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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2021 23:30:59 GMT
Most of your argument is a list of krogan transgressions as listed in the game... which just adds up to the motivation for the genophage being revenge. That doesn't strengthen your argument at all... I'm even giving the "benefit" of being some sort of "benefit" to the krogan... an alternative to their being wiped out. Yes, I edit... I get interrupted frequently and I'm a bit like Mordin in how I think through problems. Adding another point: If the Catalyst knew the Crucible "could potentially" wipe out the Reapers (and all other synthetics) and allow Shepard an essentially absolute victory, why didn't he pull his Reapers away from earth as soon as the Crucible was moved in? Reapers can travel FTL twice as fast as anything else in the Galaxy. If anything has a chance of outrunning the "blast" wave, it's the Reapers themselves. So, there's another big contradiction in how the Normandy, leaving after Shepard's decision is made, manage to outrun the "blast" for a seemingly long distance. Also, if he knew the Crucible "could potentially" wipe out the Reapers (etc.), why did he reveal the procedure for doing so to Shepard in the first place. Why not give his troops even more time to escape unscathed by just letting Shepard stay unconscious (and perhaps even bleed out) next to Anderson?
I get that you don't like my argument, but I also don't care. You've yet to provide any rationale why as to why my points are incompatible with your original question. Which was (I'll remind you) "Why are players who sabotage the cure opposed to Synthesis?" I gave you in-game historical facts and evidence about the nature of the Krogan in addition to what the Catalyst tells you, which may be at odds with decisions you've already made. That's more than enough for any player to at least think twice, even if they do end up choosing to cure the genophage. I'm also aware at this point that you're simply not interested in a good faith discussion, you're just trying to argue over player decisions that you personally find abhorrent. And you know what? Fine. Cure the genophage and jump into the beam every time if that's what you want to do. I've given you reasons why a player wouldn't choose that, which is what you asked for. You're misquoting me... I never asked the question as to why players who sabotage the cure are opposed to synthesis. It was never a question. It's hypocritical regardless of how you rationalize it... and such hypocrisy makes no sense to me. I'm stating my opinion about people who maintain the genophage (a genetic modification without the consent of the subjects) but then purport that synthesis is arbitrarily wrong because it inflicts a genetic modification on people without their consent... and it's made worse because some of the organics whose autonomy people say they are protecting are the krogan... who, on the other hand, they refuse to give the back their genetic autonomy by not curing the genophage. Obvious hypocrisy is obvious; and hypocrits always have a way to ratinalize what they're doing. Hitler had a rationale for experimenting on Jews in concentration camps and a rationale for putting them there in the first place. Whites had a rationale for putting native children into residential schools. People also had a rationale for sterilizing the mentally handicapped for decades or for putting depressed women into insane asylums.
How you or anyone else individually rationalize it here is irrelevant to my opinion on the matter.
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 4, 2021 15:39:47 GMT
Based on this reply I can only surmise that you just didn't read my initial response or just don't care. So, since those two arguments were never part of my reply to you about why some players choose to sabotage the cure and then also avoid Synthesis, it seems that we're just arguing past each other. Godwin's Law already? You literally asked the question, "How" in your initial post and I assumed you wanted an a good faith answer. I'll be sure not to make that mistake again.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 4, 2021 16:18:28 GMT
The human proto-Reaper at the end of ME2 never did make any sense to me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2021 17:07:44 GMT
Based on this reply I can only surmise that you just didn't read my initial response or just don't care.So, since those two arguments were never part of my reply to you about why some players choose to sabotage the cure and then also avoid Synthesis, it seems that we're just arguing past each other. Godwin's Law already? You literally asked the question, "How" in your initial post and I assumed you wanted an a good faith answer. I'll be sure not to make that mistake again. That's exactly what I've been saying. I don't care what your rationale is... the two decisions are hypocritical of each other since the two events are based in game on the same principle... Modifying people genetically against their will. If you support one, it's hypocritical to not support the other. As I said, people always rationalize such a thing... that doesn't make it not hypocritical to do so. If all you got out of my examples was that one was a Hitler reference, I can't help you. Recently, Canada has been going through a bit of an ordeal as the bodies are being found in unmarked graves next to former Residential Schools... and as I said, the people of those times also had a rationale for doing that, along with a rationale for sterilizing the mentally handicapped. The people here during those times also had a rationale for burying my own brother in an unmarked grave... because he never drew a first breath. The rationale doesn't remove the hypocrisy over who was considered "human enough" to warrant a funeral and a gave marker. The world would be a better place if people could just spot such hypocrisies before they rationalize them. I never asked a question about it... I'm stating an opinion. I also do not care whether or not you like my opinion.
Back on topic... here's another thing that doesn't make sense. If you let Kate Bowman die in BDtS, her father memorializes her, but there is no mention of Aaron, her brother... who dies regardless of the player's decision. It makes no sense to me why a parent would memorialize one child and forget to memorialize the other. If Kate is saved, that is celebrated; but again there is no mention of Aaron having been killed.
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 4, 2021 17:48:05 GMT
the two decisions are hypocritical of each other since the two events are based in game on the same principle... And I spent a good amount of time and energy explaining to you why the logic behind the decisions (aka, the rationale) is actually not the same. You can't simply continue to insist that its the same when it isn't. You're refusing to see that the logical steps are different and that's not really my problem. Your problem is stubbornly clinging to the idea that your perception is the only correct perception. That'll end up biting you in the ass when you're talking about something other than a video game.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 4, 2021 18:07:07 GMT
I'm going to make some points without discussion of the epilogue, because you're talking about a decision Shepard has to make without knowing what will happen. Regarding Synthesis: 1. Shepard only has the Catalyst's word on what will happen Shepard also only has the Catalyst's word on what will happen with Destroy and Control. Refuse is the only one with the obvious ending.
