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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 7:07:20 GMT
I said something in another thread about Ryder dancing basically along the lines of:
"I hope the Ryder siblings have varying degrees of skill, so that one is really good at dancing and one is really bad at it."
After I thought about this statement for awhile, I actually found that I wanted that to be true in more aspects than just dancing. I think it would be really cool if the Ryder siblings had different sets of skills that would be implemented in different ways into the side stories (or even the main story). Now, normally, since both of these characters exist at the same time, I wouldn't feel the need to even bring this up, but since both Ryders can potentially be the protagonist, that would imply that they are interchangeable.
While this makes the most sense from a gameplay perspective, having the same base stats, being able to use the same classes, etc., I think from a story and character perspective it would be far more interesting if they weren't just interchangeable between one another. Ideally in a way that wouldn't affect the gameplay and make the player feel like they had to pick one character for certain in-game advantages.
Like, for example, the dancing thing. Maybe Sara is a great dancer, but Scott has the ol' Shepard Shuffle. Maybe Scott, alternatively, is a good cook, which could be expressed aboard the Tempest, while Sara's attempts result in misery for everyone involved. Maybe Sara was better in school than Scott, and as a result, is seen as the smarter of the two. Maybe one of the siblings is considered the favorite in the eyes of PapaRyder.
Or, for main story examples, perhaps Sara could have insight on certain pieces of tech that Scott would lack due to her backstory, while Scott would be more militarily inclined, having more of a "boots on the ground" way of thinking. This wouldn't affect the dialogue options available to the player either way, but would add some "flavor" to the protagonists that separate them from one another.
Maybe Bioware is already planning things like this, maybe not, but since the main character isn't always their own character, but one of two siblings (unlike Hawke), I think it's important to differentiate themselves. What do you think, BSN? Would you prefer they be interchangeable so that you don't risk missing out on any kind of unique dialogue by playing as a certain character, or would you like to see them be more independent as characters?
If so, what other examples do you think could serve to differentiate the two? Discuss.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:05:55 GMT
I would hate it... what if you only like to play as one gender and you would prefer Scott with science background (or vice versa)? Then, you are forced to play as the other sibling, too, although you don't actually want to... Yes, in former Mass Effect games Shepard had a set personality, too, but at least his personality didn't vary in the gender you played...For me, it's far easier to accept personality limitations if they're not based on a certain gender I picked. Otherwise I get a feeling of "near enough is not good enough"... it would feel as if I finally have the chance to play the personality I ever wanted (for example a nerdy character) but can't make use of it, because I prefer to play the wrong gender...
I would have preferred to be able to choose my background and the sibling NPC to get the other background that I didn't picked.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 14, 2017 9:09:13 GMT
Would hate that sort of forced heavy handed characterisation.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:14:33 GMT
I would hate it... what if you only like to play as one gender and you would prefer Scott with science background (or vice versa)? Then, you are forced to play as the other sibling, too, although you don't actually want to... Yes, in former Mass Effect games Shepard had a set personality, too, but at least his personality didn't vary in the gender you played...For me, it's far easier to accept personality limitations if they're not based on a certain gender I picked. Otherwise I get a feeling of "near enough is not good enough"... it would feel as if I finally have the chance to play the personality I ever wanted (for example a nerdy character) but can't make use of it, because I prefer to play the wrong gender... I would have preferred to be able to choose my background and the sibling NPC to get the other background that I didn't picked. Well, Scott and Sara already do have preset backgrounds, so I'm sorry to say you're already out of luck in that department. What I was suggesting, however, isn't personality related. Cooking or dancing skill has nothing to do with personality. They're just skills. And they're skills that aren't important to the game too. I know you wrote a lot there, and I want to respond to all of it, but I think you misunderstood what I was actually asking for.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:15:01 GMT
Would hate that sort of forced heavy handed characterisation. But it has nothing to do with personality and Shepard had tons of it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:22:18 GMT
