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Post by sageoflife on Apr 17, 2017 20:58:37 GMT
Disclaimer: I myself was hoping Jaal would be available for both genders, so this is not just me looking down my nose at people who wanted something different than I did.
I remember the gap between Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3, when gay men had no options at all and we were discussing adding them and what we wanted. I remember that there was generally more focus on making Kaidan bisexual than other possibilities. This I found perfectly valid, because one of the selling points of the original trilogy was seeing romantic relationships grow over the course of multiple games. If Mass Effect 3 had restricted gay male players to entirely new options, that would have just been insulting, making it blatantly obvious that they were just giving us crumbs so we would stop complaining. So while my own personal tastes did play a part in my desire for that specific outcome, I thought it was perfectly reasonable to focus on the character whose existing content best lent itself to a relationship upgrade due to the specific context that came with that installment. That way we could at least get the illusion of being included in a major part of the franchise, even if the company's previous missteps meant that we could never get it in reality.
I remember when Dragon Age: Inquisition was released, and people were upset that Cullen was not available for both genders. This, I found less reasonable, because Dorian and Iron Bull were both options who had roughly the same amount of content as the straight options, so in that case the issue was more one of personal tastes. However, while I acknowledge that my lack of interest in Cullen played a role in my lack of sympathy toward the more extreme segments of those who wanted him to be bi, the whole thing did raise excellent discussions about larger practices involving character archetypes, the association of those archetypes with certain sexual orientations, and the desire of players to see those archetypes diversified in future games. That was a very good dialogue to have, even if some complaints simply amounted to "I didn't get the specific character I wanted."
Now, with Jaal, the problems I saw with the Bi Cullen issue are in full swing. In too many places, the focus on Jaal specifically is overshadowing the game's larger issue with content inequalities and the Unfortunate Implications in how the male/male romances were handled, such as Gil's baby subplot and the lack of male LGBT squadmates. The disproportionate focus on Jaal's sexuality makes it look like the main complaint about the gay male playerbase's options is that we did not get the specific option we wanted. That makes us all look petty, and makes it more difficult to make the company understand what our real objections are. I want to see more people talking about how little content Gil got compared to the straight and some of the lesbian options. I want to see more people contacting Bioware about the Unfortunate Implications of restricting gay male players, and only gay male players, to non-squadmate options. Putting all the focus on one specific character when we already have options doesn't help us, it just weakens our position.
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Good comedy is all about.......timing!
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Post by General Aetius on Apr 17, 2017 21:06:46 GMT
He's a frikkin alien, who would actually have sex with it? Noone would dare to in real life.
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Post by lurkinganon on Apr 17, 2017 21:25:34 GMT
Let me come back to that later.... He's a frikkin alien, who would actually have sex with it? Noone would dare to in real life. You'd be very surprised.
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Good comedy is all about.......timing!
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Post by General Aetius on Apr 17, 2017 21:26:54 GMT
Let me come back to that later.... He's a frikkin alien, who would actually have sex with it? Noone would dare to in real life. You'd be very surprised. I was just about to say: it's bestiality at the very least.
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Post by 4neu on Apr 17, 2017 21:35:56 GMT
Its akin to building a new house when the last one you built is falling apart.
Fix the Gil and Reyes issues prior to touching anything with Jaal.
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Post by lurkinganon on Apr 17, 2017 22:04:13 GMT
This was never about wanting more content for Future Backstabber Reyes and Jill's Baby Daddy. Frankly I'd be irritated they get more content than what they already have, they're terrible enough as it is. While I don't agree with the Jaal being bi thing anymore, the reasoning behind that campaign was because they wanted a squadmate to romance AND the guys wanted an alien husbando to romance, which we have never had. I don't think we can even flirt with an alien guy. I don't think Jaal is the way to go because I accept they made him as straight as possible but I do get it. Let me come back to that later.... You'd be very surprised. I was just about to say: it's bestiality at the very least. Pffft no. It's a sentient intelligent being in that scenario, not an animal. I would pick a Turian, a Drell, an Angara and yes even a Salarian over a human guy any day of the week.
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Post by MrSlothy on Apr 17, 2017 22:06:53 GMT
completely agree. we need fleshed out characters and properly paced content that was intended for gay/bi men. bydoing this bio shows they care and respect their gay/bi players, because THAT is the place they fucked up.
by converting straight character to bi (just look at how jaal behaves in game now) they are just (condescendingly) throwing a bone to petulant children, leaving real problem unaddressed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 22:14:21 GMT
Having 0 scenes and 0 sound files cut (unlike Thane and Cullen) kind of shows Jaal was written as straight and they never tried to change it. I just wish everyone would leave him alone and leave us female fans who romance him alone.
I want a gay squadmate for the guys, but let's not go changing one who never was bi in the first place. Let's add a new one instead.
