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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 20:30:11 GMT
Mmhh... without trying to hijack the project for himself? Doesn’t seem Cerberus M.O. His sole Interest in such a project could hinge on a few things. A backup for Humanity in case his plan to control the reapers fail. Also to make sure Cora survives, if she is indeed his daughter. I don't feel we know enough about Alec and the Initiative to write this off as bad writing, yet! So far however it does a poor job of selling us on the concept. Well... up until now, from what I've seen the problems I have with the plot are all SAM related, especially because there are very little to none explanation on SAM existence. Not the how or the why: just it simple be there with you and in your brain. A fact that is never ever addressed or it is actively brushed off by other characters. Alec is cool though. |
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Post by Arcian on Mar 19, 2017 21:58:47 GMT
I've been waiting for the moment to use this:
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2017 22:04:24 GMT
I think you forgot to add that even then, EDI needed Reaper’s tech to become fully sentient (which all in itself explains why EDI could be so smart). I agree that this time Bioware writers overplayed their hand with SAM. EDI didn't need it to become fully sentient. Go back to ME1. There's a fully sentient AI on the Citadel that you have to kill. In Citadel DLC, there's a bit where you see some mechs that had gained sentience seeking representation from the Council (but gunned down by C-Sec). Or the geth, which led to the Morning War. Cerberus chose to use Reaper tech in EDI's creation but it was not necessary. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2017 22:12:42 GMT
I guess he did have Dragon Teeth via the indoctrinated geth from Mass Effect 1 At most I think TIM had only data on them before the trilogy: not hardware. Reaper tech was only available after Eden Prime in ME1, and even then it was very limited in scope and use. What did the trick imo was the Sovereign after ME1 and the dead reaper in ME2 (where we encounter Legion): Cerberus had weeks or maybe even months there to scrounge and ship away tech and materials. Cerberus had husks and dragon's teeth at their facilities in ME1. Of course TIM had Reaper tech prior to ME1. |
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 22:19:23 GMT
I think you forgot to add that even then, EDI needed Reaper’s tech to become fully sentient (which all in itself explains why EDI could be so smart). I agree that this time Bioware writers overplayed their hand with SAM. EDI didn't need it to become fully sentient. Go back to ME1. There's a fully sentient AI on the Citadel that you have to kill. In Citadel DLC, there's a bit where you see some mechs that had gained sentience seeking representation from the Council (but gunned down by C-Sec). Or the geth, which led to the Morning War. Cerberus chose to use Reaper tech in EDI's creation but it was not necessary. No she did and it was used to make her more intelligent than the run of mill AI. Back in ME1, she was a rogue VI on Luna, codename Hannibal. Cerberus intercepted her transmission when she tried to escape containment, reloaded her in an hybrid of reaper tech and blue box (and this we find out in ME3). And while blue boxes aren't needed to program AIs, the only artificial intelligences in universe who don't use them are Geth. It is stated in universe that the blue box are one of the few safety measures agains a repetition of the morning war. |
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 22:23:14 GMT
At most I think TIM had only data on them before the trilogy: not hardware. Reaper tech was only available after Eden Prime in ME1, and even then it was very limited in scope and use. What did the trick imo was the Sovereign after ME1 and the dead reaper in ME2 (where we encounter Legion): Cerberus had weeks or maybe even months there to scrounge and ship away tech and materials. Cerberus had husks and dragon's teeth at their facilities in ME1. Of course TIM had Reaper tech prior to ME1. I'm not so convinced sorry. They could have stolen them directly from Eden Prime for study or from the Alliance vaults: Cerberus in ME1 had spies everywhere, from the Binary Helix to Noveria. The only thing we know for sure is that TIM acquired a partial knowledge of the Reapers during the First Contact War: artefacts, as far as we know, come only with ME1. And even then, TIM would have helped Alec to develop SAMs AI, but not used them between ME2 and ME3? This seems a little farfetched. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2017 23:11:47 GMT
EDI didn't need it to become fully sentient. Go back to ME1. There's a fully sentient AI on the Citadel that you have to kill. In Citadel DLC, there's a bit where you see some mechs that had gained sentience seeking representation from the Council (but gunned down by C-Sec). Or the geth, which led to the Morning War. Cerberus chose to use Reaper tech in EDI's creation but it was not necessary. No she did and it was used to make her more intelligent than the run of mill AI. Back in ME1, she was a rogue VI on Luna, codename Hannibal. Cerberus intercepted her transmission when she tried to escape containment, reloaded her in an hybrid of reaper tech and blue box (and this we find out in ME3). And while blue boxes aren't needed to program AIs, the only artificial intelligences in universe who don't use them are Geth. It is stated in universe that the blue box are one of the few safety measures agains a repetition of the morning war. I didn't reference the rogue VI in saying that Reaper tech was required. I showed other instances. It can be done, it simply isn't. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2017 23:13:11 GMT