I would hate it... what if you only like to play as one gender and you would prefer Scott with science background (or vice versa)? Then, you are forced to play as the other sibling, too, although you don't actually want to... Yes, in former Mass Effect games Shepard had a set personality, too, but at least his personality didn't vary in the gender you played...For me, it's far easier to accept personality limitations if they're not based on a certain gender I picked. Otherwise I get a feeling of "near enough is not good enough"... it would feel as if I finally have the chance to play the personality I ever wanted (for example a nerdy character) but can't make use of it, because I prefer to play the wrong gender... I would have preferred to be able to choose my background and the sibling NPC to get the other background that I didn't picked. Well, Scott and Sara already do have preset backgrounds, so I'm sorry to say you're already out of luck in that department. What I was suggesting, however, isn't personality related. Cooking or dancing skill has nothing to do with personality. They're just skills. And they're skills that aren't important to the game too. I know you wrote a lot there, and I want to respond to all of it, but I think you misunderstood what I was actually asking for. I know I'm out of luck...and yes, I hate it. And having different personalities would be even worse than different skills... What if you prefer to play as a cute nerdy and shy character but only your sibling will have this personality? For me it's easier to accept certain limitations if I know that they're aren't based on my gender. Otherwise I'm always reminded that I could have them if I was only able to play as the other gender, too. They could have give you the choice of choosing a certain background (with personality) and give your sibling the other background (and personality) that you didn't picked...but no, everything is based on the gender I pick...that sucks.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:26:00 GMT
Well, Scott and Sara already do have preset backgrounds, so I'm sorry to say you're already out of luck in that department. What I was suggesting, however, isn't personality related. Cooking or dancing skill has nothing to do with personality. They're just skills. And they're skills that aren't important to the game too. I know you wrote a lot there, and I want to respond to all of it, but I think you misunderstood what I was actually asking for. I know I'm out of luck...and yes, I hate it. And having different personalities would be even worse than different skills... What if you prefer to play as a cute nerdy and shy character but only your sibling will have this personality? For me it's easier to accept certain limitations if I know that they're aren't based on my gender. Otherwise I'm always reminded that I could have them if I was only able to play as the other gender, too. I agree, that's why I didn't ask for different personalities, lol. But to be fair, I think you can probably still do that. Scott and Sara have preset backstories, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have preset personalities. You can make them act however you want them to. Scott can be a macho soldier, a naive soldier, a dopey soldier, etc. Sara can be a shy scientist, a tough scientist, a goofy scientist, etc. It does suck that you can't choose where they're from, but I don't think that'll effect how they act. That's still up to you, I think.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:30:09 GMT
I know I'm out of luck...and yes, I hate it. And having different personalities would be even worse than different skills... What if you prefer to play as a cute nerdy and shy character but only your sibling will have this personality? For me it's easier to accept certain limitations if I know that they're aren't based on my gender. Otherwise I'm always reminded that I could have them if I was only able to play as the other gender, too. I agree, that's why I didn't ask for different personalities, lol. But to be fair, I think you can probably still do that. Scott and Sara have preset backstories, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have preset personalities. You can make them act however you want them to. Scott can be a macho soldier, a naive soldier, a dopey soldier, etc. Sara can be a shy scientist, a tough scientist, a goofy scientist, etc. It does suck that you can't choose where they're from, but I don't think that'll effect how they act. That's still up to you, I think. But I don't want to be a soldier again...I already had Shepard in three games. : ( I really wanted a character who's interested in science this time....Okay, both of them are soldiers, but still...I always wanted a character in Bioware games who's a scientist or at least interested in those fields...it would be very disappointing if Sara turns out to be the science expert that I always wanted to be for so many games....
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:36:40 GMT
and to be honest, I do think that there are personality differences between the siblings...there are at least differences in the way the characters express certain feelings... and I think that's related to our background as well... It won't be detached from that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:40:20 GMT
@liarashepard Maybe Scott can take an interest in that stuff. I imagine you'll be able to say how you feel about various subjects. Those personality differences are most likely the voice actors though, since they obviously can't both be the same exact person.
