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Post by linksocarina on Sept 8, 2016 14:21:30 GMT
I think you underestimate that, honestly. All the time I hear people discuss the contextual meaning of these labels. A lot of points come up, and it's far from a spur of the moment, knee jerk reaction in most cases. People can be dumb as a group at times, but you hear a lot of insight if you listen closely. If Action-RPG means something different from Action, then the RPG adds some meaning. What meaning is that? What makes any given Action-RPG an Action-RPG rather than just an action game? What does the Action-RPG have that the non-RPGs lack? Or what does it lack that the non-RPGs have? Here is the problem I see with that. RPG has no meaning because it encompasses a lot of different traits to it; level progression, character choice and interaction, hard rule-sets that emulate tabletop settings or create customized rulesets for their own game, a dose of exploration and discovery, player interaction and storytelling, to name a few. Combat can be boiled down to different styles, progression and system mechanics can be tweaked, and gameplay can be fast, slow, or somewhere in between. It can be crafting, card based, party based, singular, monster hunting or catching, multiplayer or single player. A lot of these traits on their own are nothing, or are fully part of other genres in the gaming world. Combining them, however, with other traits gives us an "RPG" video game. It's like cooking, were adding the right ingredients to turn our food into something else. It is also why the term RPG is meaningless in a lot of ways, because it encompasses so many parts to it it's impossible to determine a concrete definition. A shooting game is simple, concrete, FPS is first-person perspective, smooth aiming and a few other traits in design and gameplay, Third Person is over the shoulder, can have cover-based mechanics, and so forth. Another shooter genre is the run n gun the 2-d shooters. Those have no real argument to them. So for Action-RPG, it's emphasis on fast combat primarily from what ive seen. Secret of Mana, for example, was an Action RPG because it had no turn-based mechanics, tactical combat, and level progression we normally see in an RPG at a time when turn-based was the norm. Likewise, Mass Effect, due to its combat mechanics, it is action-heavy, with power and gunplay use and squad commanding, but we see progression and dialogue choices that befit the role-playing game, along with a dose of exploration. that many latch onto as well. What it lacks for other RPGs could be a number of things. Combat and rule-set come to mind, faster pace, different mechanics used for fighting, lack of total control of all of your characters. A more hack n' slash approach vs a tactical approach. We also can toy with progression as well, some Action RPGs use progression in the weapons you pick up, over leveling up stats. Some also focus on loot gains heavily vs character progression. It ultimately depends on the game, but when you say Action RPG, general traits are usually recognized, faster pace, some form of progression, player skill/control vs tactical control in many cases. This is why I argue the term has no meaning. It gains meaning when it is attached to that adjective. You are right, RPG does add meaning to the word. But RPG alone has none because it embodies too many traits, too many points that can make up the bulk of another genre.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 8, 2016 14:40:17 GMT
True. I'm not claiming the random dungeons break the setting, just that they make it less interesting. Again, I think it's a terrible game. Actually, I've only actually played Diablo 2. It matches your description of the first. Well Diablo was also trying to be more combat gameplay focused and the random dungeons help to make the experience of combat different every time. It works well because it means not instantly knowing where everything is. Diablo as a series was also never intended to be a pure RPG but rather an action RPG which has an even worse case of ambiguous definition than just RPG does. Mass Effect actually falls into that category as well. They're only doing it backwards if you're working off the assumption that they're trying to create games with the greatest freedom to roleplay. It's been extremely clear to me for a very long time now that BioWare is more interested in telling a story than they are allowing us to roleplay as much as possible. Even in Inquisition which you can say is better for RP than the other recent games, still is trying to tell us a big epic story.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 8, 2016 16:54:04 GMT
It's been extremely clear to me for a very long time now that BioWare is more interested in telling a story than they are allowing us to roleplay as much as possible. Even in Inquisition which you can say is better for RP than the other recent games, still is trying to tell us a big epic story. I don't see how BioWare's preferences are relevant. I don't care if they tell a story. I care if I can roleplay, and I'd like them to be better at describing whether roleplaying is supported by their games.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 8, 2016 17:36:36 GMT
