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Post by opuspace on Aug 6, 2016 4:21:56 GMT
So I saw this picture in Dragon Age confessions:-  I have to say I agree with the confessor about the part where Cassandra strongly believes in her religion but openly dismisses and willing to persecute the other. It was disappointing quite frankly because it is not a positive quality like how Leliana initially viewed Elves in DAO but unlike Leliana (who in fact changes her perception and is pro-Elven 10 years down the line in Inquisition), we could not confront Cassandra and challenge her bigoted perceptions. I personally think Bioware should have had a dialogue option where the Inquisitor converses about what was found in the Temple of Mythal with Cassandra. It would have made for a nice character development moment, to see someone so devout in one religion either become more tolerant or remain bigoted. I brought that up in a different forum, and the posters there were very gracious and understanding. Vanilka summed it up pretty well and I'm grateful to them for helping me see that side of Cassandra in a more positive light. "I was bothered by this, as well. I'd like to have a talk about it because it was, indeed, very hypocritical of her. Because it's not like Andrastians don't have all those Chantries and whatnot. Because it's not like from another faith's perspective, Andrastianism isn't just ridiculous hoghwash, as well... I do love Cassandra and I take it as one of her flaws. One flaw does not define a whole person. So, as much as that one stings (especially since Lavellan is my favourite) and I'd be the first one to call her out on it, Cassandra is still one of my favourite characters out of all BioWare games. I don't think any of the BW characters is absolutely perfect, either. It's probably for better since imperfection is more real. A character you can hold nothing against might very easily end up being rather bland or shallow. This was my problem with Tallis who I felt the writers tried too hard to make me like a lot. (I don't dislike her, but I see it. I see it the entire time.) Cassandra makes mistakes, but I think she also tries hard to do the right thing. Personally, I like to believe she can be steered to do better because her negativity might come from a place of ignorance. (I'm sure at least some of us said things throughout our lives that we now regret because now we know better.) Much like you, I believe that if we were allowed to call her out on it, she might at least consider that what she said was hurtful and unfair. I think that her reaction to the fact that the truth about Ameridan was swept under the carpet proves that, proves that she tries to be just and truth is important to her, regardless of whether it is pleasant or not. That moment I was even more sure I wanted her as my Divine. Either way, we all draw the line somewhere, so I understand" Read more: biowaresocialnetwork.boards.net/thread/43/cassandra-pentaghast-thread-deal#ixzz4GWS3GVWr |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2016 10:36:16 GMT
So I saw this picture in Dragon Age confessions:- *snip* I have to say I agree with the confessor about the part where Cassandra strongly believes in her religion but openly dismisses and willing to persecute the other. It was disappointing quite frankly because it is not a positive quality like how Leliana initially viewed Elves in DAO but unlike Leliana (who in fact changes her perception and is pro-Elven 10 years down the line in Inquisition), we could not confront Cassandra and challenge her bigoted perceptions. I personally think Bioware should have had a dialogue option where the Inquisitor converses about what was found in the Temple of Mythal with Cassandra. It would have made for a nice character development moment, to see someone so devout in one religion either become more tolerant or remain bigoted. I brought that up in a different forum, and the posters there were very gracious and understanding. Vanilka summed it up pretty well and I'm grateful to them for helping me see that side of Cassandra in a more positive light. "I was bothered by this, as well. I'd like to have a talk about it because it was, indeed, very hypocritical of her. Because it's not like Andrastians don't have all those Chantries and whatnot. Because it's not like from another faith's perspective, Andrastianism isn't just ridiculous hoghwash, as well... I do love Cassandra and I take it as one of her flaws. One flaw does not define a whole person. So, as much as that one stings (especially since Lavellan is my favourite) and I'd be the first one to call her out on it, Cassandra is still one of my favourite characters out of all BioWare games. I don't think any of the BW characters is absolutely perfect, either. It's probably for better since imperfection is more real. A character you can hold nothing against might very easily end up being rather bland or shallow. This was my problem with Tallis who I felt the writers tried too hard to make me like a lot. (I don't dislike her, but I see it. I see it the entire time.) Cassandra makes mistakes, but I think she also tries hard to do the right thing. Personally, I like to believe she can be steered to do better because her negativity might come from a place of ignorance. (I'm sure at least some of us said things throughout our lives that we now regret because now we know better.) Much like