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Post by vonuber on Mar 13, 2017 0:01:59 GMT
While I agree with this, people still get to say what we think about Bio's approach to the lore. Or Jackson's. I don't disagree; it is a place for discussion after all. However, Bioware is not exactly unique in it's lore inconsistency and yet its being treated like they've just murdered all the younglings after too many midichlorians, to use a pointed example.
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Post by boyaki on Mar 13, 2017 0:02:30 GMT
I never denied armor could help, or that in some condition it is mandatory. I'm not going to use Pee Bee around toxic material and I hope there is an explaination on why she can have her belly exposed in a icestorm. Once again technology can easily explain that, but if it is not mentionned then yes it would be stupid and illogical. But if i thought about it, i think than somewhere a guy in bioware already thought that.
I'm saying that pointing specificaly Pee Bee (while there are a ton of character like her in my quote that did not recieved such complain)to be a illogical design character for not wearing an armor is not a valid argument.
Pee Bee is no soldier, she is a scientist, a crazy annoying one, but a scientist. She does not wander with only cloth as people like to pretend. She has a shield, tech ability, powerful biotic ability and a gun to defend herself which is more than the common soldier have. Even her cloth as some small protection suited for movement (elbow, shoulder, knees) not much but the basic minimum for exploration we don't usually see with character like Miranda and Thane.
Once again I did not say that biotic user can't wear armor. I never said that and often insisted on that particular matter. However I did say that exhaustion is the limit to biotic ability and an armor can cause exhaustion and by extension limit the biotic abilities. That is why hybrid class use armor, because their combat style works that way. They don't need to be the best at biotic abilities but they need polyvalence. Adept class however does not wear armor (the only exception is Liara alternate mass effect 3 armor)because they need their biotic ability at their full potential.
Of course Pee Bee could use an armor, but she had a gun, a shield, biotic and tech abilities to defend herself. Moreover the few extract we had so far showed her as being very quick. An armor would upgrade her defense but limit her movement and biotic abilities. One could think that she does not seem to be an extreme potent biotic user and could use an armor and I would agree with that. But thinking it is the only logical solution is wrong.
Pee Bee is clearly no soldier, she is hardly a scientist. She is a daredevil and she is how to phrase it...independant...(a euphemism that means annoying). From a soldier perspective or a pragmatic one, yes she could really need an armor, but PeeBee clearly put a lot intention in her appearence. It is not the rule of cool, it is a character that wants to look cool, and that is why a lot of person don't like her. For me it is clear she follow her own looks, she wants to help the pathfinder but she does not want to be commit to a cause. I don't see her wanting to wear an armor or even seeing how she could benefit from it. You see the benefit and so do I, but from PeeBee the "rogue scholar" it is a logical design choice not have her wear an armor. We may not like the character, I surely do, but that does not mean I disaprove the design choice. I think her quick playstyle and her appearence fits how the character would fight and dress.
Once again it is not about micromanaging our companion but them taking their own decision, no matter if we agree with that decision. From what it seems, I am not Pee Bee superior, so I cannot give her orders. But if I thinks she is not suited for a mission because of the environment or her behavior I will not take her with me simply as that. On other occasion, like when my goal is to find a remnant vault I probably take her with me. If I want to attack an heavily guarded pirate camp, I will take professional soldiers. If I want to deal with Angaran, Jaal may be my man. And I think that is a better RPG thing than just mind-controling NPC to dress according to our desire, even if we think it is the most logic thing to do.
And no I don't think I troll or i am being irrational here.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Mar 13, 2017 0:05:24 GMT
I don't know. Wearing clothes on an adventure seemed to work for Indiana Jones! He fought Nazis and even encountered lava while in cargo pants and a leather jacket. I do agree that proper pressurized gear should be used in space/vacuum situations. This only work if I get to drink out of the Holy Grail. Secret ending of MEA. Archon guards a table of chalices. One red, one blue, one green.
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Post by hammerstorm on Mar 13, 2017 0:30:59 GMT
This only work if I get to drink out of the Holy Grail. Secret ending of MEA. Archon guards a table of chalices. One red, one blue, one green. If that's the case, I know that I shall not enter the forum (or the internet) at least for 10 year. And Red is always right
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Post by boyaki on Mar 13, 2017 0:31:46 GMT
And I have to disagree with the rule of cool being a bad thing.
My example to defend that case will be Indiana Jones. Indiana Jones is one of the coolest character in the world. He has some wit, a pistol, a whip a leather jacket and a hat. Many tries later to have a Indiana Jones character wannabe, but they were not cool why ?
