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Post by shepherdcommander on Feb 9, 2017 17:38:46 GMT
The Geth Initiative – Geth lovers rejoice in my head canon, enemy of geth falter before my undeniable logic! Tl;dr; the geth did it.
The Long: I had scoured the internet for information on the geth in Andromeda and it was pretty universally believed that of any race worthy of being left behind, the geth were most. Even volus, hanar, and batarians were listed as more likely. Some few arguments for the geth were that a third consensus, like the heretics, had been made and contacted Cerberus AI factions, or non-Cerberus SAM developer, working on the Andromeda initiative. One stated the geth would make ideal crew for the trip while in cryo, where others suggested this was the reason for the long-lived krogans another suggested the krogan would still require food, life support, and therefore produce heat in the trip. I will not go into arguments against the geth because at least one reason will be obvious to everyone and most people will have their own ideas about why geth are not good candidates for the trip alongside organics.
I had read an offhand comment mentioning that the geth had been considered as an alternative to ME2’s Cerberus for the perpetrators of the Lazarus Project, if you are interested there are some threads on this specifically that talk about things like the geths motivations for reviving shepherd, the coolest ‘for’ comment I found said something like “shepherd had killed the heretics god, and so the geth took interest” this explains why legion was the way he was; his N7 armor, his tracking shepherd across so many planets to get that armor, etc. It also makes sense in that the geth would be more advanced than humanity (they came from quarians and I just remember kasumi’s comment “when was the last time quarians wrote on stone” – or similar, they are old and technologically advanced and the geth not as old are even more advanced) and no one else has brought dead back to life to my knowledge (i.e. why are humans so technologically advanced?). I digress.
There is also this dark ark theory talking about the similarities of the arks and the collector cruisers. Anyone arguing for these cannot argue the geth would not have access to them as well. Further a major argument for the dark arks is that the arks seem to be massively advanced ships that no one knows about, that just come from nowhere. What better place could nowhere be than geth space, and where better to get advanced ships? Even if the arks have not to do with the cruisers this argument holds. Think, where did the arks come from? The nexus? And could the geth have built it? Maybe they repurposed a large, or very very small, piece of their Dyson sphere. It may be that the ‘third’ consensus is actually the one that stuck around to build the sphere and the majority of the geth decided to make for Andromeda.
So then ask, why bring organics along at all? Well clearly the bulk of the Andromeda intiative has little to do with the geth, much of the volume and mass of the stations are not conducive to geth progress they are conducive to the progress of all these other species. Well, why not. The geth may be huge contributors to the Andromeda initiative, larger than all the other races combined, and they still would not have made it without the resources of all these other species. The reason must be that the geth have calculated that without organic aide they will not complete construction in time to beat the reapers. It’s a 1 or 0 answer so they go for organic help with the contingency plan to abandon the quest if organics are unable to be allied with. Ultimately it is a combined effort, but it would go something like this:
1 A ridiculously small in scale AI development cell is made in support of the pre-Andromeda initiative operation, which at this time may have no allusion to such a trip. 2 the geth contact the cell and ultimately the cell brokers the deal because if they do they provide unprecedented resources for a cell their size, making huge names for themselves, meanwhile the geth make the deal because that is what they are there for and have calculated the organics responses to this situation. 3 the cell provides to TIM-equivalent pre-Andromeda initiative operations head an unprecedented gift of a massive space station which is to be built up into the nexus, complete with trip plans to escape the reapers. No one immediately questions the gift and by the time questions are raised the cell is erased and no one really cares to remember where the ships came from, much like the relays before them, ‘don’t look a gift horse in the mouth’. Oho, so it turns out SAM is a geth in disguise I suppose.
P.S. this is my first post, so please go easy on me. I hope this gets some good attention, causes discussion, etc. and that you guys and girls enjoyed my most probably wrong theories.
