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Post by snorkamus on Mar 6, 2017 9:21:09 GMT
It's because female voice actors are cheaper then males...
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Post by vonuber on Mar 6, 2017 9:22:23 GMT
Why is it unrealistic to have a majority of women in leadership roles? Can someone explain this to me again? No-one seemed to complain about Hackett, Anderson, TIM, Udina, the leader of Feros, every single Turian etc and demand 'realistic proportions' of men to be in charge. If the wasn't for the Asari it would be a real sausage fest.
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Post by laughingbanana on Mar 6, 2017 9:23:15 GMT
WHO WILL GET THE LAST LAUGH? THE MAN, OR THE BANANA? Will Man see Banana before he steps on Banana? Or will Banana trick Man onto stepping on Banana? Why in both scenarios you have him stepping down on me
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Post by Abramsrunner on Mar 6, 2017 9:25:01 GMT
WHO WILL GET THE LAST LAUGH? THE MAN, OR THE BANANA? Will Man see Banana before he steps on Banana? Or will Banana trick Man onto stepping on Banana? Why in both scenarios you have him stepping down on me
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Post by laughingbanana on Mar 6, 2017 9:27:24 GMT
Well, with all the talk about "realistic" and "unrealistic" I thought you wouldn't mind if the situation is flipped and it is the men who is dominant over the women. And yet the women just can't do it, and the best that they should hope for is just "equal." Ah well. Speaking of which, how do you multiquote in here, can someone tell me? Your assumptions in regard to my opinions only point out your own prejudices. The fact that you continue to make them despite me making my opinions as clear as I can make them is outright intellectually dishonest of you.
To quote multiple posts you should click the "select post" option under the small wheel to the top right of the post for very post you want to quote. When you get to the final post click "quote" as usual, and all posts will be added as spate quotes.
Thank you for the tutorial
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Post by Lady Artifice on Mar 6, 2017 9:28:42 GMT
Even then it wouldn't be apolitical, because it would still be informed by the political worldview that women are just as eligible for those careers as men. And I would think that this "political view" is much more widely accepted and palatable than just about anything else, especially dominance of a single gender.
It's also not an outrageous statement to make. Equality is good. Very few people in the west actually object to equality. (without getting here into equality of opportunity Vs. equality of outcome)
But that's the thing. In any complex story, there is almost certainly going to be a political aspect involved. In the first Mass Effect game, it was often the focus on the nobility of soldiers versus the dishonor of politicians. The only thing that's accomplished by limiting a story's political narratives to those are that popular is...limiting it to those that are popular. As for this specific instance, if you think that equality is an acceptable element in the narrative, what political perspective do you think is involved here? Do you see this as Bioware pushing a narrative that women are somehow superior to men?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
Origin: ItsFreakinJesus
XBL Gamertag: ItsFreakinJesus
PSN: TheMadTitan
Posts: 848 Likes: 1,024
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Post by Cypher on Mar 6, 2017 9:32:09 GMT
The Qun was retconned/elaborated in on having an aspect of its culture that recognized transgender individuals. Beyond that little nugget, nothing about it changed. And how the hell did you feel you were being talked down to at any point during this? ... Because of the "why did you decide" line, as if 97% of people who're unfamiliar or unaccustomed to gender identity issues wouldn't frame the sentence in a similar manner? That whole tonal shift was all of three seconds, and everything except that is straight forward, matter of fact dialog. The Qun shouldn't have been retconned for the sake of identity politics, that's the whole point. Especially because it makes much more sense for huge authoritarians like the Qunari to ignore how an individual sees themselves.
Current identity politics have no place in a game about medieval fantasy.
If you want to realistically frame the struggles of an individual in this context, the least you should do is not copy/paste the standard modern identity politics response into this. But they care more about making a point than about framing it realistically in the given context.