I had a best friend in kindergarten. I haven't seen or talked to them since the 2nd grade and I am in my 30's. I said in 1st grade that we would be best friends forever. Just because at the moment there is a truce doesn't mean that truce will remain forever. It could be 10 years or 100 years or 1,000 years later.
And the evolutionary gap will be closed. In 5,000 years of recorded human history and we haven't evolved all that much. In 80 years computers have drastically evolved and improved and our modern world is based heavily around the evolution of computers. On top of that it is canonical that the thermal clip was designed by the Geth because they realized before the rest of the galaxy that more rounds fired means higher chance to wear out shields which means more kills.
Cultural differences still exist. Everyone being able to send text messages with their brain isn't the same as everyone being Irish or Buddhist.
Because the Reapers give no other choice. Sovereign didn't open negotiations. It just told you that your time is up. Harbinger didn't make a peace offering it directed the Collectors to harvest human colonies for reasons no one knows. Only when the variables were changed enough did the Reapers finally think it was time for negotiations. This is how any conflict is resolved. During the First Contact War had the Asari not stepped in the Turians and Humans would have fought a war against each other until the variables changed enough that the Alliance would have to negotiate with the Turians. Also Saren was a meat puppet on strings controlled by Sovereign. Trying to attribute anything he said as genuine is simply disingenuous. Virmire directly tells out about Indoctrination. How it is a double edge sword. The more control they apply the more their victim becomes a drooling zombie. The less control the more independent their victim can be but they can resist it more and more. Saren had the implantation surgery because he was starting to fight Sovereign's control. And Sovereign needed his pawn in peak condition so it couldn't simply crush his mind with indoctrination.
Sabotaging the cure is ignoring consent of the Krogan and supporting the manipulating their DNA to suit what the Salarians wanted rather then what the Krogan want. Which is exactly like the Catalyst ignoring the consent of the galaxy and supporting manipulating the DNA of the galaxy to suit what it wants rater then what the galaxy would want. The only difference is the scale. From effecting a single species to effecting multiple species.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2021 19:44:27 GMT
the two decisions are hypocritical of each other since the two events are based in game on the same principle... And I spent a good amount of time and energy explaining to you why the logic behind the decisions (aka, the rationale) is actually not the same. You can't simply continue to insist that its the same when it isn't. You're refusing to see that the logical steps are different and that's not really my problem. Your problem is stubbornly clinging to the idea that your perception is the only correct perception. That'll end up biting you in the ass when you're talking about something other than a video game. You're treating me still like I asked a question of you. I never asked anyone list the things I quite well aware that the game presents to us. People ALWAYS rationalize treating different groups of people differently and the game certainly allows the player to do exactly that. You're the one insisting that such different treatment of the krogan vs. all the other organic species in the galaxy is justified... and I'm rejecting that notion, yes. The krogan are every bit as much sentient organic beings as any other advanced organic species in the MEU and are, therefore, entitled to regain their genetic autonomy. You're waging revenge for past transgressions by long-dead members of the species on their unborn children because you fear what might come of it and, in so doing, you're rationalizing treating the krogan as "second-class" species.
Further, you're rationaliziing "trusting" the Catalyst regarding one ending while distrusting him regarding another... again, because you fear what might come of it. The thing you're doing though is being hypocritical in the process. As was pointed out by another poster... a DNAAN modification does not arbitrarily suggest homogenization. The DNA modification made on the krogan gave them all the same genetic marker, but there is no species in the galaxy with more differing personalities and opinons than the krogan. They've even maintained their sense of individual clans even as their numbers fell... even as Wrex tries to unify them under Urdnot (if Wrex lives). Post-ending... there is nothing in the ending slides that suggests synthesis brings about homogenization of the various organic species. They all appear as different from each other as they always were. So, again, I reject your rationalization... just as you're rejecting mine. So, I would say, you're clinging to the idea that your perception is the only correct perception.
I'm also entitled to see parallels between a video game and real life. The parallels I'm citing here are based on some personal experiences which I opted to share with you... and you're the one now trying to bite me the ass because of that sharing. Thank you so much. I never asked the question.
BTW - My Shepards who support curing the genophage (which is most of them) don't support Synthesis BECAUSE they don't support modifying ANY species genetically without their consent. That is one reason why I prefer the Control ending... because I'm told Shepard controls the Reapers, not the organics in the galaxy via that ending... and he controls them "as he sees fit"... which ultimately includes relinquishing that control once having convinced them to stop the harvest entirely. I also don't support Destroy because destroying the "all synthetics" entirely removes the ability for organic species, like the quarians, to voluntarily "synthesize" with them. It inflects damage on entire peoples without their consent as much as synthesis does.
.... and because we ARE talking about a role-playing videogame, I do also play some Shepards who don't support curing the genophage... but those are the ones most likely to also support synthesis as a peaceful solution to the Reaper War.
Why do I trust the Catalyst? When in any of the 3 games before the ending has a Reaper ever lied to Shepard?
