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Post by Iakus on Apr 7, 2017 16:10:19 GMT
I agree. Really, the title of this thread says it all. If L'Etoile was god's gift to writing RPG's (worthy of the gold throne he has here), his name should be plastered all over the internet. The entry for him in IMDb just lists Mass Effect and Mass Effect; whereas Drew Karpyshyn's lists several other games and some novels and has 13 news articles attached to it and lists a couple of awards. For Chris, one might find a mention or two of him being associated with Dawngate, an EA MOBA project that never got past beta. Good writers who make their living from writing are famous for that writing. So, why doesn't anybody else except the die-hard little fan group here remember writer Chris L'Etoile? I think the question says it all... he may have had some talent, but that talent doesn't seem to have been widely recognized anywhere else either. Certainly, I don't think he's recognized generally to be a good enough writer to warrant a "gold throne" as a recruitment incentive. Does anything you just said invalidate that his writing made Mass Effect better, and his continued presence would have improved it, even if he may not have been able to save it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 16:46:11 GMT
I agree. Really, the title of this thread says it all. If L'Etoile was god's gift to writing RPG's (worthy of the gold throne he has here), his name should be plastered all over the internet. The entry for him in IMDb just lists Mass Effect and Mass Effect; whereas Drew Karpyshyn's lists several other games and some novels and has 13 news articles attached to it and lists a couple of awards. For Chris, one might find a mention or two of him being associated with Dawngate, an EA MOBA project that never got past beta. Good writers who make their living from writing are famous for that writing. So, why doesn't anybody else except the die-hard little fan group here remember writer Chris L'Etoile? I think the question says it all... he may have had some talent, but that talent doesn't seem to have been widely recognized anywhere else either. Certainly, I don't think he's recognized generally to be a good enough writer to warrant a "gold throne" as a recruitment incentive. Does anything you just said invalidate that his writing made Mass Effect better, and his continued presence would have improved it, even if he may not have been able to save it? I don't think that his writing in ME1 and ME2 stands up any better than the writing done by other members of the ME1 and ME2 team and, as such, I think it's a pretty lofty assumption that his continued presence in ME3 would have made a significant difference there. We'll never know because he left... He wasn't fired... he left. He even worked for EA subsequent to that point, but the project he was working on didn't even get off the ground. I do think he had problems working with the other members of the Bioware team... and I actually think his discontent would have affected ME3 negatively had he elected to stay on. The course that ME3 took was set in ME1. The ending was even clearly foreshadowed in ME1. The direction Legion's character took was set in ME2. The presentation of the geth who worshiped Sovereign like "heretics" was actually set up in ME1 with the little sequence about the glowing orb and Saren's reference to Sovereign being insulted by the petty devotions the geth hurl at it. There is NOTHING in his dialogue in ME3 that materially changes his personality from that presented in ME2. He still talks in exact terms, still continues to point out how what he's thinking differs from what the humans say he's thinking. Even his statement about being no better than humans is framed within a context of compiled data. I simply fail to see any sort of dramatic slide in the writing quality over the course of the Trilogy. It's all written at about the same Grade 9 level (and that probably intentionally caters to Bioware's target audience).
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 7, 2017 16:58:46 GMT
However, the only exposure we get to Rachni culture is very cursory... basically limited to one encounter in ME1. There was never any intention to make them a sexual partner of the protagonist. In MEA, the Angarans are set up as the "native" love interest... a role served by the Asari in ME1 - whose culture was always very recognizably an idealistic human one. At least the Angarans aren't set up as pole dancers, so there was some improvement IMO. Since they weren't going to go very in-depth about the Rachni beyond them being a "threat" to the galaxy, the use of some "colorful" language wasn't really that tough a task towards making them seem "alien." Even so, it has very human elements - e.g. the mothers sing lullabies to their children to calm them. Which goes back to what I mentioned earlier in this thread. Maybe if BioWare wasn't so concerned with #PrettyGoodBaning and appealing to every small, abstract niche of humanity we could actually get some 'alien' aliens out of their games. And it's true, the Rachni wasn't completely divorced from human comprehension, but they were certainly different enough to warrant the non-human descriptor; same with the Hanar and Elcor (ME 1). They were inhuman in looks but not inhuman in action and emotion. The closes we truly get to inhuman in action and emotion is the Reapers. The Catalyst's entire conversation is a true conversation with something that isn't completely human. And players threw shit fits over it. The complaints about the logic and actions of the Catalyst are many and varied.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 7, 2017 17:05:59 GMT
Does anything you just said invalidate that his writing made Mass Effect better, and his continued presence would have improved it, even if he may not have been able to save it? The course that ME3 took was set in ME1. The ending was even clearly foreshadowed in ME1. Are you serious? If anything can be clearly recognized from the various elements of those two games, it's that the ME team didn't have the slightest idea where things would end when they made the end of ME1. As for Legion and the geth, the difference is that in ME2, the geth were eventually recognized as a valid form of life in their own right, while in ME3, they needed an additional pseudo-numinous something that by nature only organics were supposed to have, and which was supplied - in an irony that I'm sure escaped most players - by the Reapers, as a stand-in for the transcendent, and the result was that the geth acquired human-like individuality. Again, a prime example of making humanity the measure of the universe, as opposed to ME2.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 17:33:38 GMT
