ryerye17
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Post by ryerye17 on Feb 11, 2017 7:37:12 GMT
Cast your mind back to the days of Dragon Age: Origins, DA2, the entire ME trilogy.
Even at lowest difficulty, the game could get hard if you were underlevelled. You would die if you go to Orzammar first.
Every single mission, even every single DLC, would just boost you up the right amount to take down the Archdemon, Meredith/Orsino, Sarren, the Human/Collector hybrid, etc. You were always in control and your player was always just strong enough (having them level scale is a major component).
Here comes Inquisition, which Andromeda seems to draw a lot from. In Inq, you do not have to visit the Fallow Mire, Storm Coast, Exalted Planes, Emerald Graves, Emprise du Lion, Western Approach, and Forbidden Oasis AT ALL. The Hinterlands, Crestwood, and Western Approach you just have to do a little bit to get the story going.
Eventually when I get to Crestwood, I am pawning everyone. It's just no fun as I get way too overlevelled Corypheus seems like a wuss. DLC did nothing to help as that just made me stronger than I already am. Add the fact that in three playthroughs I rolled as a Knight-Enchanter and you're just handing me the game on a silver platter.
If half the planets of Andromeda are optional, then where's the fun? You're way too overlevelled facing the Archen. I don't know if this is me being old-fashioned, but if you're going to make most of the worlds optional, then at least level scale, ala Skyrim. Or, if they're against level scaling, then at least make all the worlds necessary to complete the game. I don't know where the fascination with "optional content" came from as being way too overlevelled is just not fun.
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 11, 2017 7:43:22 GMT
Surely, adjusting the difficulty level to taste would address this?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 11, 2017 8:05:32 GMT
This is the thing that BioWare kind of fixed at the end of the game, they added challenges so the enemies would always level with you. As far as it goes, now we have not seen too much in depth in the videos, but I have seen NO indication that the bad guys, in the open world, have their own level. So I think they have gone back to the MET and not the DA I way of handling things.
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GannayevOfDreams
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Feb 11, 2017 8:22:25 GMT
The only way level scaling enemies make sense is if you have an evolving and expanding set of tools to deal with them. Combat overall gets more complex, it necessitates more strategy in order to keep it challenging.
From what we've seen you get a very limited skillset to bring into battle. I know they've said there is a way to get more than 3 abilities, but the UI is very clearly designed to have you focus on only about 3 at any given time. If the enemies scale to your level you're never going to feel like your character is getting stronger, and combat will start to feel very tedious without more abilities to play with.
If I remember right, DA:I actually had a bit of a hybrid system. For example; in the Hinterlands you could have packs of enemies spawn at level 5 or 6, and they would scale with you up to about level 8 or 9. Then they would be capped at a set maximum. I think this is important because it allows for better pacing on the challenge of the area when the content is story-relevant, but doesn't allow it to be too much of a slog if come back at a higher level to farm mats for stuff.
Enemies always being at your level is going to make farming for crafting materials a real pain in the ass.
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Cypher
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Post by Cypher on Feb 11, 2017 8:24:21 GMT
I grew up on JRPGs, so I love the whole "I spent too much time in one place and now I'm a god in this new place" aspect. However, Inquisition did scaling pretty well, with the enemies locked to a specific block of levels. Regardless, Mass Effect needs some form of level scaling for the simple fact that its combat is based around third person shooting. Without enemies tracking along with you, everything would fall in one shot by the end of the game, and you can't build a competent shooter around that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 8:24:30 GMT
With side-quests and optional activities providing tons of experience and loot to make your game easy, I would think that it is only a sensible decision to put level-scaling into the main quests. There are people against it but in truth it just prevent you getting punished with an easier game because you bothered doing all side activities before finishing the main game (which I always do btw). I think level scaling should be a thing for the main quests at least.
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chawk84
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Post by chawk84 on Feb 11, 2017 8:43:28 GMT
With side-quests and optional activities providing tons of experience and loot to make your game easy, I would think that it is only a sensible decision to put level-scaling into the main quests. There are people against it but in truth it just prevent you getting punished with an easier game because you bothered doing all side activities before finishing the main game (which I always do btw). I think level scaling should be a thing for the main quests at least. agreed, I'm not too worried about it tbh.
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lastpawn
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Post by lastpawn on Feb 11, 2017 10:46:26 GMT
It doesn't make sense to compare DA and ME games like this. Enemies in Mass Effect have scaled since ME1. Probably most noticeable in ME3, since you could start at Level 1 or Level 30. There's no reason at all to change it now.
So not an issue...
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 11, 2017 10:57:18 GMT
I think they should ditch the level scaling altogether and have set levels. Certain planets should have enemies or creatures way above your level so that certain death awaits you until you are a high enough level. A bit like the high dragon or whatever it was called in the Hinterlands.
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Post by stysiaq on Feb 11, 2017 11:19:58 GMT
Level scaling is generally a pretty poor concept in my opinion when it allows the player to progress in the main storyline without seeing large portions of the game. I liked what Witcher 3 did, but their approach had some major flaws too (a monster 1 level too high and you can never kill it). But I very much like fixed difficultyh level; it makes you feel good when you clear area when being "underleveled" especially if it makes you get some loot that you weren't supposed to get until much later.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 11, 2017 14:28:03 GMT
Surely, adjusting the difficulty level to taste would address this? Nightmare difficulty in DA:I felt like "Normal" in DA:O, so I'm not so sure.