you, I believe that if we were allowed to call her out on it, she might at least consider that what she said was hurtful and unfair. I think that her reaction to the fact that the truth about Ameridan was swept under the carpet proves that, proves that she tries to be just and truth is important to her, regardless of whether it is pleasant or not. That moment I was even more sure I wanted her as my Divine. Either way, we all draw the line somewhere, so I understand" Read more: biowaresocialnetwork.boards.net/thread/43/cassandra-pentaghast-thread-deal#ixzz4GWS3GVWrI think there is an element of fear in her comments. She's being confronted with evidence that the chantry version of events is fallible. It calls into question her belief system so, like any stubborn warrior, she's doubling down. I like to think that she'll take some time to reflect and come to a more moderate viewpoint. |
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Post by Balsam Beige on Aug 6, 2016 10:40:10 GMT
Love Cass!  After my Inquisitor won her over, the two of them were inseparable.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2016 11:04:23 GMT
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Post by Merela on Aug 6, 2016 11:31:24 GMT
When you post drawings, people, try to add a link to the original artists may it be on Tumblr and Deviantart, maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2016 11:33:29 GMT
When you post drawings, people, try to add a link to the original artists may it be on Tumblr and Deviantart, maybe? Sorry, I was just finding the first thing I saw.  |
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Post by opuspace on Aug 6, 2016 14:08:14 GMT
I think there is an element of fear in her comments. She's being confronted with evidence that the chantry version of events is fallible. It calls into question her belief system so, like any stubborn warrior, she's doubling down. I like to think that she'll take some time to reflect and come to a more moderate viewpoint. True, she and Leliana were definitely going through a crisis of faith. If you listen to her while siding with Varric after she takes a swing at him (Personally, I'd keep it as neutral as possible. Varric IS a little bit at fault) Cassandra starts to ask if the Maker intended to let events happen like the Divine's death and then stops since the concept is too horrifying to contemplate. It's unusual for Cassandra to not retract harsh statements like what she said at the temple of Mythal. She's even said it herself that she's aware that she knows less than nothing so I do believe if spoken to, she'd have apologized for the rudeness. |
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Post by SGT NOOBSTER on Aug 6, 2016 17:09:33 GMT
I think there is an element of fear in her comments. She's being confronted with evidence that the chantry version of events is fallible. It calls into question her belief system so, like any stubborn warrior, she's doubling down. I like to think that she'll take some time to reflect and come to a more moderate viewpoint. True, she and Leliana were definitely going through a crisis of faith. If you listen to her while siding with Varric after she takes a swing at him (Personally, I'd keep it as neutral as possible. Varric IS a little bit at fault) Cassandra starts to ask if the Maker intended to let events happen like the Divine's death and then stops since the concept is too horrifying to contemplate. It's unusual for Cassandra to not retract harsh statements like what she said at the temple of Mythal. She's even said it herself that she's aware that she knows less than nothing so I do believe if spoken to, she'd have apologized for the rudeness. I can agree with both. What she has spent most of her life dedicated to is being completely shaken, and by events that *might* have been preventable. |
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 6, 2016 17:35:09 GMT
I brought that up in a different forum, and the posters there were very gracious and understanding. Vanilka summed it up pretty well and I'm grateful to them for helping me see that side of Cassandra in a more positive light. "I was bothered by this, as well. I'd like to have a talk about it because it was, indeed, very hypocritical of her. Because it's not like Andrastians don't have all those Chantries and whatnot. Because it's not like from another faith's perspective, Andrastianism isn't just ridiculous hoghwash, as well... I do love Cassandra and I take it as one of her flaws. One flaw does not define a whole person. So, as much as that one stings (especially since Lavellan is my favourite) and I'd be the first one to call her out on it, Cassandra is still one of my favourite characters out of all BioWare games. I don't think any of the BW characters is absolutely perfect, either. It's probably for better since imperfection is more real. A character you can hold nothing against might very easily end up being rather bland or shallow. This was my problem with Tallis who I felt the writers tried too hard to make me like a lot. (I don't dislike her, but I see it. I see it the entire time.) Cassandra makes mistakes, but I think she also tries hard to do the right thing. Personally, I like to believe she can be steered to do better because her negativity might come from a place of ignorance. (I'm sure at least some of us said things throughout our lives that we now regret because