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Post by Zemgus on Jul 21, 2017 11:36:06 GMT
Re: PW's 'sensitivity reader' tweets Iron Bull romance at times felt like reading a wikipedia page due to the "safety words" and all that stuff and then there was the lecture of Krem's gender identity... honestly I would've preferred both to be handled differently. DA is fantasy fiction and entertainment. It shouldn't take itself so very seriously with real life issues and politics because at least I found that distracting and it took me out of the setting. I didn't have the same problem with Dorian's personal quest for example - because it felt more genuine in a way and had to do with Dorian's personality more than anything else. Where as Iron Bull's lecture comes out of nowhere and doesn't really fit his character at all - but it's something that bothers me about him often, he's too different from the other qunari and even if it's intentional and part of it's an act on his behalf, he still doesn't really react to things like someone from an entirely different culture. How should he react other than how he feels about issues personally? Bull isn't Sten or Arishok, who are as Qunari as one can get and look at others with either confusion or disdain. If he wasn't open-minded and easy-going in the first place, he wouldn't have collected his band of ragtags from all walks of life in the first place... nevermind that he's shown to be protective of Chargers, so I'm confused as to why him standing up for Krem should be characterized as 'out of nowhere'? And he's not 'lecturing' us out of the blue: we have to ask him about stuff and he responds by presenting his point of view. I also find the whole 'DA is fantasy fiction an entertainment therefore it shouldn't take itself so seriously with real life issues and politics' as somewhat bizarre, given that being serious at portraying real life issues and politics has been done in DA series since DAO? Anyway, from my point of view this isn't a binary matter - one can chew gum and walk at the same time. DA can be fantasy fiction and entertainment while weaving in serious takes on real life issues. By "lecturing" I meant the first scene where Krem's real gender is revealed. Bull reacts very aggressively to rather innocent dialogue options. Also "band of ragtags from all walks of life" isn't because he's open-minded - he said being a Qunari makes recruiting mercenaries difficult and beggars can't be choosers. Him being protective of his men isn't out of character at all. That's not what I meant. Before DAI those issues weren't really a issue - they were just a part of the world and weren't distracting. However with DAI we got characters like Krem who only seem to be there for representation (same with Andromeda) and even changing established lore to accommodate this. If you take away the gender issues there isn't much left to Krem and that's a weak character in my books. I have no problem with a transgender character like Krem, only the way it was handled (it could have been written so that it feels more natural and isn't the main/only focus of that character. Like in previous games). I think it's cool that they tried something different with Iron Bull's romance but again it could've been written better... in my opinion. I'm not going to specify the different things I didn't like about it because this probably isn't the right topic for that conversation. Bull isn't Sten or Arishok but he still is a Qunari and comes from a very different culture. Yet he doesn't really almost ever behave like it. I guess you can say "well that's because he's a spy and lying to make the Qun look better than it actually is." True enough. What I like about the Qun is how alien and different it is. I personally wouldn't want to see that changed... and by that I don't mean that it shouldn't have any redeeming qualities - because it already does and being different isn't bad. |
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Post by Zemgus on Jul 21, 2017 11:45:01 GMT
IIRC, some members of the BDSM community applauded Weekes for the way he wrote Bull's romance arc, while others criticised him for the very same reason. Patrick also claimed that he sought councel from BDSM people while writing Bull's romance. Because everyone has different opinion and there's no ultimate right answer. Which is why in a fictional setting like this I think writing good scenes is more important than being 100% politically correct. How can you write anything if you're always so worried about offending someone? That's going to happen anyway since it seems nowadays people are always just looking for some reason to be offended. You can write what you think is good and right and still respect other people's opinions (while understanding that that's all they are - just opinions) - but trying to please everyone at once is impossible. I've seen people complain about Iron Bull representing the BDSM community in a totally wrong light - but why should a fictional character represent anything in the first place? If someone is going to judge an entire community based on one fictional characters actions then that's laughable and who even cares what that person thinks? |
