ssanyesz
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Post by ssanyesz on Feb 26, 2017 21:04:12 GMT
This is what BioWare will be compared to in relation to their animation: This is the future of cinematic gaming, which BioWare is part of with both ME and DA. They'll (critics and general masses) only look at past tittles to compare any improvement made in ME:A. Does ME:A impress? Judging by the reaction we see every where but in the most fervent BioWare defender, no, it doesn't. I don't think the punch animation is bad, for ex, it doesn't matter that it won't connect because it'll happen so fast we won't be able to detect it unless we pause or play it in slow motion. The awkwardness of the other animations is inevitable, though. Take Peebee/Scott scene, it's awkward, it has obvious cuts as if the scene is composed of tiny movements fused together, but it doesn't flow organically as one, they are stiff. So, jump on him --> cut to his face, hello darkness my old friend -> cut to peebee, mem'd head tilt. Just my misinformed and illogical opinion. Is is a single character game with very limited RPG elements including a linear story and limited dialogue opportunities (Tomb Raider) really the best comparison to BioWare games? I will never understand why people compare it to Witcher either but I'm not going to tug that cord right now. Context is important when making comparisons, so yes it is illogical. Are people really serious about wanting high quality hair physics? Ignoring the fact that you cover your hair half the time, do you really think most players will be able to handle that when it's a fast-paced shooter RPG and you have 2 other companions? In any case there's at least some physics so there's a middle ground here. Don't compare it to Tomb Raider when it's a design choice with a vastly different opportunity cost. NPCs still has fixed faces just like in other games with cutscenes (Witcher, Tomb Raider or Metal Gear Solid, Uncharted, Last of Us), true, MEA has probably more of those, because of choice options and reactions, but i think most of them will be standing or sitting in fixed positions, or who knows, but still, maybe they're having an easier job this time around, because of mo-cap, instead of manually animate every movement that NPCs are making. But the protagonist's changing face is sure can be tricky, espacially for close interactions like romance. About hair physics: why not, BioWare is famous about their cinematic cutscenes and conversations, hair is part of it too, so do character animations to the smallest details like eye, eyelash, eyebrows, forehead, lip movent movent. They too are trying to make games as real as they can, same as other devs.
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Post by llandwynwyn on Feb 26, 2017 21:17:56 GMT
This is what BioWare will be compared to in relation to their animation:
This is the future of cinematic gaming, which BioWare is part of with both ME and DA. They'll (critics and general masses) only look at past tittles to compare any improvement made in ME:A.
Does ME:A impress? Judging by the reaction we see every where but in the most fervent BioWare defender, no, it doesn't.
I don't think the punch animation is bad, for ex, it doesn't matter that it won't connect because it'll happen so fast we won't be able to detect it unless we pause or play it in slow motion. The awkwardness of the other animations is inevitable, though. Take Peebee/Scott scene, it's awkward, it has obvious cuts as if the scene is composed of tiny movements fused together, but it doesn't flow organically as one, they are stiff. So, jump on him --> cut to his face, hello darkness my old friend -> cut to peebee, mem'd head tilt.