It's been extremely clear to me for a very long time now that BioWare is more interested in telling a story than they are allowing us to roleplay as much as possible. Even in Inquisition which you can say is better for RP than the other recent games, still is trying to tell us a big epic story. I don't see how BioWare's preferences are relevant. I don't care if they tell a story. I care if I can roleplay, and I'd like them to be better at describing whether roleplaying is supported by their games. It matters because BioWare is the one making the game and that is their goal for the game. It would be like if I were hammering in a nail and you told me I should be using a screwdriver on a screw. That's nice but I'm trying to hammer in a nail, not screw in a screw. The fact that one uses a screwdriver on a screw is irrelevant to what I am trying to achieve. That makes it pretty silly to claim that BioWare's approach is backwards, because they aren't trying to do the thing you're claiming their approach is backwards for. Their approach isn't backwards for the thing BioWare actually is trying to do, which is cinematic story telling. Sure the label RPG gets slapped on it by the masses, but that's because the term itself isn't very solidly defined among gamers as a whole. You can disagree with the usage and try to change things all you want but you should be fully aware of it by now and alter expectations of things that have that label accordingly. At this point not doing that I would consider to be your own fault for any misconceptions that occur about use of the term RPG, as you're intentionally choosing to ignore how people are using the term even knowing that we're not using in the way that you do. Things like how much you can RP is stuff you can get from other players after the game is out. BioWare's marketing focuses on trying to actually sell the game to the masses, not being as descriptive as possible about everything you can do in the game. That's how marketing works and why I tell people never to buy into it.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 8, 2016 20:42:28 GMT
Here is the problem I see with that. RPG has no meaning because it encompasses a lot of different traits to it; level progression, character choice and interaction, hard rule-sets that emulate tabletop settings or create customized rulesets for their own game, a dose of exploration and discovery, player interaction and storytelling, to name a few. Combat can be boiled down to different styles, progression and system mechanics can be tweaked, and gameplay can be fast, slow, or somewhere in between. It can be crafting, card based, party based, singular, monster hunting or catching, multiplayer or single player. A lot of these traits on their own are nothing, or are fully part of other genres in the gaming world. Combining them, however, with other traits gives us an "RPG" video game. It's like cooking, were adding the right ingredients to turn our food into something else. It is also why the term RPG is meaningless in a lot of ways, because it encompasses so many parts to it it's impossible to determine a concrete definition. A shooting game is simple, concrete, FPS is first-person perspective, smooth aiming and a few other traits in design and gameplay, Third Person is over the shoulder, can have cover-based mechanics, and so forth. Another shooter genre is the run n gun the 2-d shooters. Those have no real argument to them. So for Action-RPG, it's emphasis on fast combat primarily from what ive seen. Secret of Mana, for example, was an Action RPG because it had no turn-based mechanics, tactical combat, and level progression we normally see in an RPG at a time when turn-based was the norm. Likewise, Mass Effect, due to its combat mechanics, it is action-heavy, with power and gunplay use and squad commanding, but we see progression and dialogue choices that befit the role-playing game, along with a dose of exploration. that many latch onto as well. What it lacks for other RPGs could be a number of things. Combat and rule-set come to mind, faster pace, different mechanics used for fighting, lack of total control of all of your characters. A more hack n' slash approach vs a tactical approach. We also can toy with progression as well, some Action RPGs use progression in the weapons you pick up, over leveling up stats. Some also focus on loot gains heavily vs character progression. It ultimately depends on the game, but when you say Action RPG, general traits are usually recognized, faster pace, some form of progression, player skill/control vs tactical control in many cases. This is why I argue the term has no meaning. It gains meaning when it is attached to that adjective. You are right, RPG does add meaning to the word. But RPG alone has none because it embodies too many traits, too many points that can make up the bulk of another genre. I was going to write a point-by-point response to this, but I realized I basically agree with you.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 8, 2016 23:56:42 GMT