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 4, 2021 20:34:21 GMT
You're treating me still like I asked a question of you. You asked a question. Because your question wasn't an in-game issue like "WTF are breather masks supposed to do in the vacuum of space" and instead was a player choice decision, I answered. Did you ask me personally? Of course not, but you did ask how people can't see what hypocrites they are, and I did take issue with that. Sovereign lies to you when he tells you that the Reapers are eternal. So, you know, the very first game.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2021 21:00:29 GMT
You're treating me still like I asked a question of you. You asked a question. Because your question wasn't an in-game issue like "WTF are breather masks supposed to do in the vacuum of space" and instead was a player choice decision, I answered. Did you ask me personally? Of course not, but you did ask how people can't see what hypocrites they are, and I did take issue with that. Sovereign lies to you when he tells you that the Reapers are eternal. So, you know, the very first game. No, he's not lying. He's been "alive" for many, many millions of years and he doesn't perceive aging, and doesn't foresee himself dying the way organics do. His impression of himself and others like him is, therefore, that they are eternal. He never said the Reapers could not be killed... although that is the way some organics would interpret the word "eternal." Actual definition: "having or seeming to have no end or limit." (emphasis added). It can also be interpreted from the point view that, as far as he knows, the universe has never existed without Reapers in it.
Cosmological question - Is the universe "eternal?" If not... can anything within it be considered to be eternal? What about the asari - are they lying when, knowing that any human will likely die within 10% of their own lifespan, they tell us to "embrace eternity?"
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Post by sugarless on Jul 8, 2021 11:42:10 GMT
I may have mentioned this before, but Kaidan getting a promotion that outranks Shepard is nonsensical. That's a middle finger from me, Hackett! Kaidan welcoming Shepard onto his/her ship always pinches a nerve Also rising to the top to become the second human Spectre - gimme a break. What had he done since their time in ME1/2 to deserve this other than be part of Shepard's crew, under Shepard's command. And be an arse toward Shepard at Horizon. He doesn't even have N7 training. It doesn't make sense! *rant over, runs and hides before the Kaidan fans clobber me to oblivion*
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Post by themikefest on Jul 8, 2021 12:24:48 GMT
I may have mentioned this before, but Kaidan getting a promotion that outranks Shepard is nonsensical. That's a middle finger from me, Hackett! Kaidan welcoming Shepard onto his/her ship always pinches a nerve Also rising to the top to become the second human Spectre - gimme a break. What had he done since their time in ME1/2 to deserve this other than be part of Shepard's crew, under Shepard's command. And be an arse toward Shepard at Horizon. He doesn't even have N7 training. It doesn't make sense! *rant over, runs and hides before the Kaidan fans clobber me to oblivion* Alenko's promotion I don't have problem with. Even if he outranks Shepard, Shepard is in Command of the SR2. He/she has the power when Alenko is on the ship. The second human spectre is exactly what Shepard say's, if the bottom right dialogue is chosen, window dressing. The other ME1 characters become whatever, so Bioware had to include A/K. What would be interesting is if there's a sequel to ME3, will A/K be on the SR2 or will the council have them doing spectre stuff? The Horizon scene was crap. A/K getting all stupid when the word Cerberus is mentioned and Shepard giving such a lame explanation. How different would that scene have been had the asari informed the Alliance Shepard's corpse was in the hands of Cerberus?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 13:03:02 GMT
I may have mentioned this before, but Kaidan getting a promotion that outranks Shepard is nonsensical. That's a middle finger from me, Hackett! Kaidan welcoming Shepard onto his/her ship always pinches a nerve Also rising to the top to become the second human Spectre - gimme a break. What had he done since their time in ME1/2 to deserve this other than be part of Shepard's crew, under Shepard's command. And be an arse toward Shepard at Horizon. He doesn't even have N7 training. It doesn't make sense! *rant over, runs and hides before the Kaidan fans clobber me to oblivion* I agree with you. They really didn't need to promote anyone within the Alliance beyond what they had for rank in ME1. The position given Tali in ME2 was fine given that she had completed her pilgrimage, but there should have never been a mention after her LM that they were suddenly considering her to be an Admiral... and no way should she have been an Admiral in ME3. I was fine with Wrex becoming head of Clan Urdnot, given his father's position before him and his age and experience. Shepard should have also remained as the only human spectre throughout the Trilogy. If anyone should have become a spectre, it should have been Garrus (if choices were such that Garrus indicates that he's going to retry for it).
Shepard should have never had the choice who to appoint as Councillor in ME1. Saving or not saving the council should have only determined whether the council was all human or not... with the ME3 dynamic playing out differently if the "human coup" had occurred in ME1... which would have added a lot of replay value to ME3 (IMO).. Anderson should have always been Udina's assistant after stepping down from command of Normandy. Shepard's spectre status should have been reinstated in all cases in ME2... and remained intact in ME3, with Shepard not rejoining the Alliance after ME2 and Normandy being a Spectre's ship (i.e. reporting only to the Council, not Hackett). The tenet of a Spectre being able to operate on one's own authority, above the law, should have been maintained... meaning that Shepard could not be prosecuted for working with Cerberus in ME2. The Council should have been spearheading the war effort on behalf of all species... quite simply, the meme about the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers and not preparing, yada yada yada was way overdone (even in ME1). How different and more cohesive the story would have been if they had just let go of it and replace the "stereotyping of government clowns" with something more reasonable.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 8, 2021 18:33:13 GMT
I may have mentioned this before, but Kaidan getting a promotion that outranks Shepard is nonsensical. That's a middle finger from me, Hackett! Kaidan welcoming Shepard onto his/her ship always pinches a nerve Also rising to the top to become the second human Spectre - gimme a break. What had he done since their time in ME1/2 to deserve this other than be part of Shepard's crew, under Shepard's command. And be an arse toward Shepard at Horizon. He doesn't even have N7 training. It doesn't make sense! *rant over, runs and hides before the Kaidan fans clobber me to oblivion* I agree with you. They really didn't need to promote anyone within the Alliance beyond what they had for rank in ME1. The position given Tali in ME2 was fine given that she had completed her pilgrimage, but there should have never been a mention after her LM that they were suddenly considering her to be an Admiral... and no way should she have been an Admiral in ME3. I was fine with Wrex becoming head of Clan Urdnot, given his father's position before him and his age and experience. Shepard should have also remained as the only human spectre throughout the Trilogy. If anyone should have become a spectre, it should have been Garrus (if choices were such that Garrus indicates that he's going to retry for it).
