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Post by Catilina on Aug 19, 2016 19:22:04 GMT
Her moniker is "Madame de Fer", the Lady of Iron, so It's all about politics and business, so when you learn she later will fight those who resist in violent ways, she's want to gain power, and as you said she fear her own magic, so power is all about fear & control. Those who don't want to go her ways, are facing her wrath, to remain in power. So you are free under her rules, but she kept the whole power. Are we talking about real freedom? I think she could do great things thereafter, but I prefer other options, and as I said, temporary solutions are needed to avoid violence. That's what I focus on. Yes, it's true. But she don't just fear her own magic and self control, but fear from other mages' power and self control. It's not make her a good leader. She not only know the danger, she fear from her fellow mages. The fear are not too good advisor. Sometimes can help, but much more times gives bad ideas. She seems absolute bigot in the mage's issue, and absolute believe the Chantry propaganda. And she like the power too much. I can't trust the person, who so much like the politican game. That person maybe good in the game, but not necessarily good if s/he enjoy it too much: it's could like a drug. So, I think Vivienne in the Divine position mean too much risk. Not to mention it, that she fear so much from herself, that he feel necessary to ask others (Templars) for protect her from herself. Then she think: she is a potencially abomination. I don't see other reason why her so much devotee of the Circle system. I don't trust a politician, who guided by the fear. (Okay, may I don't trust in anyone except myself...)
(I have a world with Cassy, and now I want Leliana)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2016 19:25:35 GMT
Canon Quizzie refused to make Cassie his divine, and he didn't trust Vivienne to run it, so he gave the job of divine to Leliana. It worked out for everyone.
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Post by Drainful on Aug 19, 2016 19:31:15 GMT
I can't say who the "best" Divine is since ultimately they're all going to forced down one path with a few of their own quirks to make things convenient for Bioware. Trespasser has already begun with that. If Bioware decides that the Divines changed too much, they're all going to be assassinated and rolled back. Or the veil is coming down and everyone is going to be a super mage.
I chose Vivienne, though. Vivienne has a very clear understanding of the power imbalance mages and mundanes would have if mages were completely autonomous and actively tries to find balance. Normally I'd find a reign as a mage Divine ridiculous like softened Leliana's hippie ending where suddenly no one cares if mages are free or not, but the revolts, her actions aligning with what Thedas wants, and the additional "all true power lies with her" and not with the mages under her makes up for it. Metagaming wise, if the College of Enchanters must exist, I'd prefer it be as weak as possible and less of an "uneasy coexistence" that happens with Cassandra and Leliana.
But MOSTLY I love her look as Divine. A shame Bioware preferred using the convenient traditional Divine clothes in Trespasser over making Divine Vivienne's supreme balla clothes into a model.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 19, 2016 19:42:58 GMT
I couldn't take Vivienne being made Divine seriously. The suggestion that after some 800 years of mage oppression and not allowing them positions of power, they would give it to Vivienne just because she is good at playing the Game is nonsensical. It goes against everything the Chantry have taught about magic. As Dorian says, it is like Tevinter without the blood magic. Well if Inquisitor was a mage and everyone believed she was the Herald of Andraste, then I don't think it's so unbelievable that they would accept a mage as the Divine.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 19, 2016 19:44:29 GMT
I can't say who the "best" Divine is since ultimately they're all going to forced down one path with a few of their own quirks to make things convenient for Bioware. Trespasser has already begun with that. If Bioware decides that the Divines changed too much, they're all going to be assassinated and rolled back. Or the veil is coming down and everyone is going to be a super mage. I chose Vivienne, though. Vivienne has a very clear understanding of the power imbalance mages and mundanes would have if mages were completely autonomous and actively tries to find balance. Normally I'd find a reign as a mage Divine ridiculous like softened Leliana's hippie ending where suddenly no one cares if mages are free or not, but the revolts, her actions aligning with what Thedas wants, and the additional "all true power lies with her" and not with the mages under her makes up for it. Metagaming wise, if the College of Enchanters must exist, I'd prefer it be as weak as possible and less of an "uneasy coexistence" that happens with Cassandra and Leliana. But MOSTLY I love her look as Divine. A shame Bioware preferred using the convenient traditional Divine clothes in Trespasser over making Divine Vivienne's supreme balla clothes into a model. She just fear, not understanding anything. And she likes so much the politics and the Circle, and Templars. (Who care about a cleric's wear? But I think that seems good enough. What's the problem with the convinent and the traditional Divine clothes?)
