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Post by Lady Artifice on Mar 25, 2017 14:12:48 GMT
It seemed silly to me too, and even more so because of how limited your options are. Exile as a punishment seems foolish, because that's already a dangerous fragment of your own people. It doesn't take the most genre savvy character out there to imagine how that might come back to bite you. It seemed like one of the RP attempts to create an illusion of extreme moral choice, with one of them being pragmatic and the other being hard-lined.
Too bad both of them end up actually seeming self-destructive instead.
I think it would have been good to be able to adjust the ruling to attempted murder, and then sentence him to supervised labor.
Which is what he ends up having to do anyway, just without any kind of stain on his record.
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Post by CTPhipps on Mar 25, 2017 23:22:47 GMT
If I were to have done it, I would have made it a case of Inquisitor Judgement.
Tann: Well, he's guilty of attempted murder than murder but that presents it's own problems.
Ryder: How so?
Tann: Well, the law book we brought with us was designed for functioning Arks, colonies, and Nexus. The sentence for attempted murder is ten years in our prison cubes, however for every meal that guy has, it'll be one less for everyone else at this point in our journey. There's some alternative punishments but they each have their downsides. Cryo-freezing him for his sentence, exile, execution, and forcing him to work off his sentence.
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 26, 2017 12:13:36 GMT
I think it was pretty obvious that exiling him was just to save face for the director and the Initiative. And I don't swing that way. I don't think attempted murder is an offense worthy of exile anyway. Or anything really. So if somebody walked up to you, shot you, missed and was then tackled by somebody else, you would see them go free? No, I would lock them up for atempted murder. But that wasn't an option now, was it? I either had to exile him for a crime he did not commit, or let him go.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 26, 2017 13:10:11 GMT
...?
Locking him up is not an option. The Nexus does not have the resources to maintain a prison.
The options presented were adequate and there was no clear cut choice. The fact that it pissed some of you off goes to show how a strong a reaction this must have evoked. Having no "clear" option is how choices should be.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2017 14:16:17 GMT
I have interpreted it as an attempted murder with extenuating circumstances, and exile seemed like an appropriate punishment for it in frontier setting. If he did commit a murder of his superior,p officer, he would have to be executed, but the game did not give that option, so I think you already are presented with an attempted murder, rather than murder and conspiracy to mutiny. Pardoning him was not an option at all for me, because it's not about his shot hitting the mark or not. He cannot be a member of the frontier group in survival curcumstances, he is a huge liability and cannot be allowed to be able to tell his story of how he disobeyed his superior, shot him and was allowed to go free.
I agree that the quest should have had more outcomes. Execute, exile, and pardon.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Mar 26, 2017 14:31:45 GMT
...? Locking him up is not an option. The Nexus does not have the resources to maintain a prison. The options presented were adequate and there was no clear cut choice. The fact that it pissed some of you off goes to show how a strong a reaction this must have evoked. Having no "clear" option is how choices should be. Yes us being annoyed that the quest was badly written really means it was well written because we care!
