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Post by haolyn on Sept 16, 2017 20:04:32 GMT
it doesn't matter how unique or special bioware make their games, what matters is how well their special games SELL. that's what will dictate how many other games they get to make. having a specialty is all well and good, but bioware is a business first and they are going to think like one. multiplayer microtransactions are the big cash generator now so that's what they're going to do regardless of how special their small group of fans think their current games are. awards don't print money. fans crying on social media don't print money. if you expect video game companies to think about "art" first and profit second you're going to be massively disappointed It does matter on what's unique and what isn't as that's what sells. You can follow a trend all day but if you're not the original or doing something unique in the process you're going to be second fiddle. I full well know sales determines how long you stay relevant but my point is sales don't come unless you offer something no one else does. I also know poor sales can deter a developer away from what they were doing and going back to why people play their games. As as I said though, bioware has always been for a niche group cause they've never been top sellers. They make their money by meeting THEIR niche group and now we see them getting away from it and they risk shutting down. There's a reason people have been complaining for years how they're no longer the same bioware people used to know, there's a reason bioware has become under fire and why Andromeda was a disappointment and why one of their own studios got shut down and then merged into EA. If money is what matters then bioware has been failing which is why I don't understand the point in money mattering. If money was the real issue bioware would go back to being bioware, not chasing opportunities and "hoping" it works. Anthem is a must succeed situation cause that reputation can't take much more. so your argument is that bioware is losing money because they made andromeda to continue catering to their niche group of fans..... and the solution is to continue to cater to their niche group of fans? also love how apparently bioware has not been the same bioware for years even while they were making their niche games. this exact same tired discussion happens after every single one of their games drops. "i don't like x new thing bioware did so they are not the same bioware! they should continue to make the exact same game over and over again and never innovate or try to attract more customers or else they are betraying their real fans!!" bioware's reputation will be just fine. anthem is already getting a ton of attention from people who have never played bioware games before. it's only the butthurt niche fans that are upset about it and think the sky is falling down because bioware isn't catering specifically to them
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Post by ShadowAngel on Sept 17, 2017 4:30:38 GMT
It does matter on what's unique and what isn't as that's what sells. You can follow a trend all day but if you're not the original or doing something unique in the process you're going to be second fiddle. I full well know sales determines how long you stay relevant but my point is sales don't come unless you offer something no one else does. I also know poor sales can deter a developer away from what they were doing and going back to why people play their games. As as I said though, bioware has always been for a niche group cause they've never been top sellers. They make their money by meeting THEIR niche group and now we see them getting away from it and they risk shutting down. There's a reason people have been complaining for years how they're no longer the same bioware people used to know, there's a reason bioware has become under fire and why Andromeda was a disappointment and why one of their own studios got shut down and then merged into EA. If money is what matters then bioware has been failing which is why I don't understand the point in money mattering. If money was the real issue bioware would go back to being bioware, not chasing opportunities and "hoping" it works. Anthem is a must succeed situation cause that reputation can't take much more. so your argument is that bioware is losing money because they made andromeda to continue catering to their niche group of fans..... and the solution is to continue to cater to their niche group of fans? also love how apparently bioware has not been the same bioware for years even while they were making their niche games. this exact same tired discussion happens after every single one of their games drops. "i don't like x new thing bioware did so they are not the same bioware! they should continue to make the exact same game over and over again and never innovate or try to attract more customers or else they are betraying their real fans!!" bioware's reputation will be just fine. anthem is already getting a ton of attention from people who have never played bioware games before. it's only the butthurt niche fans that are upset about it and think the sky is falling down because bioware isn't catering specifically to them You missed the point entirely. I could get into details on how Andromeda really doesn't cater to a niche group however. My point was ever since D2/ME2 there has been people slowly losing interest in bioware because of them ditching their old school RPG approach and going more action focused and expanding more into what other games do I.E. the open world approach. Even I see very few comparisons between a ME1 and a ME:A. They share the same universes, but play very differently to me. Some aspects better, some worse, and some that are just head scratchers. if their reputation was "really fine" then there wouldn't be shut down studios, the worry on what happens if Anthem fails and the backlash over Andromeda itself. I'm not going to just pretend like nothing's going on lol. i do however agree that it is the hot heads that feel bioware is betraying people with Anthem being a thing, I believe in creative freedom and I too would get tired of doing the same thing for so long if I was in Biowares shoes. I'm optimistic Anthem plays out well.