The course that ME3 took was set in ME1. The ending was even clearly foreshadowed in ME1. Are you serious? If anything can be clearly recognized from the various elements of those two games, it's that the ME team didn't have the slightest idea where things would end when they made the end of ME1. As for Legion and the geth, the difference is that in ME2, the geth were eventually recognized as a valid form of life in their own right, while in ME3, they needed an additional pseudo-numinous something that by nature only organics were supposed to have, and which was supplied - in an irony that I'm sure escaped most players - by the Reapers, as a stand-in for the transcendent, and the result was that the geth acquired human-like individuality. Again, a prime example of making humanity the measure of the universe, as opposed to ME2. Yes, I'm serious. The AI on the Citadel mentions that organics must seek to control or destroy synthetics (so that two of the three possible ending choices put forth right there). Barla Von clearly indicates that it is a game you cannot win. We start to get hints about issues with genetic enhancements in the conversation between Rebekkah and Michael. How were the geth universally "recognized as a valid form of life" in ME2? The player could just send Legion off to Cerberus without a second thought and none of those conversations with Legion take place. The differing notions about what constitutes a "valid form of life" arise only in the conversation between Adams and Donnelly where the player can choose to support or not support the notion of whether EDI exists apart from the ship itself. There are very similar conversations that occur in ME3 between Adams and either Dr. and between Javik and EDI (if the player has that DLC). During the Rannoch arc, the player can decide to agree with the notion that the geth are alive based on their own assessment of them being a fully-evolved sentient AI (i.e. capable of complex independent thought) or discount even that notion by disagreeing with it. The conversation with EDI at the end doesn't even say that she is alive or not... she says she finally "feels alive" and that is something completely different. Lots of people say they don't "feel alive" and they are completely organic.
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Post by Vortex13 on Apr 7, 2017 17:35:53 GMT
Which goes back to what I mentioned earlier in this thread. Maybe if BioWare wasn't so concerned with #PrettyGoodBaning and appealing to every small, abstract niche of humanity we could actually get some 'alien' aliens out of their games. And it's true, the Rachni wasn't completely divorced from human comprehension, but they were certainly different enough to warrant the non-human descriptor; same with the Hanar and Elcor (ME 1). The Hanar were completely framed as the mirror to "religious fanatics" in our own society. They're personalities are completely human. I've heard almost the exact same argument with the preaching Hanar between law enforcement and buskers in my own city. Same with the elcor - just an exaggerated version of stoics, not really affected by anything going on around them. When I first walked into the Elcor embassy and overhead the conversation between the two elcor over the consort, I honestly felt like I had just walked into the complaints department at a local store. The only thing that makes those two species alien IS their appearance... and they could appear that way because they were not intended LI's. The Hanar culture was also highly dualistic, what with their entirely separate face and soul names and referring to themselves as the impersonal "it" or "this one" when dealing with strangers and passing acquaintances. Their culture is also built upon the notion of extreme politeness; even in the face of those they hated. The religious overtones were an obvious parallel to humanity, but aside from that one instance with the zealot in the Presidium the Hanar were actually quite distinct from normal human interactions. Same thing with the Elcor, all of their slow, deliberate speech and added descriptors before statements was because of their extremely subtle body language and inflection of tone. They literally spoke that way for species like us humans' benefit. You could almost say that humans were too stupid to pick up on the minute details of an Elcor's communication; "an interaction among themselves of scent, extremely slight body movements, and subvocalized infrasound to convey shades of meaning that make a human smile seem as subtle as a fireworks display"; so they had to slow down and practically spell everything out. The fact that two of them were talking about the consort doesn't detract from their 'alien' qualities, just that they are capable of communicating along lines that we could find familiar. Rachni are the same way. All three of these species weren't needlessly esoteric (like the Reapers) just for the sake of being otherworldly but they did have distinct qualities and traits that set them apart from the norm. All the other species: the Asari, the Krogan, the Turians, the Salarians, etc. you could replace all of them with a human and nothing about your interaction with them changes. You couldn't do that with these three outliers. The fact that they had non-human appearances was just an added bonus on top of rather under-appreciated writing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:15:25 GMT
The Hanar were completely framed as the mirror to "religious fanatics" in our own society. They're personalities are completely human. I've heard almost the exact same argument with the preaching Hanar between law enforcement and buskers in my own city. Same with the elcor - just an exaggerated version of stoics, not really affected by anything going on around them. When I first walked into the Elcor embassy and overhead the conversation between the two elcor over the consort, I honestly felt like I had just walked into the complaints department at a local store. The only thing that makes those two species alien IS their appearance... and they could appear that way because they were not intended LI's. The Hanar culture was also highly dualistic, what with their entirely separate face and soul names and referring to themselves as the impersonal "it" or "this one" when dealing with strangers and passing acquaintances. Their culture is also built upon the notion of extreme politeness; even in the face of those they hated. The religious overtones were an obvious parallel to humanity, but aside from that one instance with the zealot in the Presidium the Hanar were actually quite distinct from normal human interactions. Same thing with the Elcor, all of their slow, deliberate speech and added descriptors before statements was because of their extremely subtle body language and inflection of tone. They literally spoke that way for species like us humans' benefit. You could almost say that humans were too stupid to pick up on the minute details of an Elcor's communication; "an interaction among themselves of scent, extremely slight body movements, and subvocalized infrasound to convey shades of meaning that make a human smile seem as subtle as a fireworks display"; so they had to slow down and practically spell everything out. The fact that two of them were talking about the consort doesn't detract from their 'alien' qualities, just that they are capable of communicating along lines that we could find familiar. Rachni are the same way. All three of these species weren't needlessly esoteric (like the Reapers) just for the sake of being otherworldly but they did have distinct qualities and traits that set them apart from the norm. All the other species: the Asari, the Krogan, the Turians, the Salarians, etc. you could replace all of them with a human and nothing about your interaction with them changes. You couldn't do that with these three outliers. The fact that they had non-human appearances was just an added bonus on top of rather under-appreciated writing. In a religious sense, some people take on a saint's name when they are confirmed in their faith. Protocol and politeness is also a big deal in monasteries and other religious sects, as are avoiding displays of personal pride... that is, you're describing a rather cliche presentation of an extremely religious group.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 7, 2017 19:03:02 GMT
