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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 8, 2017 22:37:52 GMT
"It went to absurd levels on Eos - Kett and Initiative have bases 1km apart and both sides pretend it's fine." Has this guy never played a video game before? Gameplay trumps spacial realism. Always has, always will, and always did in the original Mass Effect trilogy.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 8, 2017 22:45:10 GMT
So when SAM was offline for the playable Ryder and Ryder made things happen....? Playable Ryder can use Remnant tech (eventually) even without SAM. This suggests Ryder is much more capable and competent than you want to allow credit for. I would acknowledge this if it made any sense. But it doesn’t. It makes ZERO sense. It’s stated throughout the whole game that Ryder needs SAM to interact with the Remnant tech, and all of a sudden they don’t? How? Why? As far as I know, they never even bothered to explain it. They did. Foreshadowing occured as early as the Hvarl (the jungle world), and on multiple ploints at Aya and with the Moshae, where it's established the Remtech can be used via a sort of intuition and practice. Angara have their genetic memory, but Ryder had SAM, who worked through Ryder's implants. Don't think of it as 'Ryder held the com device real close for SAM to do it's work'- Ryder was the conduit, because SAM only connects through Ryder's neutral implants, and SAM's mental/brain effects were established throughout the memory trigger arc and revival cinematic. The cue the final elaboration, at the endgame/immediately after, where they give brief technojargon along with the health warning of 'yeah, you can do it, but it's dangerous so don't without SAM.' Basically, SAM playing with your neurons to make it work left well-trod paths, like the Angara.
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Post by Melcara on Apr 8, 2017 23:04:52 GMT
I would acknowledge this if it made any sense. But it doesn’t. It makes ZERO sense. It’s stated throughout the whole game that Ryder needs SAM to interact with the Remnant tech, and all of a sudden they don’t? How? Why? As far as I know, they never even bothered to explain it. They did. Foreshadowing occured as early as the Hvarl (the jungle world), and on multiple ploints at Aya and with the Moshae, where it's established the Remtech can be used via a sort of intuition and practice. Angara have their genetic memory, but Ryder had SAM, who worked through Ryder's implants. Don't think of it as 'Ryder held the com device real close for SAM to do it's work'- Ryder was the conduit, because SAM only connects through Ryder's neutral implants, and SAM's mental/brain effects were established throughout the memory trigger arc and revival cinematic. The cue the final elaboration, at the endgame/immediately after, where they give brief technojargon along with the health warning of 'yeah, you can do it, but it's dangerous so don't without SAM.' Basically, SAM playing with your neurons to make it work left well-trod paths, like the Angara. Fair enough, I must have missed that. It makes sense that the Angara would be able to use it because of their genetic memory. But with Ryder, it still seems kind of fishy. It seems like they didn’t really want to give us an explanation and instead wanted us to make one up. And even if Ryder can now interact with Remnant alone, it apparently hurts them really badly. And Ryder is not going to be much use with their brain torn apart. So that doesn’t really add that much to their competence.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 8, 2017 23:07:24 GMT
They did. Foreshadowing occured as early as the Hvarl (the jungle world), and on multiple ploints at Aya and with the Moshae, where it's established the Remtech can be used via a sort of intuition and practice. Angara have their genetic memory, but Ryder had SAM, who worked through Ryder's implants. Don't think of it as 'Ryder held the com device real close for SAM to do it's work'- Ryder was the conduit, because SAM only connects through Ryder's neutral implants, and SAM's mental/brain effects were established throughout the memory trigger arc and revival cinematic. The cue the final elaboration, at the endgame/immediately after, where they give brief technojargon along with the health warning of 'yeah, you can do it, but it's dangerous so don't without SAM.' Basically, SAM playing with your neurons to make it work left well-trod paths, like the Angara. Fair enough, I must have missed that. It makes sense that the Angara would be able to use it because of their genetic memory. But with Ryder, it still seems kind of fishy. And even if Ryder can now interact with Remnant alone, it apparently hurts them really badly. And Ryder is not going to be much use with their brain torn apart. So that doesn’t really add that much to their competence. If you feel that's in doubt, go ahead, but personally I don't think 'performs unprecedented feat no one else can do to great effect' meshes well with incompetence.
