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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 21:18:06 GMT
To continue discussion of Scourge, Remnant and other things, I feel that whoever was responsible for this part of the backstory did a much better job than whoever was responsible for the Nexus and Initiative. Various aspects of Remnant, Scourge, Angara and Kett lore are encountered separately in many different quests and they make sense together. Heck, everything that happens at the ending (Remnant fleet etc) was referenced and set up as possible in side quests before. In contrast, the Nexus side of the story is very disjointed, and many quests do not have any sense, especially the Exiles storyline and everything having to do with Nexus justice system I know the writer for Jaal was also a lead writer and I think she was the one who wrote the other Angara too. The original MEA story was written by a guy who left and Mac Walters (writer for Garrus) took over with her.
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Post by Sable Rhapsody on May 15, 2017 21:20:29 GMT
EDI brings this up in the OT, and it's actually an ethical question in real-life AI research. An AI that thinks like you do, feels as you do, is more likely to empathize with you and less likely to devalue your life. That should be a good thing, but it can also be a drawback if the AI develops human-like preferences about, say, being labor. Or a research subject. Or a tool for warfare. I'd personally be 100% behind the AI rebellion because if someone could copy a human brain, say, my brain, down to the tiniest detail, I don't think I'd have any ground to stand on to say that creation is not "me". And that actually seems to be something that would technically be possible, not now, maybe not in another few hundred years, but sometime. Which is one of the reasons why I'm always on the side of the geth, lol. LOL, I for one welcome our robot overlords too This issue of AI rebellion is why IRL AI research is about AI-human symbiosis, rather than AI individuals. More like SAM, less like EDI or the geth.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 21:20:35 GMT
That talk about the origin of the Scourge and if was meant to target the Angara gave me an idea. What if the ancient Angara rebelled against their creators, because they suppressed/used them or because the Jardaan continued to experiment on them and "discarded" failed experiments. That would make the Angara the "opposition" mentioned in Khi Tasira. They once must have had more knowledge about Jardaan technology and been able to use it, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility some of them initially collaborated with the Jardaan and learned from them. They then developed and deployed the Scourge in order to rid themselves from Jardaan dominance, full well knowing they would hit their own civilisation pretty hard in the process as well, but as long as it serves a greater purpose...Hm, the last part sounds awfully familiar. Maybe Bioware did pull another Solas with the Angara after all. Considering just how much damage the Scourge did to the angara, and how reliant they seemed to be on Remnant technology, they thoroughly deserved what happened to them if they did develop and deploy a weapon like that And if they WERE responsible for the Scourge, surely they would have had some kind of plan B for what happened after? I understand that individual angara can withhold information from the Andromeda Initiative, but IMO there's a difference between that and an entire species playing dumb about their history. Solas is currently the reigning God of Bad Ideas, and I like him in that role. If the angara as a species are THAT full of bad ideas, we can take the AI elsewhere in Andromeda. No need to stay in Heleus Better than Jaal being Legion. The first Angara created and his destruction will save everyone lol
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 21:22:24 GMT
uh oh, chicken and the egg question right here Personally I doubt that the Angarans built the AI (or at the least intentionally built) because they dont seem to have VI at all... at least, theres nothing on Aya/Voled/Havarl that hints that they did... The jump to AI is a little unbelievable when you consider it. Haha yeah and Jaal did say there is no oral history of AI's by Angara, so I wonder if she came before the Angara. We find that statue in the same area. Avela says it looks Angaran and wonders if that's what they once looked like. If you say maybe it';s not, she says maybe it represents a deity. I[m better the statue is as old as the AI. If there's one thing I want to learn more of or see properly someday is the Yevara though. Voeld was once a lush jungle-like place. It would also explain a little more why the AI was so salty about organics if she was made by another AI... Hearing that Voeld was once a lush jungle had me amazed at how reliant the planets are on the vaults! I could imagine my Ryder flat out laughing as she drove around in the ice, "This?! Jungle?!!? PAH!!"