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 26, 2017 14:50:39 GMT
...? Locking him up is not an option. The Nexus does not have the resources to maintain a prison. The options presented were adequate and there was no clear cut choice. The fact that it pissed some of you off goes to show how a strong a reaction this must have evoked. Having no "clear" option is how choices should be. Yes us being annoyed that the quest was badly written really means it was well written because we care! The only badly written things in this thread are people's attempts to make this mission something bigger than it really is. You were asked to follow up on an investigation. You chose to follow up on an investigation. You investigated. It was shown that the accused was no the perpetrator but had intended to do it regardless. You can choose to follow the written law or release him on account of extenuating circumstances (suicide mission) You can choose to follow the spirit of the law and exile him on account of extenuating circumstances (situation on Nexus) Consequences ensue It seems like a pretty tight chain of events. I don't see where it qualifies as objectively bad writing. There is a premise, investigation, and a conclusion that all follow from one another. There are no detours. No lefts or rights. X -> Y -> Z with plenty of context from discussions and logs. Some appeals to pathos is included (stressed wife, station morale). All this for a mission that takes less than 5 minutes in total. So it appears then that people's conclusion of "bad writing" stems entirely from the culmination of the mission as a result of two choices being presented. ....except there are literally only two possible states. On or off the ship. There are no other possible states. On of off. There's no half-on. There's no half-off. There's no all shades in between. That's the state of the Nexus that has been established. There are no resources for complicated middle-grounds like jail. You can either release him from prison or keep him there to be exiled. Either way he's on or off the ship. If he's on he gets punished with community service and lives with his choices (wife leaves him). If he's off the ship he's off the system. Of course people were also quick to call this "limited" or a "contrived moral choice" when in reality it's just the result of there only being two possible states in that scenario. On or off.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Mar 26, 2017 14:59:42 GMT
Yes us being annoyed that the quest was badly written really means it was well written because we care! The only badly written things in this thread are people's attempts to make this mission something bigger than it really is. You were asked to follow up on an investigation. You chose to follow up on an investigation. You investigated. It was shown that the accused was no the perpetrator but had intended to do it regardless. You can choose to follow the written law or release him on account of extenuating circumstances (suicide mission) You can choose to follow the spirit of the law and exile him on account of extenuating circumstances (situation on Nexus) Consequences ensue It seems like a pretty tight chain of events. I don't see where it qualifies as objectively bad writing. There is a premise, investigation, and a conclusion that all follow from one another. It also seems that people are mostly fixating on the final two choices. Of course people were also quick to call this "limited" or a "contrived moral choice". ....except there are literally only two possible states. On or off the ship. There are no other possible states. You can either release him from prison or keep him there to be exiled. Either way he's on or off the ship. If he's on he gets punished with community service and lives with his choices (wife leaves him). If he's off the ship he's an exile. Do you want some overly complicated solution to make you sleep better at night? Wow. I don't actually have an issue with the "those are the only two options" approach if it was done well, but it wasn't. It did not explain why you only had two choices, it didn't even attempt to acknowledge that the player may prefer to do something else. You don't get to find out if he will be punished if you choose not to exile him for example. This is completely ignoring the fact that you don't get to investigate anything during the quest, it's essentially a go here listen to dialogue, go there listen to more dialogue quest. Which means the dialogue should at least be interesting and informative when it comes to the story of the quest and how it ties into the political climate on the nexus. This doesn't happen tho, it is bare bones writing.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 26, 2017 15:02:48 GMT
Wow. I don't actually have an issue with the "those are the only two options" approach if it was done well, but it wasn't. It did not explain why you only had two choices, it didn't even attempt to acknowledge that the player may prefer to do something else. You don't get to find out if he will be punished if you choose not to exile him for example. This is completely ignoring the fact that you don't get to investigate anything during the quest, it's essentially a go here listen to dialogue, go there listen to more dialogue quest. Which means the dialogue should at least be interesting and informative when it comes to the story of the quest and how it ties into the political climate on the nexus. This doesn't happen tho, it is bare bones writing. What is this magical something else? There is literally no other option. On or off the ship. How difficult is that concept to grasp? You also had PLENTY of context from discussions to testimonials to logs. Even appeals to pathos. All this for a 5 minute mission chain that is at best tangential to the plot. The Pathfinder was given the choice. That was your preference. Did you want a "fill your own choice" or something? This is a video game, not a fanfic. And you DO find out the consequences. Go to the cryo bay. He's asking to be returned to stasis because his wife left him. Did you want to check his logs to see if he's enjoying picking up trash?
