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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 17:01:19 GMT
Well, I sort of buck the trend about Legion and EDI too... I think their stories were always destined to be "pinnochio" ones. I think the seeds of where that ended were sown right when both characters were first introduced to us. That there was an intention to "humanize" the geth in some way, I think, was even shown in ME1 with the "place of worship" they were shown to have constructed on Feros. That they, overall, would wind up subservient somehow to the Reapers, I think, was also foreshadowed by Saren's dialogue in ME1. In truth, their characters didn't go anywhere in ME3 that I didn't expect from their introduction in ME2. Even the "romance" with Joker, to me, was totally predictable. No doubt, L'Etoile left because he disagreed with some of it... but I think it's likely that he was at odds with the original vision for that story arc from start and just didn't have enough influence to change it to what he wanted. The fans may have liked his ideas better than the original ones... but I do believe it's the original ones we wound up with and not something fabricated only after L'Etoile left the company. I definitely agree that the foundations had been laid for that geth storyline. I didn't like how far they took it. I felt like the geth should've been just beginning to explore these type of concepts. You're definitely right, though; the foundations were already laid. EDI's ME3 story was a mess. It was funny enough when Joker was romancing the ship at the end of ME2. It just got stupid when she got a body. I don't think I even need to go any further. One either likes, or not. I'm not sure why Chris left. If it really was because he couldn't get on board with the prevailing vision, I guess I admire his clarity of vision, and question his ability to work on a team. We are pretty much in total agreement then.
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Post by Fiery Phoenix on Feb 28, 2017 17:46:48 GMT
I'm not sure why Chris left. If it really was because he couldn't get on board with the prevailing vision, I guess I admire his clarity of vision, and question his ability to work on a team. He left pretty much as soon as the EA deal was official. That probably had something to do with it. I don't think he ever publicly explained why, though.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 2, 2017 21:02:43 GMT
Yeah but I've learned not to talk too much about him because it makes people roll their eyes apparently.
Shame he left after ME2 but I take it he isn't a fan of new-school games that are about flashy, fast paced elements. If you check his Reddit user you can see he's mostly talking about simulators, RPGs or MMOs and stuff. Right now Jo Berry is BioWare's lore-checker for Mass Effect so one can hope she's as strict as L'Etoile, but L'Etoile wasn't just the walking encyclopedia, he was also a super creative dude who wrote some of the most standout characters, even if not all of them were likeable like Thane. If you were like me Thane was the character that caugt your eye the most with ME2's release because he was the new race, he was on the cover and his design was nice and upon playing the game his writing certainly was something unique too, but also somewhat controversial just like Ashley.
He also gave pointers on the design of DA:O and he probably made Bring Down The Sky not-so-bad by assiting Mac on it even though he said he only wrote one of the human characters in it. His persistence with rational, factual storytelling is something that was sorely missed with ME2 and 3 when he left. His idea of the Geth was soooo much more interesting than Casey and Patrick Weekes's stupid directives. Just thinking of Legion's loyalty mission vs ME3's Geth Consensus or Rannoch culmination, despite of the dramatic effect of Rannoch I was way more immersed in the little Loyalty mission. There was a certain thing about L'Etoile's writing that just clicked perfectly with me. For both Ashley, Thane and Legion all of their dialogue made me tune in and listen to every word unlike some other characters that just sorta make me drift off every once in a while as they ramble on about their daddy issues or nerdlore.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 2, 2017 22:07:16 GMT
Ah, Chris L'Etoille. My favorite ME writer of all time. He also used to come on the forums and discuss details of ME's pseudo-science with the fans (that was back in the day of the very old legacy BW forums, before even the first iteration of BSN). Great guy.
What the ME team desperately needed was a lore master, someone who has an overview over what was already in the lore and made sure that every new thing written would fit into that. Chris might have been a great choice to be that voice in the writing team. Unfortunately, I think there are indications that the team actively did not want this. Mac Walters especially makes remarks again and again that he doesn't want the stories about the characters restricted by the wider lore of the universe. For him, characters are the most important part, story and lore come second (he says this in many interviews). To my mind, this was one of the main issues with Mass Effect (the OT and from what we've seen from interviews about ME:A, it's not going to change). Because in my mind, great characters can only be built if they have a consistent world to act in and if they have an interesting story arc to interact with. Too me, the focus on characters over story is a false dichotomy, they are equal and integrated aspects of the entire work of fiction and making this separation and valuing one over the other has hurt the story of ME much more than it helped.