Because Indiana Jones looks cool, behave cool, but has a lot of uncool flaws. He is ready to risk his life in order to save his hat out of vanity. His entire look is inspired by a child memory. His cool name was his dog's name. He has wit and charm but it is only a facade, mostly he fails and he is easily fooled. When confronted by his father the cool ultimate viril man turns into a child with daddy issues. The fact that he does look cool add to his character, not because he is inherently cool but because the character he build himself reflect his desire to be the "cool adventurer" add to his personality and it makes the character interesting and finally cool.
So yes a character looking cool is important but being cool is not enough. The rule of cool is something to look for in a fictional story, but if the character just look cool then he is not cool. I do think Pee Bee look cool, and that is a good thing. However her personality does not seem cool, but I don't see her cool look to be a problem.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Mar 13, 2017 0:34:59 GMT
Jesus.
First, we can't issue power commands to our teammates, effectively removing out ability to prime/detonate the combo that I THE PLAYER choose.
Now we can't choose their gun. What. The. Fuck?
...
No thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 0:54:55 GMT
You see the benefit and so do I, but from PeeBee the "rogue scholar" it is a logical design choice not have her wear an armor. We may not like the character, I surely do, but that does not mean I disaprove the design choice. I think her quick playstyle and her appearence fits how the character would fight and dress. What about her character (other than her outfit) screams, "lookee my tummy!" Does PeeBee possess some innate character trait that compels her to put her abdomen on display? Because that tummy cut-out appears to be the primary reason why her clothing doesn't cut it as protective gear. Players are given some number of potential squadmates to use on various missions as they see fit. There are a variety of reasons for squadmate selection, quite a few different criteria for those choices. Eliminating some of them simply because they refuse to wear proper protective gear is not something I want to have to consider. When the game provides characters for the PC to take into battle, those characters should be properly equipped, period.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Mar 13, 2017 1:06:07 GMT
I wouldn't try to explain / look for some logical explanation for lack of protective gear in hazardous environments. Bioware / other game devs have already demonstrated logic / practicability isn't vital. They're not foolish, they just want it that way. The only thing players can do is voice objections / criticisms and just march on. Whether it is heard.. *shrug* it depends on how deaf / stubborn they want to be.
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Post by projectpatdc on Mar 13, 2017 1:08:30 GMT
I'm sorry but the weapon excuse is just piss poor and lazy. I can understand limiting it to certain classes of weapons for each character, but not being able to collect, mod, and give our squad mates weapons just screams bro shooter and not RPG. Or sheer lazy streamlining. It's bad when MLB The Show has more customization options than a Bioware RPG Well, if you take a look at my sport example then it makes sense. Certain people like to use the same weapon every single time because they've grown use to the feeling of it. In soccer, players use the same cleats because it has a familiar feeling for them on their feet. Hockey players use the same sticks, hockey goalies use the same goalie pads, basketball players wear the same shoe brand during the season. It's all about familiarity. I'm not making excuses for the developers, I personally don't like being limited in what I can do in an RPG game especially since the older games allowed you to change squadmate weapons. However, I understand IF the reason they made this choice is because they felt it would be more realistic for the squadmate to use the same weapon out in the field. We don't know though, it could be laziness or whatever. I like the analogy for sure, but I just don't get why they would have such deep customization options for the weapons this time around when our squad is stuck using base level weapons
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Post by boyaki on Mar 13, 2017 1:15:46 GMT
You see the benefit and so do I, but from PeeBee the "rogue scholar" it is a logical design choice not have her wear an armor. We may not like the character, I surely do, but that does not mean I disaprove the design choice. I think her quick playstyle and her appearence fits how the character would fight and dress. What about her character (other than her outfit) screams, "lookee my tummy!" Does PeeBee possess some innate character trait that compels her to put her abdomen on display? Because that tummy cut-out appears to be the primary reason why her clothing doesn't cut it as protective gear. Players are given some number of potential squadmates to use on various missions as they see fit. There are a variety of reasons for squadmate selection, quite a few different criteria for those choices. Eliminating some of them simply because they refuse to wear proper protective gear is not something I want to have to consider. When the game provides characters for the PC to take into battle, those characters should be properly equipped, period. I do agree with you second point. I don't think PeeBee would be irrational about wearing a protective armor in a toxic environment, and it seems disappoiting to not take them on those places because there is only one skin of armor because a lack of ressource. When I took Liara on Palaven's moon or similar planet I would have her wear the armor skin because in that condition it made sense. But knowing that there is only one armor available I do not regret PeeBee wearing a jacket, because it reflects her style way more than a functional armor, when it would be the opposite with Cora and Drack. So Pee Bee not having another suit for mission requiring one is a shame, but I do agree with PeeBee current design because her choice of cloth fits her free and casual personna. It would have been way weirder to see her in complete armor all the time. The worst thing is I do not like her now because she is "too much". But the swift daredevil and casual scientist wearing a jacket does not put me off, that is basically Indiana Jones. I do think her suit fits her fighting style. If I want a soldier type fighting style, i will take a soldier. Her exposing the tummy is purely intentional. On the field it is not practical, but there is still logic behind it.