The Hanar culture was also highly dualistic, what with their entirely separate face and soul names and referring to themselves as the impersonal "it" or "this one" when dealing with strangers and passing acquaintances. Their culture is also built upon the notion of extreme politeness; even in the face of those they hated. The religious overtones were an obvious parallel to humanity, but aside from that one instance with the zealot in the Presidium the Hanar were actually quite distinct from normal human interactions. Same thing with the Elcor, all of their slow, deliberate speech and added descriptors before statements was because of their extremely subtle body language and inflection of tone. They literally spoke that way for species like us humans' benefit. You could almost say that humans were too stupid to pick up on the minute details of an Elcor's communication; "an interaction among themselves of scent, extremely slight body movements, and subvocalized infrasound to convey shades of meaning that make a human smile seem as subtle as a fireworks display"; so they had to slow down and practically spell everything out. The fact that two of them were talking about the consort doesn't detract from their 'alien' qualities, just that they are capable of communicating along lines that we could find familiar. Rachni are the same way. All three of these species weren't needlessly esoteric (like the Reapers) just for the sake of being otherworldly but they did have distinct qualities and traits that set them apart from the norm. All the other species: the Asari, the Krogan, the Turians, the Salarians, etc. you could replace all of them with a human and nothing about your interaction with them changes. You couldn't do that with these three outliers. The fact that they had non-human appearances was just an added bonus on top of rather under-appreciated writing. In a religious sense, some people take on a saint's name when they are confirmed in their faith. Protocol and politeness is also a big deal in monasteries and other religious sects, as are avoiding displays of personal pride... that is, you're describing a rather cliche presentation of an extremely religious group. Do you think it would be possible to create an alien that is truly alien without obvious parallels between them and humanity?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 20:06:50 GMT
In a religious sense, some people take on a saint's name when they are confirmed in their faith. Protocol and politeness is also a big deal in monasteries and other religious sects, as are avoiding displays of personal pride... that is, you're describing a rather cliche presentation of an extremely religious group. Do you think it would be possible to create an alien that is truly alien without obvious parallels between them and humanity? No, I don't. The writers are 100% human, the readers are 100% human. Everything that informs how we all think about alien-ness is human. Our imaginations are 100% human and we call upon our history to create imaginings of our future. How "alien" something will feel to the individual depends on what bits of humanity they are familiar with. To some, no doubt, the hanar parallels to human religious groups are less obvious because maybe they've never heard of a saint's name. Even the more exotic physical appearances of aliens are routed in what we humans see in other species here on earth. That Shepard can use the line "big stupid jellyfish" when referring to hanar just exemplifies the reality that they are not really all that alien to any of us. What made it easier for sci-fi writers of the past to create an aura of alien-ness was that there was generally more about the world that many people were not as familiar with than they are today. We were more isolated, so something simply coming from the history of another culture seemed more alien to us.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 7, 2017 22:24:25 GMT
Do you think it would be possible to create an alien that is truly alien without obvious parallels between them and humanity? No, I don't. The writers are 100% human, the readers are 100% human. Everything that informs how we all think about alien-ness is human. Our imaginations are 100% human and we call upon our history to create imaginings of our future. How "alien" something will feel to the individual depends on what bits of humanity they are familiar with. To some, no doubt, the hanar parallels to human religious groups are less obvious because maybe they've never heard of a saint's name. Even the more exotic physical appearances of aliens are routed in what we humans see in other species here on earth. That Shepard can use the line "big stupid jellyfish" when referring to hanar just exemplifies the reality that they are not really all that alien to any of us. What made it easier for sci-fi writers of the past to create an aura of alien-ness was that there was generally more about the world that many people were not as familiar with than they are today. We were more isolated, so something simply coming from the history of another culture seemed more alien to us. It is probably very difficult, if not impossible, to create a character you can interact with without any human aspects, but that's not necessary. In order to approximate an alien mindset, you can enhance certain human traits and downplay or remove others. I think Bioware successfully went a little in this direction two times: with Cole in DAI and - ironically - with David Archer in ME3. Of course, neither instance was SF (David Archer was IN an SF story, but he didn't represent an SF concept), but SF stories using "structurally unusual human minds" as an "alien" theme have been created. C S Friedman's "This Alien Shore" is one of the best works of SF I know. The above condition also leaves a loophole that has also been used in SF: The "The Red" trilogy by Linda Nagata features an AI that never loses its alienness because nobody has ever found out how to directly communicate with it. You can also showcase an alien mindset by giving your alien mind priorities and decisions that, while the writer may be able to imagine them, a human would never actually have or make. ME3's