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Post by NUM13ER on Mar 7, 2017 12:56:55 GMT
However with Bioware, I feel like I can safely make some assumptions in regards to what motivated some of their design decisions, like this one, or the decision to make the Nomad and Tempest unarmed despite what common sense (and sheer fun factor) would dictate. Like the gratuitous arse shots of miranda? EDI's cameltoe? Jack being cured by the power of the Penis? Where do those fit in your assumptions? Seems very odd to accuse Bioware of having this political agenda whilst at the same time doing exactly the opposite. The gratuitous fanservice I grant you but isn't Jack being "cured" by Shep because he's less interested in sex and more interested in something meaningful? If you take her up on her offer for some fast sex she actually loses all respect for you, which also carries into the sequel if she survives.
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Post by vonuber on Mar 7, 2017 13:03:56 GMT
isn't Jack being "cured" by Shep because he's less interested in sex and more interested in something meaningful? If you take her up on her offer for some fast sex she actually loses all respect for you, which also carries into the sequel if she survives. I'm paraphrasing for comedic effect - it's in comparison to the fact that if you are a femshep there's nothing you can do to help her. Gotta bang to cure!
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Post by mikaelnovasun on Mar 7, 2017 13:15:14 GMT
isn't Jack being "cured" by Shep because he's less interested in sex and more interested in something meaningful? If you take her up on her offer for some fast sex she actually loses all respect for you, which also carries into the sequel if she survives. I'm paraphrasing for comedic effect - it's in comparison to the fact that if you are a femshep there's nothing you can do to help her. Gotta bang to cure! Really nothing you can do for her? Regardless of Shepard's gender she grows as a person due to his or her influence. She stops looking out solely for herself, and takes a bunch of teenagers under her charge. She even cares enough to clean up her language in front of the kids.
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urkibalurki
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Post by urkibalurki on Mar 7, 2017 13:19:53 GMT
Oh, yeah. Seventeenth page of this "useful" thread...
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Post by vonuber on Mar 7, 2017 13:20:02 GMT
Really nothing you can do for her? Regardless of Shepard's gender she grows as a person due to his or her influence. She stops looking out solely for herself, and takes a bunch of teenagers under her charge. She even cares enough to clean up her language in front of the kids. You are correct in that is how she turns out. I suspect it is more to ease of writing for ME3 - choose the 'cured' jack to run with - than having to have different versions of her. For example she can still be very disturbed if you choose to go down that route (including encouraging her to murder the guy on Pragia).
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Post by jastall on Mar 7, 2017 13:36:07 GMT
Entertainement being ''neutral and apolitical'' sounds not only boring as all hell to me, but impossible as soon as you tackle any story more complex than ''good guys punch bad guys in the face, the end''. Which is fine to have, but surely not all stories have to be so limited. Whenever you depict stuff such as war, economics, social tensions, or any other topic that comes up in real life, it's political. It happens that some topic garner more press around the gaming community than others, true, and Bioware likes to write about some of these topics. Why not? Video games aren't mindless entertainement, not always. I enjoy games like DOOM as much as anyone, yet being challenged in your views and seeing stuff you don't like in a game is very much fine by me too. For instance, I found Cerberus's xenophobic political positions abhorent myself, but I don't think it means they should have been removed or tossed to the wayside at all (I loathe Cerberus for different reasons). I also cringed when The Witcher waved its anti-war, anti-religion message in my face at every single opportunity it got, but it was part of the setting so I accepted it. Not that I disagreed with the basic points, but they were even less subtle about it than Bioware ever was, yet few people said anything or found it ''too political'' simply because these issues aren't very contentious to the gaming public at large. To say nothing of one of my favorite RPGs of all time, Fallout New Vegas, which is an incredibly political game at its core, tackling too many themes for me to list them all and clearly taking cues from recent history. And you might not like the explanations given by Gaider, that's your prerogative, but that doesn't mean that the explanation is not valid. The Qunari make exceptions without, in their mind, making exceptions for some individuals. I cited Sten, you could say the same of Hawke being recognized as bas-alitan by the Arishok. He's still a filthy bas that needs to be re-educated for his own good, but he's a special one or something. Or how they forbid women from being soldiers, but being spies that happen to fight a lot (Tallis) is totes fine. The ability to ignore specific parts of the Qun when it suits them is a well-documented aspect of the Qunari even before Inquisition. I grant you that the writers could have exposed this aspect of their philosophy in greater details, but let's not act as if they pulled it out of their rear. Also, why is it a political point in particular when females dominate leadership? When males dominate, does it mean ''the writers think males are better''? When females do, it means ''the writers think females are better''? If it's a perfectly even split, does it then mean that ''the writers were going for a quota, so political''? When is it not ''political''? I just think people are incredibly selective as to what they see as ''too political''. Oftentimes it seems all but undistinguishable from ''topics I don't happen to like''. Hardly. Entertainment/art doesn't have to be obviously political to be great. I can point out a large number of examples that don't have OBVIOUS political points shoved in, at least not things which are immediately identical with current political issues. Sure you can try to infer and use things as allegories but it's hardly the same as copy/pasting the standard "progressive" attitude into a game about medieval fantasy just because it's about your pet issue.
