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Post by Psychevore on Mar 5, 2017 21:18:29 GMT
Ladies playing a big role in Andromeda exploration is good.
I just want BioWare to STOP hitting female characters with UGLY STICK.Yeah, because looks are all that matters right? You are part of the problem. A lot of people in this thread are part of the problem.
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Post by zeowik on Mar 5, 2017 21:19:21 GMT
If it is a statement, its not one that interferes with the coherence or verisimilitude of the setting, so you're right not to care about it. That is my point. While I don't really care about the "issue" itself, I do find political statements in my entertainment to be an annoyance. I detest preaching.
Presenting all story from a position that tries too hard to be neutral on everything really wouldn't tell a very good story in my opinion. Let's be real here. To some people a woman so much as existing in a position of authority is preaching, or LGBT people existing at all for that matter. I think it's a bit of a reach to draw up a straw man argument declaring Bioware's intentions and then be upset about that straw man all before the game is even out.
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 5, 2017 21:21:55 GMT
While I don't really care about the "issue" itself, I do find political statements in my entertainment to be an annoyance. I detest preaching.
Presenting all story from a position that tries too hard to be neutral on everything really wouldn't tell a very good story in my opinion. Let's be real here. To some people a woman so much as existing in a position of authority is preaching, or LGBT people existing at all for that matter. I think it's a bit of a reach to draw up a straw man argument declaring Bioware's intentions and then be upset about that straw man all before the game is even out. Haha, yeah. Like usual, a day or two after release there'll be angry threads about 'Bioware shoving the gay agenda down our throaths' because there's a gay guy.
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Post by Cyonan on Mar 5, 2017 21:23:52 GMT
I have to say that I don't mind women being on top every so often.
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Post by vonuber on Mar 5, 2017 21:32:55 GMT
I have to say that I don't mind women being on top every so often.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 5, 2017 21:33:35 GMT
It's one of my favorite positions. Better view.
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 5, 2017 21:39:13 GMT
While I don't really care about the "issue" itself, I do find political statements in my entertainment to be an annoyance. I detest preaching.
Presenting all story from a position that tries too hard to be neutral on everything really wouldn't tell a very good story in my opinion. Let's be real here. To some people a woman so much as existing in a position of authority is preaching, or LGBT people existing at all for that matter. I think it's a bit of a reach to draw up a straw man argument declaring Bioware's intentions and then be upset about that straw man all before the game is even out. Disproving a straw man with a straw man... straw man-ception!
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Post by Wulfram on Mar 5, 2017 22:02:00 GMT
All the top positions aren't held by women. We've got Alec as pathfinder, and the salarian politician guy. Even if we ignore Alec, we've got as far as I can see 4 women in genuinely "top" positions (Garson, Addison, Nakmor and Kelley). The odds of 4 people sharing the same gender by chance is 1 in 8, assuming a population is 50/50, which is not all weird or extreme. 1 in 8 coincidences happen all the time. Wouldn't the correct question be what are the odds of at least four out of six people sharing the same gender? Or four out of seven or more depending on how we're counting top positions. Probably, but I reckoned that picking a conservative option would limit arguing about who qualifies. (Also, "at least x out of y" is tougher maths)
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 5, 2017 22:08:39 GMT
As a straight man, I actually love the female shoehorning that the Regressives are doing in all forms of entertainment. Why ? Because it absolves me of any social responsibility that a man is traditionally expected to have with regards to women. In the days of yore, any time a woman encounters any discomfort or difficulty, men are expected by society to step up and help them, even if it is against the man's self interest. That's what being a real man meant - Chivalry, self sacrifice etc. Now though, because women are supposed to be strong, independent and empowered...Men no longer have to waste their time or their lives or their self respect to be chivalrous, to be self-sacrificial or to be a disposable utility. These days, when a woman has a problem or expects privileged treatment, I just tell them that real women are supposed to be strong, independent and empowered...So they should fix their own problems and issues themselves,that I will not aid them unless they give me something tangible like money...& then stand back and enjoy the glorious schadenfreude... Many men these days worry about feminism and the female driven social narrative but in my view, these things have resulted in the liberation of men. I no longer have to care about getting married or bothering with romantic relationships, because women have made both unappealing and risky. I no longer have to worry about sex because women give it away quite freely these days ansd good porn is freely available. I no longer have to be like the the dumb cucks who stayed on the Titanic to drown or the simps who open doors for women or carry heavy things for them because its wimminz first - Fuck that shit, its me first. I wholeheartedly support Bioware's attempts to liberate men from their traditional responsibilities and making them free. I know women who are cool with that. They tend to be in STEM. lol
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 5, 2017 22:16:29 GMT
As a straight man, I actually love the female shoehorning that the Regressives are doing in all forms of entertainment. Why ? Because it absolves me of any social responsibility that a man is traditionally expected to have with regards to women. ... The problem is that today's feminists, at least those referring to themselves as "third wave feminists", want to keep the cake and eat it too.