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Post by haolyn on Sept 17, 2017 9:12:22 GMT
so your argument is that bioware is losing money because they made andromeda to continue catering to their niche group of fans..... and the solution is to continue to cater to their niche group of fans? also love how apparently bioware has not been the same bioware for years even while they were making their niche games. this exact same tired discussion happens after every single one of their games drops. "i don't like x new thing bioware did so they are not the same bioware! they should continue to make the exact same game over and over again and never innovate or try to attract more customers or else they are betraying their real fans!!" bioware's reputation will be just fine. anthem is already getting a ton of attention from people who have never played bioware games before. it's only the butthurt niche fans that are upset about it and think the sky is falling down because bioware isn't catering specifically to them You missed the point entirely. I could get into details on how Andromeda really doesn't cater to a niche group however. My point was ever since D2/ME2 there has been people slowly losing interest in bioware because of them ditching their old school RPG approach and going more action focused and expanding more into what other games do I.E. the open world approach. Even I see very few comparisons between a ME1 and a ME:A. They share the same universes, but play very differently to me. Some aspects better, some worse, and some that are just head scratchers. if their reputation was "really fine" then there wouldn't be shut down studios, the worry on what happens if Anthem fails and the backlash over Andromeda itself. I'm not going to just pretend like nothing's going on lol. i do however agree that it is the hot heads that feel bioware is betraying people with Anthem being a thing, I believe in creative freedom and I too would get tired of doing the same thing for so long if I was in Biowares shoes. I'm optimistic Anthem plays out well. that's funny because i remember the discourse when ME1 came out that specifically said bioware is "ditching their old school RPG approach and going more action focused and expanding more into what other games do". and yet if they hadn't done that we would have never gotten the ME trilogy. the OT is successful BECAUSE they ditched the old-school RPG approach to appeal to a larger group of fans. bioware has always managed to stay relevant by ditching niche aspects from their games and going mainstream. anthem is just the current evolution of that strategy. i mean, you complain about open world, but DAI was also open world and yet it was critically and financially successful so that's clearly not the problem here people are acting like them releasing a poorly received and tepidly sold game like MEA is the end of times for the whole bioware brand, and yet even as BW Montreal was absorbed by another EA studio the rest of bioware is still getting money from EA and hiring and working on at least two other games. i bet lots of other studios wish they were going through hard times like that. as for the andromeda "backlash" i guarantee that if bioware announced tomorrow they were making another mass effect game a shitton of people would preorder it the second the announcement drops. gamers are fickle like that. bioware is just waiting out this shitshow and dangling new toys in front of people until no one cares about andromeda anymore, just like almost no one cares about da2 or the me3 endings anymore
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 17, 2017 11:58:16 GMT
You missed the point entirely. I could get into details on how Andromeda really doesn't cater to a niche group however. My point was ever since D2/ME2 there has been people slowly losing interest in bioware because of them ditching their old school RPG approach and going more action focused and expanding more into what other games do I.E. the open world approach. Even I see very few comparisons between a ME1 and a ME:A. They share the same universes, but play very differently to me. Some aspects better, some worse, and some that are just head scratchers. The idea that people have been losing interest in Bioware since ME2/DA2 doesn't really hold water. ME3 and DAI both improved in terms of release sales compared to their predecessors. Perhaps some section of the older fans have been losing interest, but Bioware appears to have been successful in offsetting that loss in gaining a new following. It's only with Andromeda that we've seen a noticeable problem and people have been concerned.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Sept 17, 2017 12:41:47 GMT
You missed the point entirely. I could get into details on how Andromeda really doesn't cater to a niche group however. My point was ever since D2/ME2 there has been people slowly losing interest in bioware because of them ditching their old school RPG approach and going more action focused and expanding more into what other games do I.E. the open world approach. Even I see very few comparisons between a ME1 and a ME:A. They share the same universes, but play very differently to me. Some aspects better, some worse, and some that are just head scratchers. The idea that people have been losing interest in Bioware since ME2/DA2 doesn't really hold water. ME3 and DAI both improved in terms of release sales compared to their predecessors. Perhaps some section of the older fans have been losing interest, but Bioware appears to have been successful in offsetting that loss in gaining a new following. It's only with Andromeda that we've seen a noticeable problem and people have been concerned. The idea does hold water cause I'm one of them. I like their newer games, but they're undeniably very different than what they used to make. DA2 going hack and slash was part of the action push with that franchise, one I have harped on even in inquisition cause it serves no point at all and then I've had issues with mass effect just getting watered down since the first, ME however has just been inflicting more to itself with ME3 and how Andromeda went. 3 was a FU to the fans as en ending and we all know how Andromeda went. id rather see bioware even stay consistent before thinking they're doing well cause they've been on nothing but a roller coaster the last few games and I think it's caught up to them now.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 17, 2017 13:19:54 GMT