Just my misinformed and illogical opinion. Is is a single character game with very limited RPG elements including a linear story and limited dialogue opportunities (Tomb Raider) really the best comparison to BioWare games? I will never understand why people compare it to Witcher either but I'm not going to tug that cord right now. Context is important when making comparisons, so yes it is illogical. Are people really serious about wanting high quality hair physics? Ignoring the fact that you cover your hair half the time, do you really think most players will be able to handle that when it's a fast-paced shooter RPG and you have 2 other companions? In any case there's at least some physics so there's a middle ground here. Don't compare it to Tomb Raider when it's a design choice with a vastly different opportunity cost. Yes, it is because mocap is everywhere, and good animation is something the general public, not I, demands now from any cinematic game. BioWare can't hide from criticism, and fans wanting to give them a pass for every flaw, especially recurring, won't help them in the long run. They need to feel the pressure to improve, otherwise they'll stagnate more than they already are in terms of delivering something with quality. Also, this isn't DA. I'm more generous with the DA team because we all know is seen as the redheaded spawn for EA and it also has different races options for pc, which complicates things, plus it was their first take at the new engine. I said nothing about hair here, btw. While I think BioWare should improve their playmobil abomination, they can't afford to have TB hairs in their game, as in they have a chargen in ME/DA and plenty of npcs. Again, BW's hiding their head in the sand to what's going on in the industry only hurts them. 'Oh, but it's too hard for poor BW' isn't a good excuse to a company that wants to be seen as AAA.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 26, 2017 23:23:26 GMT
As someone mentioned, Geralt and Lara have fixed faces. This makes facial animations much more reliable to do properly. What looks good on one Geralt looks good on all Geralts, but what looks good on one Ryder may not look great on another. And nobody is saying it's too hard for BioWare. It's just not high up there in their priorities, just like Tomb Raider doesn't care for body customization and Witcher doesn't care about multiple characters. You just can't go around wanting top-notch quality in every aspect in the game like this and still expect it to ship in a reasonable time frame. Some things will be obviously better off than others. That's why you play different games to experience the best of what each has to offer, because nothing offers everything while doing it all well. Well.. at least nothing pre-modded
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Post by KR96 on Feb 26, 2017 23:56:08 GMT
I think it's hilarious that people are worried about animations. Have you ever played a Bioware game before? Of course Andromeda is going to be filled with awkward/bad animations. It's foolish to think otherwise IMO. Sorry, but I find this to be an unconvincing argument. Because Bioware's never been particularly good at a certain feature of a game, they automatically get a free pass for not doing it properly? That doesn't make any sense at all. It's like I can skip certain parts of an exam at university because hell, I never was too good at this particular part anyway. I know we have to be realistic, but the facial animations are being picked upon by about half the previews, so to just wave them off as being a minor issue seems a bit overly optimistic to me. Does anyone know if there was a similar uproar about DAI animations during the previews? Because whilst not perfect, they served their purpose well enough.
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Post by daniel on Feb 27, 2017 0:03:39 GMT
I don't really understand why everyone is critising this game based on something that was at least or probably worse in the previous installments? The animations were the worst part of the OT and it was the voice acting and writing that brought the games to life.
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Post by kingjuly on Feb 27, 2017 0:19:08 GMT
I don't really understand why everyone is critising this game based on something that was at least or probably worse in the previous installments? The animations were the worst part of the OT and it was the voice acting and writing that brought the games to life. Because people dont see the worth in steady improvement. If they dont see a 400% leap in every department, then that means Bioware is doing a shit job. Seriously, people need to chill. The only thing I expect from Bioware is steady improvement, and they've done that. Sub par facial animation wont detract from the experience for me. It didnt in past games, it wont in future games.
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Post by daniel on Feb 27, 2017 0:23:44 GMT
I think if Bioware wants to have some of the best faces and facial animations in the industry, they'd probably have to cut a lot of corners in terms of budget, when you consider how much cutscenes and dialogue is in the game. Cutting corners would probably mean cutting content. Add to that, you've got the Protagonist, who's face can be fully customized by the player. So there's definitely some real obstacles to get around. Given the circumstances, I'm not bothered at all by the faces. I do think people are exaggerating on how bad they are though. I mean the Sims 3 comparison was kinda harsh, they're not THAT bad. Also if an 8-bit game like Undertale can make me feel, then I can get over the average looking animations and faces. I think you hit the nail on the head there! People forget sometimes what an amount of work and money went into making this game. If they have to make every animation check out it would most likely take another 5 years for it to come out.
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Post by daniel on Feb 27, 2017 0:26:56 GMT
I don't really understand why everyone is critising this game based on something that was at least or probably worse in the previous installments? The animations were the worst part of the OT and it was the voice acting and writing that brought the games to life. Because people dont see the worth in steady improvement. If they dont see a 400% leap in every department, then that means Bioware is doing a shit job. Seriously, people need to chill. The only thing I expect from Bioware is steady improvement, and they've done that. Sub par facial animation wont detract from the experience for me. It didnt in past games, it wont in future games. Their entitled to there opinion of course but it seems like there determined to find just anything wrong with it.