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 21, 2017 12:27:15 GMT
Which is why in a fictional setting like this I think writing good scenes is more important than being 100% politically correct. How can you write anything if you're always so worried about offending someone? This was the question Patrick was answering in his series of tweets. The point of consulting people is to find out if you're writing something that will be read in a completely different way than you intend. You're going for some effect, but the person lets you know "oh, if you write it like that, it will have this completely different effect than you were going for." It has nothing to do with not offending people, and everything to do with avoiding weird distracting elements that you didn't put into the story on purpose. A lot of stuff that's off-target isn't exactly offensive to the affected group, so much as it's cringey or goofy, and it takes them out of the story. A good example is cultural stereotypes - think of how silly and distracting it is when animes use over-the-top cowboy characters to represent westerners. It feels the same way when western media does the reverse. It's not so much offensive as it is absurd/hilarious. If a story is trying to have a serious moment, or is trying to focus on something else in the scene, overused stereotypes or misconceptions steal focus from where the writer wants it to be. Sometimes because the audience is too busy giggling.  And as he mentioned, sometimes you want that effect. But it gives you more control if you are aware of it, and can do it deliberately instead of accidentally. |
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Post by Zemgus on Jul 21, 2017 12:34:22 GMT
Which is why in a fictional setting like this I think writing good scenes is more important than being 100% politically correct. How can you write anything if you're always so worried about offending someone? This was the question Patrick was answering in his series of tweets. The point of consulting people is to find out if you're writing something that will be read in a completely different way than you intend. You're going for some effect, but the person lets you know "oh, if you write it like that, it will have this completely different effect than you were going for." It has nothing to do with not offending people, and everything to do with avoiding weird distracting elements that you didn't put into the story on purpose. A lot of stuff that's off-target isn't exactly offensive to the affected group, so much as it's cringey or goofy, and it takes them out of the story. A good example is cultural stereotypes - think of how silly and distracting it is when animes use over-the-top cowboy characters to represent westerners. It feels the same way when western media does the reverse. It's not so much offensive as it is absurd/hilarious. If a story is trying to have a serious moment, or is trying to focus on something else in the scene, overused stereotypes or misconceptions steal focus from where the writer wants it to be. Sometimes because the audience is too busy giggling. And as he mentioned, sometimes you want that effect. But it gives you more control if you are aware of it, and can do it deliberately instead of accidentally. Ah, good point. That makes sense. Maybe I was misinterpreting what he was saying a little bit. I meant more like when people complain about little things and make a mountain out of a molehill. |
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2017 12:45:07 GMT
IIRC, some members of the BDSM community applauded Weekes for the way he wrote Bull's romance arc, while others criticised him for the very same reason. Patrick also claimed that he sought councel from BDSM people while writing Bull's romance. Because everyone has different opinion and there's no ultimate right answer. Which is why in a fictional setting like this I think writing good scenes is more important than being 100% politically correct. How can you write anything if you're always so worried about offending someone? That's going to happen anyway since it seems nowadays people are always just looking for some reason to be offended. You can write what you think is good and right and still respect other people's opinions (while understanding that that's all they are - just opinions) - but trying to please everyone at once is impossible. I really dislike the notion that anyone who wants to be more inclusive, nuanced or informed is just being "politically correct"... What kind of strange times we have reached that being decent to one another is thought of as a hindrance? Besides, I think it's a stretch to say that Bioware aims towards "not offending anyone". I mean, seriously - just because there are no ultimate right answers doesn't mean that there aren't better answers or better ways of writing or portraying things (especially if one actually cares about the message not being muddled with their own ignorance) and that we shouldn't venture to find them (even if we don't always succeed). In fact, hardly ever anyone improves or creates better stories when they don't reach out to others and other points of view. Precisely because "what we think is good" oftentimes