The idea that people have been losing interest in Bioware since ME2/DA2 doesn't really hold water. ME3 and DAI both improved in terms of release sales compared to their predecessors. Perhaps some section of the older fans have been losing interest, but Bioware appears to have been successful in offsetting that loss in gaining a new following. It's only with Andromeda that we've seen a noticeable problem and people have been concerned. The idea does hold water cause I'm one of them. I like their newer games, but they're undeniably very different than what they used to make. DA2 going hack and slash was part of the action push with that franchise, one I have harped on even in inquisition cause it serves no point at all and then I've had issues with mass effect just getting watered down since the first, ME however has just been inflicting more to itself with ME3 and how Andromeda went. 3 was a FU to the fans as en ending and we all know how Andromeda went. id rather see bioware even stay consistent before thinking they're doing well cause they've been on nothing but a roller coaster the last few games and I think it's caught up to them now. Do you know the saying "the only constant is change"? That seems to be the way Bioware chooses to stay consistent - they like trying new things, whether it's dictated by market or just asking a question of 'what if...?'.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Sept 17, 2017 13:30:30 GMT
The idea does hold water cause I'm one of them. I like their newer games, but they're undeniably very different than what they used to make. DA2 going hack and slash was part of the action push with that franchise, one I have harped on even in inquisition cause it serves no point at all and then I've had issues with mass effect just getting watered down since the first, ME however has just been inflicting more to itself with ME3 and how Andromeda went. 3 was a FU to the fans as en ending and we all know how Andromeda went. id rather see bioware even stay consistent before thinking they're doing well cause they've been on nothing but a roller coaster the last few games and I think it's caught up to them now. Do you know the saying "the only constant is change"? That seems to be the way Bioware chooses to stay consistent - they like trying new things, whether it's dictated by market or just asking a question of 'what if...?'. I understand what change is and how developers go through it. Some experiment with new things, that's not exactly the issue at hand though. Yes change is involved in a sense, but the issue is a drastic change where identity is lost and people have said this for a while now. I personally don't mind them doing Anthem, I support it. What I don't like (and we've had this argument before as an fyi) is them watering down in the RRG elements of their current franchises. Like I said to Heimdall, to me ME1 and Andromeda are very different games only recognized by being in the same universe.
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Post by Heimdall on Sept 17, 2017 13:52:04 GMT
The idea that people have been losing interest in Bioware since ME2/DA2 doesn't really hold water. ME3 and DAI both improved in terms of release sales compared to their predecessors. Perhaps some section of the older fans have been losing interest, but Bioware appears to have been successful in offsetting that loss in gaining a new following. It's only with Andromeda that we've seen a noticeable problem and people have been concerned. The idea does hold water cause I'm one of them. I like their newer games, but they're undeniably very different than what they used to make. DA2 going hack and slash was part of the action push with that franchise, one I have harped on even in inquisition cause it serves no point at all and then I've had issues with mass effect just getting watered down since the first, ME however has just been inflicting more to itself with ME3 and how Andromeda went. 3 was a FU to the fans as en ending and we all know how Andromeda went. id rather see bioware even stay consistent before thinking they're doing well cause they've been on nothing but a roller coaster the last few games and I think it's caught up to them now. Like I said, a section of the older fans losing interest with Bioware's change in direction isn't the same as there being a general loss of interest in Bioware's games, the former is inevitable no matter the changes made to some degree. Because everything we know about their sales situation says that they were only improving with each new franchise entry up until MEA. And everything we know about MEA points to a unusually troubled development process that led to its missteps. Your personal issues with the choices they've made in their games isn't reflected in the results they've gotten from those games save for MEA. That's the only point I'm making, so don't treat your view as a global one. While you may not like Bioware's new identity, it's apparent that there are many fans who do.