Tl;dr2; Everyone wonders where humans got the tech for lazarus, the answer is the geth were originally planned not Cerberus. Everyone is wondering where these massive ark ships and super advanced nexus came from, the answer is the geth are originally planned not the council races. Or so I choose to believe because… because legion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 17:47:43 GMT
This man speaks truth
More Geth required
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Post by garrusfan1 on Feb 9, 2017 18:31:42 GMT
maybe this means some of legion will be in MEA that would be awesome. He was my favorite character with a flash light head since the robot from short circut
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 9, 2017 18:33:21 GMT
There is no argument for why the geth shouldn't have been involved in Andromeda other than "I don't want it". Their suitability is not in question and it's childplay to handwave their contact and inclusion via a third faction.
As to whether they would make the trip on their own or be the prime instigaters behind the AI- ehhh. I think being synthetic, the geth would have even more options for hiding from the Reapers than organics would and thus less incentive to go to a whole other galaxy.
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Post by traks on Feb 9, 2017 18:36:45 GMT
There is no argument for why the geth shouldn't have been involved in Andromeda other than "I don't want it". Their suitability is not in question and it's childplay to handwave their contact and inclusion via a third faction. As to whether they would make the trip on their own or be the prime instigaters behind the AI- ehhh. I think being synthetic, the geth would have even more options for hiding from the Reapers than organics would and thus less incentive to go to a whole other galaxy. Wut? Besides Shepard no one has contact to the Geth at the time the AI leaves, so actually the only reason to see Geth in Andromeda would be because "you want it".
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Feb 9, 2017 18:40:44 GMT
There is no argument for why the geth shouldn't have been involved in Andromeda other than "I don't want it". Mmm... except that at the time of the AI the Geth were, largely, still at war with all organics at behest of the Reapers. The only ones who weren't were technically in a civil war with the ones who were. Shepard was only able to help resolve that towards the end of ME2. Full reconciliation between organics and Geth didn't come until the events of ME3, which was optional and not technically canon. AI was off on their merry way long before any Geth could have been, or would have been, trusted to be a part of any organic projects.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 9, 2017 18:40:46 GMT
There is no argument for why the geth shouldn't have been involved in Andromeda other than "I don't want it". Their suitability is not in question and it's childplay to handwave their contact and inclusion via a third faction.As to whether they would make the trip on their own or be the prime instigaters behind the AI- ehhh. I think being synthetic, the geth would have even more options for hiding from the Reapers than organics would and thus less incentive to go to a whole other galaxy. Wut? Besides Shepard no one has contact to the Geth at the time the AI leaves, so actually the only reason to see Geth in Andromeda would be because "you want it". Maybe you should've bolded the second part of the following sentence which precisely deals with your question. Underlined for your convenience.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 9, 2017 18:44:03 GMT
Mmm... except that at the time of the AI the Geth were, largely, still at war with all organics at behest of the Reapers. The only ones who weren't were technically in a civil war with the ones who were. Shepard was only able to help resolve that towards the end of ME2. Full reconciliation between organics and Geth didn't come until the events of ME3, which was optional and not technically canon. AI was off on their merry way long before any Geth could have been, or would have been, trusted to be a part of any organic projects. See above. Also the geth weren't in "civil war" the True Geth let the Heretics go and didn't much care what they did. The latter conspiring to hack/brainwash the former is another matter, though recall Legion's shock at the notion. If you're not threatening to exterminate them, true geth are really quite peaceful.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Feb 9, 2017 18:46:00 GMT
Mmm... except that at the time of the AI the Geth were, largely, still at war with all organics at behest of the Reapers. The only ones who weren't were technically in a civil war with the ones who were. Shepard was only able to help resolve that towards the end of ME2. Full reconciliation between organics and Geth didn't come until the events of ME3, which was optional and not technically canon. AI was off on their merry way long before any Geth could have been, or would have been, trusted to be a part of any organic projects. See above. Also the geth weren't in "civil war" the True Geth let the Heretics go and didn't much care what they did. The latter conspiring to hack/brainwash the former is another matter, though recall Legion's shock at the notion. If you're not threatening to exterminate them, true geth are really quite peaceful. exactly if you just leave them alone they aren't a problem.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Feb 9, 2017 18:47:57 GMT
Legion did say they had been looking into organics to see their mindset and try to understand it. Also the geth seek knowledge so seeing another galaxy could increase that and get them more resources so maybe they would want it
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Post by shepherdcommander on Feb 9, 2017 18:55:40 GMT
glad to see this has sparked some discussion, looking forward to more. GannayevOfDreams organics would not want geth along for the ride, or on any of their projects as you say, i think most will outright agree with this, but whether the geth would similarly disallow organics is another matter, and that is the point of the geth initiative theory, that it is not an organic project at all.
