Not curing the Genophage: The reason you're a heartless monster.

If the Reaper War went on for an extended period we'd probably lose anyway, but it wouldn't really be a mutually exclusive choice of which species would be better to fight the Reapers, we'd all have to. We'd have to raise humans to fight same as Krogan over their decades long maturity cycle. There would just be more Krogan available to fight. The Krogan reproductive rate seemed important enough to target when they fought the rebellion, so it would probably be an asset when fighting the Reapers as well.

Just want to point out that Wrex and Weave are part of the same process of the Krogan moving past the Genophage. Wrex is uniting the Krogan on Tuchanka cooperatively (maybe coercively), Weave is dominating. But they are dealing with their situation, they all just would rather get rid of the Genophage. Since it was a bioweapon used to defeat them, symbolically, that's probably never going to change, even if the other races judged Krogan society at a state to handle a cure.

I'm also leery of the Leviathan.  That want to dominate us, they have the power of indoctrination, and they're technologically superior to every other race that has ever existed.  They aren't our friends and have no desire to be another other than our masters.  The Leviathans are actually a pretty good case for Control because the power of the Reapers might be the only thing that could keep them from taking over.  OTOH, maybe they went to Andromeda.  

This is a fact about the whole situation; The genophage are NEVER cured. (this is a fact of life and medical science btw; there's no such thing as a cure.)

Mordin and Padok Wilks don't have the time to mess around with the existing genophage strain and the modified genophage strain in all Krogan population. (Its the first thing they said when you talk to them in the medbay)

The genophage cure is just a mutagen that prevent genophage-gene activation in pregnant Krogan females that allow viable pregnancy. Basically, a shortcut solution and it causes an acquired immunodeficiency (the cause of Eve's death without Maelon's data). Any pregnancy in the population with the genophage strain (which already reduces both male and female capabilities to give fertile eggs and sperm) is already the result of the small percentage that the genophage allowed. Mordin's genophage modification project simply introduce a gene sequence that activate during fetal development and prevent formation of nervous system. Hence, even if only a small percentage of Krogan females have successful pregnancy, large percentage of them are stillbirth.

In simple term; there's 1000 krogan females with genophage, only 100 of those females are pregnant, only 1 krogan female have her baby born alive. That's 99 of pregnant krogan females who suffered through stillbirth.

Fetal nervous system development occurs through the entire duration of fetal development period. Because of Krogan's biology and the genophage strain's complexity, I don't know at what stage that the genophage affect the child but according to Eve, she only found out that she's infertile after she gave birth during her first pregnancy. Therefore, the term "Fertile Female" in this context meant Krogan mothers who gave live birth.

And the natural lifespan of a krogan was a thousand years. If a small percentage results in pregnancy, this mean a krogan pair could spend centuries trying to have a child and even with successful pregnancy, there's high chance for the baby to be born dead than alive. Why do you think Eve said its common for krogan female to choose suicide?

This is EDI's unedited line about the genophage.

EDI: Checks are complete. It is good you came by. I have questions about the genophage.
Joker: You and everyone else.
Shepard: What do you need, EDI?
EDI: A krogan female of breeding age can produce clutches of up to 1000 fertilized eggs over the course of a year. There are over one billion females on Tuchanka. If even one percent become fully fertile, they can birth ten billion infants. That creates close to Earth's population in a very short time. I want to know if you have considered how dangerous this is.
Shepard: Maybe the krogan can limit their breeding rate.
EDI: Breeding laws have reduced populations among humans and salarians. There is no evidence that they work among krogan. The krogan are willing to fight and die for one child today. A larger clutch is an even better payoff, genetically.
Shepard: On Earth, bugs have a lot of young, too. Most of them die.
EDI: The attrition rate would naturally be high, but the state has an interest in keeping the children alive for warfare purposes. It is likely there would be many adoptions in the first few years. It would be prestigious to raise part of the new generation.
Shepard: There's going to be casualties, taking back the homeworlds.
EDI: That is true, but this war could last years. I encourage you to think of what a ten percent fertility rate could do over a decade.
Shepard: We'll figure something out.
EDI: Please do. By the end of the war, there may not be enough soldiers left from Council species to control the krogan at all.