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Post by boyaki on Mar 13, 2017 1:32:38 GMT
Well, if you take a look at my sport example then it makes sense. Certain people like to use the same weapon every single time because they've grown use to the feeling of it. In soccer, players use the same cleats because it has a familiar feeling for them on their feet. Hockey players use the same sticks, hockey goalies use the same goalie pads, basketball players wear the same shoe brand during the season. It's all about familiarity. I'm not making excuses for the developers, I personally don't like being limited in what I can do in an RPG game especially since the older games allowed you to change squadmate weapons. However, I understand IF the reason they made this choice is because they felt it would be more realistic for the squadmate to use the same weapon out in the field. We don't know though, it could be laziness or whatever. I like the analogy for sure, but I just don't get why they would have such deep customization options for the weapons this time around when our squad is stuck using base level weapons As explained in the post you quote there are some logical reason behind it. In a tweet they admit that for weapon it was a choice but they wanted to have additional personnal armor. Customization option are good when they are meaningful. But squadmates having specific class customizing them would be reduce to giving them the obvious better armor. Soldier will have armor upgrading damage and Adept upgrading biotic duration or damage, there in not many possible combinaison. And getting a strictly better equipment is no fun, especially if it come with an ugly skin. Ryder having several possible class at once the specialization is meaningful in that case. Gun specialization was discutable, but it comes with AI problem, cinematic difficulties for character that hardly use them. Also micromanaging squadmates is not really fun. when I get a new powerful rifle I had to go through each companion and equip them with the right weapon and mods. Not the funniest part of an RPG.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2017 1:38:59 GMT
Considering all the new amazing things they managed to get into the game, not being able to choose or change out gear for squaddies is a minor disappointment.
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Post by Tittus on Mar 13, 2017 1:51:43 GMT
Does a RPG is defined by customising our teammate ? I mean Ryder has more customisation than ever... Squadmate are mostly meatbag in mass effect, they have only useful ability. In every run I did, i never saw a squadmate making a kill. They probably did some I miss, and help me making some. But in a fight I never saw a opponent i was not focusing dropping. In that regard does micromanaging our squadmate improve the gaming experience in anyway ? In DA squadmate are useful, and you choose their specialization, appropriate gear is logic. In mass effect they are neither useful Really? You need to play ME3 on Insanity using Garrus. Some brutes disintegrate before I ever do some proper demage. In the Citadel DLC, the first time that I tried the last fight, I couldn't finish without changing the difficulty, but the second time, Garrus made the bitch use her medi-gels in one minute. He wouldn't do that with a sniper rifle or a slow assault rifle.
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Post by spacev3gan on Mar 13, 2017 1:52:31 GMT
Well, this is pretty pathetic. They have already taken a similar approach with DA2 and seen how people are hostile towards having such an important RPG element taken away. Armor might not be a big deal. As usual they will release some Alternate Appearance Pack just to grab a few extra dollars - that should cover the not changing Armor issue. Now weapons, not being able to change them is really pathetic. Gladly I care more about the Multiplayer than the Singleplayer.
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 13, 2017 1:52:42 GMT
I like the analogy for sure, but I just don't get why they would have such deep customization options for the weapons this time around when our squad is stuck using base level weapons As explained in the post you quote there are some logical reason behind it. In a tweet they admit that for weapon it was a choice but they wanted to have additional personnal armor. Customization option are good when they are meaningful. But squadmates having specific class customizing them would be reduce to giving them the obvious better armor. Soldier will have armor upgrading damage and Adept upgrading biotic duration or damage, there in not many possible combinaison. And getting a strictly better equipment is no fun, especially if it come with an ugly skin. Ryder having several possible class at once the specialization is meaningful in that case. Gun specialization was discutable, but it comes with AI problem, cinematic difficulties for character that hardly use them. Also micromanaging squadmates is not really fun. when I get a new powerful rifle I had to go through each companion and equip them with the right weapon and mods. Not the funniest part of an RPG. Still, it's part of an actual, party based RPG... as it stands right now, squad mates are nothing more the glorified pets, and even those usually have more mechanics in other games. BW can phrase it however they like, fact is they just don't give a damn anymore. MEA is a solo 3rd person shooter with some shallow RPG mechanics and crafting, end of story.