We'll see how it goes. I know it sucks, but we might be surprised.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:49:06 GMT
hmm... I don't know.. I really hope there aren't too many differences, but skills and personality seem somewhat related. I can't imagine a physical aggressive, extravert, sensorial scientist or a soft, shy, sensitive, intuitive soldier... I mean it could be possible but it feels strange. I always have the Myers Briggs Type indicator in mind when thinking of that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 9:55:12 GMT
hmm... I don't know.. I really hope there aren't too many differences, but skills and personality seem somewhat related. I can't imagine a physical aggressive, extravert, sensorial scientist or a soft, shy, sensitive, intuitive soldier... I mean it could be possible but it feels strange. I always have the Myers Briggs Type indicator in mind when thinking of that. Really? I dunno, soldiers and scientists come in all shapes and sizes. They might be in the same professions, but they each bring something different to the table. I know Tali wasn't strictly a soldier, but she was in combat, and look at her. All you really need to be a military guy is to know how to shoot a gun and take orders. All you need to be a scientist is to be good at critical thinking and be able to study things. Those traits aren't especially attached to personality. As long as you have the necessary skills to join a field, it doesn't really matter what kind of person you are. Scott could be a really sensitive and thoughtful soldier, while Sara could be an exceptionally brash and aggressive scientist.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 10:04:06 GMT
hmm... I don't know.. I really hope there aren't too many differences, but skills and personality seem somewhat related. I can't imagine a physical aggressive, extravert, sensorial scientist or a soft, shy, sensitive, intuitive soldier... I mean it could be possible but it feels strange. I always have the Myers Briggs Type indicator in mind when thinking of that. Really? I dunno, soldiers and scientists come in all shapes and sizes. They might be in the same professions, but they each bring something different to the table. I know Tali wasn't strictly a soldier, but she was in combat, and look at her. All you really need to be a military guy is to know how to shoot a gun and take orders. All you need to be a scientist is to be good at critical thinking and be able to study things. Those traits aren't especially attached to personality. As long as you have the necessary skills to join a field, it doesn't really matter what kind of person you are. Scott could be a really sensitive and thoughtful soldier, while Sara could be an exceptionally brash and aggressive scientist. but as you've already stated...she's not a soldier, she's more like a sciene geek... and she actually fulfills the stereotype of a scientist...cute, nerdy, intelligent, a bit clumsy... I have problems to imagine a cute, nerdy, sensitive soldier though... but maybe it's just me. I know there are exceptions but most people choose the profession that fits their personality the most. And I don't think a shy, nerdy, sensitive person would choose to be a soldier in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 10:14:59 GMT
Really? I dunno, soldiers and scientists come in all shapes and sizes. They might be in the same professions, but they each bring something different to the table. I know Tali wasn't strictly a soldier, but she was in combat, and look at her. All you really need to be a military guy is to know how to shoot a gun and take orders. All you need to be a scientist is to be good at critical thinking and be able to study things. Those traits aren't especially attached to personality. As long as you have the necessary skills to join a field, it doesn't really matter what kind of person you are. Scott could be a really sensitive and thoughtful soldier, while Sara could be an exceptionally brash and aggressive scientist. but as you've already stated...she's not a soldier, she's more like a sciene geek... and she actually fulfills the stereotype of a scientist...cute, nerdy, intelligent, sensitive... I have problems to imagine a cute, nerdy, sensitive soldier though... but maybe it's just me. I know there are exceptions but most people choose the profession that fits their personality the most. And I don't think a shy, nerdy, sensitive person would choose to be a soldier in the first place. I dunno, she might actually not be very interested in science, if you wanted to make her that way. I bet there's probably at least one conversation where someone asks Ryder why he/she became a soldier/scientist, and you can probably come up with a few different reasons. As for her fulfilling the scientist, I'm not sure I get what you mean. In the one trailer with Sara as the protagonist we saw, she disarmed someone and held her at gunpoint. That's not very cute, nerdy, or shy. I think someone who was nerdy, cute, and shy would become a soldier if it matched up with their ideals. That's much more closely tied to personality, I feel. Maybe they thought it was the best thing they could do. Maybe it was the only option available to them in the moment. Maybe they were just doing what they were doing because PapaRyder wanted them to. I think you can make your Ryder however you want them to be. The possibilities aren't endless, sure, but I bet you can get something close. Besides, it's not like either of them were really in any wars or anything. They're unproven nobodies in Andromeda, remember? Neither of them are famous, or experts in their respective fields.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 10:35:34 GMT
