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Reborn
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Post by Cyberzombie on Feb 28, 2017 3:15:07 GMT
Would it be possible to have a model that essentially doesn't have a host, whereby each client simply updates the others about what they are doing, and make everything appear to be functioning smoothly even though underneath it's actually a bit of a mess? Yeah, that's exactly what For Honor is doing. Everyone sends to/receives from everyone else and constantly updates their local simulation of the game to be in sync with everyone else. It's much more complex than a simple client/server model, because you need to slap a synchronization layer on top of the p2p stuff. I can imagine some complexities there but it sounds like a great way to design this type of co-op gaming.
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Post by akots on Feb 28, 2017 3:23:51 GMT
Yeah, that's exactly what For Honor is doing. Everyone sends to/receives from everyone else and constantly updates their local simulation of the game to be in sync with everyone else. It's much more complex than a simple client/server model, because you need to slap a synchronization layer on top of the p2p stuff. For Honor does not work well. Mostly, OOS and very bad cases with dropping connections. It is competitive PvP and apparently, sync issues are a priority especially against cheaters. Lots of people complain about atrocious lag and constant disconnects in US to Europe to Asia games. It's a big world after all and P2P obviously has issues in any global community. But more localized games work rather well. MEA is not too competitive, they might put some sync tolerance failsafes in their netcode which they did not put in DAIMP. For example, in ME3 MP most of the guns worked even when powers missed and with severe cases of lag as majority of gun hits are processed mostly client-side probably through challenge server cache. That makes laggy games actually playable for everyone except some really severe cases with ping over 300 msec. Sometimes, it is possible to do some damage and actually carry games on 500 msec hosts although it can get messy.
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Post by akots on Feb 28, 2017 3:28:58 GMT
... I'll start : 1. You spawn in Narnia That means you already joined a game so you are in lucky 10% who can actually at least try to play! No, it's got to be the loading screen and nothing beyond that, well, maybe BSOD finally but that would also be lucky. DAI was famous for silent crashes without any errors, just shutting down quietly. Windows even did not notice. Very clever, very sneaky. But not helpful. I presume, they did it on purpose to actually avoid flux of meaningful complaints for the service people. I also presume they knew in the beginning that the game won't work well and inserted this crash mechanics specifically to cover up their sorry ass.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 5:21:45 GMT
White people love Wayne Brady because he makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcolm X.
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Post by zorinho20 on Feb 28, 2017 5:40:13 GMT
White people love Wayne Brady because he makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcolm X. Should I google it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 7:13:19 GMT
White people love Wayne Brady because he makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcolm X. Should I google it? Chappelle show skit.
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Post by Spectr61 on Feb 28, 2017 8:08:18 GMT
Ladies and gentlemen, I humbly present the MEAMP official theme song..
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leafspring
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Post by leafspring on Feb 28, 2017 8:18:37 GMT
Well, if it runs poorly, they obviously did something wrong. Frostbite has pretty solid net code by now and I assume they learned a bit or two during DA:I's development. As for your bonus point: They did send some people over from the ME3MP team but those, too, had no experience with Frostbite. Using a new, giant framework involves an immense learning curve and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Sure, they might re-use DA:I code but they might also have some solid numbers indicating that the bad MP experience in DA:I hurt MT sales. As I said - benefit of the doubt. Unless BioWer is getting help from DICE and using a completely different networking model from DAIMP, (which could happen but let's be honest, unlikely). In DAIMP, everyone sends all their actions to the host. The host validates all those actions, then sends back information about what should've happened according to the host. The major problem with this approach is host validation. E.G. say I'm not hosting. I'm moving in x direction at a steady speed. An enemy lunges at me and I suddenly decide to evade the attack by using my jump-jet side-dodge. On my screen, I've dodged the attack. However, if it takes 200ms for the dodging input to reach the host, it's already too late. The host simply sees me, still walking at a steady pace, and the enemy has successfully landed its lunge attack. On his end, I got hit. He then tells my client "hey you've been hit, and you should be at position x" then I rubberband back and lose hp. The implementation of this model is completely fine. The problem is that it doesn't work well in high ping environments. So yeah, if they decide to skip host validation, then it might work fine. But the host will see other players warping all over the place instead and there will be huge desynchronization issues. I am moderately aware of how the different multiplayer networking models work but thanks for going into detail. The question