Cerberus had husks and dragon's teeth at their facilities in ME1. Of course TIM had Reaper tech prior to ME1. I'm not so convinced sorry. They could have stolen them directly from Eden Prime for study or from the Alliance vaults: Cerberus in ME1 had spies everywhere, from the Binary Helix to Noveria. The only thing we know for sure is that TIM acquired a partial knowledge of the Reapers during the First Contact War: artefacts, as far as we know, come only with ME1. And even then, TIM would have helped Alec to develop SAMs AI, but not used them between ME2 and ME3? This seems a little farfetched. I actually wasn't arguing as to whether or not Alec Ryder used Reaper tech. I was disagreeing on whether or not TIM could have had it and evidence suggests he did. |
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Post by projectpatdc on Mar 19, 2017 23:21:48 GMT
*** story spoiler *** The most incredible stupid aspect of the Early Access trial is the complete destruction of lore and disrespectful, random "leap forward" in technology by making SAM "the most advanced AI ever known, surpassing the essence of humanity" and SAM physiologically merging with Ryder.... and making him super-powered. No, I'm not making this up. That's actually what happens, and also how they describe it. EDI was a multinational, trillion-dollar project over the course of decades with several iterations in the military before becoming what she was under Cerberus. And even she didn't claim she was "far beyond what a human being was in essence." Basically, SAM is presented as being pretty much Reaper-grade AI. Are you kidding me? People cry about the dumb space magic evident in the synethesis ending. Heh... my god, this is like taking Synthesis and making it a gimmick years before the actual ending of ME3. I don't know how to describe to you just how shell-shocked I am at the stupidity of this writing decision. I knew they had to hand-wave the changing of profiles somehow. This is how they did that. By having this "superpowered physiological connection with SAM," the Pathfinder can change his profile at will and be an engineer or biotic or whatever. I just :| Really, though? *waving hand in front of Bioware's face* Why ;___; Just because of the situation with EDI doesn't mean someone else cannot surpass that development. Have you played the game all the way through and know that none of this explained? How can you judge something by watching the first few hours of the game when its evident that it's slow dripping information for a reason. The game's main theme is about discovery and exploration. There's an entirely separate plot line about the Ryder family mystery and why SAM exists. I like the enthusiasm since it means you care about the franchise but try to calm your tits until you've actually played the game. |
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Post by dazk on Mar 19, 2017 23:32:14 GMT
You're all talking like SAM couldn't have reaper technin him as well, why couldn't he? Because SAMs were completed before the Sovereign attack to the Citadel. And the Initiative departed a little after that. And even if SAMs have reapers' tech in them, it would beg the question where an N7 with no Council attachment and toxic even to the alliance brass obtained it. When did the Batarians discover the Leviathan of Dis? If early enough wouldn't that have enabled access to Reaper tech? |
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 23:37:52 GMT
Because SAMs were completed before the Sovereign attack to the Citadel. And the Initiative departed a little after that. And even if SAMs have reapers' tech in them, it would beg the question where an N7 with no Council attachment and toxic even to the alliance brass obtained it. When did the Batarians discover the Leviathan of Did? 2163. Still, why the Batarians, slavers extraordinaire, would have helped a human to complete high controversial AI research? An idealist human and a member of the Alliance to booth, who believe in the betterment of mankind through AI? And how Alec would have escaped indoctrination long enough to develop SAMs? And how would it have been possible to hide all of the above from the Shadow Broker/Collectors /Cerberus/ Alliance brass/Spectres? |
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Post by roseofquartz on Mar 19, 2017 23:45:42 GMT