isn't. Art oftentimes means transgressing boundaries. That transgression doesn't always means prodding taboos or doing things that people don't find agreeable. It also means transcending one's limited point of view, and consultations with communities we want to talk about and - more importantly - care about their portrayal, is part of that process. ... That's strange reasoning. The strength of Bioware's characters lies precisely in the fact that they're relatable and represent people that could exist in real life. In fact, that's what most good characters are, not just in BW games. Also - I don't think many people are judging entire community based on one fictional character. But here's where the problem of lack of representation rears its head, so any portrayal that find its way to fiction will naturally be a subject of more intense scrutiny than more run-of-the-mill characters or themes. |
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Post by arvaarad on Jul 21, 2017 12:48:58 GMT
Ah, good point. That makes sense. Maybe I was misinterpreting what he was saying a little bit. I meant more like when people complain about little things and make a mountain out of a molehill. Even real mountains look like molehills from far away. That's why it's good to check with the people who live near the mountain.  |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jul 21, 2017 15:36:01 GMT
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesWhen your sensitivity reader calls out something bad you did, appropriate response is, "Oops, didn't know that," and then you make a change. (This tweet was in regards to a book he's writing - Hrungr) Austin Dixon @adixonianI think this explains a lot. Is this really a thing?! Sensitivity reader, I can't even. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes Austin, wanting to get a gut check from an expert when writing about other cultures or ways of life IS really a thing. Sorry you can't even! Also, general note: having a sensitivity reader doesn't mean you give up creative freedom. It means you can make informed choices. Sometimes unfucking something I fucked up is a simple word choice that means NADA to me. Super easy way to make something more readers like! Sometime's it's trickier or more complex, as changing something messes something else up. Then you pick your poison. What can you live with? But what's important is: having a sensitivity reader lets me make INFORMED edits. I KNOW whether I'm making choices that'll hurt people. That doesn't mean I never will. They're still choices. But knowledge is, by and large, better than ignorance. Holly King @smokesinbedI think this is a bad way to use such input. Ex: Cutting scene from DA => women said it was rapey. Priority should be story, not feelings. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes It sounds like you disapprove of listening to expert feedback because you heard we once changed something. Hoping I've misunderstood you. Holly King @smokesinbedIf you write about a sensitive subject and it affects the audience, and then your response is to undo your work, that is tragic. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes If you write about a sensitive subject, and it affects the audience IN A WAY YOU DIDN'T INTEND AND DON'T LIKE, response is TO CHANGE IT. Simon @simonjadis @patrickweekes Have you seen this yet? It's pretty heavy but, um, good job with Bull and Cole. dragonageconfessions.tumblr.com/post/163224347858/confession-my-big-brother-is-a-special-forces Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesWow. That's heavy, and I hope I didn't hurt that dude. (I wrote Bull not as having super-PTSD, but a definite post-military hypervigilance.) Heather @revera_LavellanSomehow, whenever people hear you changed stuff they always assume the original was SUPER GOOD! And the damn SJWs forced you to RUIN ART! Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesI wasn't sure I should say this, but it needs to be said: all y'all need to really understand that my first drafts are often SUPER SHITTY. It is ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE to rewrite/revise something to death, filing down all the coolness until only mediocrity remains. BUT! What I see about A ZILLION TIMES AS OFTEN is something that would've benefited from an edit. Edits, revisions, iteration: THEY GOOD. Susan Arendt @susanarendt Something I ask my writers is "Is X the fight you want to have with readers?If it is, ok, but if it isn't, change this wording." Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesFor work-writing, it's, "Am I prepared to justify this choice to a roomful of fans, many of whom are recording me as I answer?" This was a very interesting view into PW's approach to writing. It's a very real dilemma and I've gone back and forth on what I think is the right way and the wrong way to approach writing, in this context. I usually start from the position of New Criticism and intentional fallacy; which is about how the reader's response is paramount and the author's intention, life and beliefs are irrelevant. But that position, taken to it's extreme, results in a jihad being declared against Salman Rushdie for the Satanic Verses. So I'm now kind of mostly in the intentional fallacy camp, up to a point, beyond which you're just playing with matches in the explosives shack. That said, I really like PW's rejoinder: If you write about a sensitive subject, and it affects the audience IN A WAY YOU DIDN'T INTEND AND DON'T LIKE, response is TO CHANGE IT. That absolutely flies in the face of intentional fallacy, but if I read it the other way around to put less emphasis on intention, "IN A WAY YOU DON'T LIKE and didn't intend", I'm pretty happy with that. Reading it that way puts the author back in the driver's seat for their own work. The decision to change something is driven from the AUTHOR not liking the way it is written. |