It's barely even a retcon since even before Krem, lore already said that in certain situations, women could assume the roles of men in certain situations. The entirety of the three Dragon Age games were influenced by the modern political and religious framework while simultaneously taking influence from past cultures. None of this is hidden in any sort of context. They don't have to realistically frame the struggle because the struggle was all prior to present events summed up in a conversation. The struggle is over with in Krem's, therefore there's nothing to frame. And that's ignoring the fact that it's only two cultures being depicted as being indifferent to it and it's none of the societies we spent two prior games getting to know. And that's ignoring the fact that there's been entire societies and there still are societies that recognized even more than three genders and you're only viewing things through a standard, stereotypical western european sociopolitical lens as if some of these cultures that I just referred to aren't as old, if not older, than those that you base your world view on. Historically, identity politics line up regardless of the time period your setting is influenced on. Even still, all works of fiction are influenced by the politics surrounding their writers. It's why the X-Men were influenced by the Civil Rights movement, why Darth Sidious' Sith Empire was based on Nazi Germany, and why every villain in anything vaguely modern is some Middle Eastern pastiche.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 6, 2017 9:36:15 GMT
The point is that on average, something close to an even split is the most likely overall, and if you want to go with an apolitical story (hopefully) it makes the most sense to simply go with that and avoid the quagmire of identity politics. Of course, that's assuming that you want to avoid making political statements... One problem is that we're living in a time where this is often perceived as being political by default. So basically every possible setup could be made into a political statement. In real life, assuming a normal distribution with a 50:50 chance in a single case, there is still a significant probability for a thoroughly unequal outcome in any sufficiently small sample. For instance, there's a 12.5% chance for all members of a cast of four to be of the same gender if you roll dice (1/16 on both ends, makes 2/16). So - and I think we're in agreement here - the best anyone could do is to avoid the *impression* that there's a political intention behind any particular setup. And that would mean to use the most mainstream assumption (I think the assumption that men and woman are generally equally talented for almost all tasks can be considered mainstream in our culture) and adjust for random fluctuation.
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Post by laughingbanana on Mar 6, 2017 9:43:22 GMT
The Qun doesn't care about individual wills. Hell, in DA:I it was stated pretty obviously that the Qun put the importance of the...Qun, above all else, and individuals who defy that would be subjected to either "correction" or "elimination."
I suppose... it's good that they acknowledge people like Krem? But can you call it good that beyond that first acknowledgement, people like Krem would also be stripped of all individual wills and must subject themselves under the full authority of the Qun?
...
Wait, this is off-topic, isn't it, hahah.
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stysiaq
N3
Gigavorcha Breeder
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Origin: Stysiaq
Posts: 839 Likes: 2,133
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Post by stysiaq on Mar 6, 2017 9:47:12 GMT
why I missed the bait thread to rule all bait threads . Damn you, real life.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Mar 6, 2017 9:55:53 GMT
Good morning everyone, how many fictional genders have we discovered last night?
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Post by steamshipman on Mar 6, 2017 10:03:37 GMT
So are you going to go on a crusade to talk about how various movies, tv shows, and other video games having a mostly male cast is political? Oh god, it is like when somebody declared that "Where are black people in The Witcher 3? CDPR are racists wtf?!" My face is still aching from that facepalm. First, audience for video games was mostly male. I don't know for sure but think it still is. If the audience of some game supposed to be female, everyone would be perfectly ok with all-female cast. Second, video games are rarely not about violence and killing somebody. Throughout all human history killing was mostly men busywork. There were females and we remember them because they were exceptional, not because it was usual course of events. There was nothing political, just games evolved that way over the years. Motivation was "lets put this character here, it's gonna be interesting and entertaining" with optional "it will be strong narrative point". Now motivation is This is not recipe for coherent story, actually this is pandering crusade. And no, I'm not saying that good story can't/shouldn't have diversity. I somewhat agree with this opinion I couldn't really care, I just hope that there is isn't a "LOOK AT ALL THE WOMEN RUNNING STUFF" moment or dialogue. Its been a weird trend in Bioware games since I started playing them in 2007 or so. Being gay and having women in positions of power was just treated as normal, especially in Dragon Age. But in recent years through games and extended media, they've gone more meta with real world stuff and retconning it to be taboo or groundbreaking or whatever. I kinda liked the old way where it was just like "Yup, being gay in Thedas is totes normal and no one really cares", but then by DAI its a massive taboo thing. In early DA games it was the norm to have women at the head of a nation, and especially the chantry and all of its subdivisions. It was just how it was. But then in DAI I remember some dialogues specifically (maybe only 2 or 3) where it was like made a point to be like "WOMEN CAN RUN STUFF TOO" about Orlais/The Seekers. Yeah I know, I've played games in this universe for a decade, where it was established that people is just people and some people just happen to have different bits or like different bits.
