ryerye17
N3
Biotic God
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
XBL Gamertag: UnrealSteak2197
Posts: 635 Likes: 895
inherit
3393
0
895
ryerye17
Biotic God
635
February 2017
ryerye17
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
UnrealSteak2197
|
Post by ryerye17 on Feb 11, 2017 7:37:12 GMT
Cast your mind back to the days of Dragon Age: Origins, DA2, the entire ME trilogy.
Even at lowest difficulty, the game could get hard if you were underlevelled. You would die if you go to Orzammar first.
Every single mission, even every single DLC, would just boost you up the right amount to take down the Archdemon, Meredith/Orsino, Sarren, the Human/Collector hybrid, etc. You were always in control and your player was always just strong enough (having them level scale is a major component).
Here comes Inquisition, which Andromeda seems to draw a lot from. In Inq, you do not have to visit the Fallow Mire, Storm Coast, Exalted Planes, Emerald Graves, Emprise du Lion, Western Approach, and Forbidden Oasis AT ALL. The Hinterlands, Crestwood, and Western Approach you just have to do a little bit to get the story going.
Eventually when I get to Crestwood, I am pawning everyone. It's just no fun as I get way too overlevelled Corypheus seems like a wuss. DLC did nothing to help as that just made me stronger than I already am. Add the fact that in three playthroughs I rolled as a Knight-Enchanter and you're just handing me the game on a silver platter.
If half the planets of Andromeda are optional, then where's the fun? You're way too overlevelled facing the Archen. I don't know if this is me being old-fashioned, but if you're going to make most of the worlds optional, then at least level scale, ala Skyrim. Or, if they're against level scaling, then at least make all the worlds necessary to complete the game. I don't know where the fascination with "optional content" came from as being way too overlevelled is just not fun.
|
|
inherit
57
0
1
Nov 25, 2024 13:23:36 GMT
35,524
SofaJockey
Not a jockey. Has a sofa.
13,923
August 2016
sofajockey
SofaJockey
SofaJockey
6000
7164
|
Post by SofaJockey on Feb 11, 2017 7:43:22 GMT
Surely, adjusting the difficulty level to taste would address this?
|
|
inherit
1033
0
Nov 26, 2024 18:06:03 GMT
36,912
colfoley
19,129
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Feb 11, 2017 8:05:32 GMT
This is the thing that BioWare kind of fixed at the end of the game, they added challenges so the enemies would always level with you. As far as it goes, now we have not seen too much in depth in the videos, but I have seen NO indication that the bad guys, in the open world, have their own level. So I think they have gone back to the MET and not the DA I way of handling things.
|
|
GannayevOfDreams
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 578 Likes: 1,090
inherit
1509
0
1,090
GannayevOfDreams
578
September 2016
gannayevofdreams
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by GannayevOfDreams on Feb 11, 2017 8:22:25 GMT
The only way level scaling enemies make sense is if you have an evolving and expanding set of tools to deal with them. Combat overall gets more complex, it necessitates more strategy in order to keep it challenging.
From what we've seen you get a very limited skillset to bring into battle. I know they've said there is a way to get more than 3 abilities, but the UI is very clearly designed to have you focus on only about 3 at any given time. If the enemies scale to your level you're never going to feel like your character is getting stronger, and combat will start to feel very tedious without more abilities to play with.
If I remember right, DA:I actually had a bit of a hybrid system. For example; in the Hinterlands you could have packs of enemies spawn at level 5 or 6, and they would scale with you up to about level 8 or 9. Then they would be capped at a set maximum. I think this is important because it allows for better pacing on the challenge of the area when the content is story-relevant, but doesn't allow it to be too much of a slog if come back at a higher level to farm mats for stuff.
