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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2017 17:41:15 GMT
That contradicts the codex however. The codex entry on them outright states they're monogendered and female. The prefix mono means one or single, like in the words monocle (a single corrective lens for the eye) or monogamy (a committed sexual relationship to one person), or monopoly (a market controlled by a single company). Monogendered would mean single gender, rather than no gender, and the game tells us that gender is female. Is the Codex from the POV of a human, or an Asari? Yes I am splitting hairs there, but it is one of those things that always was odd because conversations with Asari have contradicted the codex many times since Mass Effect 1. The codex is intended to be the definitive lore dump. It's there to give players all the information they might want to know about the game universe and the people populating it, that couldn't or shouldn't be conveyed through dialogue. There's no reason to doubt anything in it unless something within gets retconned at a later date. That particular codex entry is never contradicted by dialogue. Liara, the source of lore dumps on the Asari outside the codex in ME1, never says the Asari aren't female. She was saying that gender identity didn't have cultural meaning for them, not that the Asari didn't have a biological sex.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 6, 2017 17:41:29 GMT
Making a race that does not work with binary gender bs is too difficult, a lot of people will get trigger for using they as a pronoun. except why using They at all, which is a bs in itself. Why not use One for example, that is utilized by Hanar and would be more correct both from logical point of view, as well as grammatical one (which while being disputed, has not been proved to be correct)
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 6, 2017 17:42:17 GMT
The fact that I have to make this statement first sucks, but I am entirely for equality regardless of sexuality or gender. So now that's out the way, I can make a comment. The whole point of aliens are that they present us with an entirely different type of life, entirely different culture, thought patterns, belief systems, and physical presence. What makes them alien is the differences they display, by forcing gender issues onto the asari, a mono-gendered female species who identify using terms such as "matriarch", "huntress", "valkyrie", "sisterhood initiate" and whose children are uniformly labeled as "daughters", it begins to eat away at the very fabric of what makes the species different. The fact that they don't have gender identity issues is something that is alien, because gender-identity and sexual-identity is considered to be a major part of modern western culture in the time we live in, but for the asari it just is not there. Bioware should change it, not because someone may complain of social-justice warriors or anything like that, but to keep with the lore and to keep the asari feeling alien. The more they become human, the more boring they become, and if they become too human why bother even having them in the game? its has been the lore since ME1, those terms were there from the beginning and has endure 4 games. This is not one of those things Bioware changed all of a sudden recently to placate someone
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Post by kino on Apr 6, 2017 17:44:06 GMT
And yet that's not what was said. In one instance she's Liara's father, in another instance she's the mother of a daughter with a Hanar. The implication is that they recognize the usage of gender specific verbs when speaking with two gendered species. That's many things, political correctness isn't one of them. My point is that for a human the words "father" and "mother" imply different genders. For an Asari, these words have nothing to do with gender, but rather with the technical aspect of determining which partner gave birth. All true. And my point is that they, as a race, recognize the usage of gender when communicating with others.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 6, 2017 17:46:06 GMT
But why would they feel the need to shoehorn themselves into the female or male theoretical framework. Most likely the asari are not the only species on their planet to reproduce asexually, so they would develop a theoretical framework that distinguished between sexually reproductive and asexually reproductive species (which we have as well, btw) and place themselves in the latter category. They wouldn't. But it is conceivable they do. Concievable, but not logical and technically incorrect. By the technical definition, asari are not female and to classify themselves as such scientifically would just be flat out incorrect. So there's no reason simple awareness of sexually reproductive species would cause them to classify themselves that way, let alone develops concepts of gender around "male" and "female," especially when every asari is capable of being both a mother and a father and have no physical characteristics to distinguish them in such a way. Now, it is more conceivable that a concept of gender could have been imported from an alien culture. Even still, that doesn't change The reality of asari biology being asexual and it still seems unlikely that they would start arbitrarily dividing themselves that way, much less mimic the gender conventions of a species like the Salarians (whose females lay eggs and rarely leave the homeworld or colony world according to lore) or the turians (who haven't displayed a ton of gender differentiation beyond the visual, so I'm not sure why they would care enough to mimic it granted we haven't seen many). In fact the quarian and human females are pretty much the only ones that we know share physical similarity to the asari, and I gather that they are both relative newcomers. Point being, I don't see gender identity as we think of it becoming a thing in asari society except as some sort of really fringe thing among some asari that probably live in alien dominated worlds.