However, these are the ending slides


I don't see a thousand of baby krogan per parent. Or a thousand krogan babies popping out from the ground.

And 'eggs' doesn't necessarily mean chicken eggs. It could be ovum cells or follicles. I could say : "A human female of breeding age can produce up to one to two million egg follicles over the course of a lifetime." Does this mean other alien races could decide to sterilize all human races because of this possibility that all of these eggs could be fertilized?

And the only ones who have most to worry about the Krogan expansion was the Salarian and Asari. Two races who were responsible for uplifting the krogan to fight during the Rachni War. If you read the rebellion codex closer, the conflict is much bigger than just krogan being violent. Its regional control, the krogan began to populate council spaces. Due to Krogan natural lifespan and explosive birth rate after they migrated out of their system, the Salarian and Asari began to fear of losing their territories to these krogans and losing their dominance in galactic politics. The Krogan are one of the oldest races in Citadel Spaces and have been living with them for centuries even before the rebellion. Why do you think the Salarian choose to cull their numbers instead of banishing them to the Traverse and Terminus like they did with other races including humans. Why do they still need the Krogan and allow them in council space even after the genophage? 

Also humans are just as invasive as the krogan.

They only treat the Krogan as canon fodders during the Rachni War and supposedly, it was desperate measures prior to their discovery of the Turian Empire. The Turians are already within their Space Age even during the Asari's discovery of the Citadel and have all the military capabilities. But even in post-Rachni War, the Salarians should have considered helping the Krogan rebuild their homeworld and help them transition as there's centuries between the end of Rachni Wars and the beginning of Krogan Rebellion. Instead they simply craft up a sterile plague for the krogan without any attempt of thinking about the consequences. And I never agree with the idea of killing the future generation just for the sake of controlling a population. (fictional or real life)

For me, its highly ironic that Mordin/Padok Wiks ended up solving the Krogan issues through the genophage cure itself. The major problem caused by the krogan expansion was really just their natural 1000-years lifespan and biology which rivaled the Asari. Even with the mutagen, pregnancies are still rare and of course, not all krogan females want to be pregnant even if they're fertile. The existing genophage which reduces probability of fertilization in both male and female Krogan but because of the mutagen ALL krogan are immunocompromised. This is very significant to me since its like give everyone AIDS even for the folks who don't want to get pregnant.

I find its fascinating that the Asari casually extricate themselves from the larger issues when the root of everything  was the Rachni invasion on the council space which are dominantly Asari's territories. I suppose the Asari didn't like the competition of another race who could live as long as they are....

Oh, and EDI assumed the krogan females to be fully fertile as they were pre-Genophage... which is still never the case since every Krogan with the genophage cure still have the original and modified genophage in their DNA. The 'cure' didn't do anything to the genes that reduce the krogan fertility and probability across population. 

It's funny that Weekes wrote both Mordin and EDI. I'll give him credit for trying to present those sides. I just wish what Kindregan did in ME2 was left in as well. Almost all of his stuff was abandoned.


I just finished the Okeer mission again btw. That dude's a poet lol. "Let a thousand die in a clutch......He will be stronger than the collective power of all the phantom siblings that would have been at his flank.."

I remember that convo. I guess I make a habit of talking to joker after every main mission (been doing that since ME1). You'll run into it that way eventually.