It matters because BioWare is the one making the game and that is their goal for the game. It would be like if I were hammering in a nail and you told me I should be using a screwdriver on a screw. That's nice but I'm trying to hammer in a nail, not screw in a screw. The fact that one uses a screwdriver on a screw is irrelevant to what I am trying to achieve. What's happening is that BioWare is hammering a nail while they're claiming to drive a screw, and I'm pointing out the differences between what they're actually doing and what they claim they're doing. I don't care what they're trying to achieve. I care that they're not achieving the thing they say they're trying to achieve. It's not the masses slapping on the label. It's EA. Look how the games are categorized on Origin. On BSN Prime, I was actively trying to disrupt that by dissenting publicly in an official venue. Now that venue is gone, so until I find a bigger audience somewhere that no longer serves any useful purpose. The way the masses use the label makes no sense. They're doing to RPG what popular music did to R&B. R&B no longer has anything to do with rhythm and blues, and as the RPG label is used now it has nothing to do with roleplaying. This is specifically what I was trying to prevent. George Orwell warned us about this, but we didn't learn. Changing the language changes how people perceive things. It's dumb, but it's true. The label should have nothing to do with the thing, but that seems to be not how people think. That, I would argue, places an undue burden on the consumer. The publisher should answer questions about their product. They should be willing to stand behind true statements in response to clear questions. Also, more and more, players don't seem to know what roleplaying is. I will continue to want CRPGs to emulate tabletop gameplay without the need for other players, but players don't know what tabletop gameplay is like. But even if the publisher doesn't know either, a detailed description of the gameplay will allow me to make that determination myself. Only I know exactly what I want. Only I am qualified to decide whether a game suits my preferences. Frankly, if the publishers would just document their games better, this problem would go away. That this continues to be a problem speakd ill of both the publisher and the consumers. Is it any wonder my misanthropy grows by the day?
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 9, 2016 15:56:50 GMT
What's happening is that BioWare is hammering a nail while they're claiming to drive a screw, and I'm pointing out the differences between what they're actually doing and what they claim they're doing. I don't care what they're trying to achieve. I care that they're not achieving the thing they say they're trying to achieve. Only in this case they're using a label that doesn't have a set in stone agreed upon definition. So you're more just insisting that it's a screw when the rest of us aren't calling it that. It's more like BioWare is hammering in a nail while saying "We're going to put this long piece of metal into that piece of wood" and you're insisting that they're wrong because it's not a screw. EA uses that because that's what everybody else calls it. Why wouldn't EA put the label on it on Origin that everybody calls it? They're trying to sell it to the masses, so they use the terminology that the masses use. Language changes as times and technology changes. That's why none of us are speaking ancient English anymore. Changing how people perceive things is not, strictly speaking, a bad thing. If language were 100% unflexible then we'd need to come up with dozens of different words to describe very similar but not quite identical things, and that's an inefficient use of language. Plus since we've established that a game can be more RPG or less RPG, one has to define where along that long a game ceases to be a RPG. That's something that's going to be extremely subjective. Somebody might consider Mass Effect far enough long that line to still be a RPG. You might not, but who is to say that you're right and they're wrong? It's not on the company to go into absurd level of details about subjective things you can do in the game. That's why it's on the consumer and people like reviewers to let you know how it is. If you were just trying to determine if a game suits your preferences or not that'd be one thing, but that's not all you're doing here. You're insisting that games calling themselves RPGs aren't RPGs because they aren't doing the things that you want them to do. Now if RPGs are just toys that let you roleplay in them, and roleplaying is just acting as somebody who isn't you I can apply that to every single game where you play a character who isn't yourself. Nowhere in the definition of roleplay does it say that it needs to not be skill based, nor does it say that you have to control 100% of that character. We can argue that for the most effective RPing those things ought to be there, but the actual original definition of RPing doesn't include those as requirements to gain the label. It's probably because the idea of roleplay predates modern tabletop gaming by hundreds of years so the original definition has no concerns for its specific mechanics but hey, language shouldn't change right?
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Post by Catfishers on Sept 9, 2016 16:14:15 GMT
Is engaging with a cool story really so low on the wish-list for people?
Yes, roleplaying is awesome, but I don't want to role-play against nothing, I want a backdrop to build my character against so that other characters can realistically engage with my character. If I wanted to be able to just do whatever I want and have the game respond to literally any and all of my choices in real time like a real human I would go and play DnD, where an actual human can just make something up to cater to my every whim.