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Post by amleth on Mar 6, 2017 10:12:03 GMT
Don't see a problem with it, I like a girl who knows how to take charge. Also, seriously? This game has so many real problems but instead you choose to bitch about this? -.- Citation needed! (Which problems do you see with this game so far? I only see some missed opportunities (armed Nomad (for vehicle combat!), orbital strikes (needs an armed Tempest!), close air support (needs: Armed Kodiak-Shuttle or some fighters!) and minor problems (almost all companions seem to favor close quarters combat and they don't have all that many abilities and you can't control their ability use, no tactical pause etc. etc.)...but nothing major so far!) greetings LAX Bad animations, subpar combat (see the 17 minute gameplay), idiotic ai (again see gameplay footage), potentially repetitive gameplay ala DA:I. Real systemic problems with the structure of the game that needs to be addressed. Having women in charge is not a problem at all
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Mar 6, 2017 10:21:11 GMT
So are you going to go on a crusade to talk about how various movies, tv shows, and other video games having a mostly male cast is political? Oh god, it is like when somebody declared that "Where are black people in The Witcher 3? CDPR are racists wtf?!" My face is still aching from that facepalm. First, audience for video games was mostly male. I don't know for sure but think it still is. If the audience of some game supposed to be female, everyone would be perfectly ok with all-female cast. Second, video games are rarely not about violence and killing somebody. Throughout all human history killing was mostly men busywork. There were females and we remember them because they were exceptional, not because it was usual course of events. There was nothing political, just games evolved that way over the years. Motivation was "lets put this character here, it's gonna be interesting and entertaining" with optional "it will be strong narrative point". Now motivation is This is not recipe for coherent story, actually this is pandering crusade. And no, I'm not saying that good story can't/shouldn't have diversity. I somewhat agree with this opinion I couldn't really care, I just hope that there is isn't a "LOOK AT ALL THE WOMEN RUNNING STUFF" moment or dialogue. Its been a weird trend in Bioware games since I started playing them in 2007 or so. Being gay and having women in positions of power was just treated as normal, especially in Dragon Age. But in recent years through games and extended media, they've gone more meta with real world stuff and retconning it to be taboo or groundbreaking or whatever. I kinda liked the old way where it was just like "Yup, being gay in Thedas is totes normal and no one really cares", but then by DAI its a massive taboo thing. In early DA games it was the norm to have women at the head of a nation, and especially the chantry and all of its subdivisions. It was just how it was. But then in DAI I remember some dialogues specifically (maybe only 2 or 3) where it was like made a point to be like "WOMEN CAN RUN STUFF TOO" about Orlais/The Seekers. Yeah I know, I've played games in this universe for a decade, where it was established that people is just people and some people just happen to have different bits or like different bits. The thing is you can't go "it's not political that there's a ton of male characters" then act like having lots of female characters is somehow political. Furthermore, it's hilarious how you're saying that having lots of male characters is just catering to a demographic as if... Bioware couldn't possibly want to cater to female players? I mean, come on, if you think you have one demographic in the bag (if we're going to assume that all loyal Bioware fans are men), then why not try to cater to another demographic that also happens to buy products? Again, my main point is, why should male players be the only kind of players you "pander" to, if it's all just pandering for the moneyz anyhow? A lot of women I know irl play video games and not just "Bejeweled Blitz" but COD, Witcher franchise, Bioware games, Resident Evil franchise, Final Fantasy franchise, etc. We have money, and just because we happen to be women doesn't make a lick of difference to the profits ending up in a game company's pockets. On top of that, you're essentially framing me as the "SJW whining about representation" when... this whole thread is about someone whining that there's not enough men.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by drrotinaj on Mar 6, 2017 10:42:30 GMT
Wow. How did this dumpster fire of a thread reach 15 pages?
