The Geth Initiative

Of course it matters because it all boils down to believability. Shepard was aided by Legion and then had 'him' at his mercy, which gave Shep a chance to evaluate the situation with little risk. In ME3 we were at war and needed all the help we could get on the crucible in desperate circumstances, plus the Alliance knew in advance that there were non-hostile Geth. In contrast, the AI would basically have to have been ready to go by the time the Geth arrived and had no real reason to trust the Geth or gamble on the lives of 80,000 people on the potential assistance of a race they believed the galaxy was at war with. And this all assumes that the Geth would even want to go to Andromeda.

Like I said, if the Geth established contact with the AI well in advance and had a chance to prove their good intentions then yeah, it makes more sense for them to come along. But that isn't the case. Legion's codex states that he was a unique platform created after Sovereign's destruction specifically to interact with organics. Not very unique if a whole faction of Geth beat him to it. Plus I find it unlikely that Legion would not have mentioned the third faction in ME2 when he would have to have known about them. At the very least it would have helped convince Shep that Geth in general weren't hostile.

Your original point was that the only reason not to have Geth in Andromeda is if the devs don't want them there. I'd strongly contend that the opposite is true. Including them would be twisting the lore purely for fan service.

Im not sure I understand the question. How would the Geth trick organics into cooperating?

exactly as i said in my OP: 1 (first) A ridiculously small in scale AI development cell is made in support of the pre-Andromeda initiative operation, which at this time may have no allusion to such a trip. 2 (second) the geth contact the cell and ultimately the cell brokers the deal because if they do they provide unprecedented resources for a cell their size, making huge names for themselves, meanwhile the geth make the deal because that is what they are there for and have calculated the organics responses to this situation. 3 (third) the cell provides to TIM-equivalent pre-Andromeda initiative operations head an unprecedented gift of a massive space station which is to be built up into the nexus, complete with trip plans to escape the reapers. No one immediately questions the gift and by the time questions are raised the cell is erased and no one really cares to remember where the ships came from, much like the relays before them, ‘don’t look a gift horse in the mouth’. Oho, so it turns out SAM is a geth in disguise I suppose.


i would like this thread to be about why the geth could not have tricked organics into doing this.

Sorry, I got a bit sidetracked debating with Crutch.

So when you say AI you mean artificial intelligence, not Andromeda Initiative? Maybe that's where I'm misunderstanding you.

Hmmm, I still think it's a bit far fetched. Even this cell would have to be sceptical about contact from the Geth. I'm also not sure who the pre-Initiative head would be, since there is nothing to be head of. And a space station as a gift out of the blue would look might suspicious!

I could perhaps see a situation where Geth programs infiltrate the initiative as stowaways, and maybe subtly nudge the initiative in the direction of certain critical technological developments. But tricking humans into deciding to go to Andromeda in the first place might be a bit much!

No worries ProbeAway and everyone, I'm glad the topic spurred such discussion. And yes, whenever I wrote AI I meant Artificial Intelligence, and whenever I meant Andromeda Initiative I wrote it out. People have made some pretty interesting arguments, one thing in particular that the geth would need to not be a large part of the story, because of new and old players equally going 'wtf?', but then I thought that Liara giving cerberus shepherds body was a pretty large part of the story but you only know about it through the DLC, I think it could be similarly revealed even only in a DLC or small optional side mission that the geth were the originators without actually affecting the main story at all, and even possibly completely going unknown even to the main character, without being a detriment to the story. I'm looking forward to reading more peoples' opinions.

edit: i saw something i forgot to mention in my OP that i had not seen discussed in other threads, another thread reminded me so i thought not to add to my OP but state it here:
Project Overlord was a DLC I never played through but i watched the play-throughs on youtube. it does prove cerberus had access to working geth, and that maybe this project could have resulted in some geth 'infiltrating' the Andromeda Initiative. this seems to be more acceptable to most players than the geth outright starting the arks as per my theory but i suppose they are not mutually exclusive either.