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Post by Mihura on Apr 6, 2017 17:49:35 GMT
Making a race that does not work with binary gender bs is too difficult, a lot of people will get trigger for using they as a pronoun. except why using They at all, which is a bs in itself. Why not use One for example, that is utilized by Hanar and would be more correct both from logical point of view, as well as grammatical one (which while being disputed, has not been proved to be correct) Ya you proved my point.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 6, 2017 17:51:39 GMT
They do require a partner to reproduce, but that partner can be of any gender. Physical contact isn't even needed. I highly doubt that part. Liara states it directly in ME1
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Post by danishgambit on Apr 6, 2017 17:53:07 GMT
The fact that I have to make this statement first sucks, but I am entirely for equality regardless of sexuality or gender. So now that's out the way, I can make a comment. The whole point of aliens are that they present us with an entirely different type of life, entirely different culture, thought patterns, belief systems, and physical presence. What makes them alien is the differences they display, by forcing gender issues onto the asari, a mono-gendered female species who identify using terms such as "matriarch", "huntress", "valkyrie", "sisterhood initiate" and whose children are uniformly labeled as "daughters", it begins to eat away at the very fabric of what makes the species different. The fact that they don't have gender identity issues is something that is alien, because gender-identity and sexual-identity is considered to be a major part of modern western culture in the time we live in, but for the asari it just is not there. Bioware should change it, not because someone may complain of social-justice warriors or anything like that, but to keep with the lore and to keep the asari feeling alien. The more they become human, the more boring they become, and if they become too human why bother even having them in the game? The problem is that there are very few words in the English language that describe non-gendered entities and they're all either super complicated, wouldn't be used in normal conversation or just completely unknown. The word "they" is starting to be used to describe a single person of unknown gender but I don't know if this is grammatically correct. And besides, it just sounds weird to use the word "they" all the time. They probably have to literally make up alien words for other species to be able to describe Asari's gender or whatever in normal conversation but that's hard and it's easier to just dump gender pronouns on them and just hand wave the lore. Also as we have seen, it opens the floodgates for hamfisted political garbage to be spewed onto the writing. I don't really see the need tbh as the term bondmate seems fully sufficient. There's no need to even attempt to add gender pronouns. Just say that this Asari is the parent and that other Asari is also the parent. This Asati is a bondmate and the other Asari is a bondmate. Problem solved. They butchered the Qun with this nonsense and now they're butchering the Asari with it. It's a shame.
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Post by Warrick on Apr 6, 2017 17:56:23 GMT
Liara states it directly in ME1 Really? I don't remember it. Seems far fetched from what we know about melding, connecting nervous systems is not done wirelessly...
*Insert "one does not simply..." meme here*
He's right Liara says that in ME1.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 6, 2017 17:57:55 GMT
except why using They at all, which is a bs in itself. Why not use One for example, that is utilized by Hanar and would be more correct both from logical point of view, as well as grammatical one (which while being disputed, has not been proved to be correct) Ya you proved my point. so, do you have anything else besides sarcasm?... Maybe for you it is more preferable to just make up baseless bs on the go and then shove it onto others, like "correct" pronounce for example, branding everyone who disagrees with different names, than trying to follow logic and common sense, but its not for me or many others. So instead of being snarky, try to be inclusive and tolerant next time, ok? *wink-wink* After all we all allowed to have opinion, doubly so when it is logical and sensible one.
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Post by timebean on Apr 6, 2017 18:05:05 GMT
So she said the word "father" for Shepard's benefit, how is that proving anything exactly?
Hell, she might have said "asdihf hidfwuih" in Asari and Shaperd's implant translated it into "father" as merely the closest translation in english.
