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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 11, 2017 5:55:22 GMT
You're correct in that a choice about belief comes down to the individual. But the notion of believability comes down to an assessment of what the fan base as a whole is likely to accept as something that fits sensibly within the established lore. It's not black and white (which is why it can be debated like this) but it's still objectively assessable, within reason. The revelation that the rest of the Geth beyond the veil weren't inherently hostile was significant and certainly changed what we thought we knew from ME1. However, at that point what had been revealed about the Geth was extremely limited. We knew they rebelled against the Quarians, that they generally stayed behind the veil and that a bunch of Geth aided saren. That's about it. There were obvious, gaping holes in our knowledge that invited the introduction of further lore. ME2 (and then 3) lays down that lore. It explains Legion's uniqueness, the schism in the Geth, the basics of how they function, that their base state is one of ambivalence toward organics and that sovereign corrupted some - but not all - of their number. It fills in the key gaps in our knowledge. And that's why this particular issue arises now - as a general rule, the more lore you introduce in relation to a subject, the less gaps there are. The less gaps there are, the less believable it becomes when you introduce anything that departs from the status quo. Coming up with potential scenarios to answer each of my dot points only addresses possibility, not believability. Could each of those things possibly have happened? Sure. Would the fan base as a whole find it particularly believable not only that each of those thing happened, but that they all happened together? IMO, no. And I'm basing that view on lore that is far more fleshed out than it was before Legion was first introduced. Your opening statement in this thread was that 'There is no argument for why the geth shouldn't have been involved in Andromeda other than "I don't want it".' Well, that's not my argument at all. I like the Geth but - trying to be as objective about it as I can - I don't think the bulk of the fan base would find the scenario you described particularly believable. I could be wrong on that but in my experience there's only so much handwaving fans (particularly RPG fans, to whom respecting lore tends to be important) will accept. Ps I'm on my way up the coast of Tassie for a couple of days so not sure what my reception will be like. It's been fun Filling in the gaps of lore is only problematic for a proposition like this if it actually blocks what you're trying to propose, directly or indirectly. Having something more or less filled in and still adding to it is still valid, provided you don't contradict anything. And by contradict I mean come to two mutually exclusive statements about established facts that cannot resolve and stand together. Barring those cases, I don't see why additions to "near saturated" lore should be any less believable than adding to empty lore. You have less room to maneuver but as long as you don't knock over anything, you're fine. Nope. While your arguments involving logic are correct, Mass Effect never cared about logic or believability. Remember when Shepard died and got resurrected in two years time by an black ops organization that somehow hadthe technology to make this happen? You know, the same guy that was under the influence of the reapers for 30 years and rescued you from the other guys that were also under the influence of the reapers? Or the fact that the Illusive Man basic says: "Hey Sheps, we want you to work with us because Reapers are being mean again, the Alliance won't help you, your old buddies won't help you, but we will." Shepard: "Ok." And one conversation was all it took. Unfortunately for people like you and me that appreciate when things make sense, this will not be the case, so as bad as it sounds, CrutchCricket is quite right. If the devs want to put geth in there without giving a damn about their established rules, they'll do it. Hell, they are even putting Reaper War shotguns that didn't exist by the time the arks left. I don't like it either. See, you say you agree with me but then you go and say the opposite of what I was saying. Arguing that Mass Effect never had believabilty or rather the consistency of such so we're justified in throwing out logic is exactly at cross-purposes with what I'm saying, namely that we can use logic, lore, consistency, all of that to justify the conclusion. My point is we don't need to throw everything out. Because it does work. Or at least it can. There are some specific constraints that if BioWare ignores or outright goes against, then yeah, we are screwed and might as well abandon all brains at the door. But unless/until that happens, we've still got cause to make sense of all this.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 6:08:04 GMT