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Post by Zemgus on Jul 21, 2017 15:47:42 GMT
Because everyone has different opinion and there's no ultimate right answer. Which is why in a fictional setting like this I think writing good scenes is more important than being 100% politically correct. How can you write anything if you're always so worried about offending someone? That's going to happen anyway since it seems nowadays people are always just looking for some reason to be offended. You can write what you think is good and right and still respect other people's opinions (while understanding that that's all they are - just opinions) - but trying to please everyone at once is impossible. 1. I really dislike the notion that anyone who wants to be more inclusive, nuanced or informed is just being "politically correct"... What kind of strange times we have reached that being decent to one another is thought of as a hindrance? 2. Besides, I think it's a stretch to say that Bioware aims towards "not offending anyone". I mean, seriously - just because there are no ultimate right answers doesn't mean that there aren't better answers or better ways of writing or portraying things (especially if one actually cares about the message not being muddled with their own ignorance) and that we shouldn't venture to find them (even if we don't always succeed). In fact, hardly ever anyone improves or creates better stories when they don't reach out to others and other points of view. Precisely because "what we think is good" oftentimes isn't. Art oftentimes means transgressing boundaries. That transgression doesn't always means prodding taboos or doing things that people don't find agreeable. It also means transcending one's limited point of view, and consultations with communities we want to talk about and - more importantly - care about their portrayal, is part of that process. 3. ... That's strange reasoning. The strength of Bioware's characters lies precisely in the fact that they're relatable and represent people that could exist in real life. In fact, that's what most good characters are, not just in BW games. Also - I don't think many people are judging entire community based on one fictional character. But here's where the problem of lack of representation rears its head, so any portrayal that find its way to fiction will naturally be a subject of more intense scrutiny than more run-of-the-mill characters or themes. 1. Not what I said. Perhaps you are talking in general or missed the point. 2. I wasn't talking about Bioware but writing in general. And what is the "better way"? Better for who? Everyone has their own opinion on the matter. I don't disagree with what you say about reaching out to others. 3. You miss the point again. All good characters are relatable. My original point about Iron Bull is that some of the scenes with him feel like the writer was more concerned about being "correct" than writing actually good scenes. That was just my impression though. |
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2017 16:09:16 GMT
1. I really dislike the notion that anyone who wants to be more inclusive, nuanced or informed is just being "politically correct"... What kind of strange times we have reached that being decent to one another is thought of as a hindrance?
2. Besides, I think it's a stretch to say that Bioware aims towards "not offending anyone". I mean, seriously - just because there are no ultimate right answers doesn't mean that there aren't better answers or better ways of writing or portraying things (especially if one actually cares about the message not being muddled with their own ignorance) and that we shouldn't venture to find them (even if we don't always succeed). In fact, hardly ever anyone improves or creates better stories when they don't reach out to others and other points of view. Precisely because "what we think is good" oftentimes isn't.
Art oftentimes means transgressing boundaries. That transgression doesn't always means prodding taboos or doing things that people don't find agreeable. It also means transcending one's limited point of view, and consultations with communities we want to talk about and - more importantly - care about their portrayal, is part of that process.
3. ... That's strange reasoning. The strength of Bioware's characters lies precisely in the fact that they're relatable and represent people that could exist in real life. In fact, that's what most good characters are, not just in BW games.