They don't want actual equality, they aim for supremacy.
The fact that most justice systems in the west are more lenient on female offenders is not something seen as a problem by them. When a wife that was earning more than the husband was made by the court to pay to the husband during a divorce case, feminists were outraged.
Who cares about male suicide rate compared to female, when video games "objectify" female characters?
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Post by laxian on Mar 5, 2017 23:05:23 GMT
Before i give my thoughts on this, just see: -AI's Founder, Creator and Leader: Jien Garson -Director of Colonial Affairs: Foster Addison etc. I feel like you are doing what you claim to dislike - the elevation of one over the other. I know this is bait but I want to have a reasonable conversation so you, the OP, DON'T feel bad. So, we also have: Alec Ryder, All-Around Badass and clearly an authority figure. And a fine, fine example of a conventionally good-looking man. Doesn't matter if he's in the game 50 mins or 50 hours - dude will clearly hang over the proceedings whatever happens. Scott Ryder, Another Conventionally Good Looking Man Who is also The Playable Protagonist. And as a lady, I don't think his line is 'like a girl' at all. Someone else said Tony Stark, and that's pretty much how I saw it. And Tony Stark is not a bad dude to emulate. Liam Kosta, your f'n Crisis Response Specialist. Crisis. Response. So, basically Space SWAT. Kallo Jath, kickass Space Salamander Pilot Jarun Tann, Significant Salarian Politician Jaal - I know nothing about him beyond his Tactical Space Poncho, but the dude is enormous and looks like a brawler. Drack. THEN we also have allll the folks that we haven't yet met: Gil Brodie, CHIEF Engineer. Can't run those fancy ships without an Engineer. (in this - I would argue that BW could have flipped the trope of "Lady = Head Doctor" and "Man = Chief Engineer" here). Mystery Man Reyes, clearly someone of importance and influence. AND SO MANY MORE. Someone else made a point to me offline about how they hope that there would be 'equal opportunity villainy' for men and women in ME:A. You know what I have a hard time remembering in the OT? Bad bad lady villains. We got Brooks in DLC. Benezia was mind-controlled, doesn't count. Helena Blake, but you could convince her to reform her life. Aria was totally redeemable. Even MORINTH was given an 'out' by the fact of her genetics. But the dudes? They were just bad. Fist. That skeezy politician from Thane's loyalty quest. Harkin. Sidonis. Warden Kuril. Jacob's dad (and his officers). Han'Gerrel, that jerk. Creepy f-n Gavin Archer. Donovan Hock. Vido Santiago. The list goes on and on. We don't know anything about Jien, Foster, or Sloane really, except it looks like Sloane went bad. I would like more "gray" or even "morally bankrupt" ladies/other represented in video games because that's how the world really is. We're not all Nef's mother, or Rebecca the young mother Widow, or Khalisah the Punching Bag. There are some ladies that want to watch the world burn, and they want to burn it themselves and not for some dude. I would think that you, as a man, would also get tired of only seeing mostly men filling the "sleazy, evil asshole role". Don't jump to conclusions about characters you know nothing about based on their gender - find out their stories. I think there's something fishy about the whole lot of that AI crew..... Well, yes: People on our ship/squad are male, but the OP was talking about Initiative Leadership and only one of the people on your list (Alec Ryder) half way qualifies for that, he's the pathfinder, but in the end he's just a "small time scout" (hell, the captain of the Hyperion, his home Ark, doesn't want him butting into her jurisdiction (!) and that captain - again - is a woman, too!) So while I don't really care ATM (we don't know enough to judge the game yet IMHO!), I know where the OP is coming from and frankly: I don't want gender politics in my games and frankly this looks like that (if female Ryder gets some kind of bonus (or male Ryder gets a disadvantage of some kind because he's "just a man") then I am done with Bioware...even if it's a minor thing like a quote about her having excellent female intuition or other some such crap!) Manveer is bad enough (as is that GTA-Virtual-Rape girl), but as long as those people don't influence the games then I am ok with them (I want the both fired, but I will not raise a stink about it!) greetings LAX
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Post by laxian on Mar 5, 2017 23:42:12 GMT