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Post by sky on Mar 26, 2017 15:07:36 GMT
It's attempted murder. He actually shot at the guy. That he missed does not take away from the fact that he tried to commit murder. Fact is, if the guy can take a shot at his friend is he safe around people he likes less? Sure, if you look at it in a legal, black and white standpoint. But there is more to the story as others have pointed out, and he ended up saving a lot of lives. He didn't just shoot at him because he didn't like him, he disagreed with his decision. I don't have a huge problem with Tann's reaction either, he's a simple guy who couldn't make the decision, so I knew he was going to whine either way (i tried both outcomes). I also didn't see it as paragon/renegade or good/evil... because if you let him go, Tann says something like i hope we don't regret this decision etc. I guess technically he could go on to murder someone else but obviously hope not.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Mar 26, 2017 15:25:14 GMT
Wow. I don't actually have an issue with the "those are the only two options" approach if it was done well, but it wasn't. It did not explain why you only had two choices, it didn't even attempt to acknowledge that the player may prefer to do something else. You don't get to find out if he will be punished if you choose not to exile him for example. This is completely ignoring the fact that you don't get to investigate anything during the quest, it's essentially a go here listen to dialogue, go there listen to more dialogue quest. Which means the dialogue should at least be interesting and informative when it comes to the story of the quest and how it ties into the political climate on the nexus. This doesn't happen tho, it is bare bones writing. What is this magical something else? There is literally no other option. On or off the ship. How difficult is that concept to grasp? You also had PLENTY of context from discussions to testimonials to logs. Even appeals to pathos. All this for a 5 minute mission chain that is at best tangential to the plot. The Pathfinder was given the choice. That was your preference. Did you want a "fill your own choice" or something? This is a video game, not a fanfic. And you DO find out the consequences. Go to the cryo bay. He's asking to be returned to stasis because his wife left him. Did you want to check his logs to see if he's enjoying picking up trash? Maybe try reading what you are responding to before responding mate, I just said I didn't have an issue with that approach. No, you do not get told BEFORE making the decision that he will still be punished, you do not get an explanation as to why he can't be imprisoned. There isn't really much in the way of insight into how the legal system on the nexus works and why there is a dilemma here at all. They were obviously going for the idea that this ruling of exile was symbolic and legitimised the authority of the Nexus's leadership but that was not translated very well into the actual quest. This leads to issues like mine when I am thinking my character made one choice but they actually made a different choice and I just hadn't been informed properly of this until afterwards. So again, please read my posts if you are going to argue with them if you are happy with that quest then good for you but do not try and turn my criticism into something it is not just because you dislike criticism of something you like, it's childish.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 26, 2017 15:34:28 GMT
I mean, attempted murder is totally a thing since that's pretty much your justification for exiling him. I didn't find the reaction to be too out of line once I made the choice- what happens if you exonerate him? His wife leaves him, and he requests to go back into cryo because he is seen as a pariah on the Nexus.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Mar 26, 2017 16:58:59 GMT
Yes us being annoyed that the quest was badly written really means it was well written because we care! The only badly written things in this thread are people's attempts to make this mission something bigger than it really is. You were asked to follow up on an investigation. You chose to follow up on an investigation. You investigated. It was shown that the accused was no the perpetrator but had intended to do it regardless. You can choose to follow the written law or release him on account of extenuating circumstances (suicide mission) You can choose to follow the spirit of the law and exile him on account of extenuating circumstances (situation on Nexus) Consequences ensue It seems like a pretty tight chain of events. I don't see where it qualifies as objectively bad writing. There is a premise, investigation, and a conclusion that all follow from one another. There are no detours. No lefts or rights. X -> Y -> Z with plenty of context from discussions and logs. Some appeals to pathos is included (stressed wife, station morale). All this for a mission that takes less than 5 minutes in total. So it appears then that people's conclusion of "bad writing" stems entirely from the culmination of the mission as a result of two choices being presented. ....except there are literally only two possible states. On or off the ship. There are no other possible states. On of off. There's no half-on. There's no half-off. There's no all shades in between. That's the state of the Nexus that has been established. There are no resources for complicated middle-grounds like jail. You can either release him from prison or keep him there to be exiled. Either way he's on or off the ship. If he's on he gets punished with community service and lives with his choices (wife leaves him). If he's off the ship he's off the system. Of course people were also quick to call this "limited" or a "contrived moral choice" when in reality it's just the result of there only being two possible states in that scenario. On or off. It's not just about the limited options. The verbal reactions from characters like Tann and the suspect suggest that's a common belief that attempted murder just isn't a punishable offense, that unless your attempt is successful there's no rightful consequences. If this is really a thing among Turians or Salarians, or just the citadel races in general, it's odd that none of the humans ever tries to recognize that disparity. No one ever considers it a legal course to alter the charges against him, which is actually pretty corrupt. Either we're punishing him for false charges, or not applying any murder related criminal charges at all. For my part, I was largely okay with the second option, which led to Tann giving him labor. That seems like a wise course, because you're still making use of a resource and it's way more humane than exile. The problem wasn't the options, it was that we set a precedent for a corrupt legal system with everyone acting as though that's just how things are supposed to work.
