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Post by toomanyclouds on Apr 1, 2017 23:42:45 GMT
I think the frustration about the lack of M/M squadmate romances doesn't just come from the lack of romance-specific content. Their romances feel more developed because you just learn so much more about a squadmate, especially in this game where they all have elaborate, multi-subquest loyalty missions. I've completed most quests other than the collectathons where you couldn't get quest markers and I've put about 90 hours into this game. For most of it, I've dragged around Vetra and Jaal, Vetra because I like her and Jaal because he's just the most logical choice. He knows most about Heleus, he has arguably the biggest stakes in what you're doing (your species still exist if the Kett wipe the colonists out, even if the Pathfinder doesn't know it, the angara will just be gone), and he can give explanations and comment on things you see on former angara worlds. I'd guess I've spent about 50 hours with these two pixel people, if not more, and they are the ones who have quest banter while you run around, who are at your side for the biggest twists, who throw in comments during quest conversations, who sometimes have whole special reactions during missions (especially Jaal), and who scream in panic when you barrel towards that giant ravine. This is why I prefer squad/follower romances over non-squad/follower romances just in general. In addition to all of that extra content (banter, quest remarks), the feeling of spending so much time with your LI just really adds to the romance. You feel like you get to know them as people outside of what limited cutscenes can show. I even felt that way with the DAI advisor vs follower romances, even though the actual romance content is the same. Definitely! Combat is also a big thing I forgot to mention. Sure, especially in a game were you have so little control about the characters, combat is more likely to make you hate them sometimes, but it's still time spent "with" them. They compliment your headshots, they pick fights with every Fiend minding his own business in a 100 metre radius, and so on. One of my most memorable moments in this playthrough was Jaal going full YOLO and Avenger Striking right into three Anointed and somehow surviving that maneuvre. Drack once saved me from a Wraith and a very annoying game-over during a priority mission with a well-placed melee attack. When I think of Peebee, I think first of her callout "Gravity going away in three, two, one..." That was just a way of announcing her combo power that seemed very in-character. That's also something you only experience with squadmates.
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Post by Avejajed on Apr 2, 2017 2:22:32 GMT
I think that Biowares sexuality content is based on 2 things: money and what EA will allow.
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Post by toomanyclouds on Apr 2, 2017 6:07:26 GMT
I think that Biowares sexuality content is based on 2 things: money and what EA will allow. I'd be interested to know that if EA is the big inhibitor here - which is indeed a possibility -, why the Dragon Age studio has such freedom in developing their characters' sexualities. I mean, Iron Bull was a pansexual half-giant who makes the player character his submissive, that's probably more controversial than a gaylien interested in men. Could it be because Mass Effect is at least partially a shooter and shooters are often considered a genre that is more traditionally geared towards men and supposed to cater to a specific power fantasy that is also usually considered a male one? Not that that should forbid M/M romances, but we all know that in reality, homosexuality is often wrongly combined by certain people with ideas of weakness and being effeminate. Additionally, if the stereotypical shooter audience is your prime demographic, you are more likely to get people who are outraged at the very idea that their character could be homosexual. I still remember the absolute breakdowns some male gamers had over Anders flirting with them like, once. Meanwhile, I've yet to hear of a female gamer who had an issue with Liara being obviously and blatantly in love with you for the whole of the original trilogy (other than that they may have felt annoyed the writing was trying to push them into a certain direction). Also, FRyder sleeping with a sexy blue chick is totally hot brah, so that's not such a problem to include. IDK, to be honest, it was just one of the ideas I had because other than their combat genre, ME and DA are really not all that fundamentally different, so I never know why one studio can do it but the other can't.