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Post by Dark King on Mar 13, 2017 2:00:57 GMT
I get the people that are upset about not being able to customize squadmate's weapons and armor, but I don't get the people who say "why have so much customization for Ryder then?" . Ryder is the character we'll actually be playing as, the one who we'll be making decisions through, and interacting with other characters through. I think it would be pretty obvious why Ryder would have the most customization options even if the squadmates had weapon and armor customization options too. Plus different people will like different weapons, abilities, etc. Especially if they are making a character that's supposed to portray themselves in the game to some extent.
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Post by boyaki on Mar 13, 2017 2:07:14 GMT
I don't see how deciding how to dress your squadmates make them less of a "glorified pet" actually, seems to be quite the opposite. Also I don't see what part of the standard RPG the game lost. Is a RPG limited to equiping npc ? because many rpg does not do that. Saying it is just a shooter and not explaining why is not helping.
The core rule of an RPG is playing a character, getting immerse in that role (that basically in the name of the genre), and I don't see how does Mass Effect Andromeda does not follow that core rule. ME:A offer a character to build through dialogue, choice, gear, abilities and identity. ME:A offer a RPGesque setting ME:A offer liberty in term of exploration, relation and leveling ME:A is centered around a story Those are key rpg element that define the genre. I don't see how ME:A does not fit the RPG genre, but maybe i'm wrong and maybe a RPG is about playing dolls with squadmate. I mean what is more immersive in a role playing game than actually taking control of an other character than our own. That is usually what I do when I play RPG with friends.
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Post by warbaby2 on Mar 13, 2017 2:13:28 GMT
I don't see how deciding how to dress your squadmates make them less of a "glorified pet" actually, seems to be quite the opposite. Also I don't see what part of the standard RPG the game lost. Is a RPG limited to equiping npc ? because many rpg does not do that. Saying it is just a shooter and not explaining why is not helping. The core rule of an RPG is playing a character, getting immerse in that role (that basically in the name of the genre), and I don't see how does Mass Effect Andromeda does not follow that core rule. ME:A offer a character to build through dialogue, choice, gear, abilities and identity. ME:A offer a RPGesque setting ME:A offer liberty in term of exploration, relation and leveling ME:A is centered around a story Those are key rpg element that define the genre. I don't see how ME:A does not fit the RPG genre, but maybe i'm wrong and maybe a RPG is about playing dolls with squadmate. I mean what is more immersive in a role playing game than actually taking control of an other character than our own. That is usually what I do when I play RPG with friends. I was talking about the type of RPGs BW is/was proficient with in the past, though: Party based, tactical RPGs... that includes everything, from directing your party in battle to picking their gear for the occasion. The tactical aspect was pretty much taken out in earlier installments of ME, bit by bit, and now the party management goes too... what remains is a isngle protagonist RPG, like - say - the Witcher. Outside of non-combat interactions, party members are just another gun to point at the enemy.
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Post by pdusen on Mar 13, 2017 2:16:49 GMT
What I learned in this thread: a lot of people in this discussion have a completely different idea of what the important characteristics of an RPG are from what I do.
Guys, we can disagree, that's no reason to treat each other with disrespect.
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Post by boyaki on Mar 13, 2017 2:23:46 GMT
Mass effect was not a very good team based rpg neither a tactical one. The most intersting part was not having bot running at the enemy while you do all the kills, it was character development. The best moment in game was not killing bandit in space generic warehouse, it was going in the presidium with garrus. Companion mostly just did auto-attack, nothing fantastic about it.
Focusing the gameplay around the character was a wise choice. They did not change the original gameplay because it was too good. a game focused on shooting thing did the right thing using the shooter mechanic, these games are popular because they have good gameplay.
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Post by VanSinn on Mar 13, 2017 3:47:35 GMT
I'm definitely on the fence on this whole thing. IF it's about the npcs having their own character agency and choosing to wear what they want to wear AND it's implemented in a way that's not just obviously heavy-handed and forced, I'll grudgingly accept the developer's decision on this matter. If not, it'll definitely be points off from what I'm hoping will be a fairly awesome game.
The weapons, though, I have no issue with. The devs have confirmed that their weapons scale in damage based on a few factors, level and skills being among them, I believe, so they're not stuck with base-level weapons for the whole game. They just have the certain weapons that the devs have decided would be their personal weapons.