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Post by Croatsky on Mar 26, 2017 17:15:27 GMT
I think it is a silly oversight on writers part.
I personally let him go on community service, because officers that do suicidal orders out of ego are much worse then violating command structure.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 26, 2017 17:30:43 GMT
Despite what I said about how I viewed it, I also put him on community service. Then again, I'm also colonizing near the Exiles and have made peace with them.
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Post by palker4 on Mar 26, 2017 18:29:17 GMT
...? Locking him up is not an option. The Nexus does not have the resources to maintain a prison. The options presented were adequate and there was no clear cut choice. The fact that it pissed some of you off goes to show how a strong a reaction this must have evoked. Having no "clear" option is how choices should be. The problem is not the exile but the fact that you exile him for MURDER instead of ATTEMPTED MURDER, hiding the evidence that he did not commit the murder and just going yep our wise masters were right all along. I just came to the end of the quest and alt tabed to come here to complain. I want to exile him but i do not want to play into administrators lies and i cannot do that and that pisses me off. After five years i would assume they had enough time to write such an obvious thing but i guess i was spoiled by Tyranny and Torment and other well written games that came between ME3 and MEA.
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Post by argentus on Mar 26, 2017 19:58:34 GMT
Seriously, who wrote the ending to this quest? You find out he didn't kill the Chief but it's basically a "renegade" choice to exile him anyway. Did a first year intern sealed in a bubble write this? Is the law in Canuckistan like that? "Oh, I tried to kill you but failed...so no jail for me". /rant i was worried about it at first but chose to "Free" because exile isn't really a practical choice in the situation, and Tann mentioned he'd be doing community service for "his part in the chaos" which I took as close enough to punishment for the attempted murder. especially since the Nexus can't really afford to be jailing people much. its either get to work or get out.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 26, 2017 20:55:16 GMT
I see. It's not the outcome but the classification of the crime that is the problem, namely attempted murder.
This is the first murder case, so it's very much political. Grey areas like attempted murder aren't easy to deal with, especially when it can prove to be a PR shit storm. This is especially true given the context of the situation.
The fact of the matter is that this was a justifiable (or not) offense. This was self-preservation.
By exiling him, you make the same decision as murder. He's out.
By releasing him, you admit that it was justified.