but as you've already stated...she's not a soldier, she's more like a sciene geek... and she actually fulfills the stereotype of a scientist...cute, nerdy, intelligent, sensitive... I have problems to imagine a cute, nerdy, sensitive soldier though... but maybe it's just me. I know there are exceptions but most people choose the profession that fits their personality the most. And I don't think a shy, nerdy, sensitive person would choose to be a soldier in the first place. I dunno, she might actually not be very interested in science, if you wanted to make her that way. I bet there's probably at least one conversation where someone asks Ryder why he/she became a soldier/scientist, and you can probably come up with a few different reasons. As for her fulfilling the scientist, I'm not sure I get what you mean. In the one trailer with Sara as the protagonist we saw, she disarmed someone and held her at gunpoint. That's not very cute, nerdy, or shy. I think someone who was nerdy, cute, and shy would become a soldier if it matched up with their ideals. That's much more closely tied to personality, I feel. Maybe they thought it was the best thing they could do. Maybe it was the only option available to them in the moment. Maybe they were just doing what they were doing because PapaRyder wanted them to. I think you can make your Ryder however you want them to be. The possibilities aren't endless, sure, but I bet you can get something close. Besides, it's not like either of them were really in any wars or anything. They're unproven nobodies in Andromeda, remember? Neither of them are famous, or experts in their respective fields. I think it's easier for me to imagine an optionally agressive Sara than a shy, sensitive or cute Scott, because Sara is a soldier and probably also a science supporter, because there's stated that she really loves the work with scientists. So I think she has interest in both fields and it depends on the player whether you want to be more soldier like oder more nerdy like. It actually makes sense that she has characteristics that fit her background as a science supporter and her other background as a soldier... You could play her more aggressive because she's a soldier and used to violence, but you could also make her shyer because she also likes sciences and maybe even prefers her work with scientists compared to her life as a soldier. Both of it makes sense. But Scotts background only gives the impression that he's a soldier and wants to go an adventures...I just can't imagine him cute, shy, sensitive, intuitive or whatever...because well, he's just a soldier.... I don't see another field included in his background. But as I said, maybe it's just me... (sorry, my English sucks)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 10:39:09 GMT
I dunno, she might actually not be very interested in science, if you wanted to make her that way. I bet there's probably at least one conversation where someone asks Ryder why he/she became a soldier/scientist, and you can probably come up with a few different reasons. As for her fulfilling the scientist, I'm not sure I get what you mean. In the one trailer with Sara as the protagonist we saw, she disarmed someone and held her at gunpoint. That's not very cute, nerdy, or shy. I think someone who was nerdy, cute, and shy would become a soldier if it matched up with their ideals. That's much more closely tied to personality, I feel. Maybe they thought it was the best thing they could do. Maybe it was the only option available to them in the moment. Maybe they were just doing what they were doing because PapaRyder wanted them to. I think you can make your Ryder however you want them to be. The possibilities aren't endless, sure, but I bet you can get something close. Besides, it's not like either of them were really in any wars or anything. They're unproven nobodies in Andromeda, remember? Neither of them are famous, or experts in their respective fields. I think it's easier for me to imagine an optionally agressive Sara than a shy, sensitive or cute Scott, because Sara is a soldier and probably also a science supporter, because there's stated that she really loves the work with scientists. So I think she has interest in both fields and it depends on the player