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Post by steamshipman on Mar 6, 2017 11:34:01 GMT
Furthermore, it's hilarious how you're saying that having lots of male characters is just catering to a demographic as if... Bioware couldn't possibly want to cater to female players? I mean, come on, if you think you have one demographic in the bag (if we're going to assume that all loyal Bioware fans are men), then why not try to cater to another demographic that also happens to buy products? Again, my main point is, why should male players be the only kind of players you "pander" to, if it's all just pandering for the moneyz anyhow? A lot of women I know irl play video games and not just "Bejeweled Blitz" but COD, Witcher franchise, Bioware games, Resident Evil franchise, Final Fantasy franchise, etc. We have money, and just because we happen to be women doesn't make a lick of difference to the profits ending up in a game company's pockets. Wait, what? o_O I'm not saying that. I described how we come to the situation where I said that it was natural outcome in the circumstances. I just see that developers mostly didn't kept female playerbase in mind until, what, recent decade? There can't be anything possibly negative about having 'lots of female characters' as itself. What this thread has become about is that developers or publishers want to teach a political lesson but many do not like this because this is not what they want this game for and don't want to be preached. The 'too many female characters in leading roles' in the OP has almost nothing to do with what @tzeenchianapostrophe talked about. 'Too many female characters in leading roles' just can possibly be one minor indication of the problem and that's it. Like in quote from my previous post, if we had a woman in leading position, and it described in the lore as a perfectly normal for this society and then in third installment there is sudden talk about 'women can too', it looks stupid and this stupidity exists specifically because of implemented political message.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Mar 6, 2017 11:54:11 GMT
Furthermore, it's hilarious how you're saying that having lots of male characters is just catering to a demographic as if... Bioware couldn't possibly want to cater to female players? I mean, come on, if you think you have one demographic in the bag (if we're going to assume that all loyal Bioware fans are men), then why not try to cater to another demographic that also happens to buy products? Again, my main point is, why should male players be the only kind of players you "pander" to, if it's all just pandering for the moneyz anyhow? A lot of women I know irl play video games and not just "Bejeweled Blitz" but COD, Witcher franchise, Bioware games, Resident Evil franchise, Final Fantasy franchise, etc. We have money, and just because we happen to be women doesn't make a lick of difference to the profits ending up in a game company's pockets. Wait, what? o_O I'm not saying that. I described how we come to the situation where I said that it was natural outcome in the circumstances. I just see that developers mostly didn't kept female playerbase in mind until, what, recent decade? There can't be anything possibly negative about having 'lots of female characters' as itself. What this thread has become about is that developers or publishers want to teach a political lesson but many do not like this because this is not what they want this game for and don't want to be preached. The 'too many female characters in leading roles' in the OP has almost nothing to do with what @tzeenchianapostrophe talked about. 'Too many female characters in leading roles' just can possibly be one minor indication of the problem and that's it. Like in quote from my previous post, if we had a woman in leading position, and it described in the lore as a perfectly normal for this society and then in third installment there is sudden talk about 'women can too', it looks stupid and this stupidity exists specifically because of implemented political message. Except, no offense, there have been female gamers for years. As you said, they just haven't been keeping them in mind, and that's an issue. They were ignored, like how there's always been female movie-goers but the majority of movies that depicted women for years only showed female characters onscreen as love interests or mothers or other very limited archetypes. There's an issue with assuming that the status quo is fine because it caters to the majority, when that's not even always the case. There has always been an effort to suppress stories for groups that people think shouldn't be catered to. Think of it this way: musicals have been considered a "gay" thing for years with lots of people who consume or have a hand in creating musicals being LGBT, yet musicals with explicitly gay characters and content have been extremely rare until fairly recently. I have no issue with not liking the "woman can too" message in settings where it shouldn't be an issue one way or another, but to call having a lot of female characters in important roles to be that situation automatically is based on literally nothing. And I don't think there being a lot of female characters in leading roles is a symptom of any kind of problem, especially not whatever the hell you guys seem to be reading into the situation.
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Post by vonuber on Mar 6, 2017 12:22:11 GMT
Inb4 'but Lara Croft! Bayonetta!'.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Mar 6, 2017 12:59:08 GMT
Good morning everyone, how many fictional genders have we discovered last night? You just gave me a great idea for a startup:
It will be a glorious app called "Gender finder" (hmm... too generic?...), it will have daily updates from Tumblr on new genders as they appear!