Catalyst had great potential in this regard, and I've always argued it is not insane, shackled to a faulty programmer's code or suchlike, as many people argue, but simply had completely non-human priorities and a completely pragmatic attitude. Had the games not pushed the horror up to eleven, suggesting "gross gratuitous evil" rather than the required clinical detachment, and had we been allowed to explore the Catalyst's priorities in some depth, with dialogue on both sides that made sense, it might even have worked. Finally, there are ways to express a character's alienness in spite of eventually establishing understandable communication: In E William Brown's "Perilous Waif" the protagonist, Alice Long, attempts to communicate with an AI, but she can only do it because she has a highly-enhanced computer implant thoroughly integrated with her brain, and after exchanging mathematical concepts for a while to establish a framework. So yes, I think SF can approximate alien mindsets, at least enough to deal with them, and that which makes them alien, or that which enables communication in spite of it, in some depth. In addition, we were not just talking about alien characters, but about ideas and technologies. In the "Corporation Wars" trilogy by Ken MacLeod, reconstructed human minds live within a simulation long after their originals died, and we see, for instance, a character reflecting on the fact that it's not economical to run all parts of a simulation all the time if there's no one to experience it. Also parts of his life in the simulation have never been actually experienced by anyone, even though he remembers having experienced them. Nonetheless, he experiences his life as meaningful. It is a setup alien enough that thinking about it too deeply could drive people to insanity.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 7, 2017 22:43:17 GMT
No, I don't. The writers are 100% human, the readers are 100% human. Everything that informs how we all think about alien-ness is human. Our imaginations are 100% human and we call upon our history to create imaginings of our future. How "alien" something will feel to the individual depends on what bits of humanity they are familiar with. To some, no doubt, the hanar parallels to human religious groups are less obvious because maybe they've never heard of a saint's name. Even the more exotic physical appearances of aliens are routed in what we humans see in other species here on earth. That Shepard can use the line "big stupid jellyfish" when referring to hanar just exemplifies the reality that they are not really all that alien to any of us. What made it easier for sci-fi writers of the past to create an aura of alien-ness was that there was generally more about the world that many people were not as familiar with than they are today. We were more isolated, so something simply coming from the history of another culture seemed more alien to us. It is probably very difficult, if not impossible, to create a character you can interact with without any human aspects, but that's not necessary. In order to approximate an alien mindset, you can enhance certain human traits and downplay or remove others. I think Bioware successfully went a little in this direction two times: with Cole in DAI and - ironically - with David Archer in ME3. Of course, neither instance was SF (David Archer was IN an SF story, but he didn't represent an SF concept), but SF stories using "structurally unusual human minds" as an "alien" theme have been created. C S Friedman's "This Alien Shore" is one of the best works of SF I know. The above condition also leaves a loophole that has also been used in SF: The "The Red" trilogy by Linda Nagata features an AI that never loses its alienness because nobody has ever found out how to directly communicate with it. You can also showcase an alien mindset by giving your alien mind priorities and decisions that, while the writer may be able to imagine them, a human would never actually have or make. ME3's Catalyst had great potential in this regard, and I've always argued it is not insane, shackled to a faulty programmer's code or suchlike, as many people argue, but simply had completely non-human priorities and a completely pragmatic attitude. Had the games not pushed the horror up to eleven and had we been allowed to explore the Catalyst's priorities in some depth and with dialogue on both sides that made sense, it might even have worked. Finally, there are ways to express a character's alienness in spite of eventually establishing understandable communication: In E William Brown's "Perilous Waif" the protagonist, Alice Long, attempts to communicate with an AI, but she can only do it because she has a highly-enhanced computer implant thoroughly integrated with her brain, and after exchanging mathematical concepts for a while to establish a framework. So yes, I think SF can approximate alien mindsets, at least enough to deal with them, and that which makes them alien, or that which enables communication in spite of it, in some depth. In addition, we were not just talking about alien characters, but about ideas and technologies. In the "Corporation War" trilogy by Ken MacLeod, reconstructed human minds live within a simulation long after their originals died, and we see, for instance, a character reflecting on the fact that it's not economical to run all parts of a simulation all the time if there's no one to experience it. Also parts of his life in the simulation have never been actually experienced by anyone, even though he remembers having experienced them. Nonetheless, he experiences his life as meaningful. It is a setup alien enough that thinking about it too deeply could drive people to insanity. And yet the basic argument that kick started this was L'Etoile was some how the only person able to make alien aliens. And all other writers were unable to. Using example of Geth/Legion and EDI as humanization as only way they could evolve. Even though religious observation shown in ME 1 is extremely humanistic. And EDI who has lived her entire literal life around organics using organic terms to express her opinions and such.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 7, 2017 23:01:42 GMT