Enemies always being at your level is going to make farming for crafting materials a real pain in the ass.
|
|
Cypher
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Origin: ItsFreakinJesus
XBL Gamertag: ItsFreakinJesus
PSN: TheMadTitan
Posts: 848 Likes: 1,024
inherit
2419
0
1,024
Cypher
848
December 2016
cypher
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
ItsFreakinJesus
ItsFreakinJesus
TheMadTitan
|
Post by Cypher on Feb 11, 2017 8:24:21 GMT
I grew up on JRPGs, so I love the whole "I spent too much time in one place and now I'm a god in this new place" aspect. However, Inquisition did scaling pretty well, with the enemies locked to a specific block of levels. Regardless, Mass Effect needs some form of level scaling for the simple fact that its combat is based around third person shooting. Without enemies tracking along with you, everything would fall in one shot by the end of the game, and you can't build a competent shooter around that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
47
0
Nov 26, 2024 18:40:36 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 26, 2024 18:40:36 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 8:24:30 GMT
With side-quests and optional activities providing tons of experience and loot to make your game easy, I would think that it is only a sensible decision to put level-scaling into the main quests. There are people against it but in truth it just prevent you getting punished with an easier game because you bothered doing all side activities before finishing the main game (which I always do btw). I think level scaling should be a thing for the main quests at least.
|
|
chawk84
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: CHawk84
Posts: 25 Likes: 18
inherit
3125
0
18
chawk84
25
January 2017
chawk84
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
CHawk84
|
Post by chawk84 on Feb 11, 2017 8:43:28 GMT
With side-quests and optional activities providing tons of experience and loot to make your game easy, I would think that it is only a sensible decision to put level-scaling into the main quests. There are people against it but in truth it just prevent you getting punished with an easier game because you bothered doing all side activities before finishing the main game (which I always do btw). I think level scaling should be a thing for the main quests at least. agreed, I'm not too worried about it tbh.
|
|
lastpawn
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 221 Likes: 224
inherit
2914
0
224
lastpawn
221
Jan 20, 2017 15:07:50 GMT
January 2017
lastpawn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by lastpawn on Feb 11, 2017 10:46:26 GMT
It doesn't make sense to compare DA and ME games like this. Enemies in Mass Effect have scaled since ME1. Probably most noticeable in ME3, since you could start at Level 1 or Level 30. There's no reason at all to change it now.
So not an issue...
|
|
sinkingfish
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 58 Likes: 48
inherit
2577
0
Jun 14, 2017 11:23:35 GMT
48
sinkingfish
58
January 2017
sinkingfish
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
|
Post by sinkingfish on Feb 11, 2017 10:57:18 GMT
I think they should ditch the level scaling altogether and have set levels. Certain planets should have enemies or creatures way above your level so that certain death awaits you until you are a high enough level. A bit like the high dragon or whatever it was called in the Hinterlands.
|
|
stysiaq
N3
Gigavorcha Breeder
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Origin: Stysiaq
Posts: 839 Likes: 2,133
inherit
64
0
Aug 10, 2017 10:02:31 GMT
2,133
stysiaq
Gigavorcha Breeder
839
August 2016
stysiaq
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Stysiaq
|
Post by stysiaq on Feb 11, 2017 11:19:58 GMT
Level scaling is generally a pretty poor concept in my opinion when it allows the player to progress in the main storyline without seeing large portions of the game. I liked what Witcher 3 did, but their approach had some major flaws too (a monster 1 level too high and you can never kill it). But I very much like fixed difficultyh level; it makes you feel good when you clear area when being "underleveled" especially if it makes you get some loot that you weren't supposed to get until much later.
|
|
inherit
738
0
4,633
Link"Guess"ski
3,882
August 2016
linkenski
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Linkenski
asblinkenski
Linkenski
|
Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 11, 2017 14:28:03 GMT
Surely, adjusting the difficulty level to taste would address this? Nightmare difficulty in DA:I felt like "Normal" in DA:O, so I'm not so sure.
|
|
DayusMakhina
N3
It's phonetic.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
XBL Gamertag: DayusMakhina
PSN: DayusMakhina
Posts: 262 Likes: 371
inherit
2939
0
May 26, 2021 19:28:59 GMT
371
DayusMakhina
It's phonetic.
