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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 21, 2017 19:23:47 GMT
The devs have specifically stated that this is not a game about colonialism, but about cooperation and hope. So nope, I'm not too concerned about the game having a dark tone. Even if they'd not outright clarified this point, I'd have expected as much. BioWare's games tend toward optimism and cooperation. I'd say these are two types of thinking, if anything, that they promote. BioWare has a past of sometimes enforcing unintentionally bad connotation with positive themes (like Synthesis), and given how big the premise of MEA is and how much care you'd need to treat it with to make it well done I wouldn't be surprised if they end up making this power-fantasy without some narrative missteps. I mean, there was a lot of simplified thinking going on with ME3's story at times that unintentionally made Shepard seem like a moron and stuff. I wouldn't put it past them but considering the game's apparently been in production for a good number of years I hope they've sorted it out. They won't be "pushing that agenda" but they may unintentionally do so, if either their writers aren't careful or if the game-designers want certain gameplay goals that end up creating negative story-related things.
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Post by kino on Feb 21, 2017 19:24:41 GMT
Well, some of the locals seem to be as technically savvy and evolved as the A.I. so I'm not sure if invasion and conquest are the correct nouns to use.
Besides, could be the Andromeda races turn out to the empire building races this time.
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Post by degs29 on Feb 21, 2017 19:50:55 GMT
As a radical Marxist, I find it unsettling to find a game celebrating themes of dominance, invasion, and conquest. All because the Galactic council supports and promotes the idea of colonization and capitalism, now the entire universe will be enslaved. Do you believe that Mass Effect promotes capitalism? Considering it's a game made in the West, it's not really surprising that it would promote capitalism, is it? Regardless, there's no evidence of the game celebrating themes of dominance, invasion, and conquest. Hell, the Initiative didn't know other species existed in the Helios Cluster. We also don't know to what extent we are misplacing existing species. Consider the rules surrounding disturbing developing species in the Milky Way. I'd imagine the same rules are supposed to apply in Andromeda. All that said, there are a slew of games based during the World Wars, and others beside that explore horrific themes. While colonialism has its darkness, its not exclusively so.
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Post by amoebae on Feb 21, 2017 20:02:45 GMT
To the poster who said imperialist capitalism is an oxymoron - oh honey, no.
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Post by blanks on Feb 21, 2017 20:28:22 GMT
I'm going to respond to the OP in good faith. It seems like BioWare considered the stickier implications of the age of exploration when they wrote this story. From what I've seen of the footage it looks like rather than being a force that comes in and overwhelms a peaceful, native population we (Andromeda Initiative) are arriving to a cluster that's currently being invaded/subjugated by The Kett. So it sounds more like we'll be acting as partners in liberation/uplift to the Angaran. You also have to consider that the Andromeda Initiative is arriving in very small numbers (something like 80k) and not exactly an open stream of new settlers from the MW.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Feb 21, 2017 20:34:48 GMT
You know, there's enough trolling on the BSN that I expected this to be the same, but, after reading your OP, I think you're actually being earnest. Honestly, I don't think we'll know for sure whether the story is like that or not until we play and/or get spoiled for the plot. I'm gonna guess it's not going to be that, though.
As for people who say that it's not colonialism if the culture being colonized is a powerful empire subjugating others.... Do you know anything about the Aztecs?
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Post by amoebae on Feb 21, 2017 20:39:16 GMT
When the premise for MEA was first announced, my immediate thought was "I hope they do it well, because colonialism."
More recently, they've been talking about "exploring the frontier" which doesn't exactly conjure up a good look.
I reserve judgment, but it may at least make for some very interesting articles. I'll be looking forward to what FILM CRITIC HULK and Kill Screen write about it, and I'm sure it will provide me with many, many hours of discussion with my like-minded friends.
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Post by Beerfish on Feb 21, 2017 20:42:45 GMT
I sucked a krogan into paying for a fish I said was from the presidium, so yeah I am a worthy capitalistic pig!
I also endorsed 27 different shoppes as being my fav shoppe on the citadel.
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Post by amoebae on Feb 21, 2017 20:52:55 GMT
I'm particularly interested in how we might be able to read it as a refugee narrative, particularly in light of recent events. Perhaps we won't be portrayed as frontier explorers, but as people fleeing imminent death looking for aid.
On the comment above about uplift: that's not without its problems. Uplifting a people is itself a colonial concept. We see it often, with the idea of the liberal white man coming in and civilising the natives. There's a lot of scholarly work on the concept of uplift of African Americans, which can be seen at best as patronising paternalism, and at worst as a colonial attempt to erase a culture and 'make them more like us.' It's a difficult subject, because uplift has had supporters within groups who are being uplifted, but that doesn't render it free from criticism, and it has to be viewed in political, cultural and social context.