It is probably very difficult, if not impossible, to create a character you can interact with without any human aspects, but that's not necessary. In order to approximate an alien mindset, you can enhance certain human traits and downplay or remove others. I think Bioware successfully went a little in this direction two times: with Cole in DAI and - ironically - with David Archer in ME3. Of course, neither instance was SF (David Archer was IN an SF story, but he didn't represent an SF concept), but SF stories using "structurally unusual human minds" as an "alien" theme have been created. C S Friedman's "This Alien Shore" is one of the best works of SF I know. The above condition also leaves a loophole that has also been used in SF: The "The Red" trilogy by Linda Nagata features an AI that never loses its alienness because nobody has ever found out how to directly communicate with it. You can also showcase an alien mindset by giving your alien mind priorities and decisions that, while the writer may be able to imagine them, a human would never actually have or make. ME3's Catalyst had great potential in this regard, and I've always argued it is not insane, shackled to a faulty programmer's code or suchlike, as many people argue, but simply had completely non-human priorities and a completely pragmatic attitude. Had the games not pushed the horror up to eleven and had we been allowed to explore the Catalyst's priorities in some depth and with dialogue on both sides that made sense, it might even have worked. Finally, there are ways to express a character's alienness in spite of eventually establishing understandable communication: In E William Brown's "Perilous Waif" the protagonist, Alice Long, attempts to communicate with an AI, but she can only do it because she has a highly-enhanced computer implant thoroughly integrated with her brain, and after exchanging mathematical concepts for a while to establish a framework. So yes, I think SF can approximate alien mindsets, at least enough to deal with them, and that which makes them alien, or that which enables communication in spite of it, in some depth. In addition, we were not just talking about alien characters, but about ideas and technologies. In the "Corporation War" trilogy by Ken MacLeod, reconstructed human minds live within a simulation long after their originals died, and we see, for instance, a character reflecting on the fact that it's not economical to run all parts of a simulation all the time if there's no one to experience it. Also parts of his life in the simulation have never been actually experienced by anyone, even though he remembers having experienced them. Nonetheless, he experiences his life as meaningful. It is a setup alien enough that thinking about it too deeply could drive people to insanity. And yet the basic argument that kick started this was L'Etoile was some how the only person able to make alien aliens. And all other writers were unable to. Using example of Geth/Legion and EDI as humanization as only way they could evolve. Even though religious observation shown in ME 1 is extremely humanistic. And EDI who has lived her entire literal life around organics using organic terms to express her opinions and such. What Chris L'Etoile actually suggests in one of his old posts is that the decision to have things go into a direction he didn't like - I think he said making Legion less alien was one of those things - was made by a person above his paygrade. Also I know that Patrick Weekes can be very good at writing unusual characters, though I also think he's better at the emotional stuff and not really very good at exploring SF themes*. So the question I'd ask is "why was that decision made" (since I consider it almost anathema to the genre)? If itwas made to make Legion more "relatable" (I came to hate that word), I'd say they failed in my case. For me Legion represented the geth distributed consciousness as described in ME2, and I found that way more interesting than the AIs with standard human-like individuality that ME3 thought we should value just because it's more human-like. Bullshit. This is also related to the other accusation I often level at ME: that their writers, all too often, didn't think things through in their worldbuilding. By Legion having been written this way in ME2, I can infer that some thought was put into it, and I value that. The parts of the MET I recall most fondly are when SF themes are actually explored, at least a little, rather than simply used as plot devices. Another little example: the exchange between Adams and Chakwas about synthetic life, with Adams asserting "we're all machines" while Chakwas asserting there was something more about organic life. *I recommend his (non-DA) fantasy books. The style is not my favorite - too much over-the-top-ness - but that's just preference. They're quite good.
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Post by Vortex13 on Apr 8, 2017 0:05:02 GMT
No, I don't. The writers are 100% human, the readers are 100% human. Everything that informs how we all think about alien-ness is human. Our imaginations are 100% human and we call upon our history to create imaginings of our future. How "alien" something will feel to the individual depends on what bits of humanity they are familiar with. To some, no doubt, the hanar parallels to human religious groups are less obvious because maybe they've never heard of a saint's name. Even the more exotic physical appearances of aliens are routed in what we humans see in other species here on earth. That Shepard can use the line "big stupid jellyfish" when referring to hanar just exemplifies the reality that they are not really all that alien to any of us. What made it easier for sci-fi writers of the past to create an aura of alien-ness was that there was generally more about the world that many people were not as familiar with than they are today. We were more isolated, so something simply coming from the history of another culture seemed more alien to us. It is probably very difficult, if not impossible, to create a character you can interact with without any human aspects, but that's not necessary. In order to approximate an alien mindset, you can enhance certain human traits and downplay or remove others. I think Bioware successfully went a little in this direction two times: with Cole in DAI and - ironically - with David Archer in ME3. Of course, neither instance was SF (David Archer was IN an SF story, but he didn't represent an SF concept), but SF stories using "structurally unusual human minds" as an "alien" theme have been created. C S Friedman's "This Alien Shore" is one of the best works of SF I know. The above condition also leaves a loophole that has also been used in SF: The "The Red" trilogy by Linda Nagata features an AI that never loses its alienness because nobody has ever found out how to directly communicate with it. You can also showcase an alien mindset by giving your alien mind priorities and decisions that, while the writer may be able to imagine them, a human would never actually have or make. ME3's Catalyst had great potential in this regard, and I've always argued it is not insane, shackled to a faulty programmer's code or suchlike, as many people argue, but simply had completely non-human priorities and a completely pragmatic attitude. Had the games not pushed the horror up to eleven, suggesting "gross gratuitous evil" rather than the required clinical detachment, and had we been allowed to explore the Catalyst's priorities in some depth, with dialogue on both sides that made sense, it might even have worked. Finally, there are ways to express a character's alienness in spite of eventually establishing understandable communication: In E William Brown's "Perilous Waif" the protagonist, Alice Long, attempts to communicate with an AI, but she can only do it because she has a highly-enhanced computer implant thoroughly integrated with her brain, and after exchanging mathematical concepts for a while to establish a framework. So