There is a difference between seeing familiar themes, of war, of poverty, and other matters in entertainment, to having the writers speak through the mouth of a sock-puppet character.
In TW3 Geralt meets a gay hunter on one of his quests, the hunter doesn't spout modern political phrases, and he doesn't give Geralt a quest about his sexuality. However, if you ask him, he tells you that he was exiled as a freak do to some unfortunate circumstances. You can be sympathetic if you wish.
So here we have a gay character, that has something in common with the protagonist, but luckily isn't a walking political statement, it's immersive, appropriate to the state of the world, and just good writing. As for TW having themes of anti-religion and anti-war, you need to take into account that the story is being told from the rather unique point of view of a protagonist which was repeatedly screwed by the powerful people of his world (often literally... ), that inevitably leads to a certain disillusionment with the "system".
They also don't beat the player with their point over the head, they just show you a rather crappy world, filled with crappy people, and let you draw your own conclusions. They don't tell you what "the point" is, as opposed to Bioware. They don't bother with Disneifying a medieval fantasy in the manner BW likes to do.
As for the Qunari, it's not about me liking or disliking Gaider's point, it's about him building the lore in one way and then adding excuses for his pet issues. I outlined why I think that his reasoning is flawed, answering with, "well the Qun is illogical anyway" is a weak answer. You are welcome to actually explain why my reasoning is not valid.
Women do make for better spies in many circumstances, the Qun is not wrong about that.
So let me get this straight, you like the political message, and therefore it's good? What if you disliked it? Personally I don't want ANY obvious political messages. I think that keeping things obfuscated and original enough to stand on it's own is much better than using your entertainment medium as a soapbox.
In this context, keeping something relatively close to an even split between genders allows the writers to neatly sidestep the quagmire of identity politics. There's also no reason NOT to do something like this, because assuming that an equal number of males and females applied, if chosen according to their merit, something close to an even split would be rather logical.
I'd argue that every hip and cool main character in The Witcher being atheists is just as much pandering to today's views as a few characters in Dragon Age being gay or transgender, and I say that as an atheist. Because otherwise we just pick and choose what kind of ideas ''fit'' a medieval European setting, never mind that fantasy is, well, fantasy and doesn't have to follow real life rules point by point. It's not just Geralt's opinion, mind. You can hardly find any religious figure, across the entire three game saga, that isn't corrupt or a zealous asshole, if not both. They're almost all sneering caricatures. Of course you can explain that via Geralt's perception filtering the facts, but that's a weak excuse IMO. It still remains that the games treat religion as something stupid people do, for the most part, which is easily as political and unsubtle as Bioware's fare. And it's definitely not representative of medieval Europe in the least. If you want to talk about a pet issue, that's one too. I've given you three other examples, before DAI, where the Qunari decide to make exceptions in their mind. To me, it's a well-established fact of the setting. We seem to be at a deadlock, so I won't pursue this any further. But I think the Qunari were meant to be read as ''they have strong gender roles, end of discussion''. Enforcing an even split just because you think it's good doesn't seem to be free of the political implications, to me. It would just be ''that thing you do because people won't complain then''. I don't think writing should be directed in such a way just to avoid offending people's sensibilities. Also, it's not like it would be the last time Bioware has female-dominated leadership; the Chantry in Dragon Age is a good example. The thing is, it's shown to be just as vulnerable to corruption, abuses of authority, greed and powermongering as any other organizations (if not moreso). So it definitely didn't feel like a shoe-horned feminist fantasy to me. Same with the Initiative, since we already have hints that the leadership has a fair bit of bad decisions and incompetence under their belt. If that ends up being the case, I fail to see the overwhelming *scare chord* agenda at work here. They happen to be women, and they happen to be flawed people. How's that such a politically-driven statement?