Also - I don't think many people are judging entire community based on one fictional character. But here's where the problem of lack of representation rears its head, so any portrayal that find its way to fiction will naturally be a subject of more intense scrutiny than more run-of-the-mill characters or themes. 1. Not what I said. Perhaps you are talking in general or missed the point. You were implying that what Bioware does is motivated by political correctness or willingness to please everyone. I could ask you the very same question at a time when you said that it's more important to write good scenes than being 100% politically correct. What is a "good scene" and what doesn't make it "politically correct"? As you've pointed out, everyone has opinion on the matter. As for what is a better way - since that was a very generalized point, it depends on what and how we apply it to. And I'm fairly sure that we can find a ton of examples of how things can be done better. 'Catwoman' and 'Wonder Woman' in terms of examples of female superheroes, for example. Or Disney's 'Pocahontas' and 'Moana', with the latter being considered better than the former in terms of portrayal of indigenous cultures crushed by colonialism. ...And I've pretty explicitly pointed that out? ... And a 'good scene' would be what? |
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Post by lilyenachaos on Jul 21, 2017 16:18:24 GMT
...And I've pretty explicitly pointed that out? I don't think all good characters have to be relatable. I couldn't relate at all to Vivienne or Sera and I still think they were well written. Also, I think PW did a fine job with the BDSM thing in the limited amount of time (scene wise) that he had to work with. I'd much rather have Bull's BDSM out there than the absolute shite that is 50 Shades. As for Bull's response to the Krem thing - I didn't like his response either, but I think it had more to do with the VA than what he actually said. He sounded very angry, which isn't a response you'd expect from Bull based on a simple question. |
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Post by Zemgus on Jul 21, 2017 16:28:44 GMT
1. Not what I said. Perhaps you are talking in general or missed the point. You were implying that what Bioware does is motivated by political correctness or willingness to please everyone. I could ask you the very same question at a time when you said that it's more important to write good scenes than being 100% politically correct. What is a "good scene" and what doesn't make it "politically correct"? As you've pointed out, everyone has opinion on the matter. As for what is a better way - since that was a very generalized point, it depends on what and how we apply it to. And I'm fairly sure that we can find a ton of examples of how things can be done better. 'Catwoman' and 'Wonder Woman' in terms of examples of female superheroes, for example. Or Disney's 'Pocahontas' and 'Moana', with the latter being considered better than the former in terms of portrayal of indigenous cultures crushed by colonialism. ...And I've pretty explicitly pointed that out? ... And a 'good scene' would be what? Yes we can find examples but what everyone thinks is better varies from person to person. I've already explained in my previous posts what I didn't like about Iron Bull and Krem. I didn't personally like IB's romance (almost) at all but this isn't the right place to get into it. With Krem I felt like their "issue" was too much of a focus point and there was little else to that character (much like the rest of the Chargers. They were all one-note 'joke' characters). It was distracting and didn't feel right for the setting. In my opinion. No I didn't. This is a specific writer we are talking about - no one else at Bioware has indicated that they need "sensitivity readers" to help them. |
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 21, 2017 16:43:33 GMT
BioWare @bioware You finished off the Mass Effect canvas, so we brought out the Dragon Age. Find our art wall at @darkhorsecomics booth 2615. #SDCC
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Post by Rascoth on Jul 21, 2017 16:48:25 GMT
Bull and pink Dawnstone horns? Good, good  |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jul 21, 2017 17:00:07 GMT
Carver looks kinda cute in that art style. |
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Post by lilyenachaos on Jul 21, 2017 17:08:13 GMT
Put down the pink marker and step away from the canvas! Cannot unsee that pink beard.