yes, I think SF can approximate alien mindsets, at least enough to deal with them, and that which makes them alien, or that which enables communication in spite of it, in some depth. In addition, we were not just talking about alien characters, but about ideas and technologies. In the "Corporation Wars" trilogy by Ken MacLeod, reconstructed human minds live within a simulation long after their originals died, and we see, for instance, a character reflecting on the fact that it's not economical to run all parts of a simulation all the time if there's no one to experience it. Also parts of his life in the simulation have never been actually experienced by anyone, even though he remembers having experienced them. Nonetheless, he experiences his life as meaningful. It is a setup alien enough that thinking about it too deeply could drive people to insanity. Very well said. Human's can't ever create something truly alien, it's true, but to assume that Vulcans and Asari are the best we are going to get is just insulting to the genre (IMO). All those examples you listed perfectly demonstrate that if a writer with sufficient skill puts their mind to it, they can indeed create alien species that are extremely divorced from what humanity would easily find relatable and could easily fall into the 'alien' category. I would even add in aliens like the Scramblers from Peter Watts's novel Blindsight; a species with immense intelligence but no conscious thought, and one that treats human language it'self as a form of attack.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 8, 2017 0:24:37 GMT
And yet the basic argument that kick started this was L'Etoile was some how the only person able to make alien aliens. And all other writers were unable to. Using example of Geth/Legion and EDI as humanization as only way they could evolve. Even though religious observation shown in ME 1 is extremely humanistic. And EDI who has lived her entire literal life around organics using organic terms to express her opinions and such. What Chris L'Etoile actually suggests in one of his old posts is that the decision to have things go into a direction he didn't like - I think he said making Legion less alien was one of those things - was made by a person above his paygrade. Also I know that Patrick Weekes can be very good at writing unusual characters, though I also think he's better at the emotional stuff and not really very good at exploring SF themes*. So the question I'd ask is "why was that decision made" (since I consider it almost anathema to the genre)? If itwas made to make Legion more "relatable" (I came to hate that word), I'd say they failed in my case. For me Legion represented the geth distributed consciousness as described in ME2, and I found that way more interesting than the AIs with standard human-like individuality that ME3 thought we should value just because it's more human-like. Bullshit. This is also related to the other accusation I often level at ME: that their writers, all too often, didn't think things through in their worldbuilding. By Legion having been written this way in ME2, I can infer that some thought was put into it, and I value that. The parts of the MET I recall most fondly are when SF themes are actually explored, at least a little, rather than simply used as plot devices. Another little example: the exchange between Adams and Chakwas about synthetic life, with Adams asserting "we're all machines" while Chakwas asserting there was something more about organic life. *I recommend his (non-DA) fantasy books. The style is not my favorite - too much over-the-top-ness - but that's just preference. They're quite good. How was legion made less alien? ME2 directly shows the Geth can have different and individual mentalities. That is the only reason why the Heretics even work. A certain portion of the Geth willingly decided their action was the correct one to follow a Reaper. Legion even explicitly tells you that. The Heretics were not hacked or reprogrammed they decided by their own choice to separate and the True Geth let them go. Not to mention Legion and his over 1k Geth programs were separated from the Geth Collective for months if not years depending on when he left to find Shepard. Different experiences that are not shared among the collective will alter Legion's personal outlooks and mentalities while other Geth remain different. Once reintegrated into the Geth Collective it's unique memories and experiences would undoubtedly cause an effect and change the perspective and actions of the rest of the Geth. They already had individuality the only difference is they are able to share memories in a way that we can't even begin to comprehend. Communicating at speeds organic life is incapable of. With out the short comings of pride, ego or emotions to get in the way of rational discussions. So it appears they are rather monolithic mentality only because of how they exist. The change of them into fully realized AI with a more defined sense of self because they are no longer so interdependent on each other didn't change anything about them other then improve them. On top of that their massive interdependence on each other to achieve any form of intelligence or sentence is a strength and terrible weakness at the same time. A weakness the Quarians exploited then the Reapers exploited to destroy/enslave them. The only way they would survive the Reaper invasion would be to remove that weakness and the Reaper code upgrade is the only way. Now they are no longer so interdependent on each other for intelligence and can operate as individual freeing them of that weakness they suffer while still allowing for their strengths as a unified mind that is capable of communicating with each other near the speed of light, sharing memories and facts allowing them act almost as one being. Complaints like this seem to miss context. The context of how the Geth operate or at least how we are told they operate, and the context of the change and reasons for it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 1:12:54 GMT