whether you want to be more soldier like oder more nerdy like. It actually makes sense that she has characteristics that fit her background as a science supporter and her other background as a soldier... You could play her more aggressive because she's a soldier and used to violence, but you could also make her shyer because she also likes sciences and maybe even prefers her work with scientists compared to her life as a soldier. Both of it makes sense. But Scotts background only gives the impression that he's a soldier and wants to go an adventures...I just can't imagine him cute, shy, sensitive, intuitive or whatever...because well, he's just a soldier.... I don't see another field included in his background. But as I said, maybe it's just me... Well, I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong, but I come from a military family, and while my dad is exactly like what you described a soldier to be, my mother is not, and my grandfather is one of the nicest people I know. I hope you're able to roleplay the character you want though.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 10:46:54 GMT
@liarashepard Oh, and your English is quite good, don't worry about it. I understand what you mean.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 14, 2017 11:17:13 GMT
Would hate that sort of forced heavy handed characterisation. But it has nothing to do with personality and Shepard had tons of it? Shep certainly prior to ME3 was free of much pre-definition, certainly prior to the horrible third installment outside of the very broad brush strokes, spacer, war hero etc. I certainly don’t want one character pre-defined as thicker and the other smarter, one militarily inclined whilst the other has a tech interest. Even which sibling is favourite affects our ability to characterise the relationship with the father with any freedom. These are the sort of things that should be for the player to define. Even something as simple as Shep’s dancing wasn’t a character trait originally but more a meta reaction to how the dancing was poorly implemented. Even in this situation where a trait opinion is voiced at end of 3 game series it doesn’t necessarily mean that the player’s shep accept’s this view of their dancing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 11:25:11 GMT
But it has nothing to do with personality and Shepard had tons of it? Shep certainly prior to ME3 was free of much pre-definition, certainly prior to the horrible third installment outside of the very broad brush strokes, spacer, war hero etc. I certainly don’t want one character pre-defined as thicker and the other smarter, one militarily inclined whilst the other has a tech interest. Even which sibling is favourite affects our ability to characterise the relationship with the father with any freedom. These are the sort of things that should be for the player to define. Even something as simple as Shep’s dancing wasn’t a character trait originally but more a meta reaction to how the dancing was poorly implemented. Even in this situation where a trait opinion is voiced at end of 3 game series it doesn’t necessarily mean that the player’s shep accept’s this view of their dancing. No, Shep most certainly has a very clear cut personality in the Mass Effect games. The only thing you really have any control over is whether or not he's an asshole sometimes. Especially regarding ME2 and Cerberus. Scott would have less science jargon because he's not a scientist. Shepard knows military jargon because he's a soldier. How is that any different? Bioware characters have backstories, ALWAYS. This has never not been the case when referring to Mass Effect or Dragon Age. It wouldn't limit you in any way that it hasn't limited you in the past. Shepard didn't have any interactions with family in the OT, so you're not losing anything there. Not to mention the fact that DadRyder is more than likely going to die. And a preestablished relationship has no bearing on how the player chooses to react after the fact. What? Shepard is a bad dancer. That is a trait that is a part of Shepard. There's no wiggle room there.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 14, 2017 11:55:26 GMT
No, Shep most certainly has a very clear cut personality in the Mass Effect games. The only thing you really have any control over is whether or not he's an asshole sometimes. Especially regarding ME2 and Cerberus. Scott would have less science jargon because he's not a scientist. Shepard knows military jargon because he's a soldier. How is that any different? Bioware characters have backstories, ALWAYS. This has never not been the case when referring to Mass Effect or Dragon Age. It wouldn't limit you in any way that it hasn't limited you in the past. Shepard didn't have any interactions with family in the OT, so you're not losing anything there. Not to mention the fact that DadRyder is more than likely going to die. And a preestablished relationship has no bearing on how the player chooses to