And yet she clearly said "father". Even made the comment about not being the mother. That's a helluva lot of mistranslation. It's proving that Asari understand the usage of pronouns. I thought that'd be clear. Just chiming in. FATHER is not a pronoun. It is a noun. Thus, they could say "She is the father", and still have a single pronoun that they use.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 6, 2017 18:06:00 GMT
Not really, it seems more likely the asari have two words for their parents.. One refers to the one who gave birth, and one that refers to the one melded with in order to become pregnant. The latter could equally apply to a female of another species because it describes their role in the creation of the child rather than gender. "Father" and "Mother" are simply the closest human language equivalents given by the translator. True. That's a reasonable interpretation of the exchange. Hell, Liara's father even talks of mating with Hanar, implying she was the mother in that case. The usage of father/mother could be an Asari affectation for the benefit of two gendered species, but that would still imply they understand gender specific nomenclature when talking to others. They probably do, but it's worth remembering that everything we hear an alien say in Mass Effect is theoretically being filtered through a translator intended to make alien languages intelligible. What we hear could be approximations of meaning. I always assumed that the reason female pronouns and words are used to describe the asari was because of their obvious resemblance to human females and because the English language doesn't always have great gender neutrals (The real reason is obviously because they were designed to be blue alien space babes, but I'm trying to logic here)
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Post by Amirit on Apr 6, 2017 18:08:17 GMT
I want ME universe to make sense again. Good luck with that! Nothing - and I repeat - NOTHING in MEA makes any sense science, or economic, or social, or even lore-wise. Just roll with it and stop overthinking space-opera. You can hurt your brain
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 6, 2017 18:12:33 GMT
True. That's a reasonable interpretation of the exchange. Hell, Liara's father even talks of mating with Hanar, implying she was the mother in that case. The usage of father/mother could be an Asari affectation for the benefit of two gendered species, but that would still imply they understand gender specific nomenclature when talking to others. They probably do, but it's worth remembering that everything we hear an alien say in Mass Effect is theoretically being filtered through a translator intended to make alien languages intelligible. What we hear could be approximations of meaning. I always assumed that the reason female pronouns and words are used to describe the asari was because of their obvious resemblance to human females and because the English language doesn't always have great gender neutrals (The real reason is obviously because they were designed to be blue alien space babes, but I'm trying to logic here) I always just assumed it was a translator thing. The asari word for 'mother' could be glignishlshurtz and their word for 'father' could be jolingkshlty both of which would have no gender component inherent in their definition but human translators simply turn it into 'mother' and 'father' because that is the closest thing we have to those Asari concepts of their birth parents. A femShep/Liara baby would result in femShep being the 'father'. For asari these roles and the words they used to describe them simply wouldn't have gender components.
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Post by kaind on Apr 6, 2017 18:13:17 GMT
When it comes to the game itself and how it presents itself I am not usually sensitive to these kind of things and topics and I do not pick them up easily, and usually when I do pick up on something it's when the game is extremely sexist, but this time ME:A really made me feel like it was made by hardcore SJW's. I don't even remember any other game that really made me feel this way.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 6, 2017 18:22:36 GMT
Really? I don't remember it. Seems far fetched from what we know about melding, connecting nervous systems is not done wirelessly...
*Insert "one does not simply..." meme here*
He's right Liara says that in ME1. It's why after ME3 some people speculated that if you accept Liara's "gift" she's actually impregnating herself with Shepard's child
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Post by Wulfram on Apr 6, 2017 18:22:45 GMT
There are loads and loads of Asari, there's no particular reason that they'd all have the same view about the appropriate pronoun to use. Preference for a neutral pronoun seems particularly likely to be common.
It could get silly if Bioware tried to push things too far - fundamentally it should be more of a grammatical quibble than a deep question of identity - but I don't think what's in the game is a problem from a lore point of view unless you want to read in more than it actually says.