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Post by Avejajed on Apr 2, 2017 6:16:19 GMT
I think that Biowares sexuality content is based on 2 things: money and what EA will allow. I'd be interested to know that if EA is the big inhibitor here - which is indeed a possibility -, why the Dragon Age studio has such freedom in developing their characters' sexualities. I mean, Iron Bull was a pansexual half-giant who makes the player character his submissive, that's probably more controversial than a gaylien interested in men. Could it be because Mass Effect is at least partially a shooter and shooters are often considered a genre that is more traditionally geared towards men and supposed to cater to a specific power fantasy that is also usually considered a male one? Not that that really should forbid M/M romances, but we all know that in reality, homosexuality is often wrongly combined with ideas of weakness. Additionally, if the stereotypical shooter audience is your prime demographic, you are more likely to get people who are outraged at the very idea that their character could be homosexual. I still remember the absolute breakdowns some male gamers had over Anders flirting with them like, once. Meanwhile, I've yet to hear of a female gamer who had an issue with Liara being obviously and blatantly in love with you for the whole of the original trilogy (other than that they may have felt annoyed the writing was trying to push them into a certain direction). Also, FRyder sleeping with a sexy blue chick is totally hot brah, so that's not such a problem to include. IDK, to be honest, it was just one of the ideas I had because other than their combat genre, ME and DA are really not all that fundamentally different, so I never know why one studio can do it but the other can't. I think you're right on the nose about ME being considered more of a fps (even though it's not, obviously) than a rpg, at least in terms of business models and who the client is that buys these games. (Straight white men). Im a female, and I never played a Mass Effect game before Andromeda because I typically do not like shooters. They remind me too much of my husbands endless (and mindless) cod marathons. I truly do think Mass Effect has a different buying clientele than Dragon Age. It's hard for us to see that from here because we're all fans and most of us are fans or both and since we're big enough fans to be on a forum dedicated to said games, but a small enough subset, we can see how diverse we really are, whereas I'm not sure the people who buy Mass Effect are as diverse a group (big picture) as the sample size here may make it look. Also none of what I just said may make any sense. Every time I doze off another kid wakes up. 😴
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Post by miso9 on Apr 2, 2017 12:54:44 GMT
In addition to really small amount of options for gay men, it's been confirmed that the only lesbian character in the whole game, Suvi, was never designed to be lesbian. Prima Guide's walkthrough of her romance shows screenshots of her with male Ryder (pic below with obvious minor spoiler about how her final romantic interaction looks like). Those guides are written some time ahead based on earlier builds, so it confirms that Suvi was meant to be another romance option of male Ryder and Bioware didn't plan to have ANY lesbian character in entire game. It seems that at the last minute someone decided to lock her just for women but it doesn't fix this issue. I always wondered why Liam, Cora and Gil are open about their sexuality - you get to know right away that they like men/women - while the only supposedly lesbian character never gives any hints at all that she likes women, even when a man hits on her. Now I know why - because she was never written to be a lesbian, but as just another conquest for Scott Ryder.
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Post by RussianGuyovich1313 on Apr 2, 2017 17:25:20 GMT
In addition to really small amount of options for gay men, it's been confirmed that the only lesbian character in the whole game, Suvi, was never designed to be lesbian. Prima Guide's walkthrough of her romance shows screenshots of her with male Ryder (pic below with obvious minor spoiler about how her final romantic interaction looks like). Those guides are written some time ahead based on earlier builds, so it confirms that Suvi was meant to be another romance option of male Ryder and Bioware didn't plan to have ANY lesbian character in entire game. It seems that at the last minute someone decided to lock her just for women but it doesn't fix this issue. I always wondered why Liam, Cora and Gil are open about their sexuality - you get to know right away that they like men/women - while the only supposedly lesbian character never gives any hints at all that she likes women, even when a man hits on her. Now I know why - because she was never written to be a lesbian, but as just another conquest for Scott Ryder. I'd rather characters stay consistent with whom they were written as, instead of being switched to bi/les at the last moment like Vetra did, cause now Male Ryder's passionate love scene with his boney muffin has been cut cuz FemRyder obviously couldn't quite compare by the sounds of that sweet 85
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Post by RussianGuyovich1313 on Apr 2, 2017 17:27:30 GMT
I think that Biowares sexuality content is based on 2 things: money and what EA will allow. I'd be interested to know that if EA is the big inhibitor here - which is indeed a possibility -, why the Dragon Age studio has such freedom in developing their characters' sexualities. I mean, Iron Bull was a pansexual half-giant who makes the player character his submissive, that's probably more controversial than a gaylien interested in men. Could it be because Mass Effect is at least partially a shooter and shooters are often considered a genre that is more traditionally geared towards men and supposed to cater to a specific power fantasy that is also usually considered a male one? Not that that should forbid M/M romances, but we all know that in reality, homosexuality is often wrongly combined by certain people with ideas of weakness and being effeminate. Additionally, if the stereotypical shooter audience is your prime demographic, you are more likely to get people who are outraged at the very idea that their character could be homosexual. I still remember the absolute breakdowns some male gamers had over Anders flirting with them like, once. Meanwhile, I've yet to hear of a female gamer who had an issue with Liara being obviously and blatantly in love with you for the whole of the original trilogy (other than that they may have felt annoyed the writing was trying to push them into a certain direction). Also, FRyder sleeping with a sexy blue chick is totally hot brah, so that's not such a problem to include. IDK, to be honest, it was just one of the ideas I had because other than their combat genre, ME and DA are really not all that fundamentally different, so I never know why one studio can do it but the other can't. I'm pretty sure they went with bull cuz he was voiced by freddy prince jr. and was human-like, bioware doesnt like alien bois kissing human bois it seems
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 2, 2017 19:39:20 GMT
From what I recall in the time leading up to release of DAI, the opposite happened with Bull compared to what happened with Jarl. Essentially Bull was going to be race gated because of the number of different animations that were going to be needed for a romance with all races, but then they put in the extra resources to allow it to happen. However, the dialogue remained pretty much the same no matter what the race or gender involved.