I think you forgot to add that even then, EDI needed Reaper’s tech to become fully sentient (which all in itself explains why EDI could be so smart). I agree that this time Bioware writers overplayed their hand with SAM. EDI didn't need it to become fully sentient. Go back to ME1. There's a fully sentient AI on the Citadel that you have to kill. In Citadel DLC, there's a bit where you see some mechs that had gained sentience seeking representation from the Council (but gunned down by C-Sec). Or the geth, which led to the Morning War. Cerberus chose to use Reaper tech in EDI's creation but it was not necessary. Back to a point I made earlier. AI creation is not necessarily the issue (well, it is illegal in council and council species space), it is the issue of how competent/smart the AI is. VI's have also been shown to be able to be plugged into people's neural pathways, but mostly in the case of people with severe brain/cognitive problems, such as injury or illness. |
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 20, 2017 4:07:27 GMT
Chances are after Alec got dishonorably discharged Cerberus hit him up. Then TIM gives him access to Reaper resources for the betterment of humanity. Makes sense. Sure, if Mac Walters didn't mind dirtying his paws with enough prior-trilogy references to do something like this. Sure. I can say he doesn't mind making major implications to prior-trilogy. Even as this is a generally new story. |
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Post by Monica21 on Mar 20, 2017 4:30:24 GMT
If you are right, then I think that this initial... unfavorable response to ME:A, is merely the prelude, and might signal the end for the ME franchise. [/p][/quote] I just want to come to these forums and talk about a video game. So when I read hysterical responses like this, all I can think is that if it really is the end of ME, it will be the fault if its players. It's a game. Enjoy it for what it is. |
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Post by frebu on Mar 20, 2017 5:12:43 GMT
I don't know, it's not really any more far fetched to me than the whole ME2 Lazarus project, bringing Shepard back to life, etc. It felt very similair both in how it was presented, and how it happens very early in the game, and is there to explain a gameplay mechanic. Personally, I don't feel like they really need to justify a gameplay mechanic this way. But well, you're right that this heavily builds on the synthesis theme from the trilogy (certainly seems to be on the level of Reaper technology), and has huge implications. I hope it gets explored more deeply in the story over the course of the game...both the back story of how it was created and how it effects Ryder. I mean, the protagonist is literally possessed by/merged with an AI. It could potentially be really great, or it could be treated as a cheap gameplay gimmick, if it's just ignored. Is AI going to continue to be a major theme in ME:A, like it was in the trilogy? Well I allowed Lazarus Project because the original trilogy didn't make medical science a large part of its arc. We knew humans could live to 150 so obviously medical science has advanced greatly. Allowing one special trillion-credit project to rehabilitate a clincally dead person didn't seem lore-breaking. Because they never admitted it was impossible previously. AI, however, was explored at length. From its reverence of the complexity of reaper AI, to the novelty of EDI. He fell through the atmosphere of a planet outside a ship. There would have been nothing left of Shepherd and the whole fucking thing was just so they could release a cool "oh shepherd died guys for realziez" trailer so don't act like that wasn't just bullshit. If you can sit there and pretend that Shepherd going from beyond dead(how long was his corpse on that planet) with no memory loss or skill loss then you can't really bitch about them taking AI in a new direction(especially because they only did it because EDI and Legion were such popular characters and they needed to have a reason to include a new AI) |
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Post by Pokemario on Mar 20, 2017 8:15:39 GMT
If they can bring back the dead, I have no trouble believing this. It's taking the story to new and interesting levels IMO.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 20, 2017 8:32:36 GMT
If you are right, then I think that this initial... unfavorable response to ME:A, is merely the prelude, and might signal the end for the ME franchise. [/p][/quote] I just want to come to these forums and talk about a video game. So when I read hysterical responses like this, all I can think is that if it really is the end of ME, it will be the fault if its players. It's a game. Enjoy it for what it is.[/quote] Considering the lengths some people achieve to white knighting ME:A, I think that, at least for diversity sake, stonewalling such posts is just plain wrong. Don’t misunderstand me: I’ve already downloaded ME:A, and I’m gonna play it. Even if it is just to form an opinion based on direct experience. But at the same time, I’ve to keep pointing out narrative dissonances wherever I see them: I can get much satisfaction, nor escapism, from a story that is mildly incoherent with itself and the established lore. Forcing myself to enjoy something I know to be wrong, makes me only feel dumb. Doubly so when ME:T was able to greatly enrich my view on games and sci fi. It makes me sad. |
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Post by Monica21 on Mar 20, 2017 10:43:23 GMT
I just want to come to these forums and talk about a video game. So when I read hysterical responses like this, all I can think is that if it really is the end of ME, it will be the fault if its players. It's a game. Enjoy it for what it is. You are mistaking my pessimism for glee.