now we know better.) Much like you, I believe that if we were allowed to call her out on it, she might at least consider that what she said was hurtful and unfair. I think that her reaction to the fact that the truth about Ameridan was swept under the carpet proves that, proves that she tries to be just and truth is important to her, regardless of whether it is pleasant or not. That moment I was even more sure I wanted her as my Divine. Either way, we all draw the line somewhere, so I understand" Read more: biowaresocialnetwork.boards.net/thread/43/cassandra-pentaghast-thread-deal#ixzz4GWS3GVWrI think there is an element of fear in her comments. She's being confronted with evidence that the chantry version of events is fallible. It calls into question her belief system so, like any stubborn warrior, she's doubling down. I like to think that she'll take some time to reflect and come to a more moderate viewpoint. Until she learns there is more fact and actual history to the Chantry accounts then the Elven, and apparently there were no Gods To begin with, just demons and mages. ._. If anything that should make her hardline, Andrastian belief is the only path to salvation. Because all others are false. She has seen the proof. |
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Post by opuspace on Aug 6, 2016 18:19:44 GMT
Until she learns there is more fact and actual history to the Chantry accounts then the Elven, and apparently there were no Gods To begin with, just demons and mages. ._. If anything that should make her hardline, Andrastian belief is the only path to salvation. Because all others are false. She has seen the proof. Eh, that depends on what the believer was looking for. Faith is tricky precisely because it's so ambivalent and can flex according to what followers interpret. The elven "gods" were never a threat to Andrastianism because the nature of the Maker is such that everything can be umbrella'd under his will. Evanuris run amok? The Maker abides, as it's clear one of his farther off children overturned the imposters. On the elven side, it can be handwaved with the excuse that the myths did have truth to it. There WERE teachers who taught the People what they know. Neither disproves the existence of the other, it's more an argument now as to who's more powerful. Sure, some of the myths need revising like who created the Veil but since when did followers take every myth THAT seriously? As for taking offense over Cassandra mocking the temple of Mythal, that's more to do with reciprocal social manners than proving whose beliefs are justified. |
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 6, 2016 18:26:19 GMT
Until she learns there is more fact and actual history to the Chantry accounts then the Elven, and apparently there were no Gods To begin with, just demons and mages. ._. If anything that should make her hardline, Andrastian belief is the only path to salvation. Because all others are false. She has seen the proof. Eh, that depends on what the believer was looking for. Faith is tricky precisely because it's so ambivalent and can flex according to what followers interpret. The elven "gods" were never a threat to Andrastianism because the nature of the Maker is such that everything can be umbrella'd under his will. Evanuris run amok? The Maker abides, as it's clear one of his farther off children overturned the imposters. On the elven side, it can be handwaved with the excuse that the myths did have truth to it. There WERE teachers who taught the People what they know. Neither disproves the existence of the other, it's more an argument now as to who's more powerful. Sure, some of the myths need revising like who created the Veil but since when did followers take every myth THAT seriously? As for taking offense over Cassandra mocking the temple of Mythal, that's more to do with reciprocal social manners than proving whose beliefs are justified. I don't agree with that, I really can't. Some belief deserves censure, some deserves mockery, some deserves outright destruction. Opinions, thoughts, ideals and even culture can be poison, sometimes you have to just suppress it. I made a gag about the Dalish basically being scientologists, and its apt to me, that they buy into basically a hokey sci fi script pumped out by a pedophile who couldn't sell a book to save his life. The Elves are the same, they buy into fiction and call it faith, even if it has merits in actual history, its utter inaccuracy overshadows anything resembling actual respect I could hold for it. Beyond that Cassandra doesn't need to apologize for calling out bullshit. |
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 6, 2016 18:45:09 GMT
Because it hasn't been posted yet.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2016 15:37:33 GMT