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Post by Melcara on Apr 8, 2017 23:14:01 GMT
Fair enough, I must have missed that. It makes sense that the Angara would be able to use it because of their genetic memory. But with Ryder, it still seems kind of fishy. And even if Ryder can now interact with Remnant alone, it apparently hurts them really badly. And Ryder is not going to be much use with their brain torn apart. So that doesn’t really add that much to their competence. If you feel that's in doubt, go ahead, but personally I don't think 'performs unprecedented feat no one else can do to great effect' meshes well with incompetence. Well, is it really like that, though? If we’re going by the explanation that Ryder can now do it because SAM left some sort of neural paths in their brain, it seems like anyone that has had SAM in their head for some time could do it. Ryder isn’t incompetent. It’s just that the game sort of fails at making them feel special.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 8, 2017 23:37:22 GMT
If you feel that's in doubt, go ahead, but personally I don't think 'performs unprecedented feat no one else can do to great effect' meshes well with incompetence. Well, is it really like that, though? If we’re going by the explanation that Ryder can now do it because SAM left some sort of neural paths in their brain, it seems like anyone that has had SAM in their head for some time could do it. Ryder isn’t incompetent. It’s just that the game sort of fails at making them feel special. 'Could'? Only in the same way that anyone 'could' be Commander Shepard in ME2/3, ie good with a gun/alleged leadership/things not physically impossible for other people. 'Would', though? Well, there's a pretty clear strain, and I've not met too many people who would press on when bleeding out of their orifices from their brain so hard. Especially when there are no other people around who physically could do it either. That feels pretty special to me. So, which is it? Is the bar that the protagonist isn't special if anyone else with their plot macguffin could do the same thing? By that standard, Shepard wasn't special either- the Prothean Vision could have gone to Ashley/Kaiden, and Shepard's only unique thing afterwards was reputation from doing things any good gunslinger could. On the other hand, if the bar is doing something no one else could have done, then Ryder still applies- because even if other people could have had the SAM, they didn't, so Ryder is still unique in accumulated experience and abilities.
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Post by Melcara on Apr 8, 2017 23:54:58 GMT
Well, is it really like that, though? If we’re going by the explanation that Ryder can now do it because SAM left some sort of neural paths in their brain, it seems like anyone that has had SAM in their head for some time could do it. Ryder isn’t incompetent. It’s just that the game sort of fails at making them feel special. 'Could'? Only in the same way that anyone 'could' be Commander Shepard in ME2/3, ie good with a gun/alleged leadership/things not physically impossible for other people. 'Would', though? Well, there's a pretty clear strain, and I've not met too many people who would press on when bleeding out of their orifices from their brain so hard. Especially when there are no other people around who physically could do it either. That feels pretty special to me. So, which is it? Is the bar that the protagonist isn't special if anyone else with their plot macguffin could do the same thing? By that standard, Shepard wasn't special either- the Prothean Vision could have gone to Ashley/Kaiden, and Shepard's only unique thing afterwards was reputation from doing things any good gunslinger could. On the other hand, if the bar is doing something no one else could have done, then Ryder still applies- because even if other people could have had the SAM, they didn't, so Ryder is still unique in accumulated experience and abilities. See, that’s exactly that I was getting at - Shepard was unique. That sort of leaderly presence and the respect that they commanded could not be achieved by just anyone. Cerberus spent so much money on Project Lazarus for a reason. Just imagine having Kaidan or Ashley in Shepard’s place. Does that seem right? Shepard is part of what makes Mass Effect... Well, Mass Effect. Now imagine having Cora, for example, as the Pathfinder instead of Ryder. Would things really be all that different? "Other people could have had SAM, but they didn’t." Well, yeah, but if they did have him, then they would be capable of the same things as Ryder, right? Is Ryder really only special because he got SAM instead of, say, Cora? I guess it’s all a matter of perspective, in the end. Ryder is a decent enough protagonist, but a far cry from Shepard. Maybe that will change in a potential sequel or a DLC.