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Post by 4neu on Apr 17, 2017 22:21:28 GMT
Having 0 scenes and 0 sound files cut (unlike Thane and Cullen) kind of shows Jaal was written as straight and they never tried to change it. I just wish everyone would leave him alone and leave us female fans who romance him alone. I want a gay squadmate for the guys, but let's not go changing one who never was bi in the first place. Let's add a new one instead. Or fix the ones we have that are severely lacking in the content department
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Post by sageoflife on Apr 17, 2017 22:21:37 GMT
This was never about wanting more content for Future Backstabber Reyes and Jill's Baby Daddy. Frankly I'd be irritated they get more content than what they already have, they're terrible enough as it is. While I don't agree with the Jaal being bi thing anymore, the reasoning behind that campaign was because they wanted a squadmate to romance AND the guys wanted an alien husbando to romance, which we have never had. Maybe that's how it began, and as I already said those are perfectly valid things to criticize, but at some point the complaints just became about people not getting the specific option they wanted.
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Post by lurkinganon on Apr 17, 2017 22:21:58 GMT
Having 0 scenes and 0 sound files cut (unlike Thane and Cullen) kind of shows Jaal was written as straight and they never tried to change it. I just wish everyone would leave him alone and leave us female fans who romance him alone. I want a gay squadmate for the guys, but let's not go changing one who never was bi in the first place. Let's add a new one instead. Have it be an alien. As a gay man, I really don't want another friggin human as a third gay love interest. And have you ever noticed they're always brown or vaguely tan? Whats up with that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 22:22:27 GMT
Having 0 scenes and 0 sound files cut (unlike Thane and Cullen) kind of shows Jaal was written as straight and they never tried to change it. I just wish everyone would leave him alone and leave us female fans who romance him alone. I want a gay squadmate for the guys, but let's not go changing one who never was bi in the first place. Let's add a new one instead. Or fix the ones we have that are severely lacking in the content department Reyes needs more! He's beloved by everyone and has potential for a great romance!
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by 4neu on Apr 17, 2017 22:24:05 GMT
Or fix the ones we have that are severely lacking in the content department Reyes needs more! He's beloved by everyone and has potential for a great romance! Gil too!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 22:24:13 GMT
Having 0 scenes and 0 sound files cut (unlike Thane and Cullen) kind of shows Jaal was written as straight and they never tried to change it. I just wish everyone would leave him alone and leave us female fans who romance him alone. I want a gay squadmate for the guys, but let's not go changing one who never was bi in the first place. Let's add a new one instead. Have it be an alien. As a gay man, I really don't want another friggin human as a third gay love interest. And have you ever noticed they're always brown or vaguely tan? Whats up with that? I think a Quarian or Drell would work best since we already have a Turian, and since the next story DLC is likely involving helping them, it would be a great time for this to happen. 4neu I agree! I like Gil tbh. He's a good pal to my Sara and should be happy.
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Post by Davrin's boobs on Apr 17, 2017 22:26:04 GMT
I sort agree with you. But I'm tired of this shitshow and I'm not gonna spend more time here (so save your quotations, not gonna read them because I'm exhausted) In the #MakeJaalBi hashtag we talked about the m/m problem but Jaal is the main concern because of his squadmate status. Restoring his bisexuality would bring us fair content. Reyes and Gil romance expansion? Still no squadmate = less content than other demographics DlC squadmate? Still no squadmate in the vanilla game = less content than other demographics So yeah. That's it, no more hidden mystery behind it. completely agree. we need fleshed out characters and properly paced content that was intended for gay/bi men. bydoing this bio shows they care and respect their gay/bi players, because THAT is the place they fucked up. by converting straight character to bi (just look at how jaal behaves in game now) they are just (condescendingly) throwing a bone to petulant children, leaving real problem unaddressed. Thank you por calling me petulant child because I support #MakeJaalBi, I'm gonna tattoo that in my forehead Be happy you all
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 22:29:03 GMT
Except there is nothing to restore. Jaal was straight for years (a friend who knows people at BW told me). Anything else was scrapped long before the romance scenes were made for any character.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 17, 2017 22:31:19 GMT
I love Reyes and would appreciate more content for him. He's a very cool character with some interesting plot threads that could be explored. I'd also really love a Drell/Quarian LI from DLC that could be a temp companion. The thing with Jaal is, they've said before companions have to be on disc when shipped. It's how they handled DLC companions in the past and the reason they stopped was because they said they decided it wasn't acceptable to charge again for something already on disc. So, they can't actually just make another one. It was always either change Jaal/Liam or there is no m/m option on squad. I doubt they will do that, though, so I'll keep hoping for one of the first two.
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Post by lurkinganon on Apr 17, 2017 22:36:25 GMT
I don't get the big fascination with Reyes, you're all getting played.