react after the fact. What? Shepard is a bad dancer. That is a trait that is a part of Shepard. There's no wiggle room there. Don't agree player had lots of room over Shep personality. Both Ryder’s are Alliance soldiers so both should have military jargon, neither are scientists. Just because one of them spent time guarding some scientists on a posting shouldn’t specify that ryder extra interest. If there’s a specific reference to that posting(the work of a specific scientist they encountered that is understandable as with the background specific missions in ME1) but not interest in science that either could harbour. Bioware characters typcially have vague backstories. Fixing traits based on these backstories would of course be much more limiting step than having a vague origin/background. A pre established nature of the father – son/daughter dynamic does completely have a bearing on how player is able to envision their character and react after the fact of their death.(you are also making a massive assumption that daddy will die early). No bad dancing was not a deliberate trait established when they created the character of Shep. It is a reaction to how dancing was coded in the earlier games. Only in the final game does it across cross the barrier into the game when Jack actually use that to say he/she is a bad dancer. Still there is of course wiggle room in terms of Shep’s own opinion of his/her own dancing.
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Post by Vall on Feb 14, 2017 12:54:59 GMT
As far as differences between siblings go, it seems that it won't be much more than it was in trilogy where m!Shep was expresionless boring stoic and f!Shep was more expressive simply because it was the way they acted, but it was not done on purpose. Here it seems they acknowledged that you simply can't have identical performance and gave VOs some room for interpretation and maybe adjusted some lines (still shoving as the same option on dialogue wheel) between them to nudge them in direction they wanted.
Or maybe I'm completely wrong /shrug
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Post by davkar on Feb 14, 2017 14:15:15 GMT
I'd like to see something similar to the DAI approach. Unique 'race' dialogue options - Scott military stuff, Sara protehan and sciency stuff. Through perks you can unlock the same/similar line. And even though they are set origins you can still 'customize' them. For instance a Cadash inqi was just a smuggler, heavy hitter, assassin, liked/didn't like that lifestyle, believed in the Stone or not, etc. I think this could work with the Ryders too. Maybe you can choose for the npc Ryder too from a few default states. We hate each other, we always have each others back, s/he's just there, something like this and then our relationship changes accordingly throughout the game.
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mango1smoothie
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Origin: Mango-Smoothie
PSN: Mango_x_Smoothie
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Post by mango1smoothie on Feb 14, 2017 14:35:02 GMT
As far as differences between siblings go, it seems that it won't be much more than it was in trilogy where m!Shep was expresionless boring stoic and f!Shep was more expressive simply because it was the way they acted, but it was not done on purpose. Here it seems they acknowledged that you simply can't have identical performance and gave VOs some room for interpretation and maybe adjusted some lines (still shoving as the same option on dialogue wheel) between them to nudge them in direction they wanted. Or maybe I'm completely wrong /shrug Mark Meer did a way better job of voicing a character that felt believable no matter if you chose renegade or paragon. Making him perfect for renegon or paragade playthroughs. While Jennifer Hale had superior emotional voice acting. Which was great for paragon or renegade playthroughs, but her paragon and renegade responses sounded like two different people making it hard to mix the morality. Both are tremendous voice actors though.
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Elsariel
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Elsariel on Feb 14, 2017 18:12:40 GMT
In a perfect world, I would be able to choose various character traits for my Ryder in the CC screen but, alas, this is not a perfect world and I'll just muddle through with what they give me. C'est la vie.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 14, 2017 19:44:01 GMT
Interesting idea. Suggested compromise: make skill/personality variations in pairs and allow the player to choose of the pairs at character creation. Other sibling gets the road not taken. Result: You don't miss out on anything due to gender and you still get sibling chipping in on various tasks (I rather like that idea, particularly since the sibling is theoretically never out of contact since presumably you both have SAM implants).
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