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Post by Drainful on Aug 19, 2016 19:51:58 GMT
I can't say who the "best" Divine is since ultimately they're all going to forced down one path with a few of their own quirks to make things convenient for Bioware. Trespasser has already begun with that. If Bioware decides that the Divines changed too much, they're all going to be assassinated and rolled back. Or the veil is coming down and everyone is going to be a super mage. I chose Vivienne, though. Vivienne has a very clear understanding of the power imbalance mages and mundanes would have if mages were completely autonomous and actively tries to find balance. Normally I'd find a reign as a mage Divine ridiculous like softened Leliana's hippie ending where suddenly no one cares if mages are free or not, but the revolts, her actions aligning with what Thedas wants, and the additional "all true power lies with her" and not with the mages under her makes up for it. Metagaming wise, if the College of Enchanters must exist, I'd prefer it be as weak as possible and less of an "uneasy coexistence" that happens with Cassandra and Leliana. But MOSTLY I love her look as Divine. A shame Bioware preferred using the convenient traditional Divine clothes in Trespasser over making Divine Vivienne's supreme balla clothes into a model. She just fear, not understanding anything. And she likes so much the politics and the Circle, and Templars. (Who care about a cleric's wear? But I think that seems good enough. What's the problem with the convinent and the traditional Divine clothes?) Of course it's partially fear. She understands that controlling minds, blowing people up at will, forcing people into a waking nightmare, and possession are all things to fear. And that fear and separation is always going to be there, mage autonomy or not. They're disgusting. As Dorian said, a Chantry monstrosity. Vivienne's black/gold/white robes >>>>>>> what Justinia and Beatrix were wearing.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 19, 2016 19:59:01 GMT
She just fear, not understanding anything. And she likes so much the politics and the Circle, and Templars. (Who care about a cleric's wear? But I think that seems good enough. What's the problem with the convinent and the traditional Divine clothes?) Of course it's partially fear. She understands that controlling minds, blowing people up at will, forcing people into a waking nightmare, and possession are all things to fear. And that fear and separation is always going to be there, mage autonomy or not. They're disgusting. As Dorian said, a Chantry monstrosity. Vivienne's black/gold/white robes >>>>>>> what Justinia and Beatrix were wearing. As I wrote: the fear is a bad advisor. (The Chantry is not a fashion show. Dorian too much care about fashion, which is quite annoying.)
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Post by Drainful on Aug 19, 2016 20:08:03 GMT
Of course it's partially fear. She understands that controlling minds, blowing people up at will, forcing people into a waking nightmare, and possession are all things to fear. And that fear and separation is always going to be there, mage autonomy or not. They're disgusting. As Dorian said, a Chantry monstrosity. Vivienne's black/gold/white robes >>>>>>> what Justinia and Beatrix were wearing. As I wrote: the fear is a bad advisor. (The Chantry is not a fashion show. Dorian too much care about fashion, which is quite annoying.) There's this one gossip banter in Val Royeaux about Vivienne becoming Divine that was like, " Think of the wondrous hats!". I was sold then and there. I fully support the Chantry becoming a fashion show under Divine Vivienne. I hope she transforms the Grand Cathedral into a giant runway.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 19, 2016 20:10:33 GMT
A giant runway built on a foundation of mage skulls.
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Post by Drainful on Aug 19, 2016 20:15:08 GMT
A giant runway built on a foundation of mage skulls. Oh thank the Maker. Finally, a use for Fiona's skull.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 19, 2016 20:53:20 GMT
A giant runway built on a foundation of mage skulls. Oh thank the Maker. Finally, a use for Fiona's skull. oh well played.
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Post by Reznore on Aug 20, 2016 2:55:52 GMT
I prefer Cass , she seems the most stable.Leliana is scary and Vivienne is a control freak.
Cass might not be the best when it comes to politics , but I'd rather not have the Chantry too involved in politics.Because when it gets involved , this institution favors Orlais anyway.(Ferelden, and Kirwall are an example of that) Last Divine who tried to play the Game manage to fuel fire to the mage/templar war. Besides Cassandra is the only divine who is interested in the templars , the seekers , the mages , the faith in itself , the faithful at large, and getting rid of all the Orlesians shenanigans.Remember when what was left of the Chantry holed up in Val Royeaux and were busy backstabbing each others and not doing anything while waiting for a new Divine? Good times.
Leliana is more interested in reforming the Chantry when it comes to the preachy things to turn in into the religion of Luv.And during less dire times I wouldn't mind , but that doesn't solve the issue of mages, you just have the Chantry washing its hands of magical shenanigans.And she gets rid of a specialised army who could be useful for an Exalted March again the Qun. She's leaving several power vaccuum after a period of chaos.Preaching tolerance and fluffy feelings won't help much.