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Post by FireAndBlood on Sept 17, 2017 14:39:17 GMT
I've been playing BioWare games since KOTOR and and every game they have done since was completely different from the last one.
Anthem is nothing like Dragon Age, which is nothing like Mass Effect, which is nothing like Jade Empire, which is nothing like KOTOR, which is nothing like Neverwinter Nights, which is nothing like Baldur's Gate which is nothing like Shattered Steel.
BioWare constantly tries new things which is why they are still making AAA games while other studios have either shut down or are resorting to kick starter to make games that look like they were made in 1999.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 17, 2017 16:26:21 GMT
My point was ever since D2/ME2 there has been people slowly losing interest in bioware because of them ditching their old school RPG approach and going more action focused and expanding more into what other games do I.E. the open world approach. Thank god for that! Evolve or perish. Or go play Pillars of Eternity or fund something like it on Kickstarter. Every time a big company moves out of a niche, several smaller ones can move in. It's the circle of game studio life! [/quote]
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Post by ShadowAngel on Sept 17, 2017 17:18:29 GMT
My point was ever since D2/ME2 there has been people slowly losing interest in bioware because of them ditching their old school RPG approach and going more action focused and expanding more into what other games do I.E. the open world approach. Thank god for that! Evolve or perish. Or go play Pillars of Eternity or fund something like it on Kickstarter. Every time a big company moves out of a niche, several smaller ones can move in. It's the circle of game studio life! If only it were "evolving". People have said the same for various other franchises that end up decline or just dead. Regardless the point isn't so much about evolving but more so of ditching what you had for something else entirely. There's no loyalty ditching fans.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 17, 2017 17:25:02 GMT
Thank god for that! Evolve or perish. Or go play Pillars of Eternity or fund something like it on Kickstarter. Every time a big company moves out of a niche, several smaller ones can move in. It's the circle of game studio life! If only it were "evolving". People have said the same for various other franchises that end up decline or just dead. Regardless the point isn't so much about evolving but more so of ditching what you had for something else entirely. There's no loyalty ditching fans. Welcome to the real world. Expecting loyalty from a business is, at best, naive. You are absolutely correct that some pivots and shifts businesses have made have ended up being mortal mistakes. The ultimate lose-lose is abandoning your core market and failing to grow a new one. It definitely happens. Is it happening now with Bioware? That remains to be seen, but all indications to date are that it's a good move, rather than a bad one. And you want to know something surprising? Some businesses are just as disappointed at the fickleness of their customers as customers are to the shifting allegiances of the brands they love. Companies can get butthurt too! Which isn't saying anything more than when human beings are involved, butthurt is a real possibility.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 18, 2017 14:29:59 GMT
How is moving from a genre that literally put them on the map to one that's completely oversaturated "evolving" again?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 18, 2017 14:32:33 GMT
How is moving from a genre that literally put them on the map to one that's completely oversaturated "evolving" again? I'm not sure it could be claimed that one particular genre put them on the map.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 18, 2017 15:16:42 GMT
How is moving from a genre that literally put them on the map to one that's completely oversaturated "evolving" again? Who says it's oversaturated? Fans are fickle and even when one has been loyal to a brand for many years (COD, TF2, Halo), that doesn't stop one from trying something new. Particularly if that new thing offers an improvement or something unexpected (like, a really good narrative) that no one else offers yet. That said, the grind of a loot-shoot does add friction to the system. If you are a pro grinder, you have a disincentive to jump to another franchise, since time is loot, as it were. Starting over at level 1 is pretty painful if you are just a few levels short of some legendary gear you've been grinding hours and days for. But eventually, you do get all the legendary gear worth getting and you do hit the level cap, and it's at that point that grinders become free agents.