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Post by KR96 on Feb 27, 2017 0:36:12 GMT
Because people dont see the worth in steady improvement. If they dont see a 400% leap in every department, then that means Bioware is doing a shit job. Seriously, people need to chill. The only thing I expect from Bioware is steady improvement, and they've done that. Sub par facial animation wont detract from the experience for me. It didnt in past games, it wont in future games. Their entitled to there opinion of course but it seems like there determined to find just anything wrong with it. I'm probably considered to be one of the biggest sceptics here regarding facial animations, but I'm honestly not actively looking for faults in this game. I was, and still am, hyped for this game and have high (possibly too high) expectations regarding the eventual outcome. I hear a lot that facial animations were poor throughout the OT. I was never too aware of the poor animations, save a couple of outliers, but with what I've seen so far poor animation seems to be the rule, rather than the occasional exception. For a game which focuses on storytelling and character development, two things I've always appreciated in Bioware games, having consistent poor facial animation can be immensely immersion breaking. This is what I'm so concerned about and is the main reason why I'm so vocal about this issue. Not because I want this game to fail, but because I do not want this game to fail. I want it to be great.
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Post by daniel on Feb 27, 2017 0:40:14 GMT
Their entitled to there opinion of course but it seems like there determined to find just anything wrong with it. I'm probably considered to be one of the biggest sceptics here regarding facial animations, but I'm honestly not actively looking for faults in this game. I was, and still am, hyped for this game and have high (possibly too high) expectations regarding the eventual outcome. I hear a lot that facial animations were poor throughout the OT. I was never too aware of the poor animations, save a couple of outliers, but with what I've seen so far poor animation seems to be the rule, rather than the occasional exception. For a game which focuses on storytelling and character development, two things I've always appreciated in Bioware games, having consistent poor facial animation can be immensely immersion breaking. This is what I'm so concerned about and is the main reason why I'm so vocal about this issue. Not because I want this game to fail, but because I do not want this game to fail. I want it to be great. I was in general referring to the reviewing critics, anyhow I wish you a happy play time and hope the game is to your liking
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 27, 2017 1:04:46 GMT
Sorry, but I find this to be an unconvincing argument. Because Bioware's never been particularly good at a certain feature of a game, they automatically get a free pass for not doing it properly? That doesn't make any sense at all. It's like I can skip certain parts of an exam at university because hell, I never was too good at this particular part anyway.No, it's more like if you study physics, you probably won't focus as much on chemistry. You expect an enormous action RPG with a customizable main character, a huge roster of companions and NPCs, elaborate narrative with a ginormous word count, detailed combat system with dozens of abilities, and exploration of many hand-crafted worlds to be at the absolute technical top as compared to the games that are nowhere near as ambitious in scope and depth. That's some quality perspective right there.
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Post by steamshipman on Feb 27, 2017 9:35:22 GMT
I made that point in another thread already but people here telling how all Bioware animations were not that good and now are better so I'll say it again. In DAO one episode with its animations made me LMAO. In Denerim was that side-quest you could take from quest board, where your task was to find corpses and ditch them into the well not far from local chantry. It was 'dirty buisness' quest as you help murderers to avoid prosecution for money (and exp). I did the quest while there was Wynne in my party. If you remember she had that piecefull look about her like the eyes that shine with kindness and virtue. So I gathered corpses and get to the well and here is that scene with my character playing 'bend to throw something big' animation and Wynne standing right behind and watching. Cut scene rules made her head and eyes to move following my character movements and it played as if Wynne with her moral high ground and shiny eyes is approvingly nods to my doings. Damn, it that was so wrong, it cracked me up. So Bad, It's Good situation. So yes, animations technical quality never was strong point in Bioware games. The problem why it's raises an uproar now is because with those graphics it becomes a very hard thing to do - to give bad animations a pass. Imagine Super Mario game with modern level realistic graphics. Namely monster jumping. With cartoony graphics it works but with realistic graphic those monsters can't just collapse into score numbers from simple jump - brain will recognize that this is not how realism works and label what happening as 'absurd'. Something along the lines happens now with MEA for some people. It's actually the reason why I preferred for my second playthrough not to go with default maleShep and make him Asian since Asians are generally much more restrained in their facial expression and it helped with almost permanent poker face. Looked more natural that way. In trailers we do not see pokerfaces at all, there is a lot of facial animations and if they are out of place it going to hit hard. In trilogy I could pretend that the character is just coolheaded and so everything is ok. What rational justification for inadequate expression I can use here? That after long criostasis they have neuromuscular disorders? Kinda lame, but if the game will be good I will have to live with that though
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2017 10:15:27 GMT