Vivienne favors the mages and offers them opportunity to move up the ladder , but templars are back at being leashed , Seekers she doesn't care , politics we already know who she's siding with , and she's not about to give up jewelry and palaces to feed the poor.And she won't make any change about the faith in itself because she doesn't care all that much.
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Post by patches on Aug 20, 2016 8:35:05 GMT
I still say Giselle.
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Post by jtav on Aug 20, 2016 15:33:33 GMT
Cassandra because the Divine is first and foremost a religious figure. It is not a vehicle for someone to push their pet agenda through. The political can be taught, but deep orthodox faith and a willingness to admit error can't.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Aug 20, 2016 16:13:20 GMT
Clearly Leliana is the best choice
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Post by vilio1 on Aug 20, 2016 16:29:59 GMT
For me, it's Leli > Cass > Viv.
I agree with all of Leliana's views throughout the playthrough. She wants the Chantry's focus to be more on charity and inclusiveness. The College is a good place for mages to get training so that pretty much confirms that mage freedom is working. She manages to remove the discriminatory practices in the priesthood (this would have the great benefit of encouraging humans to be less racist against elves, who would likely be less inclined to help out Solas or the Qunari). And I don't even understand why there is a tradition of celibacy in the Chantry.
I don't see any downsides.
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Post by jtav on Aug 20, 2016 16:33:06 GMT
Leliana as Divine irritates me for meta reasons. There's so much Catholic imagery in the Chantry that her portrayal makes me want to remind the writers that religions have certain doctrines for reasons other than "that's the way it's always been done" and doctrine isn't infinitely malleable. She should've been Thedas' Luther, not Divine.
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Post by Kantr on Aug 20, 2016 17:03:22 GMT
I prefer Cass , she seems the most stable.Leliana is scary and Vivienne is a control freak. Cass might not be the best when it comes to politics , but I'd rather not have the Chantry too involved in politics.Because when it gets involved , this institution favors Orlais anyway.(Ferelden, and Kirwall are an example of that) Last Divine who tried to play the Game manage to fuel fire to the mage/templar war. Besides Cassandra is the only divine who is interested in the templars , the seekers , the mages , the faith in itself , the faithful at large, and getting rid of all the Orlesians shenanigans.Remember when what was left of the Chantry holed up in Val Royeaux and were busy backstabbing each others and not doing anything while waiting for a new Divine? Good times. Leliana is more interested in reforming the Chantry when it comes to the preachy things to turn in into the religion of Luv.And during less dire times I wouldn't mind , but that doesn't solve the issue of mages, you just have the Chantry washing its hands of magical shenanigans.And she gets rid of a specialised army who could be useful for an Exalted March again the Qun. She's leaving several power vaccuum after a period of chaos.Preaching tolerance and fluffy feelings won't help much. Vivienne favors the mages and offers them opportunity to move up the ladder , but templars are back at being leashed , Seekers she doesn't care , politics we already know who she's siding with , and she's not about to give up jewelry and palaces to feed the poor.And she won't make any change about the faith in itself because she doesn't care all that much. The Qunari have gunpowder and canons though. So a bunch of Templars who's only skill is to hunt down an unarmed person and neutralise their magic is not going to do well against a Qunari. You need soldiers from countries that actually practise warfare (Ferelden) Leliana is the only one who has experience with the chantry and the softened version is a good reformer.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 20, 2016 17:29:49 GMT
I always figured that though a softened Leliana is less stabby stabby, she's still a spymaster so it'd make sense if instead of assassinations, she just blackmails her opponents. Kinda like what the Inquisitor can do at the Winter Palace when eavesdropping and gathering dirty laundry on the nobles.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2016 22:45:59 GMT
So I have a problem, maybe you guys can help. I don't know what to do... I'm playing a mage who believes in the Circles. She wants to prove to Thedas that not all mages are apostates and is trying to make up for the anarchy Hawke and Anders brought on to Kirkwall (my Hawke was a very rebellious mage). Mages should be educated and kept safe from the public's fears, in Circles, but should have far more freedoms than they used to have. She voted no in the war, dislikes Fiona for the anarchy she helped create, and conscripted the mages as she doesn't trust them not to make more stupid decisions. She's basically Wynne tbh. She's educated, nerdy, very kind, a bit boring perhaps and in love with Cullen. With all that the choice should be simple, Vivienne, they get on really well. But here's the rub, my mage hates the Chantry. So I was going to go with Viv then changed my mind to a softened Leliana but I've just done the maths and there's no way I can get Lel, Viv is going to win. Does that fit? Or should I go back and re-do 40 hours to get Leliana? Do I need to rethink it all or is Viv a good choice for this IQ? Help.