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Post by Rascoth on Jul 21, 2017 17:13:45 GMT
Put down the pink marker and step away from the canvas! Cannot unsee that pink beard. Hey! People are civil! For now. I bet at one point it'll end up looking like MET canvas and we'll all miss simplier times with pink beards  |
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2017 17:51:12 GMT
Yes we can find examples but what everyone thinks is better varies from person to person. I've already explained in my previous posts what I didn't like about Iron Bull and Krem. I didn't personally like IB's romance (almost) at all but this isn't the right place to get into it. With Krem I felt like their "issue" was too much of a focus point and there was little else to that character (much like the rest of the Chargers. They were all one-note 'joke' characters). It was distracting and didn't feel right for the setting. In my opinion. Opinion varying from person to person doesn't mean that at least some consensus can't be reached, or that people will be more on one side of the spectrum rather than other. This is not a binary matter. And you may dislike IB romance and feel some things are forced, but it'd seem that the general consensus is that people are happy with Bull and Krem, or how things were handled, even if it wasn't perfect for all. Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawYou go, Patrick.. Your arguments for awareness are 100% inline with work goals, too. ___ Also - we were talking in the context of content created for DA, which also happens to be content created by current Lead Writer for DA. |
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2017 17:52:51 GMT
Put down the pink marker and step away from the canvas! Cannot unsee that pink beard. That's what happens when a person steals all the beards  |
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Post by Zemgus on Jul 21, 2017 18:09:28 GMT
Yes we can find examples but what everyone thinks is better varies from person to person. I've already explained in my previous posts what I didn't like about Iron Bull and Krem. I didn't personally like IB's romance (almost) at all but this isn't the right place to get into it. With Krem I felt like their "issue" was too much of a focus point and there was little else to that character (much like the rest of the Chargers. They were all one-note 'joke' characters). It was distracting and didn't feel right for the setting. In my opinion. Opinion varying from person to person doesn't mean that at least some consensus can't be reached, or that people will be more on one side of the spectrum rather than other. This is not a binary matter. And you may dislike IB romance and feel some things are forced, but it'd seem that the general consensus is that people are happy with Bull and Krem, or how things were handled, even if it wasn't perfect for all. Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawYou go, Patrick.. Your arguments for awareness are 100% inline with work goals, too. ___ Also - we were talking in the context of content created for DA, which also happens to be content created by current Lead Writer for DA. And consensus isn't always right - as anyone who knows recent history would probably agree with. Besides forums like this one aren't the best place to get accurate evaluation of what all players think. Thank you for the Mike Laidlaw Twitter quote. I will read those tweets again with this in mind. |
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Post by Hrungr on Jul 21, 2017 18:11:20 GMT
Mike Laidlaw @ SDCC @mike_Laidlaw What do we call it when Xenon the Antiquarian lets slip a fart? Noble gas. 
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2017 18:13:34 GMT
Mike Laidlaw @ SDCC @mike_Laidlaw What do we call it when Xenon the Antiquarian lets slip a fart? Noble gas. Eww :x |
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Post by Rascoth on Jul 21, 2017 18:14:47 GMT
Mike Laidlaw @ SDCC @mike_Laidlaw What do we call it when Xenon the Antiquarian lets slip a fart? Noble gas.  |
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2017 18:16:44 GMT
Opinion varying from person to person doesn't mean that at least some consensus can't be reached, or that people will be more on one side of the spectrum rather than other. This is not a binary matter. And you may dislike IB romance and feel some things are forced, but it'd seem that the general consensus is that people are happy with Bull and Krem, or how things were handled, even if it wasn't perfect for all. Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawYou go, Patrick.. Your arguments for awareness are 100% inline with work goals, too. ___ Also - we were talking in the context of content created for DA, which also happens to be content created by current Lead Writer for DA. And consensus isn't always right - as anyone who knows recent history would probably agree with. Besides forums like this one aren't the best place to get accurate evaluation of what all players think. Thank you for the Mike Laidlaw Twitter quote. I will read those tweets again with this in mind. I wasn't talking just about this forum and I definitely wasn't talking about "what all players think" (that's not even what consensus means). |
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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August 2016
almostfaceman
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jul 21, 2017 18:16:49 GMT
Mike Laidlaw @ SDCC @mike_Laidlaw What do we call it when Xenon the Antiquarian lets slip a fart? Noble gas.  |
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midnight tea
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Posts: 8,227 Likes: 20,258
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 21, 2017 18:17:33 GMT
Mike Laidlaw @ SDCC @mike_Laidlaw What do we call it when Xenon the Antiquarian lets slip a fart? Noble gas. ... I am definitely stealing that image xD |
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