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Feb 9, 2017 18:59:38 GMT
Mmm... except that at the time of the AI the Geth were, largely, still at war with all organics at behest of the Reapers. The only ones who weren't were technically in a civil war with the ones who were. Shepard was only able to help resolve that towards the end of ME2. Full reconciliation between organics and Geth didn't come until the events of ME3, which was optional and not technically canon. AI was off on their merry way long before any Geth could have been, or would have been, trusted to be a part of any organic projects. See above. I saw it. It just made no sense. Pure supposition on your part. You're preemptively denying refutation of your first argument while providing no examples of why it should be so. That way you don't have to elaborate and have it picked apart.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 9, 2017 19:02:39 GMT
Mac Walters said they have a plan for all the Milky Way races to be in Andromeda, so I'm hopeful that eventually we'll see the Geth.
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Post by derrame on Feb 9, 2017 19:12:37 GMT
i hope there are geth in Andromeda Legion was a hero, i'd like to see him again, in a new platform
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Post by bshep on Feb 9, 2017 19:17:20 GMT
I saw it. It just made no sense. Pure supposition on your part. You're preemptively denying refutation of your first argument while providing no examples of why it should be so. That way you don't have to elaborate and have it picked apart. Pretty much.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 9, 2017 19:20:10 GMT
I saw it. It just made no sense. Pure supposition on your part. You're preemptively denying refutation of your first argument while providing no examples of why it should be so. That way you don't have to elaborate and have it picked apart. I didn't make an argument. I stated two self-evident facts. Neither of which had any prescriptive real world conclusion (i.e. a should). If you insist though: 1. Given above facts and 2. The difficulty of the AI undertaking requiring every possible advantage 3. the writers should include the geth in the AI in order to plausibly give it every possible advantage via their unique advantages as synthetics. The rebuttal at this stage of course is SAM and AIs like it may already provide said advantages, making the geth redundant. Which is not an argument against their inclusion, merely an argument against their necessity.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 9, 2017 19:32:53 GMT
But your assumption that including the geth was plausible fails, given the dates. A handwave doesn't make plausibility issues go away. It just permits players who want to ignore them to do so.
If you want to sell us on Bio including even more incoherent nonsense in the MEU than it already has, you're going to have to work for it.
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Feb 9, 2017 19:33:42 GMT
I saw it. It just made no sense. Pure supposition on your part. You're preemptively denying refutation of your first argument while providing no examples of why it should be so. That way you don't have to elaborate and have it picked apart. I didn't make an argument. I stated two self-evident facts. Neither of which had any prescriptive real world conclusion (i.e. a should). Claiming something is a "self-evident fact" is an implicit argument. One you failed to substantiate, or simply chose not to.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 9, 2017 19:49:47 GMT
A handwave doesn't make plausibility issues go away. It just permits players who want to ignore them to do so. Well, two things. Either I actually used the incorrect term (I kind of did), or asking me to prove/argue what is by definition, the complete opposite of a proven point and/or giving me shit for not doing so is kind of a fail, in its own right. But, fair point on terminology. My intent wasn't to gloss over plausibility, but to deny it's an issue at all. I suppose I was going for the casual dismissal attitude of the term "handwave", rather than its literal meaning. Claiming something is a "self-evident fact" is an implicit argument. One you failed to substantiate, or simply chose not to. Self Evident- evident without proof or reasoning; clearly true and requiring no proof or explanation So, actually, the exact opposite of an argument, implicit or otherwise.