I haven't read a lot about the Angaran plot in MEA (trying to keep myself fresh), but am I right in believing they are perhaps embroiled in some sort of holy civil war? To which we come along, exploring that 'new' frontier, and intervene to end it?
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
(I put 'new' frontier in scare quotes because of course, it isn't new at all - people live there already.)
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Post by unkindled on Feb 21, 2017 21:53:46 GMT
It's a video game, who cares.
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Post by SKAR on Feb 21, 2017 22:59:51 GMT
So....a bunch of guys from a predominant galactic power travel to uncharted locations to build colonies, mine resources, and kill the native population. Gee, why does that sound familiar? It sounds very much like empire-building when the Europeans decided to conquer the world by invading other nations, ultimately impoverishing them, and building settlements all over. It was a race for these countries on who can build the most and who can build the fastest. Conquest wasn't always military-based; trade-embargoes, political sabotage, and cultural/religious dominance was also the name of the game. As a radical Marxist, I find it unsettling to find a game celebrating themes of dominance, invasion, and conquest. All because the Galactic council supports and promotes the idea of colonization and capitalism, now the entire universe will be enslaved. Do you believe that Mass Effect promotes capitalism? LOL dumb@$$ troll thread.
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Post by PermTrouble on Feb 21, 2017 23:09:42 GMT
I do kind of want to forcibly take over andromeda and turn the natives into chattel tbh
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 23:21:54 GMT
What is this thread?
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Post by vallixas on Feb 21, 2017 23:22:30 GMT
Chill out, they're just barbaric aliens.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Feb 21, 2017 23:23:00 GMT
"radical Marxist" Sounds like someone slept during History class.
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Post by SKAR on Feb 21, 2017 23:31:59 GMT
This, my friend, is a troll thread.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 1:43:01 GMT
For all we know the Andromeda Initiative could turn out to be the villains, and the alternate title for this game could be Dances With Khet. Wait and see. There's not enough known about the story yet to criticize it.
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Post by SwobyJ on Feb 22, 2017 8:35:30 GMT
We only have to be the good guy for the main plot of this one game, for the sake of not hurting casual buyers' feelings.
DLC? Next game? Ryder and/or the Initiative can be the outright enemy. Or at least problematic ally. Etc.
I think the roleplay options in MEA may range from 'this is how anything colonial should have been done, and most potential dangers of this approach won't be seen right now' to 'this is you on a path of more clear negative colonialism, but most of the worst consequences won't be felt right now'.
There's a premise that screams 'colonialism!' as a focus of things, but there's buffers EVERYWHERE. Tech levels, the political situation, the limitations of the Initiative, the massive room to settle down on, the very peaceful approach that your Pathfinder may show, etc etc. All things that may say 'this isn't the bad colonialism you may have heard of!'. Though on the other hand, all factors that don't necessarily negate the possibilities of things going sour later on.
I consider this similar to DA's Inquisition, which may or may not become just like (or at least much more like) the negative reputation it acquired in IRL history. Just not for now, in this hero narrative, and at least probably with the hopeful element that things of this 'cycle' of events do NOT necessarily need to be the SAME level of badness (as one may see it) as the PREVIOUS cycles.
Bioware does often admit what many consider 'human nature' - but it also seems to go with narratives that at least consider those that focus too much on this supposed nature to be too short-sighted (and typically villains), and encourages narratives that attempt to always 'evolve' beyond that many may typically consider today's human nature (though characters with obsession over it are also typically villains). All heroic stories do this to some degree, but Bioware stories have so many characters and factions etc that kinda act as extension of the protagonist, that its pretty strong in their games. Its rarely just the protagonist, but the party, etc.
I think MEA itself will mostly involve stranded people that want to recover what they lost and find a safe home. We may get increasing implications of what that'll later result in though. Like, this may be a multi-racial project and the joiners probably more overall tolerant of other races than the Milky Way generally was, but it also is a project that had not undergone the unifying Reaper War and it is a project that has a Human group that will not necessarily love to play nice for even the sake of survival. I think this'll matter and it'll color how the Initiative conducts itself, in good (no war baggage) and bad (no harsher test to forge bonds) ways. I can even see this in the Krogan clan Bioware picked - one that is diplomatic to even CARE to have anything of an ambassador in this age, but still brutal enough to focus on touting its extreme combat feats. I can imagine similar approaches for all the species, and an edge to things that will consider the Initiative NOT being so cooperative with other species either as the story goes on (with options; we cannot be 'Muahhaa' though), or after the main story of this one game.