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DayusMakhina
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Post by DayusMakhina on Feb 11, 2017 15:14:12 GMT
I think they should ditch the level scaling altogether and have set levels. Certain planets should have enemies or creatures way above your level so that certain death awaits you until you are a high enough level. A bit like the high dragon or whatever it was called in the Hinterlands. They've already said there will be tough enemies that you find whilst exploring that you'll most likely have no chance to defeat the first time you see them and will have to come back to take them out once you've levelled up. Most likely like that mechanical snake we saw in one of the trailers. Not overly sure how that is going to work though considering for the most part levelling is quite quick and basic in ME.
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Post by hammerstorm on Feb 11, 2017 15:21:08 GMT
I don't know about the rest, but for me the point of "optional" areas is that I can make a character that don't do everything all the time. So if i want to do a completionist PT, I can, but I don't have to just to clear the game. About levels, I'm not to bothered by it. If I'm overleveled I get to feel like a God, but if not I get to show the enemies that I am better anyway. But I must admit that I like to be OP sometimes
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 11, 2017 18:08:08 GMT
Cast your mind back to the days of Dragon Age: Origins, DA2, the entire ME trilogy. Even at lowest difficulty, the game could get hard if you were underlevelled. You would die if you go to Orzammar first. This is DA:O doing exactly the same thing DAI did, of course. The reason Orzammar worked like that is that it didn't scale down. It's the equivalent of going to Emprise du Lion right after Skyhold. And Orzammar can be done first in DA:O, though I'd probably skip difficulty mods if I was going that route. If you're not finding this playstyle fun, why are you using it?
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Feb 11, 2017 18:12:15 GMT
MET was pretty easy in any difficulty, now DAO, and using a warrior oh boi...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 18:12:49 GMT
I don't know about the rest, but for me the point of "optional" areas is that I can make a character that don't do everything all the time. So if i want to do a completionist PT, I can, but I don't have to just to clear the game. About levels, I'm not to bothered by it. If I'm overleveled I get to feel like a God, but if not I get to show the enemies that I am better anyway. But I must admit that I like to be OP sometimes Overpowered?
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Post by Abramsrunner on Feb 11, 2017 18:13:41 GMT
ME3 was easy on Insanity, even starting from level 1.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 18:33:26 GMT
Never bothered me. Now level scaling in Oblivion was the stuff of nightmares, but I never had any troubles with the other games, so DAI didn't feel different to me. I just spread everything out and found a balance that worked.
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Post by SofaJockey on Feb 11, 2017 18:50:26 GMT
Playing a ton of multiplayer certainly made single player feel much easier to me, which is not a complaint, simply an experience.
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Post by Cyonan on Feb 11, 2017 19:58:00 GMT
If the power curve is similar to Mass Effect 2 or 3, then enemies will still be able to be a threat to even a higher level Ryder because those games didn't scale your power up with each level nearly as much as Dragon Age does.
In that case the most important thing to ensure we don't become overpowered gods is to just not make the game as easy as Mass Effect 3 was on insanity. Especially with a cheese setup like Nova spam on the Vanguard, you were essentially unkillable from even a low level in Mass Effect 3. Not even the Citadel DLC mirror match with all penalties turned on gave me much trouble on my Vanguard.
You really need to be careful about handing the player a spammable ability with immunity frames on it.
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Post by Psychevore on Feb 11, 2017 20:10:56 GMT
I think vastly overleveling is kinda the point of RPGs. If a game allows me to do so, I will.
That being said, the ME games were never hard, on any difficulty. It's also not really what I'm looking for in these kind of RPGs. Difficulty is more for the Pillars of Eternity kind of games.
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Post by Psychevore on Feb 11, 2017 20:13:37 GMT
ME3 was easy on Insanity, even starting from level 1. All the games were kind of easy on insanity, unless you willingly hampered yourself. Like not usings biotics in ME1, for example.
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Post by Cypher on Feb 11, 2017 21:09:47 GMT
I should rephrase and say that certain elements of wildlife shouldn't scale. Some random ass goat should be tough in the beginning, because the rationale would be that Ryder doesn't have experience fighting goats and isn't good at it. Twenty-five hours into the game, the goat should go down pretty quick, because it's a goat.
Regular enemies should scale based on their enemy type; random ass thugs or anarchists should stop being on par at some point because they'd be untrained in comparison and should make up their difficulty in their numbers. Competent enemies, be it gang members or the Kett, should remain difficult all the way through.
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Post by hammerstorm on Feb 11, 2017 21:35:59 GMT
I should rephrase and say that certain elements of wildlife shouldn't scale. Some random ass goat should be tough in the beginning, because the rationale would be that Ryder doesn't have experience fighting goats and isn't good at it. Twenty-five hours into the game, the goat should go down pretty quick, because it's a goat. Regular enemies should scale based on their enemy type; random ass thugs or anarchists should stop being on par at some point because they'd be untrained in comparison and should make up their difficulty in their numbers. Competent enemies, be it gang members or the Kett, should remain difficult all the way through. I present you the Secret boss on one of the planets: The Goat!! Preeeeepareee to dieeeee!
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Adhin
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Post by Adhin on Feb 11, 2017 21:49:08 GMT
ME2 and 3 both had static health values for Shepard. There was no major statistical growth from 1 to 20 (or 60). Biggest change was just how many skills/how well upgraded they where. They definitely make a difference, you can see that in ME3MP for sure. Lvl 1 vs lvl 12-ish is a pretty huge jump but that tends to level out pretty quickly.
So... no, not really. Add to that some minor enemy scaling to match your levels (to some extent, enemy wouldn't need as big of a change as your levels could allow) and... yup. Not really something I'd consider an issue.
Dragon Age (or ME1) are bad examples to look at for this due to 'all the things changing' per level.
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