You're correct in that a choice about belief comes down to the individual. But the notion of believability comes down to an assessment of what the fan base as a whole is likely to accept as something that fits sensibly within the established lore. It's not black and white (which is why it can be debated like this) but it's still objectively assessable, within reason. The revelation that the rest of the Geth beyond the veil weren't inherently hostile was significant and certainly changed what we thought we knew from ME1. However, at that point what had been revealed about the Geth was extremely limited. We knew they rebelled against the Quarians, that they generally stayed behind the veil and that a bunch of Geth aided saren. That's about it. There were obvious, gaping holes in our knowledge that invited the introduction of further lore. ME2 (and then 3) lays down that lore. It explains Legion's uniqueness, the schism in the Geth, the basics of how they function, that their base state is one of ambivalence toward organics and that sovereign corrupted some - but not all - of their number. It fills in the key gaps in our knowledge. And that's why this particular issue arises now - as a general rule, the more lore you introduce in relation to a subject, the less gaps there are. The less gaps there are, the less believable it becomes when you introduce anything that departs from the status quo. Coming up with potential scenarios to answer each of my dot points only addresses possibility, not believability. Could each of those things possibly have happened? Sure. Would the fan base as a whole find it particularly believable not only that each of those thing happened, but that they all happened together? IMO, no. And I'm basing that view on lore that is far more fleshed out than it was before Legion was first introduced. Your opening statement in this thread was that 'There is no argument for why the geth shouldn't have been involved in Andromeda other than "I don't want it".' Well, that's not my argument at all. I like the Geth but - trying to be as objective about it as I can - I don't think the bulk of the fan base would find the scenario you described particularly believable. I could be wrong on that but in my experience there's only so much handwaving fans (particularly RPG fans, to whom respecting lore tends to be important) will accept. Ps I'm on my way up the coast of Tassie for a couple of days so not sure what my reception will be like. It's been fun Filling in the gaps of lore is only problematic for a proposition like this if it actually blocks what you're trying to propose, directly or indirectly. Having something more or less filled in and still adding to it is still valid, provided you don't contradict anything. And by contradict I mean come to two mutually exclusive statements about established facts that cannot resolve and stand together. Barring those cases, I don't see why additions to "near saturated" lore should be any less believable than adding to empty lore. You have less room to maneuver but as long as you don't knock over anything, you're fine. Nope. While your arguments involving logic are correct, Mass Effect never cared about logic or believability. Remember when Shepard died and got resurrected in two years time by an black ops organization that somehow hadthe technology to make this happen? You know, the same guy that was under the influence of the reapers for 30 years and rescued you from the other guys that were also under the influence of the reapers? Or the fact that the Illusive Man basic says: "Hey Sheps, we want you to work with us because Reapers are being mean again, the Alliance won't help you, your old buddies won't help you, but we will." Shepard: "Ok." And one conversation was all it took. Unfortunately for people like you and me that appreciate when things make sense, this will not be the case, so as bad as it sounds, CrutchCricket is quite right. If the devs want to put geth in there without giving a damn about their established rules, they'll do it. Hell, they are even putting Reaper War shotguns that didn't exist by the time the arks left. I don't like it either. See, you say you agree with me but then you go and say the opposite of what I was saying. Arguing that Mass Effect never had believabilty or rather the consistency of such so we're justified in throwing out logic is exactly at cross-purposes with what I'm saying, namely that we can use logic, lore, consistency, all of that to justify the conclusion. My point is we don't need to throw everything out. Because it does work. Or at least it can. There are some specific constraints that if BioWare ignores or outright goes against, then yeah, we are screwed and might as well abandon all brains at the door. But unless/until that happens, we've still got cause to make sense of all this. Apologies, then. It's late and I'm very drunk. But I still stand that Mass effect never held much ground in consistency, and I don't see why they would start now, but I hope, of course. Or maybe I'm misreading again what you said... Shit, I need to sleep. I'll read this all in the morning, no worries.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 11, 2017 6:21:12 GMT
Apologies, then. It's late and I'm very drunk. But I still stand that Mass effect never held much ground in consistency, and I don't see why they would start now, but I hope, of course. Or maybe I'm misreading again what you said... Shit, I need to sleep. I'll read this all in the morning, no worries. Well they have had some significant fuckups in that department. Doesn't mean we give up the concept.