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Post by jastall on Apr 8, 2017 23:59:24 GMT
That's like saying Shepard is useless because the Cypher in their head did everything (admittedly the writers forgot about it in ME2-3, but still). Or the Warden is useless because the Darkspawn blood does everything. Or Geralt is useless because Ciri and Avellach do most of the plot-important magic in TW3. Or the Nameless One in PS:T is useless because most of the directions he receives come from previous incarnations.
Sure, SAM's an asset and a plot device that may be a bit overused, but Ryder is still responsible for most of the heavy lifting in the story. Plot devices are hardly unique to Andromeda.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 9, 2017 0:22:39 GMT
See, that’s exactly that I was getting at - Shepard was unique. That sort of leaderly presence and the respect that they commanded could not be achieved by just anyone. Cerberus spent so much money on Project Lazarus for a reason. Just imagine having Kaidan or Ashley in Shepard’s place. Does that seem right? Shepard is part of what makes Mass Effect... Well, Mass Effect. Now imagine having Cora, for example, as the Pathfinder instead of Ryder. Would things really be all that different? "Other people could have had SAM, but they didn’t." Well, yeah, but if they did have him, then they would be capable of the same things as Ryder, right? Is Ryder really only special because he got SAM instead of, say, Cora? I guess it’s all a matter of perspective, in the end. Ryder is a decent enough protagonist, but a far cry from Shepard. Maybe that will change in a potential sequel or a DLC. But what you say about Shepard is... not unique. Or rather, the only thing that was unique about Shepard was the reputation of having done things- which is exactly the same sort of uniqueness that Ryder builds. Shepard wasn't a remarkable reader. The writers tried to say he was, but they never actually wrote good leadership, and never made a compelling case for uniqueness besides 'welp, Shepard did things before.' You know who else did things before? Pretty much everyone in the crew. Shepard's distinction was 'good at fighting,' which is not something unique to Sheaprd. I'd absolutely would have felt the Mass Effect trilogy would have been just as right, if not better, had the role of PC been filled by rotating PC protagonists rather than Shepard. Dragon Age has done it to great effect, and it would have gone a good ways about making Mass Effect about the setting and not a poorly defined/inconsistent PC protagonist. The series is pretty much built on it anyway. In ME1, Shepard is only unique because he has the Prothean vision. That uniqueness for plot purposes would have been served just as well if it'd been Ashley/Kaiden/Leeroy Jenkins, with only minor modification to the plot in which the PC protects the person with the irreplacable macguffin rather than is the person with the irreplacable macguffin. Even the nominal special sticker- SPECTRE status- is largely irrelevant, because it is irrelevant for the plot. Shepard doesn't need to be a Spectre to do anything that an Alliance Marine couldn't already do, because the laws aren't in the way. And the key climax of the story- Shepard's mutiny to chase after Saren- renders even the Spectre card meaningless. In ME2, the player builds a squad for a suicide mission that doesn't actually need 'the best of the best' to be at their best to succeed. Aside from a pretty poor lack of writing to show Shepard demonstrating, well, leadership to make the collection of people a team (seriously- the game has the least inter-party dialogue and inter-companion relationships of any Bioware game, and it's the game built around building a team), almost none of the squad in ME2 only joins because of Sheaprd anyway. Shepard is ultimately irrelevant to the motivations of most of the recruits, no more special than a Cerberus agent, and those who do join with Shepard specific motives- Garrus, Tali, Legion- could easily have been written in anyway. Shepard is not unique in the game that claims Shepard is special, because the plot does not depend on Shepard doing anything that any other Player Character couldn't have done (ie, be good at guns). Avoiding Shepard would have also avoided the entire Lazarus project, which injected serious amounts of sillyness and space magic that wasn't even dwelt upon- whereas at least SAM gets attention and sub-plots about human-AI bonding. In ME3, Shepard's unique history is largely useless as well. Shepard is a representative, and the person Shepard represents isn't Shepard- it's Hackett, and the Systems Alliance. Shepard spends the game as Hackett's gopher, and every major plot bowel movement flows from accomplishments in the course of that, not the previous games. Any gopher- even a PC-version of James Vega- who can fight well enough to do what Shepard did will accomplish what Shepard did, which was to become a War Hero on top of Hackett's errand boy. In every Mass Effect game, Shepard is not specially competent beyond any other PC archetype. If you play the standard that "Well, yeah, but if they did have him, then they would be capable of the same things as Ryder, right? Is Ryder really only special because he got SAM instead of, say, Cora?", then the same standard can be applied to Shepard. Shepard was only special in ME1 because he got the Prothean vision instead of, say, Jenkins. And after ME1, Shepard doesn't even have that.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 9, 2017 6:11:31 GMT