Shepard should have never had the choice who to appoint as Councillor in ME1. Saving or not saving the council should have only determined whether the council was all human or not... with the ME3 dynamic playing out differently if the "human coup" had occurred in ME1... which would have added a lot of replay value to ME3 (IMO).. Anderson should have always been Udina's assistant after stepping down from command of Normandy. Shepard's spectre status should have been reinstated in all cases in ME2... and remained intact in ME3, with Shepard not rejoining the Alliance after ME2 and Normandy being a Spectre's ship (i.e. reporting only to the Council, not Hackett). The tenet of a Spectre being able to operate on one's own authority, above the law, should have been maintained... meaning that Shepard could not be prosecuted for working with Cerberus in ME2. The Council should have been spearheading the war effort on behalf of all species... quite simply, the meme about the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers and not preparing, yada yada yada was way overdone (even in ME1). How different and more cohesive the story would have been if they had just let go of it and replace the "stereotyping of government clowns" with something more reasonable.
As I am replaying MELE 3 right now, I agree with most of this but also, most of it is not necessarily a deal breaker for me.
- Williams/Alenko getting promoted is fine by me. fter all, why not? The only reason Shepard is never getting formally promoted by the Alliance is IMO at first because /she is a Council Spectre now. This may have stalled climbing up the Alliance career ladder since Shep now (at least partially) has to answer to the Council.
- Shepard and the Councilor decision: At the end of ME1, the asari councilor (if you rescued her, don't quite remember how it is when you let them die) doesn't say that you get to pick a Councilor. You get to give your recommendation which - she predicts - will carry quite some weight. True, at that moment they all act like it was decided here and now and the picked person will give sort of a victory speech but I like to head canon that there was some sort of vote within the Alliance afterwards and your "endorsement" makes the difference in tha vote. But that's just how i like to see it.
- An all human council (if you didn't save the Destiny Ascension) would have made no sense whatsoever to me. I just cannot imagine the other races giving up their power over galactic affairs just like that, no matter what the humans did or didn't do. It was perfectly fine the way it was handled (except Udina's BS at the end of ME1 that is of course).
- Shepard's Spectre status ... well, at elast it's up to you. I pretty much always let Shepard be reinstated (except for one asshole Shepard I played once for the LULZ). The dialogue works pretty well, even for renegades, when they just say pragmatically "no need to burn bridges".
- I completely agree that the forced return to Alliance custody between Arrival and ME3 doesn't work for all Shepards (especially renegades). Ah well, they needed some sort of common denominator to keep the variations in ME3 in check I guess. I didn't think it was as bad as ME2 forcing you to work with TIM but still, it wasn't very elegant, that's for sure.
- As for Shepard's Spectre authority and him not being prosecuted for working with Cerberus ... uh, that's pretty mich what happens, isn't it? Shepard is in Alliance custody more or less voluntarily as far as I can gather (though it's never made entirely clear). Also, if you played Arrival, a big part of it is the whole issues with the Bahak system and keeping Shepard out of sight to avoid conflict with the batarians. Cerberus never seemed to me that much of an issue for anyone actually (not even Chackwas for example). If anything, I'd say it was downplayed.
- The Council dragging their feet was definitely exaggerated, especially in ME2 it was quite ridiculous. In ME3, at least I can head canon that they are only reluctant because each of the council nations already has their hands full dealing with the reapers on their own territory. It's a bit like if aliens would invade earth today and already attack every nation on earth. It's super bad in Europe but they are also already attacking parts of the US. there was an emergency session of the UN and the Europeans were to ask the US for troops, I think there would be reluctance there as well since they'd (understandably) wanting to prioritize the defense of their own borders first. And since the council races come around eventually if you don't piss them off, I think the particular situation in ME3 fine. Overall though, I do agree that politicians in ME are often displayed way to clownish. My favorite depiction of them occurs in Revelation, when Ambassador Goyle negotiates the aftermath of the humans illegal AI research with the council. All players there come across as capable and intelligent and you can see how they all struggle to make the best (mostly for their side but also somewhat in general) of a difficult situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 18:38:09 GMT
I agree with you. They really didn't need to promote anyone within the Alliance beyond what they had for rank in ME1. The position given Tali in ME2 was fine given that she had completed her pilgrimage, but there should have never been a mention after her LM that they were suddenly considering her to be an Admiral... and no way should she have been an Admiral in ME3. I was fine with Wrex becoming head of Clan Urdnot, given his father's position before him and his age and experience. Shepard should have also remained as the only human spectre throughout the Trilogy. If anyone should have become a spectre, it should have been Garrus (if choices were such that Garrus indicates that he's going to retry for it).