262
Jan 22, 2017 11:07:46 GMT
January 2017
dayusmakhina
Mass Effect Trilogy
DayusMakhina
DayusMakhina
|
Post by DayusMakhina on Feb 11, 2017 15:14:12 GMT
I think they should ditch the level scaling altogether and have set levels. Certain planets should have enemies or creatures way above your level so that certain death awaits you until you are a high enough level. A bit like the high dragon or whatever it was called in the Hinterlands. They've already said there will be tough enemies that you find whilst exploring that you'll most likely have no chance to defeat the first time you see them and will have to come back to take them out once you've levelled up. Most likely like that mechanical snake we saw in one of the trailers. Not overly sure how that is going to work though considering for the most part levelling is quite quick and basic in ME.
|
|
inherit
Lightning Conductor
170
0
3,653
hammerstorm
1,656
August 2016
hammerstorm
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Hammerst0rm
|
Post by hammerstorm on Feb 11, 2017 15:21:08 GMT
I don't know about the rest, but for me the point of "optional" areas is that I can make a character that don't do everything all the time. So if i want to do a completionist PT, I can, but I don't have to just to clear the game. About levels, I'm not to bothered by it. If I'm overleveled I get to feel like a God, but if not I get to show the enemies that I am better anyway. But I must admit that I like to be OP sometimes
|
|
inherit
3439
0
Member is Online
Nov 26, 2024 18:36:47 GMT
9,670
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
8,060
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Feb 11, 2017 18:08:08 GMT
Cast your mind back to the days of Dragon Age: Origins, DA2, the entire ME trilogy. Even at lowest difficulty, the game could get hard if you were underlevelled. You would die if you go to Orzammar first. This is DA:O doing exactly the same thing DAI did, of course. The reason Orzammar worked like that is that it didn't scale down. It's the equivalent of going to Emprise du Lion right after Skyhold. And Orzammar can be done first in DA:O, though I'd probably skip difficulty mods if I was going that route. If you're not finding this playstyle fun, why are you using it?
|
|
inherit
Now with HESH rounds!
912
0
6,638
The Biotic Trebuchet
Stolen by inquisition forces.
2,616
Aug 11, 2016 22:59:51 GMT
August 2016
thebioticbread
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Trebuchet_MkIV
[(e^x )- 4]
69
|
Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Feb 11, 2017 18:12:15 GMT
MET was pretty easy in any difficulty, now DAO, and using a warrior oh boi...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
2540
0
Nov 26, 2024 18:40:36 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 26, 2024 18:40:36 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 18:12:49 GMT
I don't know about the rest, but for me the point of "optional" areas is that I can make a character that don't do everything all the time. So if i want to do a completionist PT, I can, but I don't have to just to clear the game. About levels, I'm not to bothered by it. If I'm overleveled I get to feel like a God, but if not I get to show the enemies that I am better anyway. But I must admit that I like to be OP sometimes Overpowered?
|
|
Abramsrunner
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
Origin: Abramsrunner
Posts: 765 Likes: 3,906
inherit
152
0
3,906
Abramsrunner
765
August 2016
abramsrunner
Mass Effect Trilogy
Abramsrunner
|
Post by Abramsrunner on Feb 11, 2017 18:13:41 GMT
ME3 was easy on Insanity, even starting from level 1.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
3344
0
Nov 26, 2024 18:40:36 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 26, 2024 18:40:36 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 18:33:26 GMT
Never bothered me. Now level scaling in Oblivion was the stuff of nightmares, but I never had any troubles with the other games, so DAI didn't feel different to me. I just spread everything out and found a balance that worked.
|
|
inherit
57
0
1
Nov 25, 2024 13:23:36 GMT
35,524
SofaJockey
Not a jockey. Has a sofa.
13,923
August 2016
sofajockey
SofaJockey
SofaJockey
6000
7164
|
Post by SofaJockey on Feb 11, 2017 18:50:26 GMT
Playing a ton of multiplayer certainly made single player feel much easier to me, which is not a complaint, simply an experience.
|
|
inherit
Korean Supermodel
1
0
1
7,464
Cyonan
2,189
Jul 31, 2016 20:55:30 GMT
July 2016
admin
Cyonan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Cyonan
|
Post by Cyonan on Feb 11, 2017 19:58:00 GMT
If the power curve is similar to Mass Effect 2 or 3, then enemies will still be able to be a threat to even a higher level Ryder because those games didn't scale your power up with each level nearly as much as Dragon Age does.