'Could'? Only in the same way that anyone 'could' be Commander Shepard in ME2/3, ie good with a gun/alleged leadership/things not physically impossible for other people. 'Would', though? Well, there's a pretty clear strain, and I've not met too many people who would press on when bleeding out of their orifices from their brain so hard. Especially when there are no other people around who physically could do it either. That feels pretty special to me. So, which is it? Is the bar that the protagonist isn't special if anyone else with their plot macguffin could do the same thing? By that standard, Shepard wasn't special either- the Prothean Vision could have gone to Ashley/Kaiden, and Shepard's only unique thing afterwards was reputation from doing things any good gunslinger could. On the other hand, if the bar is doing something no one else could have done, then Ryder still applies- because even if other people could have had the SAM, they didn't, so Ryder is still unique in accumulated experience and abilities. See, that’s exactly that I was getting at - Shepard was unique. That sort of leaderly presence and the respect that they commanded could not be achieved by just anyone. Cerberus spent so much money on Project Lazarus for a reason. Just imagine having Kaidan or Ashley in Shepard’s place. Does that seem right? Shepard is part of what makes Mass Effect... Well, Mass Effect. Now imagine having Cora, for example, as the Pathfinder instead of Ryder. Would things really be all that different? "Other people could have had SAM, but they didn’t." Well, yeah, but if they did have him, then they would be capable of the same things as Ryder, right? Is Ryder really only special because he got SAM instead of, say, Cora? I guess it’s all a matter of perspective, in the end. Ryder is a decent enough protagonist, but a far cry from Shepard. Maybe that will change in a potential sequel or a DLC. I actually don't believe Cora would ever have had SAM in the way Ryder does. Most pathfinders don't have the special connection. That was just between SAM and Alec and later SAM and the twin. In that sense, yes, this is a unique situation for them. Alec and his kids were capable of things via SAM that were not possible for anyone else. Also, Shepard was space magiced back to life. There's no explanation that makes any kind of sense in the game for Shepard to return to life. On the one hand, Shepard's helmet kept the brani intact. On the other, you find the helmet on Alchera so there's no way the helmet was keeping the brain intact. Brain dead, asphyxiation, freefall through the atmosphere and plummeting to the ground. Are we really trying to say recovery from that makes sense at all? So, yeah, BioWare did a handwave to bring Shepard back to life and they're offering one to Ryder to give some unique talents.
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Post by toomanyclouds on Apr 9, 2017 9:44:02 GMT
I think SAM's presence in the game is so oppressive in a gameplay sense that it kind of enhances his already substantial role in the plot. Temperatures are dropping. Temperatures are within acceptable limits. Mining Interface can be accessed. Pathfinder, we can find an electrical console to connect to this door. Pathfinder, it's not good to annoy this person. Pathfinder, I detect a signal in the area. P A T H F I N D E R. I don't think I went through ten minutes of this game without hearing SAM at least once. Put that together with Ryder already being a relatively unimpressive everyman hero (at least at the start), I did often feel like I was pretty much just SAM's puppet, especially when the game felt the need to explain the most obvious mission steps to me repeatedly through the voice of SAM. It took away from the sense of wonder and exploration for me and I don't even think it was meant to. SAM really suffered from also being forced to be this constant tutorial voice that often makes it your role to wander around with your omnitool outstretched while SAM does the actual work of tracking coordinates, translating, and sometimes even putting together the pieces and explaining to you the result of what you just found.
That said, I really like the idea of what it could mean to meld with an AI. In the actual scenes "with" SAM, where you talk to him in the Node or after missions and find out how he develops and reflects on the events on the game, SAM was very interesting.