It's funny how a lot of these arguments have only come about when the status quo of male dominance in society is under threat. How hum. For what it's worth, I was raise by my dad only (my mum left my dad, me and my sisters when I was 5) and it was tough. Doesn't make me hate women or get bitter about it, or start bemoaning about people on tumbler or bioware apparently being the vanguard of militant feminism (seriously, do you lot ever actually read what you write?). Society is still dominated by men- for example, it's different here in the UK but for you colonists look at the fight over abortion, or even contraception. The fact that it is even up for debate says a lot (and of course religion is a factor - but even that is patriarchal). People bemoaning that female characters are included and are in positions of power, or not available as sexual conquests for a male character, or even that it is all some insidious plot (by men mostly! How does that work eh?) to emasculate men via a computer game really need to take a good, long hard look at themselves. And then grow up. Not really, look at school, university and college graduates (mostly women, especially at university/college level!), look at who's homeless more, who dies on the job more, who holds the more dangerous jobs (coal miners, sewer cleaners etc.), who controls most of the money (note: It's not men (in most cases!), just like men in relationships don't decide if the house is bought or not, that's why real estate agents sucker up to women more!)), who gets support left an right (domestic violence shelters for example seldom take men, despite figures showing that men are victims just as much as women (!) - don't believe me? Look it up yourself, so you can't say I doctored the statistic or only looked at statistics that confirm my POV (so no confirmation bias!)), who gets more money spent on their healthcare (example: Cancer research, more money is spent ond breat cancer research despite the fact that most women survive that - unlike prostate cancer in men!), who lives longer, who can ruin the other more easily (a woman just has to cry "rape!" and the man is ruined, even if he gets off in court (as the specter of suspicion will cling to him like the color of his skin!)), the draft (only for men!), war deaths (mostly men!), assault victims, people who get murdered (mostly men!) etc. etc. etc. (just a small number of the overwhelming number of examples!) Most men aren't well off (no, don't start with any patriarchy arguments, how it hurts men, too or some such tripe - there is not patriarchy, money and fame that's what's dominating (and newsflash: Women can have shitloads of money, too - look at Hillary Clinton, she's fucking rich, as is for example Condoleza Rice and both are powerful women!)) and laws are in favor of women in most cases (especially in family/divorce court, but also laws concerning discrimination (men can in most cases not even take advantage of those laws!)...then there's the fact that women (even if you account for age, race, background etc.) receive lesser court sentences (or even get away without punishment if they only turn on the waterworks and find a sympathetic judge or if they have kids - "Can't lock up a mother" (they don't say that about dads, do they?)) Also: It's not about the inclusion of women, hell it's not even about the inclusion of 50% women - it's about women running almost everything in the A.I. (from leadership to security to colonial administration!) If there were some men up there, then many people would not be concerned - but this way people are, just like they would have been concerned with an all female Council (or only female admirals in the Alliance Navy (which had some, which was damned great - I loved Spacer-Shepard's mother for example, captain and later admiral in the Alliance Navy! - but it was not totally dominated by them to the exclusion of male admirals!)) in the old trilogy (!) As for your parting shot: If you make a TV show with only men in charge and with women being shown as incompetent morrons (or damsels in distress) who need their men to keep them in line and prevent disaster all the time - guess who would want that show to be cancelled ASAP? If you said: Feminists, then you are right, but if you do this to men (many modern movies do, look at that all female Ghostbusters-Team!) it's ok because men are supposed to just take it quietly, like a good self-sacrificing man? Think again! I for one will not take it quietly! Hm...for someone raised by a single father you are quite the feminist (at least in your believes!) - I know women like you and most of them would scoff at your believes (most of them believe that you either make it on your own merrits or you don't deserve it), especially "patriarchy" (feminist term, hate it - especially since that hasn't been true in decades - second wave feminism and all that!)...i like second wave feminism, but I hate third wave (I want the radicals, like Anita Sarkeesian, GONE! SILENCED (no, not killed, but ignored, not being offered a plattform to spew their vile shit anymore!)) greetings LAX ps: Look up the statistics if you don't believe me (do it yourself, so you can't accuse me of doctoring them or of having confirmation bias by only looking at statistics I like and that confirm my POV!) Also: I agree on abortion: Women should have that right, but: So should men (no: They should not be able to force women to have one, but they should be able to walk away without taking any responsibility for the child - just like women can with abortion!)! Yeah, religion...humanity should rid itself of that (no more islamic terrorists without Islam and that's just one example!)