No, I don't. The writers are 100% human, the readers are 100% human. Everything that informs how we all think about alien-ness is human. Our imaginations are 100% human and we call upon our history to create imaginings of our future. How "alien" something will feel to the individual depends on what bits of humanity they are familiar with. To some, no doubt, the hanar parallels to human religious groups are less obvious because maybe they've never heard of a saint's name. Even the more exotic physical appearances of aliens are routed in what we humans see in other species here on earth. That Shepard can use the line "big stupid jellyfish" when referring to hanar just exemplifies the reality that they are not really all that alien to any of us. What made it easier for sci-fi writers of the past to create an aura of alien-ness was that there was generally more about the world that many people were not as familiar with than they are today. We were more isolated, so something simply coming from the history of another culture seemed more alien to us. It is probably very difficult, if not impossible, to create a character you can interact with without any human aspects, but that's not necessary. In order to approximate an alien mindset, you can enhance certain human traits and downplay or remove others. I think Bioware successfully went a little in this direction two times: with Cole in DAI and - ironically - with David Archer in ME3. Of course, neither instance was SF (David Archer was IN an SF story, but he didn't represent an SF concept), but SF stories using "structurally unusual human minds" as an "alien" theme have been created. C S Friedman's "This Alien Shore" is one of the best works of SF I know. The above condition also leaves a loophole that has also been used in SF: The "The Red" trilogy by Linda Nagata features an AI that never loses its alienness because nobody has ever found out how to directly communicate with it. You can also showcase an alien mindset by giving your alien mind priorities and decisions that, while the writer may be able to imagine them, a human would never actually have or make. ME3's Catalyst had great potential in this regard, and I've always argued it is not insane, shackled to a faulty programmer's code or suchlike, as many people argue, but simply had completely non-human priorities and a completely pragmatic attitude. Had the games not pushed the horror up to eleven, suggesting "gross gratuitous evil" rather than the required clinical detachment, and had we been allowed to explore the Catalyst's priorities in some depth, with dialogue on both sides that made sense, it might even have worked. Finally, there are ways to express a character's alienness in spite of eventually establishing understandable communication: In E William Brown's "Perilous Waif" the protagonist, Alice Long, attempts to communicate with an AI, but she can only do it because she has a highly-enhanced computer implant thoroughly integrated with her brain, and after exchanging mathematical concepts for a while to establish a framework. So yes, I think SF can approximate alien mindsets, at least enough to deal with them, and that which makes them alien, or that which enables communication in spite of it, in some depth. In addition, we were not just talking about alien characters, but about ideas and technologies. In the "Corporation Wars" trilogy by Ken MacLeod, reconstructed human minds live within a simulation long after their originals died, and we see, for instance, a character reflecting on the fact that it's not economical to run all parts of a simulation all the time if there's no one to experience it. Also parts of his life in the simulation have never been actually experienced by anyone, even though he remembers having experienced them. Nonetheless, he experiences his life as meaningful. It is a setup alien enough that thinking about it too deeply could drive people to insanity. Careful - The character of David Archer was very much formed around popular opinions regarding persons with autism at the time the DLC was written. Those opinions have changed somewhat since then. While different from the majority, autism is still a very human condition and involves a form of a very human mindset. In addition, the behaviors of AIs in this day and age are becoming less and less "alien" to us as neural network technologies continue to advance. The "fear factor" is diminishing overall. As I mentioned previously, part of ME1's success is that it struck a chord brought about by people wondering/fearing what was going to happen when the Millennium clicked over because of our heavy reliance on computer tech. People today don't, in general, have the same level of concern.
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Post by gkonone on Aug 7, 2018 14:48:49 GMT
Him not being there for ME2 is probably the main reason they screwed over the Virmire companions. He did a great job with Ashley in ME1 and in ME2 she got next to nothing. Although writers probably don't have that much influence in deciding what happens in the grande scheme of things. I doubt if he were around for ME2 it would have changed much as far as the fate of the Virmire survivors goes. They really wanted to shift the focus towards the new companions in ME2.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 7, 2018 15:20:02 GMT
Him not being there for ME2 is probably the main reason they screwed over the Virmire companions. He did a great job with Ashley in ME1 and in ME2 she got next to nothing. Although writers probably don't have that much influence in deciding what happens in the grande scheme of things. I doubt if he were around for ME2 it would have changed much as far as the fate of the Virmire survivors goes. They really wanted to shift the focus towards the new companions in ME2.The exact reason I thought Garrus and Tali were out of place in ME2.
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 8, 2018 12:38:04 GMT
Well, I sort of buck the trend about Legion and EDI too... I think their stories were always destined to be "pinnochio" ones. I think the seeds of where that ended were sown right when both characters were first introduced to us. That there was an intention to "humanize" the geth in some way, I think, was even shown in ME1 with the "place of worship" they were shown to have constructed on Feros. That they, overall, would wind up subservient somehow to the Reapers, I think, was also foreshadowed by Saren's dialogue in ME1. In truth, their characters didn't go anywhere in ME3 that I didn't expect from their introduction in ME2. Even the "romance" with Joker, to me, was totally predictable. No doubt, L'Etoile left because he disagreed with some of it... but I think it's likely that he was at odds with the original vision for that story arc from start and just didn't have enough influence to change it to what he wanted. The fans may have liked his ideas better than the original ones... but I do believe it's the original ones we wound up with and not something fabricated only after L'Etoile left the company. I definitely agree that the foundations had been laid for that geth storyline. I didn't like how far they took it. I felt like the geth should've been just beginning to explore these type of concepts. You're definitely right, though; the foundations were already laid. EDI's ME3 story was a mess. It was funny enough when Joker was romancing the ship at the end of ME2. It just got stupid when she got a body. I don't think I even need to go any further. One either likes, or not. I'm not sure why Chris left. If it really was because he couldn't get on board with the prevailing vision, I guess I admire his clarity of vision, and question his ability to work on a team. I guess its more of a catch 22 in that sense. Either he leaves because he disagrees with the prevailing vision of the project, and is decried as someone who doesn't work well with others. Or he stays and has his work, focused on maintaining a consistent, believable universe, changed by higher ups, who are increasingly abandoning the franchise's science fiction foundations in favor of the 'Rule of Cool' and characters before plot mentality.