Want to be fairy-fluid demi-attack-helicopter? We've got your back!
Use our new micro-transactions for an entirely new class of Schrödinger-genders! You can be two or more genders at the same time, and nobody will be able to find out which!
We could also make it into a physical fitness app - if the phone detects you're moving too fast, you lose your detection "powers" - so you have to walk to find your fellow attack helicopter - or walk to collect as many furries as you can in a single day.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 13,331 Likes: 30,906
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Mar 6, 2017 13:00:10 GMT
Wow. How did this dumpster fire of a thread reach 15 pages? The way any of them do - people are bored.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 6, 2017 13:12:50 GMT
Wow. How did this dumpster fire of a thread reach 15 pages? Well see, if someone thinks there are an unrealistic/non-representative amount of women in power in this game and states that it seems unrealistic or like a feminist agenda, and then other people state that they are fine with it and that sometimes it can be good to have more women in power for empowerment, or explain that there actually are a significant amount of men in positions of power in the AI so the point is moot, eventually if everyone yells enough "facts" at each other the other person is VERY VERY LIKELY to change their entire position on this debate. Because in situations like this, there is assuredly a right answer and it can't be just a matter of opinion, right? (i.e. see "Weapons on Tempest/Nomad thread)
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: pompomperol
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Post by urkibalurki on Mar 6, 2017 13:17:14 GMT
Wow. How did this dumpster fire of a thread reach 15 pages? I'm wondering too. People here have nothing better to do, obviously.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 6, 2017 16:09:26 GMT
Good morning everyone, how many fictional genders have we discovered last night? The Vissians have 3, Species 8472 has 5 and the J'naii are monogendered, but do have individuals who identify as male or female. Or were we not meant to answer this with random Star Trek trivia? You did ask for "fictional" genders, after all?
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Post by Cyonan on Mar 6, 2017 18:25:02 GMT
Except, no offense, there have been female gamers for years. As you said, they just haven't been keeping them in mind, and that's an issue. They were ignored, like how there's always been female movie-goers but the majority of movies that depicted women for years only showed female characters onscreen as love interests or mothers or other very limited archetypes. There's an issue with assuming that the status quo is fine because it caters to the majority, when that's not even always the case. There has always been an effort to suppress stories for groups that people think shouldn't be catered to. Think of it this way: musicals have been considered a "gay" thing for years with lots of people who consume or have a hand in creating musicals being LGBT, yet musicals with explicitly gay characters and content have been extremely rare until fairly recently. I have no issue with not liking the "woman can too" message in settings where it shouldn't be an issue one way or another, but to call having a lot of female characters in important roles to be that situation automatically is based on literally nothing. And I don't think there being a lot of female characters in leading roles is a symptom of any kind of problem, especially not whatever the hell you guys seem to be reading into the situation. Actually most of the best classic RPGs included the option to play a female character, and included female party members that weren't just love interests and had the same level of character depth as any of the male party members. I say "same level" because in Baldur's Gate 1 for example, none of the party members had a great deal of depth to them. It wasn't until BG2 that BioWare actually started putting in a lot of work into the characters. The big exception to this in the classics is Planescape Torment. RPGs to this day still give you that option in Pillars of Eternity, Dark Souls, the Shadowrun Returns games, Torment: Tides of Numenera, and Tyranny. The exceptions are Deus Ex where you're stuck as Adam Jensen, and The Witcher where you're stuck as Geralt outside of a very small portion where you play as Ciri. The main genre that has historically pretended like women don't exist is shooters. Even in recent years in big releases Overwatch and Titanfall are the only ones I can think of that let you play as a woman(and Titanfall in SP still makes you play as generic male protagonist #28923). I'm not going to deny that video games have been predominately viewed as a male thing in the past(primarily in games which do feature a fixed protagonist), but this idea that the majority of games are only showing women as love interests or in very limited roles isn't entirely accurate either.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Mar 6, 2017 18:25:39 GMT
Wow. How did this dumpster fire of a thread reach 15 pages? It's really not that bad, relatively. No one has even accused me of gender specific fascism yet.
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