Shepard should have never had the choice who to appoint as Councillor in ME1. Saving or not saving the council should have only determined whether the council was all human or not... with the ME3 dynamic playing out differently if the "human coup" had occurred in ME1... which would have added a lot of replay value to ME3 (IMO).. Anderson should have always been Udina's assistant after stepping down from command of Normandy. Shepard's spectre status should have been reinstated in all cases in ME2... and remained intact in ME3, with Shepard not rejoining the Alliance after ME2 and Normandy being a Spectre's ship (i.e. reporting only to the Council, not Hackett). The tenet of a Spectre being able to operate on one's own authority, above the law, should have been maintained... meaning that Shepard could not be prosecuted for working with Cerberus in ME2. The Council should have been spearheading the war effort on behalf of all species... quite simply, the meme about the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers and not preparing, yada yada yada was way overdone (even in ME1). How different and more cohesive the story would have been if they had just let go of it and replace the "stereotyping of government clowns" with something more reasonable.
As I am replaying MELE 3 right now, I agree with most of this but also, most of it is not necessarily a deal breaker for me.
- Williams/Alenko getting promoted is fine by me. fter all, why not? The only reason Shepard is never getting formally promoted by the Alliance is IMO at first because /she is a Council Spectre now. This may have stalled climbing up the Alliance career ladder since Shep now (at least partially) has to answer to the Council.
- Shepard and the Councilor decision: At the end of ME1, the asari councilor (if you rescued her, don't quite remember how it is when you let them die) doesn't say that you get to pick a Councilor. You get to give your recommendation which - she predicts - will carry quite some weight. True, at that moment they all act like it was decided here and now and the picked person will give sort of a victory speech but I like to head canon that there was some sort of vote within the Alliance afterwards and your "endorsement" makes the difference in tha vote. But that's just how i like to see it.
- An all human council (if you didn't save the Destiny Ascension) would have made no sense whatsoever to me. I just cannot imagine the other races giving up their power over galactic affairs just like that, no matter what the humans did or didn't do. It was perfectly fine the way it was handled (except Udina's BS at the end of ME1 that is of course).
- Shepard's Spectre status ... well, at elast it's up to you. I pretty much always let Shepard be reinstated (except for one asshole Shepard I played once for the LULZ). The dialogue works pretty well, even for renegades, when they just say pragmatically "no need to burn bridges".
- I completely agree that the forced return to Alliance custody between Arrival and ME3 doesn't work for all Shepards (especially renegades). Ah well, they needed some sort of common denominator to keep the variations in ME3 in check I guess. I didn't think it was as bad as ME2 forcing you to work with TIM but still, it wasn't very elegant, that's for sure.
- As for Shepard's Spectre authority and him not being prosecuted for working with Cerberus ... uh, that's pretty mich what happens, isn't it? Shepard is in Alliance custody more or less voluntarily as far as I can gather (though it's never made entirely clear). Also, if you played Arrival, a big part of it is the whole issues with the Bahak system and keeping Shepard out of sight to avoid conflict with the batarians. Cerberus never seemed to me that much of an issue for anyone actually (not even Chackwas for example). If anything, I'd say it was downplayed.
- The Council dragging their feet was definitely exaggerated, especially in ME2 it was quite ridiculous. In ME3, at least I can head canon that they are only reluctant because each of the council nations already has their hands full dealing with the reapers on their own territory. It's a bit like if aliens would invade earth today and already attack every nation on earth. It's super bad in Europe but they are also already attacking parts of the US. there was an emergency session of the UN and the Europeans were to ask the US for troops, I think there would be reluctance there as well since they'd (understandably) wanting to prioritize the defense of their own borders first. And since the council races come around eventually if you don't piss them off, I think the particular situation in ME3 fine. Overall though, I do agree that politicians in ME are often displayed way to clownish. My favorite depiction of them occurs in Revelation, when Ambassador Goyle negotiates the aftermath of the humans illegal AI research with the council. All players there come across as capable and intelligent and you can see how they all struggle to make the best (mostly for their side but also somewhat in general) of a difficult situation.
None of it's a "deal breaker" because the story is now what it is. These are just my ideas how the story could have been "more cohesive."
Any Shepard who is reinstated as a spectre in ME2 has no business finding themselves in an Alliance detention center at the start of ME3, regardless of doing Arrival or not doing Arrival... if the tenet that spectres operate above the law is worth anything.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 8, 2021 18:47:10 GMT
As I am replaying MELE 3 right now, I agree with most of this but also, most of it is not necessarily a deal breaker for me.
- Williams/Alenko getting promoted is fine by me. fter all, why not? The only reason Shepard is never getting formally promoted by the Alliance is IMO at first because /she is a Council Spectre now. This may have stalled climbing up the Alliance career ladder since Shep now (at least partially) has to answer to the Council.
- Shepard and the Councilor decision: At the end of ME1, the asari councilor (if you rescued her, don't quite remember how it is when you let them die) doesn't say that you get to pick a Councilor. You get to give your recommendation which - she predicts - will carry quite some weight. True, at that moment they all act like it was decided here and now and the picked person will give sort of a victory speech but I like to head canon that there was some sort of vote within the Alliance afterwards and your "endorsement" makes the difference in tha vote. But that's just how i like to see it.
- An all human council (if you didn't save the Destiny Ascension) would have made no sense whatsoever to me. I just cannot imagine the other races giving up their power over galactic affairs just like that, no matter what the humans did or didn't do. It was perfectly fine the way it was handled (except Udina's BS at the end of ME1 that is of course).
- Shepard's Spectre status ... well, at elast it's up to you. I pretty much always let Shepard be reinstated (except for one asshole Shepard I played once for the LULZ). The dialogue works pretty well, even for renegades, when they just say pragmatically "no need to burn bridges".