is, how is a P2P model with a super-peer different from the client/server model? The way I understand it, the difference is that actions require twice the travel time to the server to be carried out instead of once as in a C/S model since the "main" game is running on each client individually instead of the server. While this means you always have a higher latency, it seems like a lot of issues can be circumvented by a proper matchmaking putting great emphasis on a low-latency enviroment. I don't think they're going to remove proper validation and basically going full "Ubisoft", allowing players to cheat whatever way they want in a multiplayer environment (have they fixed the Division by now?). While MEA isn't competitive/PvP, there's still a lot of money involved, which is arguably even more important than a fair game to companies. Regarding the netcode, though, there seems to be room for improvement over ME3. I haven't played DA:IMP so I have no idea if they already fixed some of the issues but in ME3 it felt to me like the client prediction was sub-par, making the experience in a high-latency environment worse than it could be. As for the fully connected approach someone mentioned: I don't see how this is supposed to work with a PvE game. Someone still has to host the NPCs, their projectiles etc. making them a super-peer and leading to the same issues we have now. Also, it would either use a lot more bandwidth or require synchronization which is even worse. edit: I guess you'd also have each client simulate the NPCs on their own but that seems like the worst combination of all the possible issues...
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OneWomanArmy
N5
Queen of BSN
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Post by OneWomanArmy on Feb 28, 2017 8:49:10 GMT
Rage quit is my middle name, oh and also rage gel 😝
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Post by zorinho20 on Feb 28, 2017 10:34:02 GMT
I hope you guys are ready for the lag and rubber-banding. Because when you use P2P matchmaking rather than a server, and you add to it the traditional BW netcode... Well, fun happens... I will try the MP, but I fully expect to rage quit do to lag and other connection related problems. I am not going just to try MP,I am going to marry it and fully accept bad with the good. Off topic. It took me some time to recall where did I see that ugly face ( Shame on me 'cos it was in one fun game)
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 28, 2017 11:36:10 GMT
Would it be possible to have a model that essentially doesn't have a host, whereby each client simply updates the others about what they are doing, and make everything appear to be functioning smoothly even though underneath it's actually a bit of a mess? Yeah, that's exactly what For Honor is doing. Everyone sends to/receives from everyone else and constantly updates their local simulation of the game to be in sync with everyone else. It's much more complex than a simple client/server model, because you need to slap a synchronization layer on top of the p2p stuff. I hear it doesn't work out well in For Honour. I can kinda live with some P2P issues in PvE, but in PvP games it just isn't worth the trouble.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 28, 2017 14:07:58 GMT
I only played DAI SP and never the MP cause everyone kept telling me it sucked but now I'm kinda curious lol. The SP sucked too! This
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Post by Cirvante on Feb 28, 2017 16:52:13 GMT
I only played DAI SP and never the MP cause everyone kept telling me it sucked but now I'm kinda curious lol. The SP sucked too! The bugs, glitches and connection issues sucked. The promotion system and gear grind killed it in the long run, but aside from that it could be quite fun. My personal favourites were playing Legionnaire against the Sha-Brytol, playing 4 Archers on Fereldan Castle and using Zither and Saarebas to give two Reavers obscene attack speed.
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ATR16
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Post by ATR16 on Feb 28, 2017 16:56:36 GMT
I hope you guys are ready for the lag and rubber-banding. Because when you use P2P matchmaking rather than a server, and you add to it the traditional BW netcode... Well, fun happens... I will try the MP, but I fully expect to rage quit do to lag and other connection related problems. ME3MP wasn't perfect, but it was good to great for about 2 years after launch. The issue with dedicated servers is 1) putting up enough so that someone in Montreal doesn't have to connect through New York. 2) Once they start shutting servers down you're fucked. Me and some friends used to play Diablo. I live in Edmonton, they live in Calgary. We had to connect to these servers a million miles away in the states, usually California, and the lag was atrocious. But we could play P2P games together just fine whether it was NHL, COD or ME3. Even friends of mine in Montreal/Toronto/Seattle/Washington/New York never had too many issues playing P2P with each other. It wouldn't always be perfect, but it was always good. Once you put an ocean between you and someone, its a different story but that doesn't change with dedicated servers. A lot of games are P2P and work great. A lot of shooters and basically all sports games are P2P. Most fighting games were P2P for years and generally worked fine online. I'm blindly assuming the ME3MP team can make it work better than the DAIMP team with more time with the engine to previous experience. I couldn't play at all DAIMP due to the connection issues. Regardless of your feelings on EA, they likely won't stand for that again. MP is too large a revenue source via microtransactions to let it be lost to poor netcode and other problems that plagued DAI.