And as someone else said, there aren't any Asari about to take offence.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2017 18:29:35 GMT
They do require a partner to reproduce, but that partner can be of any gender. Physical contact isn't even needed. Asari breed via parthenogenesis and only need a partner to randomize genes. That is what Liara tells us in ME1, but ME2's Erinya tells us they can do the needed gene randomization with radiation... so I don't know that they actually need a partner to have a child.
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Post by Mihura on Apr 6, 2017 18:37:13 GMT
so, do you have anything else besides sarcasm?... Maybe for you it is more preferable to just make up baseless bs on the go and then shove it onto others, like "correct" pronounce for example, branding everyone who disagrees with different names, than trying to follow logic and common sense, but its not for me or many others. So instead of being snarky, try to be inclusive and tolerant next time, ok? *wink-wink* After all we all allowed to have opinion, doubly so when it is logical and sensible one.
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Post by NUM13ER on Apr 6, 2017 18:42:15 GMT
The thing that annoys me about this pronoun conversation is how very little it demonstrates any understanding of the asari lore and that it comes from a very anthropomorphic stance.
It assumes the asari don't already have a pronoun to distinguish themselves from objects and that when any pronoun is used their translators mean they only hear the asari term regardless. They're not like humans, they don't actually have male and female, they're monogendered. They're feminine to the other races, so everyone else uses female pronouns.
Liara even states that gender has no meaning to them. So why would other asari even give a shit about gender pronouns? As a general rule of thumb you don't impose our concepts onto an alien race. Especially if you've firmly established they don't subscribe to that very concept.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 6, 2017 18:45:03 GMT
The thing that annoys me about this pronoun conversation is how very little it demonstrates any understand of the asari lore and that it comes from a very anthropomorphic stance. It assumes the asari don't already have a pronoun to distinguish themselves from objects and that when any pronoun is used their translators mean they only hear the asari term regardless. They're not like humans, they don't actually have male and female, they're monogendered. Liara even states that gender has no meaning to them in the slightest. So why would other asari even give a shit about pronouns? "Anthropocentric bag of d*cks"
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Post by kino on Apr 6, 2017 18:45:43 GMT
And yet she clearly said "father". Even made the comment about not being the mother. That's a helluva lot of mistranslation. It's proving that Asari understand the usage of pronouns. I thought that'd be clear. Just chiming in. FATHER is not a pronoun. It is a noun. Thus, they could say "She is the father", and still have a single pronoun that they use. You're right. It's a noun in the personal tense. Saying it about another person would make it a verb.
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Post by danishgambit on Apr 6, 2017 18:45:55 GMT
There are loads and loads of Asari, there's no particular reason that they'd all have the same view about the appropriate pronoun to use. Preference for a neutral pronoun seems particularly likely to be common. It could get silly if Bioware tried to push things too far - fundamentally it should be more of a grammatical quibble than a deep question of identity - but I don't think what's in the game is a problem from a lore point of view unless you want to read in more than it actually says. And as someone else said, there aren't any Asari about to take offence. A genderless race wouldn't use gender pronouns at all unless they were referring to other races. It's just another case of the lore being contradicted or even twisted for political purposes.
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Post by NUM13ER on Apr 6, 2017 18:52:13 GMT
The thing that annoys me about this pronoun conversation is how very little it demonstrates any understand of the asari lore and that it comes from a very anthropomorphic stance. It assumes the asari don't already have a pronoun to distinguish themselves from objects and that when any pronoun is used their translators mean they only hear the asari term regardless. They're not like humans, they don't actually have male and female, they're monogendered. Liara even states that gender has no meaning to them in the slightest. So why would other asari even give a shit about pronouns? "Anthropocentric bag of d*cks" Haha, I was actually thinking of that conversation.
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Wulfram
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Wulfram on Apr 6, 2017 18:57:00 GMT
A genderless race wouldn't use gender pronouns at all unless they were referring to other races. It's just another case of the lore being contradicted or even twisted for political purposes. A genderless race that cares about what aliens think might well care what pronouns aliens use about them. And Asari have been intimately connected - marrying and having children with - to gendered alien races for 2 and half millennia.
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