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Post by Element Zero on Aug 9, 2018 4:26:28 GMT
I definitely agree that the foundations had been laid for that geth storyline. I didn't like how far they took it. I felt like the geth should've been just beginning to explore these type of concepts. You're definitely right, though; the foundations were already laid. EDI's ME3 story was a mess. It was funny enough when Joker was romancing the ship at the end of ME2. It just got stupid when she got a body. I don't think I even need to go any further. One either likes, or not. I'm not sure why Chris left. If it really was because he couldn't get on board with the prevailing vision, I guess I admire his clarity of vision, and question his ability to work on a team. I guess its more of a catch 22 in that sense. Either he leaves because he disagrees with the prevailing vision of the project, and is decried as someone who doesn't work well with others. Or he stays and has his work, focused on maintaining a consistent, believable universe, changed by higher ups, who are increasingly abandoning the franchise's science fiction foundations in favor of the 'Rule of Cool' and characters before plot mentality. I don't really see why they felt the "rule of cool" stuff was so necessary. The game already had plenty of that. The more cerebral delivery of some of the underpinning lore was a nice counter-balance. I'm generally not one to just bash Mac Walters. I feel like he gets more heat than he could posdibly deserve. That said, he (allegedly) always seems to be involved when ridiculous, "rule of cool" stuff usurps more sensible ideas.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 9, 2018 4:36:05 GMT
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Post by Element Zero on Aug 9, 2018 4:39:14 GMT
On a epic scale! I remembered having the original discussion, but was surprised how long it had been. Vortex13 dug deep for this one. EDIT: Not Vortex, it seems. It was our newer member. Google searches lead into strange, forgotten corners, sometimes.
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 9, 2018 12:40:10 GMT
I guess its more of a catch 22 in that sense. Either he leaves because he disagrees with the prevailing vision of the project, and is decried as someone who doesn't work well with others. Or he stays and has his work, focused on maintaining a consistent, believable universe, changed by higher ups, who are increasingly abandoning the franchise's science fiction foundations in favor of the 'Rule of Cool' and characters before plot mentality. I don't really see why they felt the "rule of cool" stuff was so necessary. The game already had plenty of that. The more cerebral delivery of some of the underpinning lore was a nice counter-balance. I'm generally not one to just bash Mac Walters. I feel like he gets more heat than he could posdibly deserve. That said, he (allegedly) always seems to be involved when ridiculous, "rule of cool" stuff usurps more sensible ideas. I feel the same. And I don't view Mac Walters as a bad writer, per say, but I do feel that he isn't a good choice for being lead writer. He is a good character writer, but without any real oversight to reign him in, it's hurt the series overall (IMO). Case in point being his unabashedly favorable treatment towards Cerberus. Forget Liara being the franchise writer's pet, it's Cerberus that takes home that prize. Going from forgettable d-plot villains and mad scientists in ME 1. To an ultra-secret black ops splinter group; with more money than several other species; that players have to work with in ME 2. To becoming the Sith Empire; with fleets on par with other species' militaries; and then somehow being more concerning to the Reapers than the rest of the allied forces; despite obviously being indoctrinated; in ME 3. To finally getting their own establishment in ME:A and the implication that they will be a major player in any forthcoming sequels. Cerberus was Mac's baby and the amount of attention it received over the course of the the last two thirds of the original trilogy really didn't do any favors to the rest of the game (again IMO).
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Post by sgtreed24 on Aug 9, 2018 12:47:47 GMT
Does anything you just said invalidate that his writing made Mass Effect better, and his continued presence would have improved it, even if he may not have been able to save it? I don't think that his writing in ME1 and ME2 stands up any better than the writing done by other members of the ME1 and ME2 team and, as such, I think it's a pretty lofty assumption that his continued presence in ME3 would have made a significant difference there. It would have. At least for Ashley. She wasn't Ashley in ME3.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 21, 2018 2:40:35 GMT
I don't think that his writing in ME1 and ME2 stands up any better than the writing done by other members of the ME1 and ME2 team and, as such, I think it's a pretty lofty assumption that his continued presence in ME3 would have made a significant difference there. It would have. At least for Ashley. She wasn't Ashley in ME3. Who is Ash? Because in ME 1 she was mostly the character chosen to be the "these people are strange and I distrust them because they are strange." Then after getting to know them "they might be different but we are all a like inside" A character that has almost no character traits can't really be hurt by different writers.
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