The weapon part is what makes me think the armor part is more about giving the NPC's a measure of character agency rather than being dress-up dolls for Ryder. Having PeeBee in that outfit in hostile environments with just a breather mask is stupid, but it's a stupid that's at least consistent with ME2 and ME3....so while it bugs me like crazy, it's not a deal breaker. I enjoyed ME2 and ME3 despite this design choice, and I can shrug it off again, as much as it...irks me.
I'm still in the camp of "wait and see how it all really works" before I go full ham on either venting displeasure or heaping praise. We'll see how it goes.
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Post by laughingbanana on Mar 13, 2017 4:30:37 GMT
I don't see how deciding how to dress your squadmates make them less of a "glorified pet" actually, seems to be quite the opposite. Also I don't see what part of the standard RPG the game lost. Is a RPG limited to equiping npc ? because many rpg does not do that. Saying it is just a shooter and not explaining why is not helping. The core rule of an RPG is playing a character, getting immerse in that role (that basically in the name of the genre), and I don't see how does Mass Effect Andromeda does not follow that core rule. ME:A offer a character to build through dialogue, choice, gear, abilities and identity. ME:A offer a RPGesque setting ME:A offer liberty in term of exploration, relation and leveling ME:A is centered around a story Those are key rpg element that define the genre. I don't see how ME:A does not fit the RPG genre, but maybe i'm wrong and maybe a RPG is about playing dolls with squadmate. I mean what is more immersive in a role playing game than actually taking control of an other character than our own. That is usually what I do when I play RPG with friends.I don't understand "it's either A OR B" approach like this. Like, why can't we demand more robust customization options for both Ryder AND the party? Especially since Bioware's last RPGs allowed you to do just that (DA:I and ME3), and it's fun to set up your party to your own liking, whether it's how they look, how they behave on battle, etc etc. I mean, why? Why would anyone be more accepting to Bioware stripping more choices instead of expanding or adding them? Especially with such a lengthy development time and it was something that they have done with their last games. I don't understand.
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Post by projectpatdc on Mar 13, 2017 5:01:19 GMT
I like the analogy for sure, but I just don't get why they would have such deep customization options for the weapons this time around when our squad is stuck using base level weapons As explained in the post you quote there are some logical reason behind it. In a tweet they admit that for weapon it was a choice but they wanted to have additional personnal armor. Customization option are good when they are meaningful. But squadmates having specific class customizing them would be reduce to giving them the obvious better armor. Soldier will have armor upgrading damage and Adept upgrading biotic duration or damage, there in not many possible combinaison. And getting a strictly better equipment is no fun, especially if it come with an ugly skin. Ryder having several possible class at once the specialization is meaningful in that case. Gun specialization was discutable, but it comes with AI problem, cinematic difficulties for character that hardly use them. Also micromanaging squadmates is not really fun. when I get a new powerful rifle I had to go through each companion and equip them with the right weapon and mods. Not the funniest part of an RPG. I'm a little lost in what you are trying to convey, and your argument does not have much weight. If you don't find the micromanaging or customization fun then don't play RPGs. It's comments like the one you made that lead developers to streamline systems so games are more accessible to everyone. I don't need to have fun 100% of the time playing an adult video game. I want that game to not hold my hand and give me more options to control. Strange how something like Zelda, BOTW adding in so many little options and it is the highest rated game of all time now.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 13, 2017 5:02:05 GMT
"Stripping more choices instead of expanding or adding them" isn't the best conceptual frame for this sort of design decision. In the end it's a question of how many resources they want to throw in this direction, versus throwing them in another direction; it's not like they had a working NPC gear system lying around and decided to cut it, after all, since the trilogy was on a different engine.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 13, 2017 5:08:09 GMT
I'm a little lost in what you are trying to convey, and your argument does not have much weight. If you don't find the micromanaging or customization fun then don't play RPGs. It's comments like the one you made that lead developers to streamline systems so games are more accessible to everyone. I don't need to have fun 100% of the time playing an adult video game. I want that game to not hold my hand and give me more options to control. What if someone likes some of the other traditional RPG features but doesn't like this one? I've thought for decades that CRPGs went wrong right at the beginning by drawing inspiration from D&D, rather than a better system. Loot treadmills aren't a necessary part of a PnP RPG, and most of the better systems aren't about gear. (Note that I'm not a fan of the ME:A design; so far it sounds incoherent, with Ryder's equipment loot-based while nobody else's is.)
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