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Post by sageoflife on Apr 17, 2017 23:09:17 GMT
I love Reyes and would appreciate more content for him. He's a very cool character with some interesting plot threads that could be explored. I'd also really love a Drell/Quarian LI from DLC that could be a temp companion. The thing with Jaal is, they've said before companions have to be on disc when shipped. It's how they handled DLC companions in the past and the reason they stopped was because they said they decided it wasn't acceptable to charge again for something already on disc. So, they can't actually just make another one. It was always either change Jaal/Liam or there is no m/m option on squad. I doubt they will do that, though, so I'll keep hoping for one of the first two. That's why, in the long term, I want Gil to be made a squadmate in Andromeda 2, assuming Ryder returns as the PC, because I know it can't happen in this game.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 17, 2017 23:33:54 GMT
I love Reyes and would appreciate more content for him. He's a very cool character with some interesting plot threads that could be explored. I'd also really love a Drell/Quarian LI from DLC that could be a temp companion. The thing with Jaal is, they've said before companions have to be on disc when shipped. It's how they handled DLC companions in the past and the reason they stopped was because they said they decided it wasn't acceptable to charge again for something already on disc. So, they can't actually just make another one. It was always either change Jaal/Liam or there is no m/m option on squad. I doubt they will do that, though, so I'll keep hoping for one of the first two. That's why, in the long term, I want Gil to be made a squadmate in Andromeda 2, assuming Ryder returns as the PC, because I know it can't happen in this game. That's a big no thanks, from me. I want a plot relevant gay squadmate, but Gil being squad would just feel forced, like making Kallo squad. It's obvious it would only be because he's a romance. I'd rather they just made someone new that fit and that had a better connection to some aspect of the plot. Avitus would work, or somebody from the Quarian arc. Even if it's not an alien, just somebody with a history of combative experience and some plot relevant reason to be on squad. I'd like Reyes as a squadmate, too, but I'd also like a gay squadmate.
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Post by sageoflife on Apr 17, 2017 23:40:20 GMT
That's why, in the long term, I want Gil to be made a squadmate in Andromeda 2, assuming Ryder returns as the PC, because I know it can't happen in this game. That's a big no thanks, from me. I want a plot relevant gay squadmate, but Gil being squad would just feel forced, like making Kallo squad. It's obvious it would only be because he's a romance. I'd rather they just made someone new that fit and that had a better connection to some aspect of the plot. Avitus would work, or somebody from the Quarian arc. Even if it's not an alien, just somebody with a history of combative experience and some plot relevant reason to be on squad. I'd like Reyes as a squadmate, too, but I'd also like a gay squadmate. Given that the lack of a squadmate option is probably the biggest complaint, I think it would be dick move to force players who ended up getting attached to Gil to choose between him and a squadmate. On the other hand, I don't see why Gil's promotion to squadmate can't happen alongside the addition of one or two new m/m squadmate options.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 17, 2017 23:49:02 GMT
That's a big no thanks, from me. I want a plot relevant gay squadmate, but Gil being squad would just feel forced, like making Kallo squad. It's obvious it would only be because he's a romance. I'd rather they just made someone new that fit and that had a better connection to some aspect of the plot. Avitus would work, or somebody from the Quarian arc. Even if it's not an alien, just somebody with a history of combative experience and some plot relevant reason to be on squad. I'd like Reyes as a squadmate, too, but I'd also like a gay squadmate. Given that the lack of a squadmate option is probably the biggest complaint, I think it would be dick move to force players who ended up getting attached to Gil to choose between him and a squadmate. On the other hand, I don't see why Gil's promotion to squadmate can't happen alongside the addition of one or two new m/m squadmate options. I doubt everyone else will have their LIs back on squad if they continue with Ryder for another game. Most will probably get cycled, like in the OT. It's really just about adding options this time, imo. Gil just doesn't make sense to me on squad. If they add two choices (one bi, one gay) on squad besides him, then if he's back as engineer or on the Nexus with his kid/niece or nephew, I don't care either way. I just don't really want him filling a squad slot because it seems like a waste.
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Post by Puberty on Apr 18, 2017 0:17:29 GMT
I think one of the main reasons as to why the make Jaal bi thing is so big is because Jaal being bi was something that was originally planned in the first game according to some data in the game. Still, I do agree that making him bi won't really do anything in regards to making Bioware understand that m/m romances, and just LGBTQ romances in general, should be just as in depth with attention to details as any straight romance. I can see how the tag would make it seem like simply making Jaal bi with badly re-animated scenes for the male body would ultimately make Bioware think that's all they need to do to satisfy the LGBTQ community.
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Post by 4neu on Apr 18, 2017 0:30:03 GMT
There is only one "Gay" LI in the game for Male Ryder, and one "Gay" romance for Female Ryder - Both these romances are bad in terms of content. Neither have quests and both are disjointed.
Most of the focus should be put on these two, and Reyes prior to anything happening to Jaal.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 0:48:40 GMT
The romance in this game is shit anyway.
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