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Little Pumpkin
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XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Feb 28, 2017 17:14:00 GMT
me3mp has performed quite well for me since i have returned to it. The odd game where i have picked the wrong class for a touch of lag but only one or two matches with real noticeable lag.
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OneWomanArmy
N5
Queen of BSN
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I’m a brilliant brunette with lots of blonde moments 😜
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Post by OneWomanArmy on Feb 28, 2017 18:30:57 GMT
I only played DAI SP and never the MP cause everyone kept telling me it sucked but now I'm kinda curious lol. The SP sucked too! The bugs, glitches and connection issues sucked. The promotion system and gear grind killed it in the long run, but aside from that it could be quite fun. My personal favourites were playing Legionnaire against the Sha-Brytol, playing 4 Archers on Fereldan Castle and using Zither and Saarebas to give two Reavers obscene attack speed. Hmmm I might give it a try sometime, just to see what it's about. The sp version is bad because of the story but I do enjoy playing the dragon age series otherwise, playing as the different classes, especially mage is my favourite.
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Post by Cirvante on Feb 28, 2017 18:37:54 GMT
Hmmm I might give it a try sometime, just to see what it's about. The sp version is bad because of the story but I do enjoy playing the dragon age series otherwise, playing as the different classes, especially mage is my favourite. Good luck finding a group then, it's pretty much dead compared to ME3MP.
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OneWomanArmy
N5
Queen of BSN
I’m a brilliant brunette with lots of blonde moments 😜
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Theonewomanarmy
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I’m a brilliant brunette with lots of blonde moments 😜
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onewomanarmy
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by OneWomanArmy on Feb 28, 2017 18:41:19 GMT
Hmmm I might give it a try sometime, just to see what it's about. The sp version is bad because of the story but I do enjoy playing the dragon age series otherwise, playing as the different classes, especially mage is my favourite. Good luck finding a group then, it's pretty much dead compared to ME3MP. Wow really? I guess I won't be trying it anyways then lol.
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Post by spacev3gan on Feb 28, 2017 20:17:39 GMT
Good luck finding a group then, it's pretty much dead compared to ME3MP. Wow really? I guess I won't be trying it anyways then lol. It is pretty dead indeed. Unless you have some friends playing it regularly, I guess I would suggest you not even trying it. Pugs are very scarce and the few who play are completely clueless and will often fail. Besides that, progression in this game is slow, so damn slow. Virtually everyone who play the equivalent of Gold difficult today are the veterans. There is no one who started playing it like 2 or 3 months ago and able to handle it without being carried - unlike ME3, where people can step up to Gold on their first week if they know what they are doing. That is why I hope that in terms of progression MEAMP is nothing like DAMP.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 23:23:49 GMT
The bugs, glitches and connection issues sucked. The promotion system and gear grind killed it in the long run, but aside from that it could be quite fun. My personal favourites were playing Legionnaire against the Sha-Brytol, playing 4 Archers on Fereldan Castle and using Zither and Saarebas to give two Reavers obscene attack speed. Hmmm I might give it a try sometime, just to see what it's about. The sp version is bad because of the story but I do enjoy playing the dragon age series otherwise, playing as the different classes, especially mage is my favourite. I've read about it today, and it sounds like it has too much toxic potential. For example, you need to open additional doors to loot, instead of getting autorewards like in ME3MP. So, as a new player you will immediately never really get anything now, because every other person still playing will be ripping through it to just finish the zones. It is also kind of a linear randomly generated dungeon crawl rather than the waves, with only three revives... all and all, it sounds nothing like the fast and fun ME3MP, rather like a dungeon in every other game, so this late in the game trying to pug on level 1 first time... does not sound like anything but a recipe for running after other people in confusion and being left for dead, if not being called all sorts of names for daring to play the game.