By contrast, it would appear they originally intended for Jarl to be available to both genders but then ran out of time/resources to animate it and program the variable dialogue, etc, that would be needed, so went with just female.
That still doesn't explain why they didn't have any gay squad member though.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 2, 2017 20:34:40 GMT
From what I recall in the time leading up to release of DAI, the opposite happened with Bull compared to what happened with Jarl. Essentially Bull was going to be race gated because of the number of different animations that were going to be needed for a romance with all races, but then they put in the extra resources to allow it to happen. However, the dialogue remained pretty much the same no matter what the race or gender involved.
By contrast, it would appear they originally intended for Jarl to be available to both genders but then ran out of time/resources to animate it and program the variable dialogue, etc, that would be needed, so went with just female.
That still doesn't explain why they didn't have any gay squad member though. "Jaal." Me: OMG You can romance Jarl Balgruuf in Skyrim!??! I'm pretty sure they went with bull cuz he was voiced by freddy prince jr. and was human-like, bioware doesnt like alien bois kissing human bois it seems Except that the qunari as a race is the most "alien" race that Dragon Age has, so this doesn't really hold up. He's not "human-like" just because he's a smart ass. It is as Gervaise states above. Bull was race gated, due to animations, but then the extra effort was made to have him be for all races. And of course Zevran is also not race gated. Not counting DA2 elves, as human is the only race for the PC. The only non-human male that is race gated is Solas.
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Post by RussianGuyovich1313 on Apr 2, 2017 21:45:16 GMT
From what I recall in the time leading up to release of DAI, the opposite happened with Bull compared to what happened with Jarl. Essentially Bull was going to be race gated because of the number of different animations that were going to be needed for a romance with all races, but then they put in the extra resources to allow it to happen. However, the dialogue remained pretty much the same no matter what the race or gender involved.
By contrast, it would appear they originally intended for Jarl to be available to both genders but then ran out of time/resources to animate it and program the variable dialogue, etc, that would be needed, so went with just female.
That still doesn't explain why they didn't have any gay squad member though. "Jaal." Me: OMG You can romance Jarl Balgruuf in Skyrim!??! I'm pretty sure they went with bull cuz he was voiced by freddy prince jr. and was human-like, bioware doesnt like alien bois kissing human bois it seems Except that the qunari as a race is the most "alien" race that Dragon Age has, so this doesn't really hold up. He's not "human-like" just because he's a smart ass. It is as Gervaise states above. Bull was race gated, due to animations, but then the extra effort was made to have him be for all races. And of course Zevran is also not race gated. Not counting DA2 elves, as human is the only race for the PC. The only non-human male that is race gated is Solas. Bull still has human-like face and talks like a human would.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 2, 2017 23:25:56 GMT
^ I disagree about his face. He looks like a qunari, just as the qunari Inquistor does, and the other qunari NPCs we've seen. My point still stands that the qunari are the most "alien" race that Dragon Age has, what with the horns and all. It's not an accurate comparison to ME's aliens. But there is no point arguing about it, as I suspect we will never agree, so we'll just have to leave it at that.