Yes, not every line Chris wrote was great but I felt that he understood that BW needed to build a consistent and detailed world around their story and their characters for them to be believable. It would do the ME team good to get someone who takes this background and this consistency seriously, not for it's own sake or to satisfy us lore nerds but because it actually makes the job of writing a compelling story within the universe with great characters easier for the authors in the long run.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 3, 2017 14:56:26 GMT
In case my avatar doesn't give it away, my favorite part of L'Etoile's work on Mass Effect has to be the Rachni (followed closely by Legion and the ME 2 Geth). Now it's true that the Rachni aren't the most original idea out there; they're basically ME's version of the Formics from Ender's Game; but the way he wrote them, and how he structured their dialogue synched perfectly with their non-human appearance and culminated in one of the most 'alien' elements I have personally seen in mainstream science fiction. The way that the Queen spoke "songs the color of oily shadow", "the discordant sour yellow note" etc. was based on Chris researching a person with Synestheisa Disorder and imagining what it was like for such a person to perceive the world; told through the lens of a science fiction alien. It was a perfect balance of being foreign to your average player, but not needlessly esoteric where a lame cop out like "beyond your comprehension" was needed to compensate for a lack of substance. That is one of the big things I feel that BioWare's writing team was missing after Chris left, they don't seem to want to explore these types of ideas with their characters. It's less about having this interesting concept as a foundation and then building a character or species around that element, and more about creating a stereotypical cliché and then trying to squeeze variety into what little space remains. Instead of trying to imagine how a collective consciousness of network intelligences would operate and perceive the world, they opted to go with the lowbrow Commander Data trope. Rather than try and explore the nuances of a culture with a heavy emphasis on duality and extreme politeness, they decided to just turn it into a running gag. Etc.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 4, 2017 16:43:21 GMT
Where did you read that Chris created the Rachni though? I'm not sure Noveria was his level. We can't be sure whether the Rachni was inceptioned via the codex first or the scenario of the mission.
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Post by Fiery Phoenix on Mar 4, 2017 17:34:49 GMT
Where did you read that Chris created the Rachni though? I'm not sure Noveria was his level. We can't be sure whether the Rachni was inceptioned via the codex first or the scenario of the mission. I posted a link to his LinkedIn in the OP for reference. It says he was responsible for Noveria. Now, whether he also came up with the rachni is unclear. But I don't think it's an unsafe assumption.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 5, 2017 0:57:39 GMT
Where did you read that Chris created the Rachni though? I'm not sure Noveria was his level. We can't be sure whether the Rachni was inceptioned via the codex first or the scenario of the mission. He didn't create them per say, but he did write all the dialogue for Noveria, which would include the Rachni Queen. Their design was more than likely pre-established, but it was L'Etoile that gave them that 'alien' spark.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 5, 2017 0:58:38 GMT
Where did you read that Chris created the Rachni though? I'm not sure Noveria was his level. We can't be sure whether the Rachni was inceptioned via the codex first or the scenario of the mission. I posted a link to his LinkedIn in the OP for reference. It says he was responsible for Noveria. Now, whether he also came up with the rachni is unclear. But I don't think it's an unsafe assumption. ^ What he said.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 5, 2017 1:49:05 GMT
Lol, no wonder they got the shaft in ME3 too then. Them, The Geth and EDI (IMO). There was no subtlety and the Rachni literally felt like Mac or the other writers were like "gah... what was the point of these creatures? Can someone write a mission so fans are happy? Anyone?"