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Post by ProbeAway on Feb 11, 2017 22:30:42 GMT
You're correct in that a choice about belief comes down to the individual. But the notion of believability comes down to an assessment of what the fan base as a whole is likely to accept as something that fits sensibly within the established lore. It's not black and white (which is why it can be debated like this) but it's still objectively assessable, within reason. The revelation that the rest of the Geth beyond the veil weren't inherently hostile was significant and certainly changed what we thought we knew from ME1. However, at that point what had been revealed about the Geth was extremely limited. We knew they rebelled against the Quarians, that they generally stayed behind the veil and that a bunch of Geth aided saren. That's about it. There were obvious, gaping holes in our knowledge that invited the introduction of further lore. ME2 (and then 3) lays down that lore. It explains Legion's uniqueness, the schism in the Geth, the basics of how they function, that their base state is one of ambivalence toward organics and that sovereign corrupted some - but not all - of their number. It fills in the key gaps in our knowledge. And that's why this particular issue arises now - as a general rule, the more lore you introduce in relation to a subject, the less gaps there are. The less gaps there are, the less believable it becomes when you introduce anything that departs from the status quo. Coming up with potential scenarios to answer each of my dot points only addresses possibility, not believability. Could each of those things possibly have happened? Sure. Would the fan base as a whole find it particularly believable not only that each of those thing happened, but that they all happened together? IMO, no. And I'm basing that view on lore that is far more fleshed out than it was before Legion was first introduced. Your opening statement in this thread was that 'There is no argument for why the geth shouldn't have been involved in Andromeda other than "I don't want it".' Well, that's not my argument at all. I like the Geth but - trying to be as objective about it as I can - I don't think the bulk of the fan base would find the scenario you described particularly believable. I could be wrong on that but in my experience there's only so much handwaving fans (particularly RPG fans, to whom respecting lore tends to be important) will accept. Ps I'm on my way up the coast of Tassie for a couple of days so not sure what my reception will be like. It's been fun Filling in the gaps of lore is only problematic for a proposition like this if it actually blocks what you're trying to propose, directly or indirectly. Having something more or less filled in and still adding to it is still valid, provided you don't contradict anything. And by contradict I mean come to two mutually exclusive statements about established facts that cannot resolve and stand together. Barring those cases, I don't see why additions to "near saturated" lore should be any less believable than adding to empty lore. You have less room to maneuver but as long as you don't knock over anything, you're fine. (Hey, reception!) I think we've found the crux of our disagreement then. There will always be gaps in lore to some degree because it just isn't possible to create 'blanket' lore in a work of fiction. This is particularly true in a sci-fi/fantasy universe where almost anything is possible. As far as I'm concerned, just because the writers can insert something that isn't out-and-out contradictory to the lore, it doesn't mean that they should. That is where my whole believability point comes into it. As a rule of thumb: (a) the more the lore on a particular topic has already been fleshed out in-game; and ( the more substantial the departure from what fans believe they already know regarding that topic, the less likely it is that they will be happy to swallow the addition without backlash. The devs can effectively shoe-horn in whatever they want and hand wave the in-game reasons. But I think if they are going to make major additions to an area of lore that is already saturated, and that change alters what fans believe to be true, then there should be a very good reason for said shoe-horning. If you don't see an issue with additions of that nature then I guess we just have different expectations about the way a game universe should be built.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 11, 2017 22:41:06 GMT
(Hey, reception!) I think we've found the crux of our disagreement then. There will always be gaps in lore to some degree because it just isn't possible to create 'blanket' lore in a work of fiction. This is particularly true in a sci-fi/fantasy universe where almost anything is possible. As far as I'm concerned, just because the writers can insert something that isn't out-and-out contradictory to the lore, it doesn't mean that they should. That is where my whole believability point comes into it. As a rule of thumb: (a) the more the lore on a particular topic has already been fleshed out in-game; and ( the more substantial the departure from what fans believe they already know regarding that topic, the less likely it is that they will be happy to swallow the addition without backlash. The devs can effectively shoe-horn in whatever they want and hand wave the in-game reasons. But I think if they are going to make major additions to an area of lore that is already saturated, and that change alters what fans believe to be true, then there should be a very good reason for said shoe-horning. If you don't see an issue with additions of that nature then I guess we just have different expectations about the way a game universe should be built. Alright. But even by your definition adding the geth to Andromeda by the means I've described isn't a substantial departure from what fans believe they know. Everything I've described already has precedent in the trilogy and/or precedent in the fundamental proposition of the AI to begin with. All of this is doing things we've already seen, just earlier by in-universe time, and off to the side.