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Post by SalMasRac on Mar 1, 2017 0:27:57 GMT
Speaking of Ubisoft, Armored Core: For Answer was P2P, and it had a horrible abusable ingame lag glitch.
You fly giant robots! And you carry weapons in each hand, and above each shoulder, and even sidearms you can pull out of your legs. Once a weapon has run out of ammo, you can jettison it which will reduce your weight and you can move faster. The glitch was that targetting was tied directly to your right hand weapon, and if you jettisoned that, you couldn't target lock.
Unless you were the host, of course.
So the host would immediately jettison his right hand weapon as soon as the match started, and have a melee weapon in his left hand. On your screen, your client said "Ah, he's got no right hand weapon, he can't target lock! So he's just wildly flailing his melee weapon about in random directions, what a noob!"
But on HIS screen, he would be up in your face cutting you up into bite-sized pieces, and you wouldn't even know. It remains to this day one of the most atrocious examples of P2P PvP shenanigans, particularly considering that this bug existed in previous installments of the series as well.
They just literally did not give a shit.
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OneWomanArmy
N5
Queen of BSN
I’m a brilliant brunette with lots of blonde moments 😜
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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I’m a brilliant brunette with lots of blonde moments 😜
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Post by OneWomanArmy on Mar 1, 2017 5:59:00 GMT
Hmmm I might give it a try sometime, just to see what it's about. The sp version is bad because of the story but I do enjoy playing the dragon age series otherwise, playing as the different classes, especially mage is my favourite. I've read about it today, and it sounds like it has too much toxic potential. For example, you need to open additional doors to loot, instead of getting autorewards like in ME3MP. So, as a new player you will immediately never really get anything now, because every other person still playing will be ripping through it to just finish the zones. It is also kind of a linear randomly generated dungeon crawl rather than the waves, with only three revives... all and all, it sounds nothing like the fast and fun ME3MP, rather like a dungeon in every other game, so this late in the game trying to pug on level 1 first time... does not sound like anything but a recipe for running after other people in confusion and being left for dead, if not being called all sorts of names for daring to play the game. Yeah that doesn't sound like much fun. Even with me3 mp it wasn't fun until the guys from the mp section helped me get into it. And me3 is still the superior game.
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N3
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Origin: Zorinho20
Posts: 609 Likes: 1,597
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Post by zorinho20 on Mar 1, 2017 6:16:15 GMT
I've read about it today, and it sounds like it has too much toxic potential. For example, you need to open additional doors to loot, instead of getting autorewards like in ME3MP. So, as a new player you will immediately never really get anything now, because every other person still playing will be ripping through it to just finish the zones. It is also kind of a linear randomly generated dungeon crawl rather than the waves, with only three revives... all and all, it sounds nothing like the fast and fun ME3MP, rather like a dungeon in every other game, so this late in the game trying to pug on level 1 first time... does not sound like anything but a recipe for running after other people in confusion and being left for dead, if not being called all sorts of names for daring to play the game. Yeah that doesn't sound like much fun. Even with me3 mp it wasn't fun until the guys from the mp section helped me get into it. And me3 is still the superior game. Well,I don't wanna patronize you,but you should try it for yourself and bring your own conclusion. I played it a ton (over 1.5K hours) and enjoyed it.Also have friends who play it everyday. So that's my two cents😀
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OneWomanArmy
N5
Queen of BSN
I’m a brilliant brunette with lots of blonde moments 😜
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I’m a brilliant brunette with lots of blonde moments 😜
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onewomanarmy
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Post by OneWomanArmy on Mar 1, 2017 6:19:16 GMT
Yeah that doesn't sound like much fun. Even with me3 mp it wasn't fun until the guys from the mp section helped me get into it. And me3 is still the superior game. Well,I don't wanna patronize you,but you should try it for yourself and bring your own conclusion. I played it a ton (over 1.5K hours) and enjoyed it.Also have friends who play it everyday. So that's my two cents😀 Thank you, that's not patronizing at all, it's actually good advice
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Post by Alfonsedode on Mar 1, 2017 9:34:32 GMT
I only played DAI SP and never the MP cause everyone kept telling me it sucked but now I'm kinda curious lol. The SP sucked too! lol, just spitted m coffee on my desk
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