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Post by jtav on Aug 20, 2016 23:37:55 GMT
I think you should let the math fall where it may. You're not picking the Divine; you're indirectly shaping the mindset of those who do. Also Vivienne is probably the least devout choice.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 20, 2016 23:54:39 GMT
So I have a problem, maybe you guys can help. I don't know what to do... I'm playing a mage who believes in the Circles. She wants to prove to Thedas that not all mages are apostates and is trying to make up for the anarchy Hawke and Anders brought on to Kirkwall (my Hawke was a very rebellious mage). Mages should be educated and kept safe from the public's fears, in Circles, but should have far more freedoms than they used to have. She voted no in the war, dislikes Fiona for the anarchy she helped create, and conscripted the mages as she doesn't trust them not to make more stupid decisions. She's basically Wynne tbh. She's educated, nerdy, very kind, a bit boring perhaps and in love with Cullen. With all that the choice should be simple, Vivienne, they get on really well. But here's the rub, my mage hates the Chantry. So I was going to go with Viv then changed my mind to a softened Leliana but I've just done the maths and there's no way I can get Lel, Viv is going to win. Does that fit? Or should I go back and re-do 40 hours to get Leliana? Do I need to rethink it all or is Viv a good choice for this IQ? Help. I never played this way, hard question. If Vivienne become Divine, probably she want to dominate the Circles. The Circles maybe get more freedom, but it will the Chantry's freedom, Vivienne's freedom. If you trust in Vivienne as person, then maybe she is a good choice. What your Inquisitor hates in the Chantry? The religion? She don't believe in Andraste/the Maker? The Chantry's politics? Or? I think, Cassandra and Leliana are devoted, I dont know Vivienne, I think she likes Andraste, but probably more likes the power. If your Inquisitor not religious, then one point to Vivienne. However, I do not understand. The Circles was never independent from the Chantry. The Templars are Chantry's army. How you want Circles with Templars, without Chantry? Or Circles, without Templars and Chantry, as school and library? How seems that "far more freedom"? The mages can have privacy, marriage, family for example? Or this is too big risk? (Wynne is good person, I like her, but maybe not the best example... don't forget her child, the Chantry take away from her – and Wynne still believe the Circle-system. I think this is a big fat Stockholm-syndrome.) Against the people's wrath you can protect mages with the eliminate of the fear. This is the Chantry's responsibility, but Vivienne afraid, she not able to calm the people. (By the way: close the mages to protect them? Interesting viewpoint. The anarchy can only be eliminated by closing a group of [innocent] people?)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 10:03:07 GMT
I think you should let the math fall where it may. You're not picking the Divine; you're indirectly shaping the mindset of those who do. Also Vivienne is probably the least devout choice. Maybe you're right, thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2016 10:07:39 GMT
I never played this way, hard question. If Vivienne become Divine, probably she want to dominate the Circles. The Circles maybe get more freedom, but it will the Chantry's freedom, Vivienne's freedom. If you trust in Vivienne as person, then maybe she is a good choice. What your Inquisitor hates in the Chantry? The religion? She don't believe in Andraste/the Maker? The Chantry's politics? Or? I think, Cassandra and Leliana are devoted, I dont know Vivienne, I think she likes Andraste, but probably more likes the power. If your Inquisitor not religious, then one point to Vivienne. However, I do not understand. The Circles was never independent from the Chantry. The Templars are Chantry's army. How you want Circles with Templars, without Chantry? Or Circles, without Templars and Chantry, as school and library? How seems that "far more freedom"? The mages can have privacy, marriage, family for example? Or this is too big risk? (Wynne is good person, I like her, but maybe not the best example... don't forget her child, the Chantry take away from her – and Wynne still believe the Circle-system. I think this is a big fat Stockholm-syndrome.) Against the people's wrath you can protect mages with the eliminate of the fear. This is the Chantry's responsibility, but Vivienne afraid, she not able to calm the people. (By the way: close the mages to protect them? Interesting viewpoint. The anarchy can only be eliminated by closing a group of [innocent] people?) That's the trouble, she'll do things with the Chantry instead of without it. Yep she's an atheist and hates the way the Chantry has dominated mages. She doesn't want anything to do with them. She wants the Circles back but as an independant organisation away from all religious zealots and doctrines. That's how she saw it. First the mages voted for freedom, which she disagreed with as it caused anarchy. Many innocent mages were murdered by rogue templars and frightened townspeople after that, all of which could've been avoided if the vote had gone the other way. Then the leaders of the mages signed themselves up to be Tevinter slaves. My IQ believes that the mages will have more protection under the Inquisition than being allowed to do more harm to their own cause.
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Post by Toyish Batphone on Aug 21, 2016 10:47:24 GMT
Leliana is the best choice for Divine.
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