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Feb 9, 2017 19:56:18 GMT
Claiming something is a "self-evident fact" is an implicit argument. One you failed to substantiate, or simply chose not to. Self Evident- evident without proof or reasoning; clearly true and requiring no proof or explanation So, actually, the exact opposite of an argument, implicit or otherwise. Only applies if everyone agrees it is so. That you were challenged on it proves it isn't "self-evident". It becomes a "fact" only insofar as your perspective is concerned. So, when called on it you can either substantiate it with evidence, or you can ignore and plow ahead assuming no fault. Simply saying "this is self-evident" doesn't make it so.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 9, 2017 20:25:14 GMT
Only applies if everyone agrees it is so. That you were challenged on it proves it isn't "self-evident". It becomes a "fact" only insofar as your perspective is concerned. So, when called on it you can either substantiate it with evidence, or you can ignore and plow ahead assuming no fault. Simply saying "this is self-evident" doesn't make it so. Yeah, let me know when you get "everyone" to agree on anything.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 9, 2017 21:12:25 GMT
But, fair point on terminology. My intent wasn't to gloss over plausibility, but to deny it's an issue at all. I suppose I was going for the casual dismissal attitude of the term "handwave", rather than its literal meaning. OK, I see it. If you're willing to retcon whatever you need to retcon in order to make your scenario plausible, then by definition, plausibility can't be an objection since you're declaring that you want to pay those costs. I'm not willing, and I vote "no." Geth, rachni, and quarians should all stay in the MW. I guess that concludes our interaction here. As for self-evident, isn't that just rhetoric? It worked for Jefferson as a way of declaring his axioms, but if someone doesn't buy the axioms it has no force.
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Post by Abramsrunner on Feb 9, 2017 21:18:29 GMT
As long they don't pretend to have feels, & lie to me again, the toasters can come with.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 9, 2017 21:28:49 GMT
OK, I see it. If you're willing to retcon whatever you need to retcon in order to make your scenario plausible, then by definition, plausibility can't be an objection since you're declaring that you want to pay those costs. I'm not willing, and I vote "no." Geth, rachni, and quarians should all stay in the MW. I guess that concludes our interaction here. As for self-evident, isn't that just rhetoric? It worked for Jefferson as a way of declaring his axioms, but if someone doesn't buy the axioms it has no force. Like the AI itself, it doesn't even need to be a retcon though, not really. It's the same principle. "Not publically known third faction goes to Andromeda"- there is nothing that specifically contradicts that notion. And lack of mention in the original trilogy one way or another is not a contradiction. Same goes for quarians. For the rachni, there I agree with you. Explicitly said to be extinct, even worse rep and barriers to communication than the geth, and much more pressing matters to deal with first even if there was somehow another queen egg. As for self-evident I meant that literally. Like it's so obvious, it doesn't require explanation. If you or others don't "buy into it" that's your choice- but it goes back to what I said about not wanting it.
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Post by ProbeAway on Feb 9, 2017 23:37:41 GMT
OK, I see it. If you're willing to retcon whatever you need to retcon in order to make your scenario plausible, then by definition, plausibility can't be an objection since you're declaring that you want to pay those costs. I'm not willing, and I vote "no." Geth, rachni, and quarians should all stay in the MW. I guess that concludes our interaction here. As for self-evident, isn't that just rhetoric? It worked for Jefferson as a way of declaring his axioms, but if someone doesn't buy the axioms it has no force. Like the AI itself, it doesn't even need to be a retcon though, not really. It's the same principle. "Not publically known third faction goes to Andromeda"- there is nothing that specifically contradicts that notion. And lack of mention in the original trilogy one way or another is not a contradiction. Same goes for quarians. For the rachni, there I agree with you. Explicitly said to be extinct, even worse rep and barriers to communication than the geth, and much more pressing matters to deal with first even if there was somehow another queen egg. As for self-evident I meant that literally. Like it's so obvious, it doesn't require explanation. If you or others don't "buy into it" that's your choice- but it goes back to what I said about not wanting it. Except that at the time the AI leaves (during ME2) the existence of a second Geth faction is not known either. The first any organic learns of the existence of non-hostile Geth is when Shep meets Legion, which happens around the time the AI leaves. You can hand wave anything you want, but that doesn't make it sensible. It's far more logical, based on established lore, that Geth are not involved at all with the AI. Had people known about the Geth schism by say, 2180, then sure, seeeking out the Geth to be part of the AI would be plausible. I accept that there is already plenty of hand waving and lore bending to even get us to Andromeda but adding more is just another kick in the teeth for believability.
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