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Post by DomeWing333 on Mar 7, 2017 13:47:31 GMT
But it's your perception that it is politics. Was it politics when there were more men? Are you allergic to the "quote" button?
Answer: Depends.
When ME 1 was launched the perception was that the demographic is almost entirely made of male gamers. In an effort to appeal to this demographic, certain design decisions were made.
It had less to do with politics and more to do with the crowd the game was intended for. Admittedly, they were small minded. Great characters can be male or female, gender is largely irrelevant.
These days however it is quite clear that Bioware games attract a more diverse demographic. Keeping that in mind, there's really no reason not to go for a more or less equal roster.
Admittedly, if it wasn't Bioware this wouldn't have been even a blip on my radar, not beyond me raising an eyebrow perhaps. However with Bioware, I feel like I can safely make some assumptions in regards to what motivated some of their design decisions, like this one, or the decision to make the Nomad and Tempest unarmed despite what common sense (and sheer fun factor) would dictate.
What makes having more women in power now any less of a business decision than having more men in power before? With ME1, they were trying to cater to a largely male audience by having mostly men in power. Now, having already secured that large male audience, maybe they're trying to have more women in power to attract an increasingly female audience. That wouldn't be some grand political statement; that'd just be business as usual. Also, whether it's a political statement or a business move, the issue should ultimately be how it affects the quality of the game. Does adjusting the gender ratio in a game significantly impact how good it is? Would the original Mass Effect really have been made so much better just by making a few gender flips among the people in charge? I wouldn't think so. Things were fine then and they're fine now. None of this should be a blip on anyone's radar.
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jasonpogo
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Post by jasonpogo on Mar 7, 2017 14:20:30 GMT
How do people even think like this. I never once even thought to question what gender these fictional characters in this fictional world held these fictional positions.
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Post by aionis on Mar 7, 2017 15:17:10 GMT
I love all of the tears that Bioware brings out of ridiculous people like you too many gay ppl! too many trans ppl! too much girl power!1
Get a grip. There's hundred of games out there with all male-casts or male-power dominance. Go play those if you're so uncomfortable with how Bioware operates.
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Post by vonuber on Mar 7, 2017 15:54:08 GMT
I would say that DA:I is a more relevant example than ME:2. Fine, so what is it about DA:I (if you want to ignore everything else the company has done)? Is it because it didn't have these things? Is that the issue? I am struggling to see what your problem with having more women in charge than men is, that wasn't the case when it was reversed.
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Post by vonuber on Mar 7, 2017 16:04:58 GMT
Fine, so what is it about DA:I (if you want to ignore everything else the company has done)? Is it because it didn't have these things? Is that the issue? I am struggling to see what your problem with having more women in charge than men is, that wasn't the case when it was reversed. Yeah. I'm going to ignore your one-liners for now. Go read my other posts if you are interested, I covered my reasoning quite extensively, including the questions you added here. Yes your reasoning is that it is some sjw agenda from bioware, forcing politics down peoples throats. Yet the same didn't apply in reverse when it was majority men. Righto.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 16:55:20 GMT
Ive noticed that some people start screaming politics when it basically comes to women and minorities... like... not everything is political, I think MEA if it DOES get involved in politics will generally be about colonization... I think for a video game or well anything to choose one political opinion over another is generally limiting the amount of people who will actually play the game... its better for the video games to be essentially neutral to appeal to the most people, surely??? Or at least, as close to neutral as its possible to be... I mean, seriously, if you look over the ME and DA games and analyze everything in the same light that youd need to start thinking it was a political problem (at least from the information that we actually HAVE) then you could come to some pretty insane conclusions... things like: BioWare supports mass genocide because the Reapers are in their games I really cant believe that BioWare would make such an obvious political statement like that! Seriously though, like... I cant believe this thread is up to 18 pages... because theres 4 women in leadership roles... when we dont actually have THAT much information about the game and we dont really know too much about anyone... when there are better things to talk about which wont result in yeeetttt another political discussion when there are already faaarrrrrrrr too many of them... like... 4 women in leadership roles, there will be men also in leadership roles ofc, there will be good characters no matter what gender they happen to be, everything is good And to be honest, from the female characters I HAVE seen... I wouldnt mind them using a little girl power on me
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 7, 2017 17:08:28 GMT
Well, it's been mildly amusing. But all things to their proper places. Politics/social issues to the politics thread, MEA talk to its subforum and played out troll threads to the lock.
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