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Post by melbella on Sept 18, 2017 19:53:38 GMT
Londo voice: Sounds positively festive. (yes, he was totally being sarcastic )
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 19, 2017 6:52:40 GMT
How is moving from a genre that literally put them on the map to one that's completely oversaturated "evolving" again? Can anyone tell me what it's called to use the word 'literal' before a saying? I'm interested in this grammatical tour-de-force.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 19, 2017 14:55:59 GMT
How is moving from a genre that literally put them on the map to one that's completely oversaturated "evolving" again? Can anyone tell me what it's called to use the word 'literal' before a saying? I'm interested in this grammatical tour-de-force. I think it's called an "adverb" And no, I am not using hyperbole here. RPGs like Baldur's Gate and KOTOR are what made Bioware popular. They're games that are still talked about and enjoyed over a decade later.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 15:49:05 GMT
How is moving from a genre that literally put them on the map to one that's completely oversaturated "evolving" again? Who says it's oversaturated? Fans are fickle and even when one has been loyal to a brand for many years (COD, TF2, Halo), that doesn't stop one from trying something new. Particularly if that new thing offers an improvement or something unexpected (like, a really good narrative) that no one else offers yet. That said, the grind of a loot-shoot does add friction to the system. If you are a pro grinder, you have a disincentive to jump to another franchise, since time is loot, as it were. Starting over at level 1 is pretty painful if you are just a few levels short of some legendary gear you've been grinding hours and days for. But eventually, you do get all the legendary gear worth getting and you do hit the level cap, and it's at that point that grinders become free agents. Either that, or the gear stop being worth pursuing, because other players moved on. Grinders always have a lot of keeping up with Johnsons in them.
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Post by haolyn on Sept 19, 2017 20:31:37 GMT
Can anyone tell me what it's called to use the word 'literal' before a saying? I'm interested in this grammatical tour-de-force. I think it's called an "adverb" And no, I am not using hyperbole here. RPGs like Baldur's Gate and KOTOR are what made Bioware popular. They're games that are still talked about and enjoyed over a decade later. and yet for every old school bioware fan that played baldur's gate you have dozens more fans whose first bioware game was maybe mass effect 2, an action RPG game that has very little in common with BG. for them it's that type of game that "put bioware on the map". and so far anthem is looking a lot more similar to ME2 than BG
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 19, 2017 20:41:28 GMT
I think it's called an "adverb" And no, I am not using hyperbole here. RPGs like Baldur's Gate and KOTOR are what made Bioware popular. They're games that are still talked about and enjoyed over a decade later. and yet for every old school bioware fan that played baldur's gate you have dozens more fans whose first bioware game was maybe mass effect 2, an action RPG game that has very little in common with BG. for them it's that type of game that "put bioware on the map". and so far anthem is looking a lot more similar to ME2 than BG And would EA have bothered acquiring Bioware (and thus letting them make Mass Effect 2) without huge hits like the Baldur's Gate games and KOTOR? And sure Anthem will look more similar to ME2. A glass of iced tea will look more similar to an Arnold Palmer than it will a glass of lemonade
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 20, 2017 6:33:04 GMT
Can anyone tell me what it's called to use the word 'literal' before a saying? I'm interested in this grammatical tour-de-force. I think it's called an "adverb" And no, I am not using hyperbole here. RPGs like Baldur's Gate and KOTOR are what made Bioware popular. They're games that are still talked about and enjoyed over a decade later. Actually, I was looking for 'Oxymoron' (googled it).
And anyway, I'm not looking for a discussion on personal preferences here, I just want to point out to you (as a matter of perspective) that those games made bioware popular for you. Not for the rest of the world, per se. There's a nuance.
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Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 20, 2017 13:38:25 GMT
Jay Watamaniuk @jaywatamaniuk Lots of great new #AnthemGame art up on the walls at work. I'm humbled by the talent I get to work alongside.
InfiniteStateMachine @tremblinglight Every time I see that game in action I'm blown away and completely humbled. Amazing art. Holy shoot.
[HASH]ANT (Delete hashtag when quoting - thanks!)
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 21, 2017 4:07:15 GMT
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 22, 2017 18:14:54 GMT
Evan ⚙️ Bell @evan_prime www.bioware.com/en/careers/ We have a large number of openings at the moment. Not exclusively for Anthem either. So check it and share please. I have read that among potential applicants, women are less likely to apply for a position unless the meet all "requirements". Free advice incoming: the full list of "requirements" is rarely met by candidates consider as strong applicants. Another odd truth: folks who write job listings are not usually the same people responsible for hiring decisions. So the list of "requirements" might not be as strict as it reads in a posting. That being said: applying for a position that only loosely matches your skills/experience is likely an exercise in frustration. I think "requirements" should be replace/read as "a well qualified will have many of the following skills/attributes". So if you can check 4/5 boxes then you are probably a strong candidate. "Requirements" lists aren't often in priority order. Just because you don't meet the top bullet point doesn't mean you are a poor fit. [HASH]ANT (Delete hashtag when quoting - thanks!)
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