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Post by ProbeAway on Feb 11, 2017 22:54:03 GMT
(Hey, reception!) I think we've found the crux of our disagreement then. There will always be gaps in lore to some degree because it just isn't possible to create 'blanket' lore in a work of fiction. This is particularly true in a sci-fi/fantasy universe where almost anything is possible. As far as I'm concerned, just because the writers can insert something that isn't out-and-out contradictory to the lore, it doesn't mean that they should. That is where my whole believability point comes into it. As a rule of thumb: (a) the more the lore on a particular topic has already been fleshed out in-game; and ( the more substantial the departure from what fans believe they already know regarding that topic, the less likely it is that they will be happy to swallow the addition without backlash. The devs can effectively shoe-horn in whatever they want and hand wave the in-game reasons. But I think if they are going to make major additions to an area of lore that is already saturated, and that change alters what fans believe to be true, then there should be a very good reason for said shoe-horning. If you don't see an issue with additions of that nature then I guess we just have different expectations about the way a game universe should be built. Alright. But even by your definition adding the geth to Andromeda by the means I've described isn't a substantial departure from what fans believe they know. Everything I've described already has precedent in the trilogy and/or precedent in the fundamental proposition of the AI to begin with. All of this is doing things we've already seen, just earlier by in-universe time, and off to the side. I can't agree that it's not a substantial departure from our current understanding. As things sit, we have every reason to believe that there are two Geth factions and that Legion was the first non-hostile Geth platform to go beyond the veil and make contact with organics. We weren't expressly told anything that outright precludes the existence of any other factions/contact, but that's not my point!
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Post by Psychevore on Feb 11, 2017 23:35:29 GMT
I don't think we'll see Geth. Would love it if the game was, secretly at first, about AI in a galaxy without Reapers and everything going to hell because of it. Maybe in the third installment
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 19:27:05 GMT
Geth are so boring. The Bith is where it's at. I'm hoping to find 5-piece Bith Bands in Andromeda. What! Geth are boring! Take that back before I open up a can of 010011011011101110 on your ass!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 19:55:33 GMT
Geth are so boring. The Bith is where it's at. I'm hoping to find 5-piece Bith Bands in Andromeda. What! Geth are boring! Take that back before I open up a can of 010011011011101110 on your ass! Wait, what's the meaning of that binary number? It translates to this Han character in 4-byte UTF-8 (filling in zeroes on the left): 㛮 Which is supposed to mean 'the wife of one's elder brother'. I don't have an elder brother. Even if I did, I doubt that his wife would come in a 'can'. So what are you trying to say? Chopped up into 1 byte characters, it says: 6î in ASCII, which is even more strange.... WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY, GETH?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 15, 2017 19:57:28 GMT
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Post by SwobyJ on Feb 16, 2017 2:01:43 GMT
I recently got a poor mark on a quiz because my mind blanked about binary ((
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 17:13:34 GMT
What! Geth are boring! Take that back before I open up a can of 010011011011101110 on your ass! Wait, what's the meaning of that binary number? Reaper binary code upgrade. Do not be alarmed, your puny organic brain does not have the processing power to understand
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Post by degs29 on Feb 16, 2017 18:10:13 GMT
I don't see why the Geth couldn't have their own initiative. Considering how the Heretics took to the Reapers, it wouldn't be outside the realm of reason for other factions within the Geth to seek advancement and meaning in Andromeda.
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Post by General Mahad on Feb 16, 2017 20:58:04 GMT
Geth are infiltrators and it could be possible that Geth components managed to hide themselves on board one of the Ark ships or Nexus and begin to slowly make more units through the hundreds of years of travel.