At least that's what you could reason. Another player might have their own reason
The point is, the distinction is pointless.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 26, 2017 20:57:43 GMT
I personally released him because he did not actually kill the person, was operating under extenuating circumstances, and figured he'd deal with the fallout himself once the truth got out.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 26, 2017 23:56:49 GMT
What is this magical something else? There is literally no other option. On or off the ship. How difficult is that concept to grasp? You also had PLENTY of context from discussions to testimonials to logs. Even appeals to pathos. All this for a 5 minute mission chain that is at best tangential to the plot. The Pathfinder was given the choice. That was your preference. Did you want a "fill your own choice" or something? This is a video game, not a fanfic. And you DO find out the consequences. Go to the cryo bay. He's asking to be returned to stasis because his wife left him. Did you want to check his logs to see if he's enjoying picking up trash? Maybe try reading what you are responding to before responding mate, I just said I didn't have an issue with that approach. No, you do not get told BEFORE making the decision that he will still be punished, you do not get an explanation as to why he can't be imprisoned. There isn't really much in the way of insight into how the legal system on the nexus works and why there is a dilemma here at all. They were obviously going for the idea that this ruling of exile was symbolic and legitimised the authority of the Nexus's leadership but that was not translated very well into the actual quest. This leads to issues like mine when I am thinking my character made one choice but they actually made a different choice and I just hadn't been informed properly of this until afterwards. So again, please read my posts if you are going to argue with them if you are happy with that quest then good for you but do not try and turn my criticism into something it is not just because you dislike criticism of something you like, it's childish. I thought it was explained pretty well. Considering that they were constantly worried about their reputation at the moment which was hanging by a thread.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Mar 27, 2017 0:00:53 GMT
Maybe try reading what you are responding to before responding mate, I just said I didn't have an issue with that approach. No, you do not get told BEFORE making the decision that he will still be punished, you do not get an explanation as to why he can't be imprisoned. There isn't really much in the way of insight into how the legal system on the nexus works and why there is a dilemma here at all. They were obviously going for the idea that this ruling of exile was symbolic and legitimised the authority of the Nexus's leadership but that was not translated very well into the actual quest. This leads to issues like mine when I am thinking my character made one choice but they actually made a different choice and I just hadn't been informed properly of this until afterwards. So again, please read my posts if you are going to argue with them if you are happy with that quest then good for you but do not try and turn my criticism into something it is not just because you dislike criticism of something you like, it's childish. I thought it was explained pretty well. Considering that they were constantly worried about their reputation at the moment which was hanging by a thread. Then how come I was unaware he would get community service if I didn't exile him? How come I was unable to ask about the punishment for things like attempted murder and lying to authorities? Did I miss part of the quest or was it simply not there?
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Post by smilesja on Mar 27, 2017 0:23:17 GMT
I though that Turian commander mentioned something about community service..... Or was it Tann. Any who as mentioned above It was about saving face for the Initiative. I'm not sure that the attempted murder was going to sit well with people.
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Post by Zatche on Mar 27, 2017 2:35:40 GMT
I think it is a silly oversight on writers part. I personally let him go on community service, because officers that do suicidal orders out of ego are much worse then violating command structure.
Yeah, same. I thought it was interesting that the moral choice was framed around Tann's focus on "how does this make us look?" But it seemed silly because the murder vs attempted murder discovery didn't change how I felt about the situation. I felt like the moral question shouldn't have been "do we tell everyone he actually missed or not", but "does the fact that the victim's death actually saved lives vindicate the murderer?"
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Post by kastrenzo on Mar 27, 2017 4:09:26 GMT
I jumped on the Vetra fanboy train for this game, and I admit I started to show some bias to Shithead turians when I shouldn't have.
I felt bad for Nilkin's wife, not him. so I let him free.
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December 2016
croatsky
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
CroGamer002
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Post by Croatsky on Mar 27, 2017 8:58:18 GMT
I think it is a silly oversight on writers part. I personally let him go on community service, because officers that do suicidal orders out of ego are much worse then violating command structure.
Yeah, same. I thought it was interesting that the moral choice was framed around Tann's focus on "how does this make us look?" But it seemed silly because the murder vs attempted murder discovery didn't change how I felt about the situation. I felt like the moral question shouldn't have been "do we tell everyone he actually missed or not", but "does the fact that the victim's death actually saved lives vindicate the murderer?"
That and from what I learned a lot from WW1 and WW2 history, terrible leadership based on commander's ego from leading small unit to every army on front will lead to pointless deaths and defeats. I really wished they framed it more like you said, as a major notice to every other officer to not do this shit in future. But still putting the ( attempted) murderer under some disciplinary action, just not jail nor exile.
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