To reiterate, I enjoyed playing through ME2 again. It's got a great cast of characters. Mordin Solus is one of Bioware's best. But oh boy, that plot makes no sense. On to ME1. |
|
): the oppressive gang-noir beauty of Omega (man, the missions there are soooo good), fantastic sense of place and atmosphere when I reach Illium, the ruined toxic wasteland that is Tuchanka, awesome hivelike interiors of Collector tech... 
-- standing up for Tali on the Migrant Fleet, talking to Mordin during his loyalty mission and seeing his Salarian "armor" just melting away as he's confronted with the undeniable horror of the genophage, or approaching the end of Overlord and seeing for the first time what or who the rogue AI really is... Nothing in ME1 comes even close to capturing the intimacy and subtlety of these character moments. 