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Post by rafflesz on Apr 2, 2017 23:51:33 GMT
In addition to really small amount of options for gay men, it's been confirmed that the only lesbian character in the whole game, Suvi, was never designed to be lesbian. Prima Guide's walkthrough of her romance shows screenshots of her with male Ryder (pic below with obvious minor spoiler about how her final romantic interaction looks like). Those guides are written some time ahead based on earlier builds, so it confirms that Suvi was meant to be another romance option of male Ryder and Bioware didn't plan to have ANY lesbian character in entire game. It seems that at the last minute someone decided to lock her just for women but it doesn't fix this issue. I always wondered why Liam, Cora and Gil are open about their sexuality - you get to know right away that they like men/women - while the only supposedly lesbian character never gives any hints at all that she likes women, even when a man hits on her. Now I know why - because she was never written to be a lesbian, but as just another conquest for Scott Ryder. Another piece of evidence for the pile that the only reason there is even gay options in this game at all, is because Bioware would have been exposed af for pandering if there had been nothing... Who wants to bet money that come Tuesday we wont even get a PR response for completely failing their gay fan base.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 3:41:16 GMT
In addition to really small amount of options for gay men, it's been confirmed that the only lesbian character in the whole game, Suvi, was never designed to be lesbian. Prima Guide's walkthrough of her romance shows screenshots of her with male Ryder (pic below with obvious minor spoiler about how her final romantic interaction looks like). Those guides are written some time ahead based on earlier builds, so it confirms that Suvi was meant to be another romance option of male Ryder and Bioware didn't plan to have ANY lesbian character in entire game. It seems that at the last minute someone decided to lock her just for women but it doesn't fix this issue. I always wondered why Liam, Cora and Gil are open about their sexuality - you get to know right away that they like men/women - while the only supposedly lesbian character never gives any hints at all that she likes women, even when a man hits on her. Now I know why - because she was never written to be a lesbian, but as just another conquest for Scott Ryder. Another piece of evidence for the pile that the only reason there is even gay options in this game at all, is because Bioware would have been exposed af for pandering if there had been nothing... Who wants to bet money that come Tuesday we wont even get a PR response for completely failing their gay fan base. TBH there is a MASSIVE amount of flack about the facial animations/bugs compared to gay content in the game. That will be priority one.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 3, 2017 4:18:15 GMT
On the case of Iron Bull, what we were told on the old BSN was that one dev actually used his own extra time to make Iron Bull ungated. So, the DA team didn't really actively decide to do it, just the one guy was a hero. lol I want to say it was John Epler that did this, but I'm not sure now.
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Post by rafflesz on Apr 3, 2017 4:18:56 GMT
Another piece of evidence for the pile that the only reason there is even gay options in this game at all, is because Bioware would have been exposed af for pandering if there had been nothing... Who wants to bet money that come Tuesday we wont even get a PR response for completely failing their gay fan base. TBH there is a MASSIVE amount of flack about the facial animations/bugs compared to gay content in the game. That will be priority one. Indeed it will be. And the concerns and disappointments in this thread will not even be any priority not 2nd or 200th... I have no doubt in my mind they will not address this at all, ever. No way a team that produced this content because it was either do or die is gonna turn around and actually be inclusive and equal. As has been said and as has been seen this is not the DA team. This is Bioware "dudebro" montreal.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Apr 3, 2017 4:22:30 GMT
Another piece of evidence for the pile that the only reason there is even gay options in this game at all, is because Bioware would have been exposed af for pandering if there had been nothing... Who wants to bet money that come Tuesday we wont even get a PR response for completely failing their gay fan base. TBH there is a MASSIVE amount of flack about the facial animations/bugs compared to gay content in the game. That will be priority one. Agree, but I hope they give us something, I don't mind wait for months, but I want just a definitive answer of what their plans are
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Post by Steelcan on Apr 3, 2017 4:25:11 GMT
What could they even do at this point? Recording additional lines for gay romances is far beyond what a patch can entail
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 4:25:27 GMT
TBH there is a MASSIVE amount of flack about the facial animations/bugs compared to gay content in the game. That will be priority one. Indeed it will be. And the concerns and disappointments in this thread will not even be any priority not 2nd or 200th... I have no doubt in my mind they will not not address this at all, ever. No way a team that produced this content because it was either do or die is gonna turn around and actually be inclusive and equal. As has been said and as has been seen this is not the DA team. This is Bioware "dudebro' montreal. I think for all parties moving forward this may be an important thing to keep in mind.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 4:28:05 GMT
I do empathize though. If the situation was reversed and the straight content got this treatment I'd be up in arms as well.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 3, 2017 4:36:41 GMT
What could they even do at this point? Recording additional lines for gay romances is far beyond what a patch can entail Feature Reyes/Gil in DLC a bit. Maybe do a DLC based heavily around Kadara with Reyes as a temp squaddie just for that DLC. Besides that, do better next time. I doubt they'll do anything free for Andromeda's main plot and I doubt they'd do a DLC just for gay stuff. The realistic expectation is just hoping for a moderate amount more content in DLCs and a better distribution in the next game.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Apr 3, 2017 4:38:52 GMT
I do empathize though. If the situation was reversed and the straight content got this treatment I'd be up in arms as well. You are one cute hedgehog
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 5:06:29 GMT
I do empathize though. If the situation was reversed and the straight content got this treatment I'd be up in arms as well. You are one cute hedgehog Thanks haha.