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 5, 2017 4:10:36 GMT
Lol, no wonder they got the shaft in ME3 too then. Them, The Geth and EDI (IMO). There was no subtlety and the Rachni literally felt like Mac or the other writers were like "gah... what was the point of these creatures? Can someone write a mission so fans are happy? Anyone?" I felt the Rachni actually got the best treatment out of those three in ME 3, if only because BioWare gave us almost a complete rehash of the scene with the Queen on Noveria. They were still 'alien' only because their dialogue was practically copy&pasted from ME 1.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 5, 2017 4:28:36 GMT
Yeah, very ironic that the best handled choice was still a complete letdown, huh.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 5, 2017 4:37:53 GMT
Yeah, very ironic that the best handled choice was still a complete letdown, huh. Indeed. Though I am almost thankful (sometimes) that the Rachni were relegated to a bit cameo and then ushered off camera, never to be seen again. At least that way they had their character preserved. I shudder to think what would have become of them had they been a major part of the trilogy like the Geth were. More than likely the narrative would have had them realize how "invalid" their existence was, at how they weren't "truly alive" because they weren't like us, and then had them self-genocide rather than taint the universe with their non human-like presence. Especially since the current set of writers can't seem to fathom something unlike us that isn't a human wannabe or a villain in it for the evilolz.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 5, 2017 4:46:49 GMT
I'm just bummed they didn't at least make it exclusive content to those that saved the queen and then ommitted all Rachni-reaper enemies for those that kept it dead. Easier difficulty but less war assets, more unique content rather than spoiling the illusion of choice. Every major choice has this copy-paste factor. Killed the council? Well, you get one that almost looks identical (but I do appreciate how the Salarian councilor switched Gender) and what happened to the ruthlessness of human dominance that was so beautifull painted over all of the Citadel in ME2 anywhere you went? Was that really so hard to replicate again? It's just dialogue, but no, human-first was the tagline for ME3 because that's what Mac thinks.
Did you guys see the new Exploration video for Andromeda too? Mac did it again. He said something along the lines of "Humans are special" in it. It's so backwards to what Mass Effect is. It's not that we're special because we're diverse or some stupid crap, it's that we work together because that makes us diverse.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 5, 2017 15:04:07 GMT
At least the Queen/breeder talking through the Krogan in ME3 sounded cool. I'll give'em that.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 5, 2017 23:08:36 GMT
I'm just bummed they didn't at least make it exclusive content to those that saved the queen and then ommitted all Rachni-reaper enemies for those that kept it dead. Easier difficulty but less war assets, more unique content rather than spoiling the illusion of choice. Every major choice has this copy-paste factor. Killed the council? Well, you get one that almost looks identical (but I do appreciate how the Salarian councilor switched Gender) and what happened to the ruthlessness of human dominance that was so beautifull painted over all of the Citadel in ME2 anywhere you went? Was that really so hard to replicate again? It's just dialogue, but no, human-first was the tagline for ME3 because that's what Mac thinks. Did you guys see the new Exploration video for Andromeda too? Mac did it again. He said something along the lines of "Humans are special" in it. It's so backwards to what Mass Effect is. It's not that we're special because we're diverse or some stupid crap, it's that we work together because that makes us diverse.I just re-watched the trailer, but I didn't hear any mention of anything like that, though I may have missed it. Where specifically was this mentioned? I do admit that BioWare is rather stuck on the trope of humans being special in general however.
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Post by sil on Mar 12, 2017 11:37:39 GMT
I'm just bummed they didn't at least make it exclusive content to those that saved the queen and then ommitted all Rachni-reaper enemies for those that kept it dead. Easier difficulty but less war assets, more unique content rather than spoiling the illusion of choice. Every major choice has this copy-paste factor. I wasn't sure whether to bring it up or not, but I think I should. I'm the maker of the mod Mass Horizons Respawn, which changes the amount of enemies spawning on a mission. I've recently been experimenting with having the number and type of enemies you fight being dictated by the choices you have made on previous games. It is possible to do, I've managed a test mission using the N7 Cerberus Labs where you fight more elite squads if you saved the Collector Base, but more troops if you destroyed it. I'm aiming on doing something like you suggested with the Rachni, it won't be possible to eliminate them entirely, but there will be a lot fewer once I work on their missions -if- you killed the Rachni in ME1. So even though Bioware haven't done it, modders can do it, so eventually you will get to see something along the lines of what you hoped to see. Sorry for the thread hijack, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Also, when it comes to Chris L'Etoile, does anyone know if he has a contact email? I'd love to get some advice on how he wrote planetary descriptions.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 12, 2017 16:39:49 GMT