You forget the True Geth let the Heretics go without really keeping tabs on them, hence Legion's surprise at the virus. Why would they then keep tabs on this third faction? Legion's uniqueness or its telling Shepard of the third faction all predicate on it having full knowledge of what the third faction did after it left. Something that precedent argues against. And for the record, a Legion like platform is hardly necessary to make contact with organics. Legion's mission was not just contact, it was seeking Shepard out. Given the wariness of organics you've noted the third faction may well have kept initial contact to the extranet, possibly even passing as benefactors before revealing themselves so as to build up good will. We know geth monitor organic communications and occasionally troll them. It's not at all a stretch to think they may engage in this way.

The point is, we know the geth are not hostile and we know they could help the AI and that despite their history contact and cooperation between them and organics is far from insurmountable (quite the opposite actually). That no records of their contact exist thus far is not worrying in the least since no records of any of this Andromeda business exist either. Precedent is set in every way that matters. There is nothing stopping the geth from being in Andromeda, apart from someone not wanting them there. Note, I did not say that excluding them is unjustifiable- if you don't write in a third faction, the geth never enter into it. And there's also the matter of how that faction is written as the biggest impediment to geth inclusion is their own motivations. Why would the geth choose to help? There, we might have some more interesting discussions. But timing, fear? These are merely excuses, not real reasons.

I actually agree with much of what you say (although the Geth did keep tabs on the heretics, and Legion would still at least know that a third faction existed even if he didn't know exactly what they were doing). But all of that just argues that your theory is possible, which I'm not debating. What I am debating is whether or not it is believable.

Everything we learn about the Geth in ME1 and the first half of ME2 indicates that organics, one and all, view the Geth as absolutely hostile. This is supported by every codex entry, every Geth encounter and the MEU history in general. It's completely drilled into the player. There is literally no indication, up until Shep meets Legion, that there is any such thing as a non-hostile Geth, let alone a helpful one that would want to start a joint venture with organics. To write another non-hostile faction in retrospectively would be sidestepping what we were told was established lore. That's not exactly model RPG practice.

I realise that they have already set a precedent for this with the existence of the AI and the tech that will get them to Andromeda. That suspends belief too, but in my view it's a case of the end justifying the means. Once the devs decided they didn't want to make any ME3 choices canon, there was no perfect way to avoid them without adding to the lore retrospectively to get us to a new setting. The idea that the AI and its tech existed during the trilogy, even though there was zero indication of it in any of the games, books and comics, is (to put it mildly) a bit jarring. I'm personally content to overlook that because I appreciate the devs' motivation. But doing it once doesn't automatically justify doing it again.

Here, there is only one motivation for writing the Geth into MEA: fan service. If you put that aside, it seems patently obvious to me that your scenario, while certainly not impossible, is highly unlikely. It would require some variation on the following:
- the establishment of a previously unheard of Geth faction
- a sensible motive for the Geth to want to get to Andromeda AND do so in conjunction with organics, as opposed to doing it on their own
- a method by which they made anonymous but fruitful contact with the AI (of all people!)
- a way in which they were then able to peacefully reveal their identity to the AI without jeopardising their involvement in the project
- developing a level of trust that made the AI overlook a centuries-long belief that the Geth were murderous robots to the point where they would put the lives of 80,000 innocent people in their hands.

Like I said, possible but highly unlikely. Ultimately I suppose BW would have made a judgement call on the Geth at some point in development - is it worth adding another layer of suspension of belief in order to make Geth fans happy? I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Which shifts the onus from the story to the individual and thus, goes back to what I was saying about willing vs not. At the end of the day each of us can decide whether we believe something or not. Just making sure that's clear.

You say lore firmly establishes a belief. Except what you seem to be consistently omitting is that lore also establishes that belief to be mostly false. Organics believe the geth to be hostile. The geth, for the most part are not. So again are you personally choosing to hold one belief over another (or in this case facts established once again after the fact via what may be be called a retcon)?