- I completely agree that the forced return to Alliance custody between Arrival and ME3 doesn't work for all Shepards (especially renegades). Ah well, they needed some sort of common denominator to keep the variations in ME3 in check I guess. I didn't think it was as bad as ME2 forcing you to work with TIM but still, it wasn't very elegant, that's for sure.
- As for Shepard's Spectre authority and him not being prosecuted for working with Cerberus ... uh, that's pretty mich what happens, isn't it? Shepard is in Alliance custody more or less voluntarily as far as I can gather (though it's never made entirely clear). Also, if you played Arrival, a big part of it is the whole issues with the Bahak system and keeping Shepard out of sight to avoid conflict with the batarians. Cerberus never seemed to me that much of an issue for anyone actually (not even Chackwas for example). If anything, I'd say it was downplayed.
- The Council dragging their feet was definitely exaggerated, especially in ME2 it was quite ridiculous. In ME3, at least I can head canon that they are only reluctant because each of the council nations already has their hands full dealing with the reapers on their own territory. It's a bit like if aliens would invade earth today and already attack every nation on earth. It's super bad in Europe but they are also already attacking parts of the US. there was an emergency session of the UN and the Europeans were to ask the US for troops, I think there would be reluctance there as well since they'd (understandably) wanting to prioritize the defense of their own borders first. And since the council races come around eventually if you don't piss them off, I think the particular situation in ME3 fine. Overall though, I do agree that politicians in ME are often displayed way to clownish. My favorite depiction of them occurs in Revelation, when Ambassador Goyle negotiates the aftermath of the humans illegal AI research with the council. All players there come across as capable and intelligent and you can see how they all struggle to make the best (mostly for their side but also somewhat in general) of a difficult situation.
None of it's a "deal breaker" because the story is now what it is. These are just my ideas how the story could have been "more cohesive."
Any Shepard who is reinstated as a spectre in ME2 has no business finding themselves in an Alliance detention center at the start of ME3, regardless of doing Arrival or not doing Arrival... if the tenet that spectres operate above the law is worth anything.
Yea, it's just a list of how I justify all this stuff in my head canon.
As for the custody thing, as I said, at least my (mostly) paragon Shepard went there voluntarily. He even says it to Hackett after Arrival. For one thing, he knows that a conflict between the Alliance and the batarians simply cannot happen right now, so he'll do everything he can to prevent it. Also, after meeting the council in ME2, he realized that he'll not convince them of the reaper thread short of bringing another reaper to them but within the Alliance, at least he's got Hackett and Anderson believing him, so returning there to gather support seems like the better option. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work out as the beginning of ME3 shows. Anyway, that's how I explain it for my "usual" Shepard. But again, I do agree, this explanation doesn't work for every Shepard.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 20:19:37 GMT
None of it's a "deal breaker" because the story is now what it is. These are just my ideas how the story could have been "more cohesive."
Any Shepard who is reinstated as a spectre in ME2 has no business finding themselves in an Alliance detention center at the start of ME3, regardless of doing Arrival or not doing Arrival... if the tenet that spectres operate above the law is worth anything.
Yea, it's just a list of how I justify all this stuff in my head canon.
As for the custody thing, as I said, at least my (mostly) paragon Shepard went there voluntarily. He even says it to Hackett after Arrival. For one thing, he knows that a conflict between the Alliance and the batarians simply cannot happen right now, so he'll do everything he can to prevent it. Also, after meeting the council in ME2, he realized that he'll not convince them of the reaper thread short of bringing another reaper to them but within the Alliance, at least he's got Hackett and Anderson believing him, so returning there to gather support seems like the better option. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work out as the beginning of ME3 shows. Anyway, that's how I explain it for my "usual" Shepard. But again, I do agree, this explanation doesn't work for every Shepard.
I still say, regardless, it breaks the tenet that Spectres operate above the law. Voluntary "house arrest" shouldn't be possible either as Spectres are expected to act like Spectres. Had Bioware not been thinking along of the lines of putting Shepard back into the Alliance, they could have approached the Batarian thing quite differently... with Shepard perhaps starting his development of alliances with negotiations with the Batarians to prevent a war. The negotiations could be going badly until proof shows up at the door in the form of invading Reapers and Shepard helping to get key members of the Hegenomy off earth in Normandy... heck, we might have even been able to get a mission on Khar'shan or investigating the Leviathan of Dis and finding the plans for the Crucible there instead of on Mars.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 8, 2021 20:22:20 GMT
Yea, it's just a list of how I justify all this stuff in my head canon.
As for the custody thing, as I said, at least my (mostly) paragon Shepard went there voluntarily. He even says it to Hackett after Arrival. For one thing, he knows that a conflict between the Alliance and the batarians simply cannot happen right now, so he'll do everything he can to prevent it. Also, after meeting the council in ME2, he realized that he'll not convince them of the reaper thread short of bringing another reaper to them but within the Alliance, at least he's got Hackett and Anderson believing him, so returning there to gather support seems like the better option. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work out as the beginning of ME3 shows. Anyway, that's how I explain it for my "usual" Shepard. But again, I do agree, this explanation doesn't work for every Shepard.