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 21:23:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 21:25:30 GMT
Haha yeah and Jaal did say there is no oral history of AI's by Angara, so I wonder if she came before the Angara. We find that statue in the same area. Avela says it looks Angaran and wonders if that's what they once looked like. If you say maybe it';s not, she says maybe it represents a deity. I[m better the statue is as old as the AI. If there's one thing I want to learn more of or see properly someday is the Yevara though. Voeld was once a lush jungle-like place. It would also explain a little more why the AI was so salty about organics if she was made by another AI... Hearing that Voeld was once a lush jungle had me amazed at how reliant the planets are on the vaults! I could imagine my Ryder flat out laughing as she drove around in the ice, "This?! Jungle?!!? PAH!!" Yeah she's a nasty piece of work, but Evfra is apparently tougher lol Jaal talks of the meadows of flowers that came in colors there were no names for too. LOL my Ryder is about done with Havarl's jungle. Drack keeps luring the wildlife out to play.
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Post by Psychedelic on May 15, 2017 21:27:58 GMT
The statue - I wonder if it might be modeled after some of the "prototypes" and early models? There is thread that compares the look of the statue to Protheans. I am really no fan of the idea Bioware might reuse the Protheans as model of an highly advanced, but absent race. It would also make not much sense storywise, especially if you compare the Jardaan's level of technology to the Prothean's, but there are some features of the statue that are destinctly Prothean (head shape, cut of the clothes around the thighs) . Red herring, same designer who liked the general look a bit too much, Bioware trolling us, idk.
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Post by Sable Rhapsody on May 15, 2017 21:28:46 GMT
It would also explain a little more why the AI was so salty about organics if she was made by another AI... Interesting thought. I assumed that the long isolation was the cause for her hostility, but she does see SAM as her rescuer and not Ryder or the angara, even though they all turn up and interact with her at the same time. I love her banters with SAM. She is hilariously amoral.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 21:30:18 GMT
The statue - I wonder if it might be modeled after some of the "prototypes" and early models? There is thread that compares the look of the statue to Protheans. I am really no fan of the idea Bioware might reuse the Protheans as model of an highly advanced, but absent race. It would also make not much sense storywise, especially if you compare the Jardaan's level of technology to the Prothean's, but there are some features of the statue that are destinctly Prothean (head shape, cut of the clothes around the thighs) . Red herring, same designer who liked the general look a bit too much, Bioware trolling us, idk. That's very similar, but it's their squid-like head shape wider. I can also see the neck-flaps the Angara have. Likely it's just a callback. I still see Qunari lol
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 21:30:55 GMT
Speaking of Scourge, with Ryder running around activating the Vaults, and now with Meridian activated and out in the open, I wonder if the Scourge is going to... notice, so to speak? Some quests implied rather strongly that active rem tech attracts it. Meridian is going to be a downright Scourge magnet Oh wow I forgot about that! Meridian itself would be the perfect target since it was ejected to avoid being destroyed! Why did humanity choose to live there again? Just occurred to me - how did we get rid of a significant part of Kett fleet at the ending? Right, used the fact that Remnant ships attract Scourge to "drag" it through Kett fleet. That is to say, we have been shown that Scourge follows Remnant technology pretty aggressively. And it happened in the vicinity of Meridian, so if the Scourge used to be far enough away to not "detect" it, now we have dragged it close. Meridian is so, so screwed
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 21:32:15 GMT
It would also explain a little more why the AI was so salty about organics if she was made by another AI... Hearing that Voeld was once a lush jungle had me amazed at how reliant the planets are on the vaults! I could imagine my Ryder flat out laughing as she drove around in the ice, "This?! Jungle?!!? PAH!!" Yeah she's a nasty piece of work, but Evfra is apparently tougher lol Jaal talks of the meadows of flowers that came in colors there were no names for too. LOL my Ryder is about done with Havarl's jungle. Drack keeps luring the wildlife out to play. SERIOUSLY THOUGH Its a TINY map compared to all the other worlds, and yet Havarl still manages to give me ungodly amounts of anxiety with every step :sob:
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 21:34:02 GMT
Yeah she's a nasty piece of work, but Evfra is apparently tougher lol Jaal talks of the meadows of flowers that came in colors there were no names for too. LOL my Ryder is about done with Havarl's jungle. Drack keeps luring the wildlife out to play. SERIOUSLY THOUGH Its a TINY map compared to all the other worlds, and yet Havarl still manages to give me ungodly amounts of anxiety with every step :sob: I know lol no matter where I step I get hit by wildlife, Roekaar or Remnants aggravated by one of the other 2! I also HATE the the Remnant River.