I'm just bummed they didn't at least make it exclusive content to those that saved the queen and then ommitted all Rachni-reaper enemies for those that kept it dead. Easier difficulty but less war assets, more unique content rather than spoiling the illusion of choice. Every major choice has this copy-paste factor. I wasn't sure whether to bring it up or not, but I think I should. I'm the maker of the mod Mass Horizons Respawn, which changes the amount of enemies spawning on a mission. I've recently been experimenting with having the number and type of enemies you fight being dictated by the choices you have made on previous games. It is possible to do, I've managed a test mission using the N7 Cerberus Labs where you fight more elite squads if you saved the Collector Base, but more troops if you destroyed it. I'm aiming on doing something like you suggested with the Rachni, it won't be possible to eliminate them entirely, but there will be a lot fewer once I work on their missions -if- you killed the Rachni in ME1. So even though Bioware haven't done it, modders can do it, so eventually you will get to see something along the lines of what you hoped to see. Sorry for the thread hijack, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Also, when it comes to Chris L'Etoile, does anyone know if he has a contact email? I'd love to get some advice on how he wrote planetary descriptions. I know he has a Linkedin profile that links to his current job and other info. He also is an active reddit user by the name "Stormwaltz" but the few times I've prodded him he hasn't responded so I think he'd like to stay out of Mass Effect talking. He did mention Mass Effect in some posts not too long ago though.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 12, 2017 16:49:36 GMT
I found this post of him regarding the release of ME2 in January 2010 He also comments on the escapistmagazine sometimes. He's in on the joke, yo! He also made fun of Deception
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 3, 2017 19:11:13 GMT
I dug up more proof that contrary to naysayers shows how much even other BioWare writers and writers across the industry value this guy's skills. From Linkedin recommendations under Chris L'Etoile No wonder Casey admitted they resorted to the fanmade Wikis for brushing up on lore with this game. Had L'Etoile been around they could've simply asked him. Also, the bolded made me laugh out loud. The second bolded made me cry when I think of Andromeda.
And a Lead Writer at Bungie who apparently worked with L'Etoile some day. Again, I don't care if you disliked Ashley or whatever... this guy has been sorely missed during the re-development of the franchise with Andromeda and mark my words the new IP is also going to have a lack of this guy's expertise in IP/Setting establishment.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 5, 2017 3:41:50 GMT
Yeah but I've learned not to talk too much about him because it makes people roll their eyes apparently. And all the replies past this one explains why. There is appreciating someone because of their talent and then there is putting them on a massive golden throne and offering up your first born as a blood sacrifice to them so your wheat will grow tall. And stoning all others not like him.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 5, 2017 12:14:13 GMT
He essentially created the lore that drew people in which Andromeda clearly didn't manage to recreate for a new setting. He deserves that golden throne.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 5, 2017 13:56:42 GMT
He essentially created the lore that drew people in which Andromeda clearly didn't manage to recreate for a new setting. He deserves that golden throne. Your comparing apples to tigers in this one. While I have not yet played Andromeda yet everything I have been able to gather about it both good and bad reviews says it failed on a fundamental level compared to the ME games regardless of his interaction. One of the biggest issues for me personally that so far nothing has happened to reduce my concerns is the galaxy size hole they rip in the original trilogy lore. Simply so they can avoid as hard as possibly can even vaugly interacting with or facing the original trilogy's ending. There isn't shit he could have done to repair that problem anymore then the rest of them.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 5, 2017 14:08:07 GMT
Yes he could've because the act of going away from MET's lore isn't what hurts Andromeda. What hurts Andromeda the most is that its attempt to reshape the IP is executed by repeating the same lore from ME1 under a different guise and with barely any detail. Before commenting more on the comparison to MEA I suggest you actually play it or you won't know what you're talking about.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 5, 2017 14:58:26 GMT
Yes he could've because the act of going away from MET's lore isn't what hurts Andromeda. What hurts Andromeda the most is that its attempt to reshape the IP is executed by repeating the same lore from ME1 under a different guise and with barely any detail. Before commenting more on the comparison to MEA I suggest you actually play it or you won't know what you're talking about. That is why I clarified that it is based off gathered knowledge. That being said the reason I got the original trilogy was because I was looking for a new game series to play and read the reviews of Mass Effect in the same way I have done for ME:A. And while the ME trilogy made me interested to buy it the same can not be said for ME:A. All that being said how ever your claim that some how Chris L'Etoile would some how have fixed it has no facts to back it up. In the same vein as people claiming if religion didn't exist we would already be living on the moon. It is based on fantasy in your own head using hindsight to see the problems then declaring in your own internal world that L'Etoile wouldn't have done that based on nothing but unicorn farts. This is why people eye roll when you mention the name. You are on your knee so much for him that you need some knee pads.
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