The problem with the Genophage is that as a goal it is unsustainable, and if maintained, when it eventually ends, the galaxy will have a powerful new faction that is does not trust it and is probably pretty antagonistic. If the goal of the Genophage is Krogan population control, then if their society doesn't change to the Council's satisfaction (as I said earlier, its been in place for 1000 years, has been cured twice already and their society hasn't changed), and Wrex or Wreav unite the clans on Tuchanka and focuses on breeding, then their population would grow. If the Krogan start creating clones (Blue Sun's facility in ME2 and Saren's research facility in ME1), or research the Genophage and find another "cure", their population would grow. Since the Salarian/Council's goal is to control the Krogan population, then they would have to deploy another Genophage. The Council and players can couch this in any euphemistic term that they like, but to the Krogan it an ongoing attack on their civilian population, essentially acts of war. No nation state would accept this kind of behavior from a foreign actor, the only response would be a counterattack.

The option given to Shepard to end the Genophage is an opportunity to end this escalation - the Krogan end the Genophage with the help of one of the Council races. This means that they end it on their terms, and they do it as part of the Council community. An opportunity like this may present itself in the future, but it will be after this gross betrayal that takes place in ME3.

The context of the Reaper invasion doesn't really make the argument for the Krogan joining the fight with the Genophage much better. I understand your argument that they are as threatened as everyone else, and should realize that they need to join no matter their circumstance. But they would be joining from an ally-imposed weakened position - the situation is that the Krogan know that there is a workable cure being withheld. Every other race is making themselves as strong as possible to win the fight and allow them to salvage and rebuild their civilization, but, the Krogan race would be fighting, purposefully, from a weakened position. Its not really a situation conducive to trust or cooperation. From their position, post betrayal, I can easily see their logic of letting the other races go fight this war because they have their own problems, and really can't trust the other factions not to stab them in the back.

PS. Why is it a mutually exclusive decision between the Krogan and the Rachni? Why not get both? I get both.

It's not a workable cure at the start, only after directing all available resources towards it does the cure become workable; resources that could very well have been used elsewhere. Even then, the fact that the deployment of said cure becomes the ultimate for Krogan support is madness in the face of the encroaching invasion. Okay, so the Salarians are holding the foundations of a potential cure secret, have them work to develop and then deploy the cure as quickly as they can in a way that doesn't jeopardize the fate of the entire galaxy. 

You say that the galaxy needs to work on trust and cooperation in this situation, but what about the Krogan? Are they supposed to get a free pass for twiddling their thumbs waiting for the cure because they have been mistreated in the past? If the cure was being worked on behind the scenes, why wouldn't Wrex/Wreve accept the galaxy's promise to cure the Genophage and then send in their troops? The withholding of forces does nothing to help anybody, including the Krogan. All the points about rebuilding society and future generations is not guaranteed at that point for anyone, and by delaying the war all they are doing is allowing the Reapers to dig in deeper. 


As for the last point, I recruit both species as well (as would any sane person in that position), I was just making a point about how the narrative treats both aliens' nearly identical situations; namely the genophage vs attempted genocide, as well as how each species is viewed in relation to the greater galaxy; and yet ignores how much more helpful and willing to co-operate one species is compared to the other. In fact the writing will see characters making light about killing the huskified children of the Rachni, even referencing Aliens "Nuking them from orbit." line to them in general, but go all for the feelz when the Krogan are concerned. Heck, not one character will bat an eye if Shepard decides to leave the Queen to die, but the game won't forget telling you how awful you are for sabotaging the cure.

 In actuality, the Rachni were the ones to offer the most aid at cost to themselves, and all while not demanding restitutions in return, and yet the Krogan are seen as these blameless whitewashed victims being unjustly treated, and their refusal of aid being completely acceptable during the height of the Reaper invasion despite Wrex's promise of unmitigated aid in ME 2. In other words, I find the biased slant of the writing during the Genophage arch to be a wee bit hypocritical.

I would hardly call the dispatching of a single destroyer, some harvesters, and a small array of ground forces an invasion. Especially when compared to the rest of the galaxy; only Surkesh had a smaller Reaper presence; and even then it wasn't being dealt with solely by the Krogan forces. The Turians sent their own capital ship and fighter squadron to assist Tuchunka, you would think that Wrex would; at the very least; agree to send a battalion of soldiers to Palaven as a sign of good faith. Instead, he remains smug and haughty to his military allies throughout the entire venture; with the game only giving the player the options to agree with his prattling, or remain silent. Heck, the Turian Primarch loses his son trying to prevent the detonation of the bomb on Tuchunka at the hands of Cerberus, when he could very easily passed the blame off onto that human terrorist organization and utilized those forces back at his homeworld. 