I still say, regardless, it breaks the tenet that Spectres operate above the law. Voluntary "house arrest" shouldn't be possible either as Spectres are expected to act like Spectres. Had Bioware not been thinking along of the lines of putting Shepard back into the Alliance, they could have approached the Batarian thing quite differently... with Shepard perhaps starting his development of alliances with negotiations with the Batarians to prevent a war. The negotiations could be going badly until proof shows up at the door in the form of invading Reapers and Shepard helping to get key members of the Hegenomy off earth in Normandy... I've often thought about this too but since Abby tells them to shove their Spectrehood up their collective butt puckers. Also while the Spectres are nominally above the law we also know from the whole Saren thing that Spectres can still be stripped of that status by the Council if they go rogue, and I also believe that either way you have to get your status reinstated at the start of ME 3 which means that they stripped it...I think?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2021 21:49:02 GMT
I still say, regardless, it breaks the tenet that Spectres operate above the law. Voluntary "house arrest" shouldn't be possible either as Spectres are expected to act like Spectres. Had Bioware not been thinking along of the lines of putting Shepard back into the Alliance, they could have approached the Batarian thing quite differently... with Shepard perhaps starting his development of alliances with negotiations with the Batarians to prevent a war. The negotiations could be going badly until proof shows up at the door in the form of invading Reapers and Shepard helping to get key members of the Hegenomy off earth in Normandy... I've often thought about this too but since Abby tells them to shove their Spectrehood up their collective butt puckers. Also while the Spectres are nominally above the law we also know from the whole Saren thing that Spectres can still be stripped of that status by the Council if they go rogue, and I also believe that either way you have to get your status reinstated at the start of ME 3 which means that they stripped it...I think? Actually, if you maintain your spectre status in ME2, in ME3 the Turian Councillor will say he's been told the Council will "uphold" Shepard's spectre status... so it's not been stripped... at least officially at that point.
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Post by sugarless on Jul 9, 2021 1:17:18 GMT
I may have mentioned this before, but Kaidan getting a promotion that outranks Shepard is nonsensical. That's a middle finger from me, Hackett! Kaidan welcoming Shepard onto his/her ship always pinches a nerve Also rising to the top to become the second human Spectre - gimme a break. What had he done since their time in ME1/2 to deserve this other than be part of Shepard's crew, under Shepard's command. And be an arse toward Shepard at Horizon. He doesn't even have N7 training. It doesn't make sense! *rant over, runs and hides before the Kaidan fans clobber me to oblivion* Alenko's promotion I don't have problem with. Even if he outranks Shepard, Shepard is in Command of the SR2. He/she has the power when Alenko is on the ship. His promotion bothers me, he doesn't deserve it Shepard has to cope with a lot more pressure, handles all of the combat/negotiations, cops more flak and still doesn't get promoted even by the end of ME3. It's not fair and it doesn't make sense.
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Post by sugarless on Jul 9, 2021 1:21:26 GMT
They really didn't need to promote anyone within the Alliance beyond what they had for rank in ME1. The position given Tali in ME2 was fine given that she had completed her pilgrimage, but there should have never been a mention after her LM that they were suddenly considering her to be an Admiral... and no way should she have been an Admiral in ME3. I was fine with Wrex becoming head of Clan Urdnot, given his father's position before him and his age and experience. Shepard should have also remained as the only human spectre throughout the Trilogy. If anyone should have become a spectre, it should have been Garrus (if choices were such that Garrus indicates that he's going to retry for it).
Shepard should have never had the choice who to appoint as Councillor in ME1. Saving or not saving the council should have only determined whether the council was all human or not... with the ME3 dynamic playing out differently if the "human coup" had occurred in ME1... which would have added a lot of replay value to ME3 (IMO).. Anderson should have always been Udina's assistant after stepping down from command of Normandy. Shepard's spectre status should have been reinstated in all cases in ME2... and remained intact in ME3, with Shepard not rejoining the Alliance after ME2 and Normandy being a Spectre's ship (i.e. reporting only to the Council, not Hackett). The tenet of a Spectre being able to operate on one's own authority, above the law, should have been maintained... meaning that Shepard could not be prosecuted for working with Cerberus in ME2. The Council should have been spearheading the war effort on behalf of all species... quite simply, the meme about the Council not believing Shepard about the Reapers and not preparing, yada yada yada was way overdone (even in ME1). How different and more cohesive the story would have been if they had just let go of it and replace the "stereotyping of government clowns" with something more reasonable. Great post, agree with you completely! - Williams/Alenko getting promoted is fine by me. fter all, why not? The only reason Shepard is never getting formally promoted by the Alliance is IMO at first because /she is a Council Spectre now. This may have stalled climbing up the Alliance career ladder since Shep now (at least partially) has to answer to the Council. But it bothers me. Anderson was answering to the council as an active Alliance Admiral. Shepard deserved a promotion over Alenko. Period.
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Post by KrrKs on Jul 9, 2021 16:40:40 GMT
- Williams/Alenko getting promoted is fine by me. fter all, why not? The only reason Shepard is never getting formally promoted by the Alliance is IMO at first because /she is a Council Spectre now. This may have stalled climbing up the Alliance career ladder since Shep now (at least partially) has to answer to the Council. But it bothers me. Anderson was answering to the council as an active Alliance Admiral. Shepard deserved a promotion over Alenko. Period. Why though?
Kaidan was already a (likely senior) Staff Lieutenant in ME1, only one rank below Shepard. While Shepard probably only got promoted to Lieutenant Commander due to hero/survivor/ruthless bonus from their military background.
I completely agree with AnDromedary that the Alliance probably didn't promot Shepard after the battle of the citadel due to the spectre status. And pretty much after that Shepard dies (can't get promoted). Then Shepard returns and works for/with Cerberus. And later is detained. (again: Can't get promoted)
Meanwhile the VS on the other hand goes on to do who knows what that gets them promoted once, and ends up with the anti cerberus investigation. Kaidan also leads a biotic task force, (again doing who knows what, likely classified).