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Post by Panda on Apr 3, 2017 5:12:32 GMT
In addition to really small amount of options for gay men, it's been confirmed that the only lesbian character in the whole game, Suvi, was never designed to be lesbian. Prima Guide's walkthrough of her romance shows screenshots of her with male Ryder (pic below with obvious minor spoiler about how her final romantic interaction looks like). Those guides are written some time ahead based on earlier builds, so it confirms that Suvi was meant to be another romance option of male Ryder and Bioware didn't plan to have ANY lesbian character in entire game. It seems that at the last minute someone decided to lock her just for women but it doesn't fix this issue. I always wondered why Liam, Cora and Gil are open about their sexuality - you get to know right away that they like men/women - while the only supposedly lesbian character never gives any hints at all that she likes women, even when a man hits on her. Now I know why - because she was never written to be a lesbian, but as just another conquest for Scott Ryder. I'd rather characters stay consistent with whom they were written as, instead of being switched to bi/les at the last moment like Vetra did, cause now Male Ryder's passionate love scene with his boney muffin has been cut cuz FemRyder obviously couldn't quite compare by the sounds of that sweet 85 There is quite big problems on how Bioware approaches writing LI's. They want to write them character first, which is nice as thought, but they somehow ended up with all these straight characters with only Peebee as expection due to being Asari. If they made sure everyone was writing squadmates with different sexualities this wouldn't have happened. So after they write them all straight they have to figure out what they could do with romances. They likely added some minor characters like likely Gil and make them m/m romance since that is missing completely, but they are still missing a lot of m/m and f/f romances due to how they approached characters and LI's. So they start changing character's sexualities (which is fine since characters do get changed a lot before they are finalized)- but in the process they end up having bisexuals that only mention opposite sex and badly animated m/m and f/f scenes since they thought those scenes originally for straight romances not both straight and gay- and then they might have to cut some content already done since they figured out their problem of lacking m/m and f/f romances too late. Now some of this is just my theory on what happened with romances, but it's based on what devs have said like Ian about how they write characters first and think of romances after that.
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Post by rafflesz on Apr 3, 2017 5:28:31 GMT
I'd rather characters stay consistent with whom they were written as, instead of being switched to bi/les at the last moment like Vetra did, cause now Male Ryder's passionate love scene with his boney muffin has been cut cuz FemRyder obviously couldn't quite compare by the sounds of that sweet 85 There is quite big problems on how Bioware approaches writing LI's. They want to write them character first, which is nice as thought, but they somehow ended up with all these straight characters with only Peebee as expection due to being Asari. If they made sure everyone was writing squadmates with different sexualities this wouldn't have happened. So after they write them all straight they have to figure out what they could do with romances. They likely added some minor characters like likely Gil and make them m/m romance since that is missing completely, but they are still missing a lot of m/m and f/f romances due to how they approached characters and LI's. So they start changing character's sexualities (which is fine since characters do get changed a lot before they are finalized)- but in the process they end up having bisexuals that only mention opposite sex and badly animated m/m and f/f scenes since they thought those scenes originally for straight romances not both straight and gay- and then they might have to cut some content already done since they figured out their problem of lacking m/m and f/f romances too late. Now some of this is just my theory on what happened with romances, but it's based on what devs have said like Ian about how they write characters first and think of romances after that. lol that sounds like what this team would do. 'ey everyone, all the characters are straight because it makes sense for their straight characters!' #biowaredudebromontreal
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 5:44:51 GMT
There is quite big problems on how Bioware approaches writing LI's. They want to write them character first, which is nice as thought, but they somehow ended up with all these straight characters with only Peebee as expection due to being Asari. If they made sure everyone was writing squadmates with different sexualities this wouldn't have happened. So after they write them all straight they have to figure out what they could do with romances. They likely added some minor characters like likely Gil and make them m/m romance since that is missing completely, but they are still missing a lot of m/m and f/f romances due to how they approached characters and LI's. So they start changing character's sexualities (which is fine since characters do get changed a lot before they are finalized)- but in the process they end up having bisexuals that only mention opposite sex and badly animated m/m and f/f scenes since they thought those scenes originally for straight romances not both straight and gay- and then they might have to cut some content already done since they figured out their problem of lacking m/m and f/f romances too late. Now some of this is just my theory on what happened with romances, but it's based on what devs have said like Ian about how they write characters first and think of romances after that. lol that sounds like what this team would do. 'ey everyone, all the characters are straight because it makes sense for their straight characters!' #biowaredudebromontreal Well I mean everyone knows only straight males play video games *not being serious but people probably believe this*
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