Their entitled to there opinion of course but it seems like there determined to find just anything wrong with it. I'm probably considered to be one of the biggest sceptics here regarding facial animations, but I'm honestly not actively looking for faults in this game. I was, and still am, hyped for this game and have high (possibly too high) expectations regarding the eventual outcome. I hear a lot that facial animations were poor throughout the OT. I was never too aware of the poor animations, save a couple of outliers, but with what I've seen so far poor animation seems to be the rule, rather than the occasional exception. For a game which focuses on storytelling and character development, two things I've always appreciated in Bioware games, having consistent poor facial animation can be immensely immersion breaking. This is what I'm so concerned about and is the main reason why I'm so vocal about this issue. Not because I want this game to fail, but because I do not want this game to fail. I want it to be great. I'm sure Bioware have probably heard all the complaints about the facial animations in the reviews. Heck, they were probably aware of what the reviewers were going to say the very day they played the game. I'm also sure they have also heard the level of concern coming from the fan base. It's a valid concern; and I'm sure they are probably trying to improve on them as much as they can prior to release. However, realistically, how much are they going to be able to improve on it in this game now in the time they have remaining towards release? Probably not a whole bunch. If they can't fix it and the rest of the game turns out to be great, then we'll all really just have to accept the animations for what they are this time around if we want to still buy the game... and hope that, for their next game, Bioware continues to improve on their techniques. Sure, we can continue to "encourage" them to improve in future games; but if we don't "give them that pass" and don't buy this game (which is always an option), Bioware just goes broke and doesn't make any more games... and we lose out entirely.
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Post by stysiaq on Feb 27, 2017 10:25:53 GMT
If animation fidelity is very important to you Bioware are not the ones. They are not the ones. hahaha, never saw that scene, it's like a bad puppet show
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Post by stysiaq on Feb 27, 2017 10:42:35 GMT
Also, as far as the whole animations thing... you're right to say that BioWare never broke new grounds there. They were at most a grade-B in this department. Thing is they usually elevated the experience with quality of story and dialogue. When ME released there was noone to compare it to. Now we have played TW3 which achieved everything we expected from a BioWare game sans a team of companions and elevated our expectations of character detail and emotional expression. But it wasn't only TW3. A number of titles started delivering deep characters with emotional stories attached (The Last of Us for example) which put BioWare into a tough spot where suddenly they are expected to deliver technology that was never their field of expertise (since it wasn't demanded), while they also stopped raising the bar when it comes to storytelling.
It would be wise of EA to put some resources and new talent into BioWare's pocket, because if the PeeBee introduction animation is anything to judge by, BioWare will be outgunned pretty heavily when their next title (after MEA) hits the shelves.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 27, 2017 10:45:09 GMT
I made that point in another thread already but people here telling how all Bioware animations were not that good and now are better so I'll say it again. In DAO one episode with its animations made me LMAO. In Denerim was that side-quest you could take from quest board, where your task was to find corpses and ditch them into the well not far from local chantry. It was 'dirty buisness' quest as you help murderers to avoid prosecution for money (and exp). I did the quest while there was Wynne in my party. If you remember she had that piecefull look about her like the eyes that shine with kindness and virtue. So I gathered corpses and get to the well and here is that scene with my character playing 'bend to throw something big' animation and Wynne standing right behind and watching. Cut scene rules made her head and eyes to move following my character movements and it played as if Wynne with her moral high ground and shiny eyes is approvingly nods to my doings. Damn, it that was so wrong, it cracked me up. So Bad, It's Good situation. So yes, animations technical quality never was strong point in Bioware games. The problem why it's raises an uproar now is because with those graphics it becomes a very hard thing to do - to give bad animations a pass. Imagine Super Mario game with modern level realistic graphics. Namely monster jumping. With cartoony graphics it works but with realistic graphic those monsters can't just collapse into score numbers from simple jump - brain will recognize that this is not how realism works and label what happening as 'absurd'. Something along the lines happens now with MEA for some people. It's actually the reason why I preferred for my second playthrough not to go with default maleShep and make him Asian since Asians are generally much more restrained in their facial expression and it helped with almost permanent poker face. Looked more natural that way. In trailers we do not see pokerfaces at all, there is a lot of facial animations and if they are out of place it going to hit hard. In trilogy I could pretend that the character is just coolheaded and so everything is ok. What rational justification for inadequate expression I can use here? That after long criostasis they have neuromuscular disorders? Kinda lame, but if the game will be good I will have to live with that though I don't even remember the animation occurring for me with that side quest. I just remember the corpses disappearing and a splashing sound when I dumped them in the well……which is really messed up the more I think about it lol. I like how I was doing this in broad daylight and walked by Templars and guards with no problem. I almost wish I could dump the bodies anywhere and freak people out.