In that case the most important thing to ensure we don't become overpowered gods is to just not make the game as easy as Mass Effect 3 was on insanity. Especially with a cheese setup like Nova spam on the Vanguard, you were essentially unkillable from even a low level in Mass Effect 3. Not even the Citadel DLC mirror match with all penalties turned on gave me much trouble on my Vanguard.
You really need to be careful about handing the player a spammable ability with immunity frames on it.
|
|
inherit
3318
0
3,812
Psychevore
1,584
February 2017
psychevore
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Psychevore on Feb 11, 2017 20:10:56 GMT
I think vastly overleveling is kinda the point of RPGs. If a game allows me to do so, I will.
That being said, the ME games were never hard, on any difficulty. It's also not really what I'm looking for in these kind of RPGs. Difficulty is more for the Pillars of Eternity kind of games.
|
|
inherit
3318
0
3,812
Psychevore
1,584
February 2017
psychevore
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Psychevore on Feb 11, 2017 20:13:37 GMT
ME3 was easy on Insanity, even starting from level 1. All the games were kind of easy on insanity, unless you willingly hampered yourself. Like not usings biotics in ME1, for example.
|
|
Cypher
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Origin: ItsFreakinJesus
XBL Gamertag: ItsFreakinJesus
PSN: TheMadTitan
Posts: 848 Likes: 1,024
inherit
2419
0
1,024
Cypher
848
December 2016
cypher
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
ItsFreakinJesus
ItsFreakinJesus
TheMadTitan
|
Post by Cypher on Feb 11, 2017 21:09:47 GMT
I should rephrase and say that certain elements of wildlife shouldn't scale. Some random ass goat should be tough in the beginning, because the rationale would be that Ryder doesn't have experience fighting goats and isn't good at it. Twenty-five hours into the game, the goat should go down pretty quick, because it's a goat.
Regular enemies should scale based on their enemy type; random ass thugs or anarchists should stop being on par at some point because they'd be untrained in comparison and should make up their difficulty in their numbers. Competent enemies, be it gang members or the Kett, should remain difficult all the way through.
|
|
inherit
Lightning Conductor
170
0
3,653
hammerstorm
1,656
August 2016
hammerstorm
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Hammerst0rm
|
Post by hammerstorm on Feb 11, 2017 21:35:59 GMT
I should rephrase and say that certain elements of wildlife shouldn't scale. Some random ass goat should be tough in the beginning, because the rationale would be that Ryder doesn't have experience fighting goats and isn't good at it. Twenty-five hours into the game, the goat should go down pretty quick, because it's a goat. Regular enemies should scale based on their enemy type; random ass thugs or anarchists should stop being on par at some point because they'd be untrained in comparison and should make up their difficulty in their numbers. Competent enemies, be it gang members or the Kett, should remain difficult all the way through. I present you the Secret boss on one of the planets: The Goat!! Preeeeepareee to dieeeee!
|
|
Adhin
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 512 Likes: 523
inherit
996
0
Sept 3, 2017 12:01:10 GMT
523
Adhin
512
Aug 15, 2016 13:14:38 GMT
August 2016
adhin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Adhin on Feb 11, 2017 21:49:08 GMT
ME2 and 3 both had static health values for Shepard. There was no major statistical growth from 1 to 20 (or 60). Biggest change was just how many skills/how well upgraded they where. They definitely make a difference, you can see that in ME3MP for sure. Lvl 1 vs lvl 12-ish is a pretty huge jump but that tends to level out pretty quickly.
So... no, not really. Add to that some minor enemy scaling to match your levels (to some extent, enemy wouldn't need as big of a change as your levels could allow) and... yup. Not really something I'd consider an issue.
Dragon Age (or ME1) are bad examples to look at for this due to 'all the things changing' per level.
|
|