For now, we build, we make relationships, we combat rather clearly dangerous enemies to everyone else, we develop technology, we uncover treasures in ruins. All rather innocent until many more competing interests, internal and external, speak up....
EDIT: By the way, I know how this can be a troll post. Still felt like taking the opportunity to write about the subject.
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Post by ryerye17 on Feb 22, 2017 10:54:08 GMT
Hi!
While yes the thread was created for a few laughs, I do believe that there is something legitimate to be discussed. I am sure that Bioware genuinely has good intentions but it is still interesting to look at how colonial thinking permeates into pop culture.
Art -- which I do consider video games as -- is reflective of our society, of how we think, of how we behave, and of how we interpret things. That is why as alien as sci-fi tends to be, what makes good sci-fi is what is inherently and undeniably human. In fact, I would argue that Mass Effect, with its choice-based gameplay and its morality system, is an exploration of humanity.
Parallels to real-life, historical, and very human conditions exist in the game. The question of is this more a colonization versus is this more akin to being refugees is a valid question and one that I hope gets answered in the game. "Coming in peace", "Creating further outposts", "Benevolent assimilation" are all things that have baggage in the real world and are definitely worth pondering once or twice.
Capitalism *is* expansive in nature, as compared to other socio-economic systems. The reason capitalism fails and falls down on itself is because it is in its nature to (in a simplistic sense) get better, get bigger, and get others. This is not a defense of socialism or communism however I think that framing it and being aware of it is important.
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Post by Serza on Feb 22, 2017 11:07:36 GMT
My Russian camouflage senses are tingling.
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Post by cloud9 on Mar 12, 2017 12:28:27 GMT
So....a bunch of guys from a predominant galactic power travel to uncharted locations to build colonies, mine resources, and kill the native population. Gee, why does that sound familiar? It sounds very much like empire-building when the Europeans decided to conquer the world by invading other nations, ultimately impoverishing them, and building settlements all over. It was a race for these countries on who can build the most and who can build the fastest. Conquest wasn't always military-based; trade-embargoes, political sabotage, and cultural/religious dominance was also the name of the game. As a radical Marxist, I find it unsettling to find a game celebrating themes of dominance, invasion, and conquest. All because the Galactic council supports and promotes the idea of colonization and capitalism, now the entire universe will be enslaved. Do you believe that Mass Effect promotes capitalism?You mean does this game promotes Manifest Destiny/"Human" Superiority over indigenous people.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Mar 12, 2017 15:38:34 GMT
Oh crap. More politics
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Post by Kelwing on Mar 12, 2017 15:44:41 GMT
Dear lord, who cares. How about just play the game and enjoy it when released. ....walks away mumbling about some peoples kids
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 12, 2017 16:04:56 GMT
In response to the OP, I don't think the goal was to kill the native population at all. The Tempest and Nomad don't even have weapons on them! So I find the "invasion" aspect lacking. Although, if you stumbled upon an alien species far less advanced, you wouldn't need a tank to enslave them or take over their planets.
We haven't seen a lot of the interaction between the AI and the native species, but it has never looked like we took over any pre-existing cities. Every AI outpost has been prefab structures and out in the middle of nowhere. If we were invading the Angara, we would probably just live in their cities instead of having to set up a radiation-free safe zone on a radioactive planet.
The fact that Sloane Kelly leads a group mercenaries proves that there is still capitalistic transactions in Andromeda, because mercenaries don't do things for free, but it's unclear if the native species were capitalistic or communistic/socialistic upon arrival.
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Post by jalis on Mar 12, 2017 18:18:05 GMT
So....a bunch of guys from a predominant galactic power travel to uncharted locations to build colonies, mine resources, and kill the native population. Gee, why does that sound familiar? It sound me familiar ... with humans. It have nothing to do with supposed politcal orientation. Roman empire acted like that, assyrian also, USSR acted like that during WWII (balt countries for exemple) and after, subduing eastern europe. Western europe is know for colonial past, USA attacked spain Under false pretexte in 1898 and seize part of its colonial empire, ect ... You will find many exemple of expansionism, often behind a mask, like religious motivation, promote civilisation, promote political system, ethnic cleaning and even restore peace by war.
I think this part is an unfounded accusation or a troll.
I think game is more in the way to propose adventure linked to explorations and discover. In case you will encounter aliens (and it seems you will), I can presume relations will be determined by your actions. Of course if some aliens are friendly and other hostiles it will push you in a way rather than an other.
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