It seems like there's been a shift in recent years of people wanting every game to be a realm of infinite possibility; a sandbox where they can be anything they want regardless of the setting or the actual plot of the game. Why do people think this is attainable? Ultimately you're interacting with a (vast) set of parameters created by a group of people working against time and budgetary constraints; their resources are not infinite and therefore there are finite possibilities. For other characters to respond and react dynamically to the things your character does there has to be a limit to what you can be and do because someone else has to have pre-empted your choice and allocated resources to prioritising a response to it. Developers work hard on their product, they aren't trying to cheat you, they're making their game in the best way they are able.
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Post by Biodron on Sept 9, 2016 17:38:03 GMT
No thanks you, I like voiced pc in mass effect and silent in DA
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 9, 2016 18:01:18 GMT
Is engaging with a cool story really so low on the wish-list for people? Yes, roleplaying is awesome, but I don't want to role-play against nothing, I want a backdrop to build my character against so that other characters can realistically engage with my character. If I wanted to be able to just do whatever I want and have the game respond to literally any and all of my choices in real time like a real human I would go and play DnD, where an actual human can just make something up to cater to my every whim. It seems like there's been a shift in recent years of people wanting every game to be a realm of infinite possibility; a sandbox where they can be anything they want regardless of the setting or the actual plot of the game. Why do people think this is attainable? Ultimately you're interacting with a (vast) set of parameters created by a group of people working against time and budgetary constraints; their resources are not infinite and therefore there are finite possibilities. For other characters to respond and react dynamically to the things your character does there has to be a limit to what you can be and do because someone else has to have pre-empted your choice and allocated resources to prioritising a response to it. Developers work hard on their product, they aren't trying to cheat you, they're making their game in the best way they are able. I think what happened specifically here is that BioWare's shift from RP focus to cinematic story telling caused a divide in the fanbase over the years. There's people who want the "old BioWare" back that made games like Baldur's Gate which didn't have a terribly amazing story but had great RP potential and people who enjoy the new story focused games they make like Mass Effect. Most of the people who want the RP focus understand that computer technology is still limited meaning limited reactions, but they want as much as they can get. Games like the original Baldur's Gate do have limits as to how the world reacts to your choices(and what choices you can make), but the game lets you roleplay a very wide variety of character types. In a game like Mass Effect though the way they told the story it pretty much demands that Shep be Shep as they defined him/her. The story focus limited how much we could roleplay the character because they needed certain things out of the PC for their story. Personally I still enjoy both types of games. Mass Effect is one of my favourite games of all time despite the fact that I've regularly said I don't bother to RP in it because I feel it's too limited. and as much flak as I give Baldur's Gate for some very clunky design choices, I still think it's a great game.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 9, 2016 20:16:07 GMT
Language changes as times and technology changes. That's why none of us are speaking ancient English anymore. Changing how people perceive things is not, strictly speaking, a bad thing. If language were 100% unflexible then we'd need to come up with dozens of different words to describe very similar but not quite identical things, and that's an inefficient use of language. Leaving these lexical gaps unfilled undermines the whole purpose of language, which is to express meaning. We should want new words to describe new things. Or compound words. We would never buy business software with such sparse documentation. We should we tolerate it with entertainment software? If we get detailed specifications, we can each determine whether the software provides the features we want. Reviewers can't do that because they don't know or care what every single consumer's preferences are. I did that on BSN Prime to deaw attention to the issue. I was trying to direct discussion toward the issues I thought were being unduly ignored, and I think I did a good job of that. Discussions got more attention if they inspired more responses, so I took extreme positions to generate those responses. I would argue that the stat-driven requirement follows logically from the need for world coherence, but you're right about the other. Language should grow, not shrink.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 9, 2016 20:18:36 GMT
Is engaging with a cool story really so low on the wish-list for people? I don't think I can engage with it without being given the tools necessary to roleplay. Otherwise I'm just an outside observer. That's what makes games better than other narrative media.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 9, 2016 21:37:16 GMT