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Post by laxian on Mar 5, 2017 23:50:52 GMT
*snip* I don't think it's particularly extreme to suggest that aspects of a person like their sex, gender, orientation, skin color, religion, and the combinations thereof might play a role in how certain policies affect them. Misandry I haven't found to be that common. I will agree with you on the bias towards addressing problems that women face over the ones that men face. But there are more people like me than you might realize. And even if you still want to consider feminism a special advocacy group, many of the things they advocate for are actual issues of equality. So it still isn't actually a bad thing. As for criticism of strict egalitarianism, I'm reminded of a quote that stuck with me from a gender studies lecture: "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." Ok, bringing main guns to bare Let's start with this: You have of your own free will attended a Gender-Studies-Lecture! Sorry, but gender-studies is a brainwashing class IMHO (as it shows women as perpetual victims fighting against the perpetual oppressors: Men!) and not only that: It's useless (gender-studies will not get you a job later on!) Also: Citation needed! Show some things (more that one or two and no flimsy shit that can be easily debunked and also stuff that's important, not stuff like women wanting to be part of special forces, stuff that will affect many people and not just a handful!) that Feminists do that might help out men (I am coming up EMPTY and I am neither a Feminist nor an MRA (or god forbid: a MGTOW) and promote actual equality (haven't heard them wanting female draft for example - I only hear stuff that's already been debunkt a million times, like that Gender Wage Gap (which is bullshit!)!)! Come on, hit us with it! So, stage is your's! greetings LAX
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Post by laxian on Mar 6, 2017 0:34:05 GMT
Don't see a problem with it, I like a girl who knows how to take charge. Also, seriously? This game has so many real problems but instead you choose to bitch about this? -.- Citation needed! (Which problems do you see with this game so far? I only see some missed opportunities (armed Nomad (for vehicle combat!), orbital strikes (needs an armed Tempest!), close air support (needs: Armed Kodiak-Shuttle or some fighters!) and minor problems (almost all companions seem to favor close quarters combat and they don't have all that many abilities and you can't control their ability use, no tactical pause etc. etc.)...but nothing major so far!) greetings LAX
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Post by jpcab on Mar 6, 2017 0:40:38 GMT
Let man make war. Girls can fo the rest.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Mar 6, 2017 0:44:49 GMT
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 6, 2017 0:48:50 GMT
Well, yes: People on our ship/squad are male, but the OP was talking about Initiative Leadership and only one of the people on your list (Alec Ryder) half way qualifies for that, he's the pathfinder, but in the end he's just a "small time scout" (hell, the captain of the Hyperion, his home Ark, doesn't want him butting into her jurisdiction (!) and that captain - again - is a woman, too!) Umm... you did see the part where the OP admitted that the thread was bait, right? Of course he only mentioned the female leaders. If he mentioned male leaders, the jig would have been up.
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Post by laxian on Mar 6, 2017 1:02:10 GMT
Let man make war. Girls can fo the rest. In your dreams! If all women stopped working this second society would suffer badly (women do important things, no doubt about it), but it would not collapse (!) - if men did the same (stop working today and let women figure it out on their own) society would be in shambles (!) Electricity would go out, sewers would stop working, no more clean water, no more stuff delivered to the supermarket, garbage would pile up on the street etc. etc. greetings LAX
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Post by laxian on Mar 6, 2017 1:03:17 GMT
Umm... you did see the part where the OP admitted that the thread was bait, right? Of course he only mentioned the female leaders. If he mentioned male leaders, the jig would have been up. Bait or not (even if he's probably a troll): He ain't wrong you know? greetings LAX
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Post by bryanky5 on Mar 6, 2017 1:04:58 GMT
Guys I think it's been established that the Andromeda Initiative is about going to Andromeda. Not sure what the fuss is about?
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Post by kaind on Mar 6, 2017 1:05:04 GMT
Bait or not (even if he's probably a troll): He ain't wrong you know? greetings LAX Do you really care what set of genitals a person in command has?