I'm all for the flashlight heads being in Andromeda.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 17, 2017 16:18:48 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Basically, you cannot romance a machine. Organics are supreme.
lol. Organics are also a machine. All of this has happened before, and will all happen again. If you don't believe me, just wait
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Post by The Arbiter on Feb 17, 2017 16:19:38 GMT
The Geth Initiative – Geth lovers rejoice in my head canon, enemy of geth falter before my undeniable logic! Tl;dr; the geth did it. The Long: I had scoured the internet for information on the geth in Andromeda and it was pretty universally believed that of any race worthy of being left behind, the geth were most. Even volus, hanar, and batarians were listed as more likely. Some few arguments for the geth were that a third consensus, like the heretics, had been made and contacted Cerberus AI factions, or non-Cerberus SAM developer, working on the Andromeda initiative. One stated the geth would make ideal crew for the trip while in cryo, where others suggested this was the reason for the long-lived krogans another suggested the krogan would still require food, life support, and therefore produce heat in the trip. I will not go into arguments against the geth because at least one reason will be obvious to everyone and most people will have their own ideas about why geth are not good candidates for the trip alongside organics. I had read an offhand comment mentioning that the geth had been considered as an alternative to ME2’s Cerberus for the perpetrators of the Lazarus Project, if you are interested there are some threads on this specifically that talk about things like the geths motivations for reviving shepherd, the coolest ‘for’ comment I found said something like “shepherd had killed the heretics god, and so the geth took interest” this explains why legion was the way he was; his N7 armor, his tracking shepherd across so many planets to get that armor, etc. It also makes sense in that the geth would be more advanced than humanity (they came from quarians and I just remember kasumi’s comment “when was the last time quarians wrote on stone” – or similar, they are old and technologically advanced and the geth not as old are even more advanced) and no one else has brought dead back to life to my knowledge (i.e. why are humans so technologically advanced?). I digress. There is also this dark ark theory talking about the similarities of the arks and the collector cruisers. Anyone arguing for these cannot argue the geth would not have access to them as well. Further a major argument for the dark arks is that the arks seem to be massively advanced ships that no one knows about, that just come from nowhere. What better place could nowhere be than geth space, and where better to get advanced ships? Even if the arks have not to do with the cruisers this argument holds. Think, where did the arks come from? The nexus? And could the geth have built it? Maybe they repurposed a large, or very very small, piece of their Dyson sphere. It may be that the ‘third’ consensus is actually the one that stuck around to build the sphere and the majority of the geth decided to make for Andromeda. So then ask, why bring organics along at all? Well clearly the bulk of the Andromeda intiative has little to do with the geth, much of the volume and mass of the stations are not conducive to geth progress they are conducive to the progress of all these other species. Well, why not. The geth may be huge contributors to the Andromeda initiative, larger than all the other races combined, and they still would not have made it without the resources of all these other species. The reason must be that the geth have calculated that without organic aide they will not complete construction in time to beat the reapers. It’s a 1 or 0 answer so they go for organic help with the contingency plan to abandon the quest if organics are unable to be allied with. Ultimately it is a combined effort, but it would go something like this: 1 A ridiculously small in scale AI development cell is made in support of the pre-Andromeda initiative operation, which at this time may have no allusion to such a trip. 2 the geth contact the cell and ultimately the cell brokers the deal because if they do they provide unprecedented resources for a cell their size, making huge names for themselves, meanwhile the geth make the deal because that is what they are there for and have calculated the organics responses to this situation. 3 the cell provides to TIM-equivalent pre-Andromeda initiative operations head an unprecedented gift of a massive space station which is to be built up into the nexus, complete with trip plans to escape the reapers. No one immediately questions the gift and by the time questions are raised the cell is erased and no one really cares to remember where the ships came from, much like the relays before them, ‘don’t look a gift horse in the mouth’. Oho, so it turns out SAM is a geth in disguise I suppose. P.S. this is my first post, so please go easy on me. I hope this gets some good attention, causes discussion, etc. and that you guys and girls enjoyed my most probably wrong theories. Tl;dr2; Everyone wonders where humans got the tech for lazarus, the answer is the geth were originally planned not Cerberus. Everyone is wondering where these massive ark ships and super advanced nexus came from, the answer is the geth are originally planned not the council races. Or so I choose to believe because… because legion. I think every old species will come... but as a DLC yuckkkk
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