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 10, 2017 5:40:47 GMT
"It went to absurd levels on Eos - Kett and Initiative have bases 1km apart and both sides pretend it's fine." Has this guy never played a video game before? Gameplay trumps spacial realism. Always has, always will, and always did in the original Mass Effect trilogy. Were you talking about me?
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Post by Doominike on Apr 10, 2017 6:35:39 GMT
Shep wasn't just "good at fighting", s/he was very very very good at fighting. I didn't see anyone else around treating Krogan Warlords like speedbumps.
As for Ryder, the way I see it, Remnant systems weren't made for AIs, they were intended for the Angara, and as proven/strongly implied by the sages, there is a proper, intended way to use it by yourself. SAM is a brute force hacking method of doing it. And since SAM and Ryder are a symbiosis, Ryder learned how to hack into Remnant systems over time, only it damages her brain because she's brute force hacking an advanced alien system with her mind. (which is badass af imo)
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Post by mograximus on Apr 10, 2017 11:30:09 GMT
They just need to put anyone other than Mac Walters on the Creative Director pedestal and Andromeda 2 will automatically improve. QFT
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Post by Rochrok on Apr 10, 2017 15:00:58 GMT
That's like saying Shepard is useless because the Cypher in their head did everything (admittedly the writers forgot about it in ME2-3, but still). Or the Warden is useless because the Darkspawn blood does everything. Or Geralt is useless because Ciri and Avellach do most of the plot-important magic in TW3. Or the Nameless One in PS:T is useless because most of the directions he receives come from previous incarnations. Sure, SAM's an asset and a plot device that may be a bit overused, but Ryder is still responsible for most of the heavy lifting in the story. Plot devices are hardly unique to Andromeda. Shepard doesn't spend 100 hours in game using the Cypher, actually he doesn't even use it for a significant amount of time during the entire trilogy. The Warden only needs the ritual blood to make him able to slay the Archdemon. The game makes this clear. Ciri and Avellach don't spend 100+ hours in the game doing plot relevant things. That is the big difference between them and Ryder. In MEA, you spend the bulk of the game hacking terminals and listening to SAM tell you where to go. It's a plot device that is far more used than any of the examples above. It's used too much to the point where you wonder if you should have been playing as SAM instead.
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Post by Doominike on Apr 10, 2017 17:48:48 GMT
Maybe we are playing as SAM all along *twilight zone music*
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Post by vyndral on Apr 10, 2017 17:50:39 GMT
Maybe we are playing as SAM all along *twilight zone music* As long as he doesn't start referring to Ryder's body as his meat shield, we should be ok.
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 10, 2017 20:42:01 GMT
We are playing as Ryder with his closest companion being SAM, albeit in a way we're not used to.
So yes, this is at least nearly SAM's story, even if the focus isn't on him (yet).
Ryder perspective for a 'human story', but as close as Bioware could get to making it also SAM's story, or at least the beginnings of it.
We wouldn't be written to be so pro-SAM otherewise. In some sense, to some degree, he 'is us'. Like Ryder is 'him'.
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Post by vyndral on Apr 10, 2017 21:50:53 GMT
We are playing as Ryder with his closest companion being SAM, albeit in a way we're not used to. So yes, this is at least nearly SAM's story, even if the focus isn't on him (yet). Ryder perspective for a 'human story', but as close as Bioware could get to making it also SAM's story, or at least the beginnings of it. We wouldn't be written to be so pro-SAM otherewise. In some sense, to some degree, he 'is us'. Like Ryder is 'him'. Im secretly holding out hope that SAM turns out to be the Benefactor. It would be glorious. Having a secretive Double dealing AI attached to you that you can't shut down, because you will die. Although a suppose the same could happen if the Voeld AI corrupts him some how.
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Post by Croatsky on Apr 10, 2017 21:57:48 GMT
Maybe we are playing as SAM all along *twilight zone music* So that means even A.I.'s want some good banging? Geth romance confirmed finally?!