That's what I meant by the Krogan 'twiddling their thumbs', sorry for any confusion. They are practically sitting around doing nothing while Shepard and Mordin/Paodok, and more broadly, the Turians are bending over backwards to meet their demands. All those clans under Wrex's command are serving no purpose lounging around on Tuchunka; they could be over on Palaven helping to relieve the stalemate while Shepard and Co. saw to the development of the cure. What's more, once the cure has been deployed, and the ultimatum met, Wrex still holds off on sending aid until after everyone gets a chance to 'test out' their newfound virility. 

The Tuchunka bomb could have easily been blamed on Cerberus though if the Primarch really wanted avoid dealing with it and didn't care about the Krogan outside of being bodies to fight the Reapers. Is Wrex really going to believe the human supremacist/terrorist group over the Turians here? It's not like the bomb was the only thing Cerberus was doing on Tuchunka after all. Obviously, the Primarch ordered it dealt with because he wanted to secure aid, but he was making far more effort towards building bridges than Wrex/Wreve was at the time, as well as thinking ahead for future interactions between the two species. 

Also, if the Krogan troops were ready for immediate deployment the moment the cure was deployed then that would mean that they were being purposely withheld. How long does it take a species renowned for their violence and warlike tendencies to get ready for a fight after all? And if they were combating the Reaper invasion of their planet, then why are we seeing only two transports and the Turian fighters approaching the Shroud Tower? If the situation on Tuchunka is so dire as to prevent their deployment to Palaven then why are only a handful of people (a good portion of them Turians) being sent to stop this destroyer poisoning their atmosphere?

I don't know if the Humans would accept responsibility, via Cerberus, for the bomb going off on Tuchanka. I don't know how much forensics would be left after such an explosion, but I suspect there would be enough there for an investigation to implicate the Turians, which is part of why they didn't want the thing going off. Also, as you said, outreach, trust, and basic "humanity". Is disabling a massive bomb that you planted now that someone else is going to set it off far more of an outreach? *Shrug* Maybe. Even if it was, let's just stipulate it that there was more outreach on the part of the Turians. Is this some sort of contest of outreach between the Turians and the Krogan to decide whether to cure the Krogan of the Genophage? I don't see the relevance. Does betraying the Krogan make us less ruthless?

You misunderstand me. The Krogan, or at least Wrex and Wreave, are withholding aid to Palaven until the cure is deployed - I thought that was obvious. My point was, they have their own problems on Tuchanka. I believe you indicated they were busy killing each other (see the power dynamic that takes place when Wrex/Wreave arrives on Tuchanka with Mordin/Paddock)? There's also the Reaper on their planet trying to kill them all. Once the cure is given, they deploy as fast as possible. Just because they aren't deploying to Pavalen or fighting each other, that doesn't mean they are "twiddling the thumbs", they could have just been prepping while awaiting the order to deploy, though from your statements I think anything other that full and immediate deployment to Palaven before the cure is given qualifies as just that, even though that cure hangs on the decision of one guy (and factions) quite obviously willing to betray them now that they're using what little leverage they have and aren't assisting fast enough. I mean, your attitude is sort of proving their whole position to withhold aid.

There's a whole convoy on the cutscene, at least seven trucks before they got hit by the Turian fighter that crashed, my answer to why there is only whatever number it that the Krogan wouldn't deploy all in one place anyway, we don't know how many trucks the Krogan have available, and the Krogan would probably do everything they could to ensure the cure is deployed so what you saw represented probably all the resources available anyway. Tuchanka is not exactly a cohesive well organized society, and pre-cure Wrex and Wreave's leadership is somewhat tenuous.