I think there is an element of fear in her comments. She's being confronted with evidence that the chantry version of events is fallible. It calls into question her belief system so, like any stubborn warrior, she's doubling down. I like to think that she'll take some time to reflect and come to a more moderate viewpoint. Until she learns there is more fact and actual history to the Chantry accounts then the Elven, and apparently there were no Gods To begin with, just demons and mages. ._. If anything that should make her hardline, Andrastian belief is the only path to salvation. Because all others are false. She has seen the proof. I'm with opuspace. I don't see Andrastianism as any more credible than the elven faith. Learning that aspects of the eleven religion weren't accurate should make any rational person question how accurate their own religion is. Additionally, learning that Andrastians actually suppressed and altered historical records is a big flaming sign that something is wrong with your belief system. To use a real world example, as you did with Scientology, we know that monks that copied the original biblical texts often made alterations to the text either from innocent error or to change the text to support a belief. |
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Post by opuspace on Aug 7, 2016 16:55:57 GMT
Until she learns there is more fact and actual history to the Chantry accounts then the Elven, and apparently there were no Gods To begin with, just demons and mages. ._. If anything that should make her hardline, Andrastian belief is the only path to salvation. Because all others are false. She has seen the proof. I'm with opuspace. I don't see Andrastianism as any more credible than the elven faith. Learning that aspects of the eleven religion weren't accurate should make any rational person question how accurate their own religion is. Additionally, learning that Andrastians actually suppressed and altered historical records is a big flaming sign that something is wrong with your belief system. To use a real world example, as you did with Scientology, we know that monks that copied the original biblical texts often made alterations to the text either from innocent error or to change the text to support a belief. I think Cole does say something to Solas that implies the Maker is real. In the banter, he mentions that "he's very far away" which supports the detached position the Maker takes. Is the Maker a spirit who manifested from the overwhelming amount of Andrastians? I'd be surprised if there wasn't. I wonder whether the Maker would ever intervene though. As for the Evanuris, I don't think it's a good idea to continue to worship something that bloody, that destructive. The Elves don't know the full truth, they've instilled a more benign view where they believe they were taught by the gods to take care of their family and people. To continue to worship and follow though with Solas' information of someone like Falon'din? Now you're stepping into dangerous territory. But then, I question why does anyone need an outside entity to dictate their morals. It's fellow people who respond and receive the brunt of your actions. |
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 7, 2016 19:04:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2016 20:29:55 GMT
I'm with opuspace. I don't see Andrastianism as any more credible than the elven faith. Learning that aspects of the eleven religion weren't accurate should make any rational person question how accurate their own religion is. Additionally, learning that Andrastians actually suppressed and altered historical records is a big flaming sign that something is wrong with your belief system. To use a real world example, as you did with Scientology, we know that monks that copied the original biblical texts often made alterations to the text either from innocent error or to change the text to support a belief. I think Cole does say something to Solas that implies the Maker is real. In the banter, he mentions that "he's very far away" which supports the detached position the Maker takes. Is the Maker a spirit who manifested from the overwhelming amount of Andrastians? I'd be surprised if there wasn't. I wonder whether the Maker would ever intervene though. As for the Evanuris, I don't think it's a good idea to continue to worship something that bloody, that destructive. The Elves don't know the full truth, they've instilled a more benign view where they believe they were taught by the gods to take care of their family and people. To continue to worship and follow though with Solas' information of someone like Falon'din? Now you're stepping into dangerous territory. But then, I question why does anyone need an outside entity to dictate their morals. It's fellow people who respond and receive the brunt of your actions. I don't think I've heard that banter from Cole. Interesting. It sort of confirms that a creator exists but doesn't really tell us much about the creator's nature. For all we know, it could be another powerful spirit from the fade much like the Evanuris only more powerful. We've gotten much closer to the truth regarding the Elves religion and have only scratched the surface of Andratainism. We know that the chantry conceals and alters information so we can't really trust their version of events. Hopefully, we'll get more revelations that bring down the faith in DA4.  With the Evanuris, fade spirits, titans and the rest, I suspect the real version of events is much more interesting than the Chantry version. |
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 8, 2016 23:12:57 GMT
According to Bioware the Maker is either
A. Everything the Chantry has said basically. The creator, the beginning and the end, a capital letter G God. Basically picture any of the major Eastern faiths I suppose if you want comparison, crafted the realms both material and ethereal.
Or there is the other alternative.
B. Doesn't exist.
So either Cassandra is right in her belief, or wrong.
Its a coin toss.