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 10, 2017 22:01:29 GMT
Shep wasn't just "good at fighting", s/he was very very very good at fighting. I didn't see anyone else around treating Krogan Warlords like speedbumps. You also didn't see anyone fighting Krogan Warlords in the first place, let alone other PCs. Bioware PCs are always combat gods. That's intrinsic to being a PC, not the PC character themselves. This is the Hawke-vs-Warden logic all over again.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 10, 2017 22:02:47 GMT
Has this guy never played a video game before? Gameplay trumps spacial realism. Always has, always will, and always did in the original Mass Effect trilogy. Were you talking about me? Only if you made the quote, which I don't think you did.
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Post by Doominike on Apr 10, 2017 22:31:01 GMT
Shep wasn't just "good at fighting", s/he was very very very good at fighting. I didn't see anyone else around treating Krogan Warlords like speedbumps. You also didn't see anyone fighting Krogan Warlords in the first place, let alone other PCs. Bioware PCs are always combat gods. That's intrinsic to being a PC, not the PC character themselves. This is the Hawke-vs-Warden logic all over again. The way I see it is that they're the PC because they're that strong, not the other way around. That's how one should write it anyway. If you make a game where the campaign and missions require you to be a one-man army, you write the PC to be a one-man army, not some regular grunt who's inexplicably mowing down scores of enemies. I wasn't arguing for Shep being a better fighter than Ryder (tho I'd say she is), I was saying that the Cypher isn't the main thing making Shep special imo.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 10, 2017 22:58:12 GMT
You also didn't see anyone fighting Krogan Warlords in the first place, let alone other PCs. Bioware PCs are always combat gods. That's intrinsic to being a PC, not the PC character themselves. This is the Hawke-vs-Warden logic all over again. The way I see it is that they're the PC because they're that strong, not the other way around. That's how one should write it anyway. If you make a game where the campaign and missions require you to be a one-man army, you write the PC to be a one-man army, not some regular grunt who's inexplicably mowing down scores of enemies. I wasn't arguing for Shep being a better fighter than Ryder (tho I'd say she is), I was saying that the Cypher isn't the main thing making Shep special imo. Not disagreeing, but clarifying my point- If Shepard's 'specailness' comes from being a PC, then he's no more special than any other PC would be. Bioware protagonists are one (wo)man armies regardless of the origin stories, because that's just the type of game Bioware designs. If Bioware took any NPC from the cast and made them the player character for a game, then they'd naturally become one (wo)man armies as well, equally unique (and capable) as Shepard as the plot demands. And unless the plot demands that they not be strong- which, to date, has basically amounted to a single Joker running segment and the sibling-Ryder segment in MEA- then for the rest of the game PC McWhatsTheirFace will be just as strong and special as Commander Shepard. (Or 'The Warden', or 'The Inquisitor', or whatever PC you want to compare it to. For Bioware to NOT write one-person-army PCs, they'd have to write games were being a one-person-army is not the dominant style of gameplay. If Bioware wrote a stealth game where killing a singe Cerberus mook was a major achievement, then you might have a case where a character is less 'special' in the sense that a character's specialness is primarily their violence potential. But that's not an appreciable difference between Shepard and Ryder, where Ryder single-teamidly assaults enemy bases and boards hostile ships repeadly and pals around/treats as a Peer someone who is, well, also a Spectre, aka Shepard's peer. Ryder is a combat badass- even if the plot doesn't fixate on calling them 'impossible' tasks- who likewise does 'the impossible' that everyone else failed to do. When it comes to fighting Ryder's just as special as Shepard, who's just as special as the Warden, who's just as special as Hawke, who's just as special as the next Bioware protagonist who kills dozens of enemies per battle will be. When every protagonist is special on grounds of being a combat badass, no one is. To wrap my point up- Shepard can kill Krogan warlords solo because (s)he is the PC. Shepard is not the PC because (s)he can kill Krogan Warlords solo. We shouldn't put the cart before the horse/confuse correlation and causation/reverse cause and effect when making claims that Shepard is special in ways that Ryder is not. (That's a broad point, not one aimed specifically at you.)
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 10, 2017 23:14:09 GMT
Maybe we are playing as SAM all along *twilight zone music* So that means even A.I.'s want some good banging? Geth romance confirmed finally?! Already confirmed with EDI.
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