And while the end may justify the means for the AI in general, it is not the only thing to do so, because facts established in the lore can be manipulated and extrapolated to arrive at said end with very little handwaving. The means: stasis hybernation (already a thing), a drive likely reverse engineered from Sovereign like the Thanix was (precedent) and presumably some system for capturing/discharging emissions. The latter would be the one new and seemingly outlandish thing, but even then not that outlandish once you start throwing words like revolutionary and experimental around. You could even say that because they haven't found a way to miniaturize it yet, it can't be used on ships smaller than an Ark which neatly explains why we don't suddenly abandon the relays in ME3. But anyway, moving on. The motive- escaping the Reapers. Yes that's not in the marketing speak but that's pretty much what it has to be. The only other plausible scenario is some higher power from Andromeda summoning us for well, reasons. That is an asspull and almost a placeholder of one as it seems like the kind of thing that would be dragged out for multiple games/ other media. But depending on how it was done, it may work. Which is my point overall, really. If it can be explained it can be believed, unless you have some personal issue with it. Now if it turns out to not be explained or explained poorly or facts are established that directly contradict a logical explanation, then I'm with you. But ruling things out by not accepting any expanding of established lore seems odd and superficial to me.

And see, even how you put that, "fan service", suggests a bias. Is it fan service to want as many elements from the original trilogy to carry over? The geth are a fairly iconic staple of the franchise. They may be literally the only thing on the box cover of Mass Effect that can make the trip over. Why is it fan service that we bring them over and not franchise service? Does anyone bat an eye that the krogan are on board the Ark? Why? Aren't they fatalistic savages dying out due to the genophage, who also have a history of agression with the Council races? What could they possibly bring to the table? Wasn't it fan service to include them? I say no. While the fans may certainly rejoice, I think the addition of the krogan was good for the franchise as a whole being one of its cornerstone races. And despite their role as antagonists in the first game, I believe the geth to be equally iconic.

But let's look at the criteria you outlined.

- the establishment of a previously unheard of Geth faction <- not unlike the establishment of a previously unheard of Andromeda Initiative. The effect here is not additive, it merges.
- a sensible motive for the Geth to want to get to Andromeda AND do so in conjunction with organics, as opposed to doing it on their own <- like a sensible motivation for the organics to get to Andromeda? As to why do it together, I think a better question is why build your own extragalactic transport when one's already available. Though the geth might stand the best chance of doing it on their own, would two expeditions to Andromeda really be more believeable than one, when people have such issues with the one?
- a method by which they made anonymous but fruitful contact with the AI (of all people!) <-already exists. We know the geth watch and even troll the extranet.
- a way in which they were then able to peacefully reveal their identity to the AI without jeopardising their involvement in the project <- you seem to think this is a bigger hurdle than it is. You said all it took for Shepard to trust Legion was seeing Legion help him out and then talk to it in a setting where he wasn't threatened. Can you really think of no simple scenario where the AI and third faction geth might replicate this? If they're revealed as providing resources and techincal assistance to the project for six months and then on the next shipment a Prime comes with it holding no weapons and a white flag, is that so insurmountable?
- developing a level of trust that made the AI overlook a centuries-long belief that the Geth were murderous robots to the point where they would put the lives of 80,000 innocent people in their hands. <-this might be an issue if it required all 80,000 people to sign off on it. But as with Shepard, it only takes the ones in charge to make it viable. We know the AI is open to and actually uses AI (as in artificial intelligence). Obviously there's a difference between using an AI you've built vs using an alien one. But research into that area at all signifies a willingness to listen more than they might otherwise I think.

So again, entirely plausible. Judging likelyhood I think comes from personal assumptions, not anything in the story.

Geth are so boring. The Bith is where it's at. I'm hoping to find 5-piece Bith Bands in Andromeda.

Whoa. 'Jizz'; seriously?
I mean, I get it when GTA Vice City does it. But the guy doing the ROtJ novelization surely knew what he was doing.

Nope. While your arguments involving logic are correct, Mass Effect never cared about logic or believability.

Remember when Shepard died and got resurrected in two years time by an black ops organization that somehow hadthe technology to make this happen? You know, the same guy that was under the influence of the reapers for 30 years and rescued you from the other guys that were also under the influence of the reapers?

Or the fact that the Illusive Man basic says: "Hey Sheps, we want you to work with us because Reapers are being mean again, the Alliance won't help you, your old buddies won't help you, but we will."
Shepard: "Ok."

And one conversation was all it took.

Unfortunately for people like you and me that appreciate when things make sense, this will not be the case, so as bad as it sounds, CrutchCricket is quite right. If the devs want to put geth in there without giving a damn about their established rules, they'll do it. Hell, they are even putting Reaper War shotguns that didn't exist by the time the arks left.


I don't like it either.