I think what happened specifically here is that BioWare's shift from RP focus to cinematic story telling caused a divide in the fanbase over the years. There's people who want the "old BioWare" back that made games like Baldur's Gate which didn't have a terribly amazing story but had great RP potential and people who enjoy the new story focused games they make like Mass Effect. Most of the people who want the RP focus understand that computer technology is still limited meaning limited reactions, but they want as much as they can get. Games like the original Baldur's Gate do have limits as to how the world reacts to your choices(and what choices you can make), but the game lets you roleplay a very wide variety of character types. In a game like Mass Effect though the way they told the story it pretty much demands that Shep be Shep as they defined him/her. The story focus limited how much we could roleplay the character because they needed certain things out of the PC for their story. I'll agree with this. I will say that BioWare'sgames have become a bit muddled over the years, and I don't really understand some of their design choices. BG was terrific. BG2 I found quite limiting, but it was still a good RPG. It was just too linear, and the plot hooks to specific in the responses they required from the protagonist. NWN was a return to form though. I still play that game (though it doesn't run well on modern operating systems). I think it offered the greatest roleplaying freedom in any BioWare game, partly because it wasn't party-based. KotOR really confused me. It was really good, but made some strange choices with regard to party control. It acted just like NWN (same engine), but gave you a full party which you couldn't actually control. Just one character at a time. But it was a console game, so I didn't worry about it. Dragon Age was announced shortly thereafter, so that my focus. I didn't play JE or ME at release, because I was waiting for DA and expecting a proper party-based game like BG, but with thr lessons learned from NWN. And while the renamed DAO was excellent, it continued to make many of the same "mistakes" I'd seen introduced in KotOR. I still remember how I objected when they announced that DA's NPCs would be fully voiced, which I immediately thought was a mistake. I think DA should have been built as a successor to BioWare's PC games, ignoring the console titles. The two platforms were obviously diverging, but then DAO tried to split the difference. So did DAI, to an extent. To me, the ideal CRPG is still Ultima IV. I keep tryig to push games in that direction.
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Post by Robo on Sept 9, 2016 21:46:15 GMT
nah
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 9, 2016 21:51:04 GMT
Leaving these lexical gaps unfilled undermines the whole purpose of language, which is to express meaning. We should want new words to describe new things. Or compound words. There's not a gap when we use sub-genres. A while ago we used to have a definition of planet that was essentially "A naturally occuring celestial body orbiting around a star that dominates its own orbit", only we found this thing floating in space that was all of that except it wasn't around a star. Creating an entirely new word to describe "Exactly like a planet but it doesn't dominate its own orbit" would be an inefficient use of language. Instead there was discussion about changing our definition of the word planet and using the sub term "Rogue Planet" to describe what we had found. That's one of the strengths of the English language: It's very flexible. Business software doesn't typically involve very subjective things. When we buy software we have a very specific and objective list of feature that we want. However as has already been established, RPGs are something a game can be more of or less of one. If somebody tried to sell me business software and said "well it has a little bit of Paypal integration, but not much" my response would be "That makes no sense. Either you have it or you don't. Which one is it?". If I tried that on a RPG, due to the definition of the term being so subjective the answer could be "yes, we have roleplaying" for a lot of games that we wouldn't normally consider RPGs. Since the growth still has to cover the original definition, that means it can't actually include stats because the original definition of roleplaying pre-dates the tabletop games we use with stats in them. Originally roleplaying was just a form of acting, and acting can't be stat driven. LARP also would be, by definition, a RPG. The fact that stats are needed to cover a person being able to roleplay a variety of characters that possess skills that they personally don't isn't actually relevant to that, because it wasn't in the original definition. Under your own argument, you should create a new term to describe what you've been talking about when you say you want to roleplay in video games if you want stats to be attached to it.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 9, 2016 22:58:25 GMT
I want a stat-based RPG.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 10, 2016 15:36:26 GMT
Pillars of Eternity is the most recent one I can think of. And it had a few issues. Maybe Tyranny will be better.