50/50 is better odds then most when it comes to religion I think.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 9, 2016 0:17:27 GMT
According to Bioware the Maker is either A. Everything the Chantry has said basically. The creator, the beginning and the end, a capital letter G God. Basically picture any of the major Eastern faiths I suppose if you want comparison, crafted the realms both material and ethereal. Or there is the other alternative. B. Doesn't exist. So either Cassandra is right in her belief, or wrong. Its a coin toss. 50/50 is better odds then most when it comes to religion I think. That's a fair assessment. Does it matter in the event that the Maker does exist that he be worshipped? |
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 9, 2016 11:03:48 GMT
According to Bioware the Maker is either A. Everything the Chantry has said basically. The creator, the beginning and the end, a capital letter G God. Basically picture any of the major Eastern faiths I suppose if you want comparison, crafted the realms both material and ethereal. Or there is the other alternative. B. Doesn't exist. So either Cassandra is right in her belief, or wrong. Its a coin toss. 50/50 is better odds then most when it comes to religion I think. That's a fair assessment. Does it matter in the event that the Maker does exist that he be worshipped? Uh. Probably not I'd suspect. A God, a omnipotent one anyway requires little. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 16:36:46 GMT
According to Bioware the Maker is either A. Everything the Chantry has said basically. The creator, the beginning and the end, a capital letter G God. Basically picture any of the major Eastern faiths I suppose if you want comparison, crafted the realms both material and ethereal. Or there is the other alternative. B. Doesn't exist. So either Cassandra is right in her belief, or wrong. Its a coin toss. 50/50 is better odds then most when it comes to religion I think. Do you have a link to what Bioware said about the Maker? I'd be surprised if they said that either the maker doesn't exist or everything the Chantry says about the Maker is true. They've already let us know that the Chantry is spreading some falsehoods. I Would like to read it but no big deal if you don't remember where you saw it. Religious belief can't really be boiled down to a Pascal's Wager argument. The existence of a god isn't a 50/50 proposition even in the real world. Cassandra's beliefs can be entirely true, not true at all, or some of her beliefs could be true while others aren't. For example, it could be true that a maker exists but it is another powerful fade spirit but not an all-powerful god. So, her belief in a creator is true while her beliefs about the nature of the creator are false. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 16:37:16 GMT
According to Bioware the Maker is either A. Everything the Chantry has said basically. The creator, the beginning and the end, a capital letter G God. Basically picture any of the major Eastern faiths I suppose if you want comparison, crafted the realms both material and ethereal. Or there is the other alternative. B. Doesn't exist. So either Cassandra is right in her belief, or wrong. Its a coin toss. 50/50 is better odds then most when it comes to religion I think. Do you have a link to what Bioware said about the Maker? I'd be surprised if they said that either the maker doesn't exist or everything the Chantry says about the Maker is true. They've already let us know that the Chantry is spreading some falsehoods. I would like to read it but no big deal if you don't remember where you saw it. Religious belief can't really be boiled down to a Pascal's Wager argument. The existence of a god isn't a 50/50 proposition even in the real world. Cassandra's beliefs can be entirely true, not true at all, or some of her beliefs could be true while others aren't. For example, it could be true that a maker exists but it is another powerful fade spirit and not an all-powerful god. So, her belief in a creator is true while her beliefs about the nature of the creator are false. |
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Post by masterwarderz on Aug 10, 2016 17:07:42 GMT
According to Bioware the Maker is either A. Everything the Chantry has said basically. The creator, the beginning and the end, a capital letter G God. Basically picture any of the major Eastern faiths I suppose if you want comparison, crafted the realms both material and ethereal. Or there is the other alternative. B. Doesn't exist. So either Cassandra is right in her belief, or wrong. Its a coin toss. 50/50 is better odds then most when it comes to religion I think. Do you have a link to what Bioware said about the Maker? I'd be surprised if they said that either the maker doesn't exist or everything the Chantry says about the Maker is true. They've already let us know that the Chantry is spreading some falsehoods. I Would like to read it but no big deal if you don't remember where you saw it. Religious belief can't really be boiled down to a Pascal's Wager argument. The existence of a god isn't a 50/50 proposition even in the real world. Cassandra's beliefs can be entirely true, not true at all, or some of her beliefs could be true while others aren't. For example, it could be true that a maker exists but it is another powerful fade spirit but not an all-powerful god. So, her belief in a creator is true while her beliefs about the nature of the creator are false. Ugh, I'd really have to dig. Its a Gaider era thing from DAO. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 17:10:18 GMT
Do you have a link to what Bioware said about the Maker? I'd be surprised if they said that either the maker doesn't exist or everything the Chantry says about the Maker is true. They've already let us know that the Chantry is spreading some falsehoods. I Would like to read it but no big deal if you don't remember where you saw it. Religious belief can't really be boiled down to a Pascal's Wager argument. The existence of a god isn't a 50/50 proposition even in the real world. Cassandra's beliefs can be entirely true, not true at all, or some of her beliefs could be true while others aren't. For example, it could be true that a maker exists but it is another powerful fade spirit but not an all-powerful god. So, her belief in a creator is true while her beliefs about the nature of the creator are false. Ugh, I'd really have to dig. Its a Gaider era thing from DAO. No worries!  |
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With the Evanuris, fade spirits, titans and the rest, I suspect the real version of events is much more interesting than the Chantry version.