So there are several reasons why Shepard does not get a promotion, while Kaidan does. In his case this is completely justified, imo. Ashley getting promoted 4 times or something in the same timeframe is more questionable, but Kaidan absolutely does stuff to get promoted to his ME3 rank.
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Post by sugarless on Jul 9, 2021 21:28:17 GMT
But it bothers me. Anderson was answering to the council as an active Alliance Admiral. Shepard deserved a promotion over Alenko. Period. Why though?
Kaidan was already a (likely senior) Staff Lieutenant in ME1, only one rank below Shepard. While Shepard probably only got promoted to Lieutenant Commander due to hero/survivor/ruthless bonus from their military background.
I completely agree with AnDromedary that the Alliance probably didn't promot Shepard after the battle of the citadel due to the spectre status. And pretty much after that Shepard dies (can't get promoted). Then Shepard returns and works for/with Cerberus. And later is detained. (again: Can't get promoted)
Meanwhile the VS on the other hand goes on to do who knows what that gets them promoted once, and ends up with the anti cerberus investigation. Kaidan also leads a biotic task force, (again doing who knows what, likely classified).
So there are several reasons why Shepard does not get a promotion, while Kaidan does. In his case this is completely justified, imo. Ashley getting promoted 4 times or something in the same timeframe is more questionable, but Kaidan absolutely does stuff to get promoted to his ME3 rank.
Kaidan did bugger all in the time that Shepard was with Cerberus. The only notable thing, was his presence in Horizon, failing to calibrate those giant guns. Then totally dissing Shepard afterward. In terms of actual importance, he does zilch.
By the end of Arrival and what happened on Project Base, Hackett expects Shepard to report back to earth in full dress blues to face the music, meaning unofficially he still considers him/her an active Alliance soldier. So by at least mid ME3 when Shepard is in the thick of it, negotiating help for Earth, trying to unite factions against the Reapers, she/he should have been promoted.
But this is just my opinion. It doesn't make sense to me and you're never going to change my mind about this
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2021 22:04:03 GMT
Why though?
Kaidan was already a (likely senior) Staff Lieutenant in ME1, only one rank below Shepard. While Shepard probably only got promoted to Lieutenant Commander due to hero/survivor/ruthless bonus from their military background.
I completely agree with AnDromedary that the Alliance probably didn't promot Shepard after the battle of the citadel due to the spectre status. And pretty much after that Shepard dies (can't get promoted). Then Shepard returns and works for/with Cerberus. And later is detained. (again: Can't get promoted)
Meanwhile the VS on the other hand goes on to do who knows what that gets them promoted once, and ends up with the anti cerberus investigation. Kaidan also leads a biotic task force, (again doing who knows what, likely classified).
So there are several reasons why Shepard does not get a promotion, while Kaidan does. In his case this is completely justified, imo. Ashley getting promoted 4 times or something in the same timeframe is more questionable, but Kaidan absolutely does stuff to get promoted to his ME3 rank.
Kaidan did bugger all in the time that Shepard was with Cerberus. The only notable thing, was his presence in Horizon, failing to calibrate those giant guns. Then totally dissing Shepard afterward. In terms of actual importance, he does zilch.
By the end of Arrival and what happened on Project Base, Hackett expects Shepard to report back to earth in full dress blues to face the music, meaning unofficially he still considers him/her an active Alliance soldier. So by at least mid ME3 when Shepard is in the thick of it, negotiating help for Earth, trying to unite factions against the Reapers, she/he should have been promoted.
But this is just my opinion. It doesn't make sense to me and you're never going to change my mind about this Hackett is really two-faced when it comes to what he expects of Shepard. He makes it clear that the Aratoht thing is not an Alliance op but a personal favor for him... and he should know if he's asking a spectre that part of it is that spectres are above the law. He reallly has no right to insist Shepard appear in dress blues to face the music. If he has a complaint, he should be taking that complaint to the Council (which is what Udina and ANderson did with Saren). The Batarians should also be taking their issues about what Shepard did up with the Council since Shepard is a spectre and not part of the Alliance at that time.
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Post by sugarless on Jul 9, 2021 22:19:15 GMT
Kaidan did bugger all in the time that Shepard was with Cerberus. The only notable thing, was his presence in Horizon, failing to calibrate those giant guns. Then totally dissing Shepard afterward. In terms of actual importance, he does zilch.
By the end of Arrival and what happened on Project Base, Hackett expects Shepard to report back to earth in full dress blues to face the music, meaning unofficially he still considers him/her an active Alliance soldier. So by at least mid ME3 when Shepard is in the thick of it, negotiating help for Earth, trying to unite factions against the Reapers, she/he should have been promoted.
But this is just my opinion. It doesn't make sense to me and you're never going to change my mind about this Hackett is really two-faced when it comes to what he expects of Shepard. He makes it clear that the Aratoht thing is not an Alliance op but a personal favor for him... and he should know if he's asking a spectre that part of it is that spectres are above the law. He reallly has no right to insist Shepard appear in dress blues to face the music. If he has a complaint, he should be taking that ocmplain to the Council (which is what Udina and ANderson did with Saren). Agreed! By the end of that harrowing mission I felt drained, used, trapped and blamed for doing Hackett a favour.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 9, 2021 22:53:16 GMT
ah yes, facing the music. It was more like facing the clowns in the circus calling themselves Alliance. If there was to be any music, my Shepard would have a ghettoblaster on his/her shoulder jamming to some Ted Nugent when facing the committee of clowns and the one standing near him/her.
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