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Sylvius the Mad
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 11, 2016 2:29:57 GMT
Pillars of Eternity is the most recent one I can think of. And it had a few issues. Maybe Tyranny will be better. I didn't love the ruleset. The symmetry across classes was too game-y.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 11, 2016 14:57:20 GMT
Maybe Tyranny will be better. Indeed. The world so far sounds very interesting, and mechanics are supposed to be changed and improved from PoE. It's based on a more of a skill-style system like Elder Scrolls, mixed with talent trees and the like for further character development. Much like Pillars of Eternity, I get a more action-like 4th edition vibe from it. Which is where I think the symmetry comment lies in, if you play 4th edition there is a lot of synergy between classes for combos and combat mechanics, which leads to them feeling the same every so often.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 11, 2016 15:05:39 GMT
It's based on a more of a skill-style system like Elder Scrolls, mixed with talent trees and the like for further character development. Much like Pillars of Eternity, I get a more action-like 4th edition vibe from it. Which is where I think the symmetry comment lies in, if you play 4th edition there is a lot of synergy between classes for combos and combat mechanics, which leads to them feeling the same every so often. I certainly like the sound of talent trees and deeper character development. Do you have a source for that? My own, for right now. Most of it stems from the Dev logs though.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 12, 2016 0:38:21 GMT
I didn't love the ruleset. The symmetry across classes was too game-y. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "symmetry"? All the attributes do basically the same thing regardless of class. I don't mean in that all the classes follow the same rules - that would be a good thing, and something DA2 and DAI don't do - but I mean how in PoE the Strength stat improves the power of all attacks of any sort, even magical attacks. Obsidian said they wanted to avoid dump stats, which I don't agree with, but even then there are ways to make all stats useful without having auch obviously gamey mechanics.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 12, 2016 0:42:03 GMT
Pillars of Eternity is the most recent one I can think of. And it had a few issues. Maybe Tyranny will be better. I would count the DA games as stat-based, especially DAO. The ruleset could stand to be deeper, and the rules are routinely ignored by the narrative. Those features could stand to be improved. The rules of the game should describe the physical laws of the universe.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 12, 2016 13:29:54 GMT
The idea that a wizard can make his spells more powerful by developing his muscles is rather strange, magic is essentially mind over matter. And vice versa, the idea of an intelligent Barbarian is also rather comical... In better rulesets, Strength is made useful for all characters by the existence of weight limits. Also, all abilities can be made useful by having stat requirements for equipment.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Sept 12, 2016 16:34:27 GMT
Still, a Barbarian shouldn't really require intelligence to wield a new hammer... It's a Hammer, you smash things with it... The idea of avoiding dump stats is interesting in itself, it's just that the stats need to be appropriate to the class. Ideally, IMO, every class should have its own set of stats that governs different aspects relating to its abilities. A Wizard / Mage would choose between: Intelligence / Willpower magic resistance - Magic Damage, Passion - crit chance / crit damage, Attunement - mana reserves and regeneration, I would even replace the Con stat with an appropriate magical sounding stat, to denote the fact that it's not muscle that will stop the blows but rather a certain magical discipline governed by the wizard's will. (an additional completely physical stat could be added as well for certain checks and flavor, something like "Athletics") The only "problem" I can see is that it leaves no stats to manage a simple physical weapon, such as a small crossbow, a staff, etc. But personally I think that wizards should stick to magic anyway, and have a cantrip or a magical weapon such as a wand for "pew-pew" between actual spells. If they want to use weapons, they can choose a class that combines magic with weapons. Note: This is more for a video game environment, a P&P adventure will require additional rules. A Warrior / Barbarian / Rogue would choose between more traditional stats such as Str, Dex, Con, and will have additional stats such Discipline, Subterfuge, Rage, or other class appropriate stats in order to manage other aspects of the class. Of course, an intelligent (as in the classic stat of Intelligense) Warrior could exist, but in my opinion such a character deserves a class of his own. Either a lore-heavy fighting class like some sort of an an engineer or artificer / inventor, or a Warrior with knowledge on the Arcane - such as a witch-hunter or a magical warrior. To summarize: I do think that the idea of useless stats is a waste of customization opportunity. The ability to micro-manage certain aspects of your character's ability is much more appealing to me, assuming it is handled in a way that makes sense and appropriate to the class. While I do prefer classless systems, either way I'd like to see CRPGs designed with rulesets that are sufficiently robust to run a tabletop game.
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