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Post by laxian on Mar 6, 2017 1:12:29 GMT
Bait or not (even if he's probably a troll): He ain't wrong you know? greetings LAX Do you really care what set of genitals a person in command has? Over all? No! In fact I pride myself on the fact that I don't accept gender stereotypes, in fact I will judge every person by their merits (gender is not a consideration, unless they use it to get out of certain work ("This is women's/men's work, I don't want to do this!"), even if they don't outright say it but say stuff like "That is too heavy" (if something can be lifted by a 12 year old boy than it's not to heavy for a woman to lift, sorry you are just shirking work!) or "My husband does all the work around the house" (as if that means she shouldn't fucking help him!), same goes of course for "My wife does all the cooking/cleaning/laundry etc." (help her god damned - unless of course she's a housewife and you work full time!). Or if they behave a certain way - I hate the princess type girly women (I just do, so useless...most of them are so helpless when they have problems like a flat tire and similar things), same for macho-men (don't like men who are "bad-boys" and treat women like shit)...both are IMHO the worst of their gender and should just go die in a hole somewhere! Give me nice guys and tomboy women any day!) It just feels like they are pushing gender politics (I mean they employ people like Manveer Heir and that virtual-GTA-rape-girl, so scepticism is warranted!) greetings LAX
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Post by kaind on Mar 6, 2017 1:16:16 GMT
Do you really care what set of genitals a person in command has? Over all? No! In fact I pride myself on the fact that I don't accept gender stereotypes, in fact I will judge every person by their merits (gender is not a consideration, unless they use it to get out of certain work ("This is women's/men's work, I don't want to do this!"), even if they don't outright say it but say stuff like "That is too heavy" (if something can be lifted by a 12 year old boy than it's not to heavy for a woman to lift, sorry you are just shirking work!) or "My husband does all the work around the house" (as if that means she shouldn't fucking help him!), same goes of course for "My wife does all the cooking/cleaning/laundry etc." (help her god damned - unless of course she's a housewife and you work full time!)) It just feels like they are pushing gender politics (I mean they employ people like Manveer Heir and that virtual-GTA-rape-girl, so scepticism is warranted!) greetings LAX I don't think the two are related and I don't think that gender diversity when it comes to positions of power is in any way relevant. What other things indicate to you that they push gender politics, and what kind of politics are those?
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Post by laxian on Mar 6, 2017 1:27:38 GMT
I don't think the two are related and I don't think that gender diversity when it comes to positions of power is in any way relevant. What other things indicate to you that they push gender politics, and what kind of politics are those? Manveer Heir! GTA-Virtual-Rape-Girl! Especially Manveer of course (that they don't reprimand him for his racist statements or fire him - I mean if he's a racist, ok - but if he's a racist that seems to have the backing of Bioware? Damned, guys get rid of this toxic guy ASAP! (it's what I would do, he's damaging Bioware itself with his statements, if he had done them without his name attached to them? Ok, but he downright states that he's a developer at Bioware (and not a small time dev. either, he's a senior developer if I remember this right!))) Enough said I think, those two make me very cautious! greetins LAX
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kaind
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 605 Likes: 511
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Oct 10, 2017 22:21:08 GMT
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kaind
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Jan 24, 2017 18:55:50 GMT
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kaind
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by kaind on Mar 6, 2017 1:37:10 GMT
I don't think the two are related and I don't think that gender diversity when it comes to positions of power is in any way relevant. What other things indicate to you that they push gender politics, and what kind of politics are those? Manveer Heir! GTA-Virtual-Rape-Girl! Especially Manveer of course (that they don't reprimand him for his racist statements or fire him - I mean if he's a racist, ok - but if he's a racist that seems to have the backing of Bioware? Damned, guys get rid of this toxic guy ASAP! (it's what I would do, he's damaging Bioware itself with his statements, if he had done them without his name attached to them? Ok, but he downright states that he's a developer at Bioware (and not a small time dev. either, he's a senior developer if I remember this right!))) Enough said I think, those two make me very cautious! greetins LAX Manveer is a gameplay designer not a plot designer. Tbh I think people should be free to express their opinions in their free time on their private accounts, so long as that doesn't carry over into unlawful actions, whether it's racists like Manveer or some guy from the KKK, let them chat shit, just so long as at their workplace they behave. Freedom of speech and all that. Edit: Also btw, Manveer doesn't relate to gender politics, since he just hates white people, women included. I have no idea who this girl is. What is her position at Bioware? Edit: Ok, nvm I found her, you should've just said Sam Maggs instead of ''gta rape girl'', jesus. Yes I agree, when a writer has those kind of views, the plot has a good chance to be shitty.
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