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Post by ssanyesz on Feb 27, 2017 11:15:56 GMT
Now we have played TW3 which achieved everything we expected from a BioWare game sans a team of companions and elevated our expectations of character detail and emotional expression. But it wasn't only TW3. A number of titles started delivering deep characters with emotional stories attached (The Last of Us for example) which put BioWare into a tough spot where suddenly they are expected to deliver technology that was never their field of expertise (since it wasn't demanded), while they also stopped raising the bar when it comes to storytelling. The Witcher 3 is almost a 2 years old game, but The Last of Us is approaching to its anniversary too, which was 4 years old... so i think it is time for BioWare to catch up. But at least now they're too using mo-cap, so that is something. And from the trailers it seems it's looking quite good here and there, or rather there are parts which aren't so good, but hope they will improve upon it, i don't really mind if it is done with patches, as long as it is worked on.
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Post by steamshipman on Feb 27, 2017 16:25:26 GMT
I don't even remember the animation occurring for me with that side quest. I just remember the corpses disappearing and a splashing sound when I dumped them in the well……which is really messed up the more I think about it lol. I like how I was doing this in broad daylight and walked by Templars and guards with no problem. I almost wish I could dump the bodies anywhere and freak people out. Yes that spices up already awkward situation. I googled this moment, here is how it actually was:
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 27, 2017 16:40:45 GMT
I did not expect Alistair. 😂
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Post by malakizedek on Mar 4, 2017 2:51:52 GMT
Let's play a little game: Look into the mirror and say the line, "give him a chance". All done? Great. Now, at any point while you were speaking, did your mouth look like this? Attachment DeletedProbably not, because you were just speaking normally, not doing a baboon mating call, like Scott apparently is during this dialogue scene from the IGN video of the beginning of the game. Seriously, Bioware: lips DO NOT protrude 1-2" away from the mouth when talking normally. It looks freakish and bizarre. You guys can make all the excuses you want, but it's sloppy work. Attachment DeletedLook at that woman's profile. It looks like she's puckering up for a kiss, yeah? Wrong, she's just speaking normally. Have the Bioware devs ever had a face-to-face conversation with a human? How could the animators go home at the end of the day satisfied with what they did? Guess they didn't fix the facial animation bugs.
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Post by bryanky5 on Mar 4, 2017 3:00:02 GMT
I have a better game to play. It's called the waiting game. Let's wait for the game to be released.
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Post by SalMasRac on Mar 4, 2017 3:01:41 GMT
Let's play a little game: Look into the mirror and say the line, "give him a chance". All done? Great. Now, at any point while you were speaking, did your mouth look like this? Probably not, because you were just speaking normally, not doing a baboon mating call, like Scott apparently is during this dialogue scene from the IGN video of the beginning of the game. Seriously, Bioware: lips DO NOT protrude 1-2" away from the mouth when talking normally. It looks freakish and bizarre. You guys can make all the excuses you want, but it's sloppy work. Look at that woman's profile. It looks like she's puckering up for a kiss, yeah? Wrong, she's just speaking normally. Have the Bioware devs ever had a face-to-face conversation with a human? How could the animators go home at the end of the day satisfied with what they did? Guess they didn't fix the facial animation bugs. And here I thought this was starting out as a self-help thread. Was pleasantly surprised to see it was really about facial animations in MEA. 10/10
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snook
N3
oh god how did this get here
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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snook
oh god how did this get here
503
January 2017
snook
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by snook on Mar 4, 2017 3:08:50 GMT
Maybe I do talk like that.
You don't know my life.
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Sept 21, 2024 10:35:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 3:14:20 GMT
I was scared for a minute... But yes, the animations look silly as hell in some scenes.
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