I'm not happy that ME:A seems to be of a lower quality than most people assumed, I'm merely pointing out that if it is as bad as some claim, there might be consequences.
First, thank you for cleaning up my quote. Replying on mobile is messy. Second,I think any assumptions about the game are far too premature. I'm certainly suspicious of SAM's motives, but I'm not going to rely on a secondhand opinion of a game that was streamed by another party. I get that people are still mad about the ending of ME3, but this isn't that. I read an article that said that the first few hours of Andromeda were,"Well, not good." I was worried until I actually played the trial, and my fears were unfounded. I'm more worried about it being like Inquisition than caring about what SAM is. He'll be what he is and that will affect the Pathfinder, and that's all I care to guess at. It certainly won't affect my enjoyment of the game. I'm just pointing out that someone else's claim is not always reality, and getting worked up over someone else watching a stream sounds like looking for reasons to pre-hate the game. |
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Post by NRieh on Mar 20, 2017 11:40:43 GMT
First , I need to say that I had only played up to Eos (and not aware of any possible spoilers that may come later).
Still, it would be wrong to say that AIs had never been worked upon. Actually, 'Revelation' directly say that humans had been studying the AI without Council's permission. The whole Sidonis project was about AI, and that's ~20 years before ME1. Long term if you ask me.
I'm not saying that I love SAM - I find him annoying as hell. And Alec being the genious AND the N7 is a stress-test for my suspention of disbilief.
Which is the worst, SAM\'Alec's' speeches about 'symbiosis' and 'strenghts of both [humans and machines] & weekness of none'? Sounds terribly familiar, doesn't it? The whole fucking idea & implementation sreams 'reapertech' (if not 'indoctrination', lol). I hope I'm wrong on this one, and SAM's just an awkward plot\game-mechanical device.
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Post by Monica21 on Mar 20, 2017 14:22:10 GMT
First , I need to say that I had only played up to Eos (and not aware of any possible spoilers that may come later). Still, it would be wrong to say that AIs had never been worked upon. Actually, 'Revelation' directly say that humans had been studying the AI without Council's permission. The whole Sidonis project was about AI, and that's ~20 years before ME1. Long term if you ask me. I'm not saying that I love SAM - I find him annoying as hell. And Alec being the genious AND the N7 is a stress-test for my suspention of disbilief. Which is the worst, SAM\'Alec's' speeches about 'symbiosis' and ' strenghts of both [humans and machines] & weekness of none'? Sounds terribly familiar, doesn't it? The whole fucking idea & implementation sreams 'reapertech' (if not 'indoctrination', lol). I hope I'm wrong on this one, and SAM's just an awkward plot\game-mechanical device. I'm super suspicious of SAM and his motivations but yeah, it's not like there isn't precedent for this. Cerberus had Project Overlord, and who's to say they didn't have a similar project(s) elsewhere in case of failure? It wouldn't even have to be Cerberus, just an organization with the resources to work on AI. |
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 20, 2017 19:39:36 GMT
Alec doesn't need to be Cerberus.
He and his wife, however, can be useful tools, even ones retroactively written to inspire TIM on his radicalism. For all I/we know.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Mar 21, 2017 2:14:48 GMT
And here I thought the silliest part of the story was the Geth 'telescope' that somehow used mass effect fields in the Milky way to accelerate photons from Andromeda so that they arrived instantly rather than the normal 2.5 million years it should have taken.
Or whatever the thing was supposed to have done.
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