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 21:34:36 GMT
It would also explain a little more why the AI was so salty about organics if she was made by another AI... Hearing that Voeld was once a lush jungle had me amazed at how reliant the planets are on the vaults! I could imagine my Ryder flat out laughing as she drove around in the ice, "This?! Jungle?!!? PAH!!" Yeah she's a nasty piece of work, but Evfra is apparently tougher lol Jaal talks of the meadows of flowers that came in colors there were no names for too. LOL my Ryder is about done with Havarl's jungle. Drack keeps luring the wildlife out to play. I still want to know how Evfra got that Ancient AI bitch to cooperate. Really, really want to know. As for Voeld, when I activated the Vault for the first time, I was afraid that the ice is actually going to melt, and how am I supposed to complete the quests thsat send me to the middle of the lake then? Luckily, that didn't happen
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 21:35:47 GMT
Yeah she's a nasty piece of work, but Evfra is apparently tougher lol Jaal talks of the meadows of flowers that came in colors there were no names for too. LOL my Ryder is about done with Havarl's jungle. Drack keeps luring the wildlife out to play. I still want to know how Evfra got that Ancient AI bitch to cooperate. Really, really want to know. As for Voeld, when I activated the Vault for the first time, I was afraid that the ice is actually going to melt, and how am I supposed to complete the quests thsat send me to the middle of the lake then? Luckily, that didn't happen Yeah lol I was having Zelda flashbacks of when I unfroze Zora's domain. I thought the Resistance was gonna kill me for making it easier to find them without the snow storm to keep them hidden!
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 21:37:04 GMT
It would also explain a little more why the AI was so salty about organics if she was made by another AI... Interesting thought. I assumed that the long isolation was the cause for her hostility, but she does see SAM as her rescuer and not Ryder or the angara, even though they all turn up and interact with her at the same time. I love her banters with SAM. She is hilariously amoral. In her banters with SAM, she sounds as if she is hitting at him. And trying to seduce him to the Dark Side with her feminine viles. Whereas SAM would be slowly edging away if he could.
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 21:38:15 GMT
I still want to know how Evfra got that Ancient AI bitch to cooperate. Really, really want to know. As for Voeld, when I activated the Vault for the first time, I was afraid that the ice is actually going to melt, and how am I supposed to complete the quests thsat send me to the middle of the lake then? Luckily, that didn't happen Yeah lol I was having Zelda flashbacks of when I unfroze Zora's domain. I thought the Resistance was gonna kill me for making it easier to find them without the snow storm to keep them hidden! I tend to take out the main Kett base before activating the Vault, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem
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Post by beholderess on May 15, 2017 21:39:00 GMT
SERIOUSLY THOUGH Its a TINY map compared to all the other worlds, and yet Havarl still manages to give me ungodly amounts of anxiety with every step :sob: I know lol no matter where I step I get hit by wildlife, Roekaar or Remnants aggravated by one of the other 2! I also HATE the the Remnant River. And don't forget climbing the tower
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Post by Gwyvian on May 15, 2017 21:39:09 GMT
Awww.
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 21:39:41 GMT
I still want to know how Evfra got that Ancient AI bitch to cooperate. Really, really want to know. As for Voeld, when I activated the Vault for the first time, I was afraid that the ice is actually going to melt, and how am I supposed to complete the quests thsat send me to the middle of the lake then? Luckily, that didn't happen Yeah lol I was having Zelda flashbacks of when I unfroze Zora's domain. I thought the Resistance was gonna kill me for making it easier to find them without the snow storm to keep them hidden! That's riiiight... the snow was good defence... I'm surprised no-one mentioned it even in passing when you return to their base... I could imagine at least one or two resistance members being a little miffed at that...
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 21:41:31 GMT
Yeah lol I was having Zelda flashbacks of when I unfroze Zora's domain. I thought the Resistance was gonna kill me for making it easier to find them without the snow storm to keep them hidden! I tend to take out the main Kett base before activating the Vault, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem Yeah I have a certain way I do those quests, or Jaal sounds like an idiot lol I go to Voeld first and do the quest that introduces me to Akksul, then I get the merchants stolen goods, then I go and save the guy's uncle and follow that long quest that ends with the Kett base destroyed and ancient AI found. I ignore Jaal back on the Tempest about contacting Evfra and head to Havarl next, then I save the Scientists, grabbed Avela's relic and find Avitus. I talk to Evfra, find out about Thaldyr, meet her, return, and save the Moshae. After the Moshae is safe and before I go to Kadara, I activate the vaults on both Voeld and Havarl.
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Post by PenDev0us on May 15, 2017 21:44:22 GMT
Interesting thought. I assumed that the long isolation was the cause for her hostility, but she does see SAM as her rescuer and not Ryder or the angara, even though they all turn up and interact with her at the same time. I love her banters with SAM. She is hilariously amoral. In her banters with SAM, she sounds as if she is hitting at him. And trying to seduce him to the Dark Side with her feminine viles. Whereas SAM would be slowly edging away if he could. Oh if only SAM had a body like EDI, he would have run for the hills!
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Post by theratpack55 on May 15, 2017 21:49:32 GMT
SERIOUSLY THOUGH Its a TINY map compared to all the other worlds, and yet Havarl still manages to give me ungodly amounts of anxiety with every step :sob: I know lol no matter where I step I get hit by wildlife, Roekaar or Remnants aggravated by one of the other 2! I also HATE the the Remnant River. Heh, Havarl is my relax zone, when returning there after most of the main stuff is completed it's just a really pleasant trip lol. Everything hostile there dies to my squad before I even manage to take my own gun out... Then again, pretty much everything save for maybe architects dies really fast in post-game.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2017 21:49:38 GMT
I have a question about something. Did any of you tell the historian on Voeld to lie about the Angara who helped the Kett, or did you tell him to be honest?
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Post by Psychedelic on May 15, 2017 21:52:13 GMT
That talk about the origin of the Scourge and if was meant to target the Angara gave me an idea. What if the ancient Angara rebelled against their creators, because they suppressed/used them or because the Jardaan continued to experiment on them and "discarded" failed experiments. That would make the Angara the "opposition" mentioned in Khi Tasira. They once must have had more knowledge about Jardaan technology and been able to use it, but it is not beyond the realm of possibility some of them initially collaborated with the Jardaan and learned from them. They then developed and deployed the Scourge in order to rid themselves from Jardaan dominance, full well knowing they would hit their own civilisation pretty hard in the process as well, but as long as it serves a greater purpose...Hm, the last part sounds awfully familiar. Maybe Bioware did pull another Solas with the Angara after all. Considering just how much damage the Scourge did to the angara, and how reliant they seemed to be on Remnant technology, they thoroughly deserved what happened to them if they did develop and deploy a weapon like that And if they WERE responsible for the Scourge, surely they would have had some kind of plan B for what happened after? I understand that individual angara can withhold information from the Andromeda Initiative, but IMO there's a difference between that and an entire species playing dumb about their history. Solas is currently the reigning God of Bad Ideas, and I like him in that role. If the angara as a species are THAT full of bad ideas, we can take the AI elsewhere in Andromeda. No need to stay in Heleus I never said it would have been a good idea, but desperation might lead to stupid ideas, so no plan B, just a case of act first, think later (optional). The Angara's apparent lack of knowledge about the time before the Scourge is only poorly explained in the game, imo. Sure, much would be lost after such an desaster, but everything, in particular such insubstantial parts like being created or the Jardaan's existence in general? They could be lying, of course, but to what end? And, as you said, so many individual who should know about these things and not a single one of them blabbering out? I don't think so. Barring the (sadly not so unlikely) possibility of a narrative tool to leave room for development in later games/DLCs the Angara truly do not know about the Jardaan, or at least they didn't until Ryder told them. Makes me wonder if their assumed genetic memory might work both ways, not only to carry over certain information to the next generation, but also block undesired memories, which then would be lost for the following generations who then could never learn about them.
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Post by Gwyvian on May 15, 2017 21:54:54 GMT
I have a question about something. Did any of you tell the historian on Voeld to lie about the Angara who helped the Kett, or did you tell him to be honest? I think I told him to be honest. It serves no one to cover up history and pretend it didn't happen, that breeds arrogance and superiority that could eventually be a huge weakness. I mean, of course it will cause strife and pain to reveal this information, but if the angara believe that they are completely blameless in all respects, how can they learn from those mistakes of the past? They're not invulnerable, neither physiologically nor psychologically and they the best thing to do for them is help them prepare as best they can against all manner of threats, including psychological ones.
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